So lets say I wanted to make the most Bada** necromancer possible using the Pathfinder rules.
This will most likely be for Skulls and Shackles.
Thoughts? Builds? Strategies?
I've played casters quite a bit, but never played anything like a necromancer. I'm not sure I really know how.
Also, where are the rules for how many undead you can control?
The best necromancer would be, in my opinion, the Juju Oracle. You gain the ability to control 6HD of undead (as opposed to the 4HD everyone else is limited too) per level.
I'm a newly started necromancer myself, but the DM who runs the game has been playing necromancers since 3rd edition came out.
Stratagies? It's simple really. Kill things and use their reanimated corpse to kill more stuff. Screw magic items entirely, so long as you can just keep making more minions and keep your army stocked you'll get by with just your spells.
Bloody Skeletons are your friend (deathless undead for the win). They cost 50 gold per HD (as opposed to the usual 25 gold per HD) but they can take anything save a positive energy attack (and how many enemies even use positive energy?)
I'll look over my own builds and post later when I can relay more of my undead stratagies. Also, Blast Shadows.
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Not that I have any real experience here, but I've always wanted to play an Undead Lord Cleric. Alternatively I'd be down for a Juju Oracle, but I have an affinity for Clerics.
..did somebody say juju?
A versatile channeling cleric. A true necromancer should be as capable with positive energy as well as negative, and study life to better understand death... Plus it's alot less unsettling for the locals.
If you're willing to put up with some exceptional pain to get there, it's the Mystic Theurge. Your undead limit counts separately for each of your classes, so after you get over the painful hump that can add up to a lot of undead. Plus, no single class has a perfect spell list for working with the undead and the Mystic Theurge gets around that.
The biggest difficulty with the Juju Oracle is convincing your GM to allow them. Most GM's will probably laugh straight to your face after reading the description of Spirit Vessels. If it is allowed, the Spirit Vessels revelation isn't restricted to Oracle casting so it applies to both your arcane and divine casting.
The build would only become functional at the 11th level (12th if you split it with sorcerer), which is a Wizard 3 / Oracle 4 / Theurge 4. Presuming you have magical knack that's 102 hit dice of undead that you can control simultaneously. Nothing else is even remotely close to the sheer mass you can control there.
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Ya I am always looking for ways to build an undead hordelord, just look at my name!
There are 3 main ways you can play necromancers. The horde, save or die and battlefield control. You can also mix and match them to a degree. Save or die is pretty straightforward up your casting stat as high as you can, up your DCs and up your caster level. Some spells like ray of enfeeblement/exhaustion or cause fear/scare or blindness and ghoul touch are good low end spells for this. Level 4 spells are a sweet spot for this guy with bestow curse, enervation and fear. Just make sure that you take some spells from other schools in case necromancy wont work.
The Horde. My favorite :) A few good links for this particular style would be
Brewers guide to undeath. A good guide with great information but not really finished.
Army of 240 hd of undead Makes use of mystic theurge to get huge amounts of undead.
A thread about making a good undead boss. Good things in here to read about and scavenge.
@ Writer. Nice! Im adding that one to my list :)
A few things I learned about animating your horde. You get 4 'pools' (or buckets, one sucks) of undead HD. Casting animate dead, 4x level limit, no time limit. Command undead feat, level worth of HD, no time limit. Command undead spell, no HD limit, limited time limit.
Next thing, spillover. You can juggle undead around from different pools as you need to. Got to many animated dead? Release them and cast command undead on them till you can deal with it later.
Undead lord cleric is a trap, same with undead master. Kbrewster summed it up nicely.
I would advise against this archetype. The basic tradeoff is this: In exchange for your domains (you only get
one, and the one you get isn't very good) you get the Corpse Companion bucket for undead minions and gain
Command Undead as a bonus feat.This isn't worth it for a few reasons.
First, the Corpse Companion bucket isn't really all that good. It doesn't cost any components, but it takes 8
hours - and even more importantly, it's a very small bucket that can't overflow. Remember our 9th level cleric?
How most of the CR appropriate monsters were at 12-14 Hit Dice? We can't use them as Companions at all.
And if we do find something weenie enough to turn into a Corpse Companion, it'll still be too big to turn into a
Bloody Skeleton. As a general rule of thumb, a plain skeleton has a CR value equal to half its hit die... which
means the best you'll ever be able to do with this ability is pack something with a CR half your current level
(which quickly gets irrelevant.)
Undead master does not actually increase the maximum amount of undead you can control, just how much you can animate at a time. You have desecrate for this.
ALWAYS have some onyx on you. And always have a desecrate or two ready to be casted.Animating doesn't care about multiclassing. A 5th level cleric with 5 levels in wizard can control just as much as a 10th level cleric. The rest of the classes care about multiclassing tho...
Anything that boosts caster levels is paramount.
Undead minions are already created before the battle so you dont have to waste time summoning in battle like a normal summoner. You can still animate in battle and it is a good idea.
Bloody skeletons and fast zombies are good :)
Thats all I can think of right now, enjoy!
And enter this girl
196 HD limit . . . at level 15.
She's improperly counting Undead Master towards her maximum undead controlled; it only adds to maximum created. Even with that bonus, I don't see it adding up:
Caster level 15
+1 from ioun stone
+1 from tattoo
+2 from spell specialization
+3 from undead mastery
+6 from spell perfection
= caster level 28
*6 = 168 hit dice
Take away undead mastery and it drops to only 132. The math doesn't seem to be adding up here.
I didn't bother with feats or items on the mystic theurge I described earlier. If I applied the bonus from the ioun stone, the tattoo, spell specialization, and spell perfection, that'd give 174 hit dice of undead on the 11th level character. In terms of sheer numbers, the mystic theurge is well and thoroughly ahead.
Also just noticed this comment:
Not that I have any real experience here, but I've always wanted to play an Undead Lord Cleric.
Undead Lord is unfortunately a piece of garbage. The ritual length to replace a destroyed undead minion is absurdly long, and after a while it's just not worth spending the time to replace one of your undead minions. The restrictive HD cap means it won't even be a particularly strong minion. Since you're giving up an entire domain for this, it's a pretty rotten deal.
If you want an ability that lets you create non-templated mindless undead for free, then "experimental wordcaster" with the undeath word is the best way. This basically replaces your lesser animate dead spell with one that doesn't have a cost attached to it.
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Agent of the Grave prestige class. Increased caster levels for Animate Dead, Desecrate 1/day (which should be all you need and saves you a slot), some spells to avoid detection by suspicious paladins, topped off by adding necromancy spells to your spells known. All extremely invaluable for budding necromancers.
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Grabbing the Undeath Word of Power with the Experimental Spellcaster feat gives you free, instantaneous skellies and zombos.
Good advice all around.
Is human the best race as with most casters or is there something else with some sort of esoteric advantage?
Damphir maybe?
Also what about specific deities and domains would be most helpful?
Pinky. Given that the "spawners" will get a save every day to break free from your influence, eventually they will! If you've gotten them to spawn every enemy you've come across, then you have a potential TPK on your hands!
If 3rd party classes are allowed, take a look at The Death Mage.
I was playing one at one point, but traded up for a Divine Exemplar multiclass archetype for a little more survivability, as your undead minions are only on your side as long as you're around to control them.
I'll take that up with the Undeath word of power and a Graveknight template at higher levels.
Also a touch on the magic items. I'd suggest maybe a Darkskull for better buffs.
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She's improperly counting Undead Master towards her maximum undead controlled; it only adds to maximum created. Even with that bonus, I don't see it adding up:
Caster level 15
+1 from ioun stone
+1 from tattoo
+2 from spell specialization
+3 from undead mastery
+6 from spell perfection
= caster level 28
*6 = 168 hit dice
Take away undead mastery and it drops to only 132. The math doesn't seem to be adding up here.
I didn't bother with feats or items on the mystic theurge I described earlier. If I applied the bonus from the ioun stone, the tattoo, spell specialization, and spell perfection, that'd give 174 hit dice of undead on the 11th level character. In terms of sheer numbers, the mystic theurge is well and thoroughly ahead.
Sadly, you can't get Spell Perfection until 15th level (prereqs include 15 ranks in Spellcraft) (also I'm not sure how you'd get +6 from that, when it's supposed to just double the numeric effects?). At 11th level it might look more like
WizardCL 7
+1 orange prism
+1 from tattoo (I don't know what tattoo this is, but Varisian Tattoo is an old 3.5 feat, so your GM may not allow it)
+2 from Spell Specialization
= CL 11
11*4=44
Oracle
CL 8
+1 orange prism
+1 from tattoo
+2 from Spell Specialization (I don't know if you can apply this to the same spell in different classes, but as it fits the flavor of mystic theurge I'll leave it in)
= CL 12
12*4=48
so 44 wizard + 48 oracle + 7 Command Undead = 99 HD maximum
At 15th level
Wizard
CL 11
+1 orange prism
+1 from tattoo
+2 from Spell Specialization
+2 from Spell Perfection (it just doubles the numeric effects, not octuples, I think)
= CL 17
17*4=68
Oracle
CL 12
+1 orange prism
+1 from tattoo
+2 from Spell Specialization
+2 from Spell Perfection (you got combined spells (3rd) a few levels ago, so even if you can't apply this feat to the same spell in a different class, you can just move the spell to which this feat applies to a 4th-level slot in your other class)
= CL 18
18*4=72
so 68 wizard + 72 oracle + 7 Command Undead = 147 HD
I added the necromancer and oracle levels 3+4=7 due to Command Undead (which don't get multiplied as they are in a separate bucket). This isn't as crazy as 240 HD, but hopefully closer to the rules with respect to Undead Master. What would you even do with all those bloody skeletons anyways.
Take the Experimental Spellcaster feat and use the, Undeath Word of Power
(Cleric - level 2, Wizard - level 3)
You can have a much more economical/expendable horde. This way you can have a much more reasonable group of undead following you, but if you don't need them anymore, you can just destroy them. You can raise aurochs as flaming aurochs, have them trample into a group of enemies only to explode like some sort of necromantic siege weapon.
I believe I found an error. Spell Perfection should double Mage's Tattoo as well. This means that Spell Perfection adds +3, not +2.
CL 11 Wizard: 18*4 = 72
+
CL 12 Oracle: 19*4 = 76
+7 Command Undead
Resulting in a total of 155 HD of undead.
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Gravewalker Witch is easily my favorite Necromancer. It gets both Command Undead and Animate on its spell list and their lowest level (which helps with Animate Dead), which is excellent. Witches also get Blood Money for Animate Dead on the cheap. The only "must have" necromancer spell its missing is Desecrate and you can just get a Voidstick for only 2,500 gp to cover that. It also gets a useful unlimited use Command Undead Su ability at first level. Also, its 8th level is just plain fantastic. Limitless Magic Jar on your undead minions? Where do I sign in my own blood?
Seriously... Gravewalker Witch.
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As far as that Oracle is concerned, I think they may be getting the HD controlled in a different way. If you only cast Animate Dead -once- any excess undead created by that single casting actually stay under your control as long as you don't cast animate dead again. In 3.5e, this is how clerics managed to get massive legions of undead via the deathbound domain power; they would pump up the amount of undead they could animate(via deathbound domain and other things like that) and when they cast animate dead they would animate far more then they control, however, the "excess" that they animated would still fall under their command as long as they didn't cast animate dead again until their undead supply was depleted enough that they would not lose control of anything by casting it another time. With that Oracle, they MAY be doing the same thing.Of course, I am too lazy to do the math right now, but with all the undead they will be animating with the boosts they have, it should not be hard to produce those numbers with a single animate dead casting. However, the only downside to this method is that, again, you lose a large chunk of your army as soon as you cast animate dead again, unless you cast it when your undead army has been utterly depleted....
I am fairly new to necromancers myself; I have always wanted to toy with them, but have never had much opportunity (Our primary DM for a long time was a bit of a prude).
Now that I'm branching into other groups however, we are a lot more open. When I say a lot, I do mean A LOT. We've often taken classes from 3.5 and converted them over, simply because at the time they did not have the class for Pathfinder, such as playing a Duskblade until they came out with the Magus and such. One player we have LOVES the class Healer from D&D Minis. It's got pretty much zero combat ability, but good lordy they keep the party alive.
My favorite Necromancer class in these regards (IF your DM is willing to let you convert from 3.5 over to Pathfinder) is the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror.
Neceros has already done it if you look in Pathfinder database, or you can tweak it of your own volition. But let's face it, if you really want the Horde Style this is a BRILLIANT way. Dread Necromancer level + your charisma bonus HD worth of creatures PER LEVEL. Seriously, that's awesome (and can break a campaign if you don't have the right DM, so choose carefully)
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Late game the best necromancer is a mystic theurge because they have two caster levels to add up their total HD with
Ideally you'll look like tattooed sorcerer 1 or false priest sorcerer (depending on if you want your cheaper thralls to be free or if you want two extra HD) /oracle 9/mystic theurge 10
Be sure to pick a race with a second level spell as a spell like ability, or convince your DM to let you take the 3.5 feat precocious apprentice
One really useful feat is the feat that lets you take one word of power spell and add it to your spells know
This lets you standard action cast animate dead at one spell level lower without counting variant zombies as double.
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I have stumbled onto a nifty little chain of feats that I have done with my Gestalt Cleric/inquisitor, But I dont see why you cant do with a normal cleric or wizard:
Feat 1. Spell Focus Necromancy
Feat 2. Skeleton Summoner(not to important but when there are no bodies around its very convenient, can be excluded)
Feat 3. Charnel Soldiers(EDITED)
With: -Outflank(teamwork) for +4 on all flank bonuses
-Precise strike(teamwork) (1d6 extra damage for all flanked attacks)
-Escape route9teamwork) (no AOO's if moving through spaces your allies threaten)
Where is Charnel Warriors from?
My mistake I meant to say
Charnel Soldiers from
Pathfinder Player Companion: Cohorts and Companions © 2015
As a general rule our group doesn't spend money on suppliments like that so we miss a lot. This seems like a feat worth considering.
I stumbled upon this feat by accident and I think it has some good implications, especially with a summon monster spell, you could technically summon some skeletons around an enemy for that sweet flank bonus.
Otherwise, and undead lord would benefit from this feat as well.
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Feat 3. Charnel Soldiers(EDITED)
With: -Outflank(teamwork) for +4 on all flank bonuses
-Precise strike(teamwork) (1d6 extra damage for all flanked attacks)
-Escape route9teamwork) (no AOO's if moving through spaces your allies threaten)
Oh dear god, that is an AWESOME feat for a hordemaster style necromancer!
I mean, holy hell. You're going to have tons of undead anyway, and having them all mob the same target means everybody is basically going to be getting flanking...
Feat 3. Charnel Soldiers(EDITED)
With: -Outflank(teamwork) for +4 on all flank bonuses
-Precise strike(teamwork) (1d6 extra damage for all flanked attacks)
-Escape route9teamwork) (no AOO's if moving through spaces your allies threaten)Oh dear god, that is an AWESOME feat for a hordemaster style necromancer!
I mean, holy hell. You're going to have tons of undead anyway, and having them all mob the same target means everybody is basically going to be getting flanking...
ISN'T IT?
I mean, if you are going to have a lot of skellys around, why not pump up their abilities to ALL of them?
I'll have to delve into how each teamwork feat will interact when you have a massive army that benefits from having this feat.
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I'll have to delve into how each teamwork feat will interact when you have a massive army that benefits from having this feat.
You are willing to use your allies as shields to ward off attacks aimed at you.
Benefit(s): Whenever you are the target of a melee or ranged attack and are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you can initiate this feat to skillfully pull the abettor into harm's way or dodge behind the abettor as an immediate action.
You gain cover against that attack (and only that attack). If the attack misses you but would have hit you if not for the cover bonus to your armor class, the abettor becomes the target of the attack and the attacker must make a new attack roll (with all the same modifiers) against the abettor's armor class.
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Note that the prereqs are that when you are the target of an attack, and are adjacent to someone else with the feat, then you can swap them in for cover and if it would have hit you they have to make a new attack roll on the new target.
Nowhere does it say that there is any limit to the number of times you can do this.
If your entire horde has the feat automatically, then you can just have them swap each other out to migrate damage to the ones in the back while keeping the ones up front alive and well.
Spread the damage out so that no one single undead takes enough to be destroyed, and then simply throw some inflicts on the damaged ones after combat to heal them back up.
It effectively turns your horde into a swarm with a single massive HP pool.
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I'll have to delve into how each teamwork feat will interact when you have a massive army that benefits from having this feat.You are willing to use your allies as shields to ward off attacks aimed at you.
Benefit(s): Whenever you are the target of a melee or ranged attack and are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you can initiate this feat to skillfully pull the abettor into harm's way or dodge behind the abettor as an immediate action.
You gain cover against that attack (and only that attack). If the attack misses you but would have hit you if not for the cover bonus to your armor class, the abettor becomes the target of the attack and the attacker must make a new attack roll (with all the same modifiers) against the abettor's armor class.
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Note that the prereqs are that when you are the target of an attack, and are adjacent to someone else with the feat, then you can swap them in for cover and if it would have hit you they have to make a new attack roll on the new target.
Nowhere does it say that there is any limit to the number of times you can do this.
If your entire horde has the feat automatically, then you can just have them swap each other out to migrate damage to the ones in the back while keeping the ones up front alive and well.
Spread the damage out so that no one single undead takes enough to be destroyed, and then simply throw some inflicts on the damaged ones after combat to heal them back up.
It effectively turns your horde into a swarm with a single massive HP pool.
Its... like a beautiful bloody skeleton conga line!
Let the Horde die. With Bloody they will regenerate.
Every one that goes down is a reduction in your defenses and offensive capability for that fight.
Bloody skeletons will regenerate on their own, so if you have enough to where you can send the damage to a new target each time, they may regenerate fully before you cycle back to them.
Even if it doesn't get to that, the attacker has to make a new attack roll (with the same bonuses) every single time they would have otherwise hit, which means that with every hop down the line is another (fairly large) chance that they will roll a 1 or otherwise miss outright, completely negating the damage.
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Let the Horde die. With Bloody they will regenerate.Every one that goes down is a reduction in your defenses and offensive capability for that fight.
Bloody skeletons will regenerate on their own, so if you have enough to where you can send the damage to a new target each time, they may regenerate fully before you cycle back to them.
Even if it doesn't get to that, the attacker has to make a new attack roll (with the same bonuses) every single time they would have otherwise hit, which means that with every hop down the line is another (fairly large) chance that they will roll a 1 or otherwise miss outright, completely negating the damage.
this is of course ignoring the biggest bonus
YOU can take this feat and then you've added your hoard's HP to your own
I think it's worth noting the white necromancer class put out by Kobold Press. Lots of fun and flavor if the gm will allow and will heavily consider roleplay implications. No undead Cap has been brought up several times on several boards. I'd like to point out that that mindless undead can be only animated for short term goals and intelligent undead will do longer term service, however they may ask for something in return. What does an undead want? Any gm out there thinking adventure hook?
I have a new and enterprising gm. I usually gm. I'm getting a break. Yay!!! We carefully went over the concept of a Ustalavian lesser noble dhampir Pharasmian white necromancer. Taken that in Rule of Fear, it mentions that there is a schism belief of the church of Pharasma called the Pharasmian Penitence that believes in purification through suffering (self-flaggelation being a primary ingredient), we worked out a believable concept for animating corpses in the name of something not evil. It's based on the same concept that the Pharasmian Penitence believes, we all need a little purifying before we pass on before judgement before the Lady of Graves. Now we have a philosophical/theological reason that works with the class! My gm is dreaming up ideas to use as "payments" for future intelligent undead to need for longer service. As worrisome as the class looked at first glance, it hasn't been. Undead die to quickly. There is also only so many enemies you can take down if you aren't evil. There is also the material component cost issue and availability. Want to slow the roll of the necromancer GM's? Limit how often the player can get his hands on those costly components! Finally, you are a good or neutral guy with undead. You need to go city-side for adventure, supplies, etc. You understand the very common issue of people attacking undead on sight. What to do? Where to hide them? Do they get found? What happens then? Like I said, it's a lot of fun. It's not nearly as powerful as it looks once roleplay is taken into affect. Most GM's I know wince at evil campaigns. I love them. A lot of the time, players get shot down because the gm either doesn't want evil characters or has little material to gm through that caters to it. Hell's Vengeance and Way of the Wicked are the only published campaigns that cater to evil. That's two in forty years of this game being around in one form or another. Best necromancer? There's a lot of ways to make a badass undead building near-necrophiliac. I love them all. Most likely to play one? When you can't be evil. Try looking at the white necromancer. Talk to your gm. Give it a whirl. If you don't like it, make a new character. If your gm disagrees with it, he can always kill the character. Lol! Have fun!
Oh, and Undead Master isn't a trap anymore with a white necromancer. Yay for that!
That all being said, all of those legitimate builds above (I stress the good ones that weren't debunked are ALL badass. They all do a little bit different things. Some are more versatile spellcasteds. Some control more undead. Some can actually heal their undead. Before playing a concept you must ask yourself? What do I want this character to be best at? Juju Oracle and Agent of the Grave gets the most undead. Can they heal their minions. Yes. Are they incredibly versatile spellcasters? No. Is the highest amount of undead controlled what you want if that means sacrificing versatility? Ask yourself those questions before you create. I promise, you can't have it all.