There is not an real answer for this question. The reason is because although certain classes appeal to different players, classes blossom into their own at different levels. Arcane casters are late game blossomers. Divine casters blossom a few levels earlier. Most of the rest of the classes see a more steady progression over time.
Marc Radle wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree.
For example, how many of those Tier 1's and 2's wouldn't make to high enough levels to "come into their own" without the aid of their teammates with lower tier ratings? In over three decades of gaming, I've seen only two things make a party routinely succeed: teamwork and diverse role coverage. Personally, I gravitate to casters. Is that all I play? No. Do I attempt to make the most badass, survivable character that I'm creating within legal limits? Hell yes. My preference to playing casters is because I'm the most experienced player in my gaming circles and therefore generally make the best use of them with the least amount of time in a combat turn. The team works better if I'm that role. Most often, I also face or share facing for the group because I'm very outgoing in real life. That all being said, melee, ranged, arcane, and divine must be covered or you will not usually succeed as a whole team. The diversity of the party members is not only key, its the essence of the game. What's the tier level for teamwork?
How do you imbue a weapon with an ingested drug? Am I missing something? If you can get around the ingested to make it injury I'm hooked! Please do tell.
So the guide is out now and my players have begun the first book. Here's what they did: A league of extraordinary gentleman- of sorts. Sort of a Marvel/DC/Whatever mash up. One guy is playing a brute archetype vigilante mixed with a scaleheart skinwalker race for a Hulk/Killer Croc hybrid. Another started with a human medium as John Constantine, died, and made a human flowing monk as Goku. Another player made the Tick as a vanilla brawler. Another player started with a dark half human psychic as Jean Grey/Phoenix, died and made Sherlock Holmes as a rogue/investigator going Sleepless Detective, another player made a cleric named Charles Xavier (the similarities end there, except a bald head, and that player has received much grief because of it), another player made the Scarlet Witch from the witch class. Nice spin was that he went tiefling. Finally, my last player went wizard as Dr. Strange. It's been a lot of fun. They just ended their first book. They have never super heroes out like this and they are really enjoying it.
My wife and I play that campaign too!!!
We have one that my gaming group talks about all the time. The "Unlikely Heroes". So far, we have a thrash metal troll bard, a goblin dog riding female goblin cavalier, and a flumph oath against corruption paladin as solid choices. Once the other three players have solidified their choices we are going to give it a whirl...
In 30 years of gaming I watched a large number of different players slowly develop. I have purposely kept a widely diverse group of personalities at the table when I could. Right brained, creative types and left brain, statistics oriented types have played hand-in-hand with one another and shown each other how to grow into a more complete players that blend together both aspects of the game. Those aspects being the creative storytelling and the hard math. It takes time, by that I mean years, for most players to develop the weaker side of their repertoire. Very few are naturals at birth. It is human to gravitate to and enjoy our strengths and avoid our weakness. It is no different at the table. Our math-savvy types tend to gravitate to combat and pushing the envelope with character builds while the my creative, literature and art lovers, tend toward more social interactions and story. However, together they learn from one another. I think both aspects are good. I see rollplayer vs. roleplayer as merely a journey down two roads that meet at the same destination.
Delivery is everything. My father once said you can tell a woman her face could stop a clock or her face could stop time. You get two different results. I listened to his advice and went into sales.
It is a bad ass class. I'm playing one now. It's real name is white necromancer.
Totally agree with you except for the cat > puppies comment. I'm a cat = dog person. I'm considered strange by all my friends for that. I'm ok with me though. :)
James Jacobs wrote:
I completely understand. That is an excellent policy to have. Thank you for your response. I'll homebrew that myself for my player who wants to play it as a more "Hulk" class as a barbarian archetype as you suggested.
James Jacobs wrote:
To begin with, I'm sorry about the poor grammar to begin with in the earlier submission. I was a bit rushed. What I should of asked was, as the creative director, what is your opinion of the archetype? Am I alone? Have you heard any other negative feedback yet? In my poorly worded question earlier, I meant to say does an archetype ever get changed up a bit if there is a good bit of legitimate feedback that pushes for it? With that class and archetype in mind, what would you do to make it like what it appears to be modeled after?
I really enjoyed Ultimate Intrigue but was let down by the Brute archetype. I've always loved the "tortured beast within" concept of Mr. Hyde and The Hulk. What happened with that archetype? A lot of it was cool but I felt is missed out on enhanced inanimate object damage, had an incredibly will save to resist the change, missed out on high leap bonuses, was very easy to kill with only 1d8 hit points (derived from class, I know), and had a really low ac. Have thought about beefing it up with some errata?
Jay707, in many circles of gamers, a "rules lawyer" argues only when it serves their purposes. They never, or almost never, argue against themselves or other pcs unless the game has turned pvp. Rules lawyering has always been, in my humble opinion an anti-gm issue. It's also helpful, if you were the gm and if you have this at the table to do one of two things, address it and/or learn the rules better than the resident rules lawyer. That all being said, what Quantum Steve said above is the most important and useful advice. Our opinions are s%~+ in comparison to the group you game with.
In Blood of the Night it reads, "Most vampires are evil, but like any race that doesn't have the evil subtype, there is always a slim chance for redemption. Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of. Most commonly they are freed spawn, creatures now balking in horror at acts they perpetrated while dominated by their masters, with living memories fresh in their minds. Some vampires shift alignment to neutral over many hundreds of years as they tire of hunting and being hunted, moderating their evil by curtailing their behavior rather than making a philosophical choice. A good vampire is so rare as to be almost nonexistent. Its very nature draws it to feast on living intelligent creatures. The impossibly rare good vampire is trusted by no one and persecuted by all-mortal and vampire alike. Other vampires despise it out of jealousy or fear. No mortal will ever be convinced of its goodness, always sleeping behind locked chamber doors and with holy symbols in hand. Both within an adventuring party and out in the world, playing a good vampire character is fraught with trials. Vampires of all types may be lawful, neutral, or chaotic. As they are essentially immortal and can reinvent their identities over the centuries, a vampire is rarely bound to one alignment all its life."
That should help with one set of undead...
How does a spell become "too" useless? I can't think of any useless spells. Inappropriate? Yes. Underpowered versus some of it's peers? Yes. Useless? Not really. Too useless? Is that like a transmute rock to rock spell? I'm not trying to be that bad of a grammar Nazi but there may be a link between your grammar skills and this lack of understanding the rules. Or better yet, in explaining how you have been possibly cheated by your GM.
Are you unable to write in fluent English sentences due to poor grammar or citizenship outside of America/UK? I need to know before I respond to that quote above so that I know what level of vocabulary to use.
Fair enough. I'll bite. Say, Will DC = 10 + 1/2 item caster level + ability modifier to do non-lethal instead of lethal? However, even with success I'd make the paladin atone for beating his comrades to unconsciousness without being provoked to defend himself against his stalwart companions. That should make him want to get rid of that sword.
I agree. The Prince of Darkness himself! A glorious victory against all those bible-thumping, "that game is Satanic" people out there that Frog God Games finally put that dude in print. However, I think Frog God Games should have come to the table with a lot more than they did.
I think you should take a long look at 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Faiths and Pantheons. They break down the gods, give example avatar stats, and show how to build them. I've used it a few times myself and it's logical and balanced...for gods. I ran a few epic level 3rd and 3.5 edition campaigns where the pcs could hold their ground against demi-gods and lesser deities' avatars. Which brings up a good point that I think should be addressed, if it hasn't been already. This gave players and gms alike the idea of the scope of those entities. At first glance, "stating the gods" would give everyone the idea that this would lead to deicide and general world chaos. However, to my recollection, these statistics given were for only the AVATARS of said deities. Physical manifestations. Truly killing a god was impossible for mortal and, typically, fellow deity alike unless under special circumstances, a.k.a plot devices. You may be able to defeat the avatar, but that didn't kill the deity. It just pissed it off. In addition, deities are loathe to take a heavy handed direct manifestation in the lives of mortals lest their rival deities do the same to "even the score" so to speak. Therefore, avatar appearances are rare indeed. Finally, entering the godly home plane of a deity is impossible unless the god allowed such an action, barring even other deities if he or she wishes. That all being said, I think using that kind of framework presented in Faiths and Pantheons and using what I mentioned as an understanding of sublime politics/physiology should work nicely. I wish I had the time. Sorry I don't.
Good point. Next time we use save or die affect successfully on a dragon I'm going to bring that up.
I'd say yes and no. Yes to your first question, but only sometimes. A definite no to your example. One immediate and one swift per turn. As long as there is not a ruling otherwise (usually there is i.e. nauseated), then i would allow action slow down, particularly in movement-oriented decision-making and time economy.
That all being said, all of those legitimate builds above (I stress the good ones that weren't debunked are ALL badass. They all do a little bit different things. Some are more versatile spellcasteds. Some control more undead. Some can actually heal their undead. Before playing a concept you must ask yourself? What do I want this character to be best at? Juju Oracle and Agent of the Grave gets the most undead. Can they heal their minions. Yes. Are they incredibly versatile spellcasters? No. Is the highest amount of undead controlled what you want if that means sacrificing versatility? Ask yourself those questions before you create. I promise, you can't have it all.
I have a new and enterprising gm. I usually gm. I'm getting a break. Yay!!! We carefully went over the concept of a Ustalavian lesser noble dhampir Pharasmian white necromancer. Taken that in Rule of Fear, it mentions that there is a schism belief of the church of Pharasma called the Pharasmian Penitence that believes in purification through suffering (self-flaggelation being a primary ingredient), we worked out a believable concept for animating corpses in the name of something not evil. It's based on the same concept that the Pharasmian Penitence believes, we all need a little purifying before we pass on before judgement before the Lady of Graves. Now we have a philosophical/theological reason that works with the class! My gm is dreaming up ideas to use as "payments" for future intelligent undead to need for longer service. As worrisome as the class looked at first glance, it hasn't been. Undead die to quickly. There is also only so many enemies you can take down if you aren't evil. There is also the material component cost issue and availability. Want to slow the roll of the necromancer GM's? Limit how often the player can get his hands on those costly components! Finally, you are a good or neutral guy with undead. You need to go city-side for adventure, supplies, etc. You understand the very common issue of people attacking undead on sight. What to do? Where to hide them? Do they get found? What happens then? Like I said, it's a lot of fun. It's not nearly as powerful as it looks once roleplay is taken into affect. Most GM's I know wince at evil campaigns. I love them. A lot of the time, players get shot down because the gm either doesn't want evil characters or has little material to gm through that caters to it. Hell's Vengeance and Way of the Wicked are the only published campaigns that cater to evil. That's two in forty years of this game being around in one form or another. Best necromancer? There's a lot of ways to make a badass undead building near-necrophiliac. I love them all. Most likely to play one? When you can't be evil. Try looking at the white necromancer. Talk to your gm. Give it a whirl. If you don't like it, make a new character. If your gm disagrees with it, he can always kill the character. Lol! Have fun!
I think it's worth noting the white necromancer class put out by Kobold Press. Lots of fun and flavor if the gm will allow and will heavily consider roleplay implications. No undead Cap has been brought up several times on several boards. I'd like to point out that that mindless undead can be only animated for short term goals and intelligent undead will do longer term service, however they may ask for something in return. What does an undead want? Any gm out there thinking adventure hook?
Amen to that!!!
However, that all being said, this is the best story of anti-bullying I have. During the first campaign that our new gamers played in, my wife was running an evil-aligned campaign that had been running for about six months before the new guys joined. They were very green. No table top experience at all. I was playing an evil cleric dedicated to the Dark Tapestry and my long-time buddy was playing an evil necromancy-specialized wizard who was focused on blood spells and becoming a vampire. He and I alone were a force to be reckoned with. The new players were introduced. One of them played a catfolk ninja that made an overly dramatic entrance in the middle of a very dangerous dungeon crawl. The two main characters reacted appropriately to this new "threat". We rolled initiative and killed him. The wizard brought him back as a mummy. The new player was given the option by the gm to make a new pc or roleplay his new "life" as an undead servant of my buddy's character. He chose the latter. I was impressed by his decision. Most people wouldn't have gone that route. About three months later, my cleric, ever the most chaotic character in the party, cast true resurrection on catfolk mummy in secret while his "master" slept. With his mortality restored, he stealthily crept into the wizard's bedroom and coup de graced him in his sleep. Epic! That should of stopped the bullying. Hell, it wasn't even bullying at that point. However, because that new player stood up for themselves, it created even more animosity. That animosity carried through to two more campaigns run by me and was purely one-sided. If you are a GM, and you have a group bully that is ruining your fun as a gm and your other players fun as a group, address the situation. If that doesn't work, try again. rinse and repeat a few more times. If all that fails, save your group and kick the bully out. A lot of the time, discussion along with group and individual reaction will cancel out the bully. "Oh, you are the resident badass and a bully? Cool. There are three of us now that hate you on and off the table and since your pc is more powerful than ours collectively, we will play dirty. Like a coup de grace in your sleep...