Making a necromancer

[Question]

If i understand this correctly, the best option is to take the undead lord cleric archetype?

I see several problems with this :

-Inability to spontaneously convert cure spells is a big drawback when trying to keep party members alive, in comparison inflict is useless except for healing your undead minions

-The reliance on a steady supply of onyx for animating undead

-Undead minion is basically a gimped animal companion without feats

-An army of undead can get pretty unwieldy, and they do nothing unless properly equipped (or are dragon skeletons or something)

[HaraldKlak]

I love the Gravewalker witch for necromancers.

You get the animate dead spells at the same spell levels as a cleric.
To reduce expenses you can get the False Focus feat, and the Blood Money spell.

[Blakmane]

The problems you have raised are universal to all necromancers, not specifically undead lord clerics. It's why they are considered flavourful, not optimal, choices. Losing spontaneous cure is meaningless as you shouldn't be healing in battle anyway: a CLW wand works fine for that. Negative energy clerics gain a huge advantage over their counterparts because they can deal AOE damage with some minion healing as a nice extra.

JuJu Oracles also make fantastic non-evil necromancers, by the way.

[Question]

Not even talking about optimal choices, but they seem like very poor choices for PCs unless your campaign is specifically setup to accomodate one.

Even a summoner's eidolon or a druid's animal companion seems preferable to having undead minions with all the drawbacks.

[Zog of Deadwood]

First, the "best" option largely depends on what kind of game your GM is running. If the PCs are expected to be the heroes (or at least the good guys) then any necromancer-type archetypes may be problematic, but undead lords will be the very most troublesome. It doesn't much matter how powerful an option is mechanically if it shreds the storyline. If the PCs are expected to be villains or a groups of antiheroes, this is much less of an issue. But even if there are no paladins or good-aligned clerics in a party, expecting NPCs in most settings not to react poorly to a minion master is unrealistic.

Of course, there are other valid approaches to go with necromancers other than minion masters. Necromancers usually have curses, fear spells, and lots of save-or-dies. If they max their spell save DCs they are good at mass debuffs and also at affecting single foes.

All that said, there are ways around several of the problems you mention. For instance, an arcane necromancer could take False Focus, allowing animation of low level undead for free. A clerical necromancer could take Versatile Channeler, gaining the ability to channel both negative and positive energy.

As for the unwieldiness of an undead army, you seldom want one of those as a PC anyway. In most circumstances, you're better off with a few powerful undead with their accompanying abilities than to have a bunch of moogs that can probably be wiped out with one fireball or use of Channel Positive Energy.

Incidentally, don't forget about templates when creating undead. Putting the Bloody template on your skeletions can really cut down on your long-term animation costs.

[Mirrel the Marvelous]

Another thing about Templates is that they stack! A bunch of Bloody Burning Skeletons equals suicide troops that come back to (un)life an hour later.

Another thing about Undead Lords is they have the Undead Subdomain, and therefore the Death's Kiss ability. So you can use your Inflict spells to heal your living party members after all.

[Question]

I'm starting a evil campaign, so i was thinking of necromancer. But the onyx cost was a huge turnoff when i could do the same thing for free with summon spells or an animal companion/eidolon (both of which are more powerful than the undead lord's undead minion).

Also the problem i'm seeing with animating undead is that you need to kill a monster first to animate it, while you could summon something anytime, anywhere. I took a look at the create undead spell, but i don't understand how it works...at level 11 you can create a 2hd ghoul that literally dies in one hit from a CR11 encounter. How is this useful? Everything on that list gets one shotted by a CR equivalent encounter.

None of the debuffs require you to be a necromancer to use them, and taking feats to try and make up for the inbuilt shortcomings (like channeling the vastly inferior form of energy) seems like an expensive band aid.

[Zog of Deadwood]

Question wrote:

I'm starting a evil campaign, so i was thinking of necromancer. But the onyx cost was a huge turnoff when i could do the same thing for free with summon spells or an animal companion/eidolon (both of which are more powerful than the undead lord's undead minion).

Also the problem i'm seeing with animating undead is that you need to kill a monster first to animate it, while you could summon something anytime, anywhere. I took a look at the create undead spell, but i don't understand how it works...at level 11 you can create a 2hd ghoul that literally dies in one hit from a CR11 encounter. How is this useful? Everything on that list gets one shotted by a CR equivalent encounter.

None of the debuffs require you to be a necromancer to use them, and taking feats to try and make up for the inbuilt shortcomings (like channeling the vastly inferior form of energy) seems like an expensive band aid.

You are right that undead are not the strongest combat minions a PC can have. That's not really their only role, though. Their disposability is not a bug; it's a feature. If an animal companion dies, the ranger or druid is screwed until they get another. Not so if your juju zombie goes down. Cast a spell and you're good. This allows you to use undead in ways you would never use more precious commodities. Trap detectors, trap disarmers, scouts (intelligent undead only, of course), distractions, and renewable flanking bonuses. All this, and they are created out of combat. That's the really vital part. Summoned monsters can be great in combat, but take a full round action to bring in to a melee. Those shadows of yours were around before the fight even started and some of them may be around after. Their numbers may even have increased. Also, you can heal your allies during combat with a negative channel, if you want, and unlike other clerics you don't have to take the Selective Channel feat to avoid healing your enemies at the same time, except in those rare instances you're fighting other undead. In those instances you have other options anyway.

[Question]

Spending actual money to create undead that gets one shotted by appropriate CR encounters does not seem like a very good way to spend your money...

[Mirrel the Marvelous]

I use the Soul Gems that my Summoned Cacodaemon creates to bypass the associated costs.

Question (above) also suggested the False Focus Feat and the Blood Money Spell as ways of negating the cost.

[TheSideKick]

if you allow 3.5 material for your games, i would suggest the necrotic cyst feat from libris mortis. best feat ever for a necromancer, it gives you some serious power to make up for your low end offense.

[Psion-Psycho]

Check out the False Focus feat and the archetype Cruoromancer for wizards. The trick to playing a minion necro is not to have horde of undead with u at all times but to have 2-4 very big things that ur enemy possessed to send back at them. The last time i did this was with Storm Giants the BBEG had guarding his area. Those things hit hard and the BBEG and every thing up to him did not like what i did.

[Question]

False focus doesn't work if you are a straight cleric necromancer though. It's also useless for anything except using 1 hd undead to spring traps (which is easily done with summon monster 1).

Thanks, i will try to take a look at necrotic cyst.

I wanted to make a necromancer that could have a strong undead minion following around and create additional undead when necessary, but that doesn't seem possible under the current rules (at least not without throwing a ton of money down the drain).

Still really dissapointed that a level 11 necromancer can only create 2HD undead...

[Psion-Psycho]

Check out Unearthed Arcana's Necromancer variant for wizard. It might be up ur alley especially when combined with the Cruoromancer archetype.

The following is were u can find the variant:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necr omancerVariants

[Question]

Oh thanks. Does the undead minion gain feats? And does it have any proficiencies? Easiest way to do i think would be to take a PF human warrior and apply the skeleton template to it, and have it gain HD as appropriate.

Im guessing it gets the +4 bonus to str/dex from enhanced undead as well?

Alternatively, can the dread necromancer class from 3.5 be modified for pathfinder?

[Krico]

I would like to point out something. While it's true that you can just use the base undead, that's very boring and doesn't really support what I understand the intention of the spell is.

While unintelligent undead may not be able to retain spellcasting abilities, who says you can't animate that level 10 fighter the party just killed, applying a zombie or skeleton archtype? ANY strength based undead could be nasty. I'm a level 15 cleric or oracle that can channel energy (since a couple of the revelations allow that). I've saved up my money and managed to turn myself into a lich. Between command undead, and my spells, I have 3 level 13 bloody skeleton fighter minions protecting me. Also, I have mass spells that heal them and me, and hurt you. God help you.

Edit: So I went back and looked at it, and realized those types don't retain feats and such.

Then I looked at what you could create at higher levels. Read the description of Juju zombies.

"A juju zombie is an animated corpse of a creature, created to serve as an undead minion, that retains the skills and abilities it possessed in life."

I would take that to mean that you've essentially created a version of the original creature that simply gained the undead subtype.

Edit 2: I just looked at the template. It's better.

Alignment: Evil aligned. Ethics alignment appears to remain unchanged.

+3 nat armor.

Hit dice change to d8s and use charisma score instead of con for hit points

Channel resistance +4 (sucks for controlling them with channel, but YOLO!), DR 5/magic and slashing (10 if it's got at least 11 hit dice)

Flying maneuverability is clumsy, otherwise movement is unchanged.

Attacks are unchanged except it gains a slam attack as if it where a size category larger.

Gains +4 Str and +2 dex, loses con score, fort save, any any abilities based off of con.

Gains improved initiative and toughness as bonus feats.

+8 racial bonus to climb checks.

That's it. It appears to retain all class abilities not based off of con, all ability scores besides con, all feats, spells etc. As an intelligent undead they'll be hard to control via channel, but the ones created from the spell should be fine.

[Question]

Are you referring to animate undead, or create undead?

[HaraldKlak]

Question wrote:

False focus doesn't work if you are a straight cleric necromancer though. It's also useless for anything except using 1 hd undead to spring traps (which is easily done with summon monster 1).

Thanks, i will try to take a look at necrotic cyst.

I wanted to make a necromancer that could have a strong undead minion following around and create additional undead when necessary, but that doesn't seem possible under the current rules (at least not without throwing a ton of money down the drain).

Still really dissapointed that a level 11 necromancer can only create 2HD undead...

False focus can create free undeads up to 4 HD.

While they are going to be weak, it can actually work quite well. Low HD Burning Skeletons are awesome. Each round adjacent enemies take 1d6 fire damage, and attacking them unarmed or with natural attacks deal 1d6 fire damage as well. No save for half. Racking up 10 of these can make a significant impact on an encounter. They cannot simply be ignored due to the ongoing damage from their aura, and every attack on them is one less on the PCs.

For a strong undead minion, you need a creature with as high as possible str and some natural attacks. Making it into a bloody skeletons make it a one time expense.

Why can a lvl 11 necromancer only create 2HD undead? In an aura of desecrate the necromancer is able to animate a 44 HD creature. Granted, you need at creature with that many racial hit dice, but even a 22 HD like a Bloody Ancient Black Dragon Skeleton is going to be pretty awesome at lvl 11, for the meager sum of 1100 gp.

[Krico]

Question wrote:

Are you referring to animate undead, or create undead?

Animate undead, and it'ls lesser version are very meh. The creatures you can create with them are ok for low levels, but really peter off. A few of the examples of creatures you can create with create undead starting at 11 however...see juju zombie above. Since you can only control the more powerful undead via channel (looked harder at create undead and saw that restriction) or actually convincing them to work with you, they'll be harder to control. That said...holy crap the possibilities.

[Question]

Oops, i read the description for false focus wrong.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead

According to this, at level 11 you create a 2hd ghoul?

Some questions for making a necromancer wizard :

-What opposition schools should i choose?

-Feats? I will probably be taking human.

-Equipment? I only have 500 gp to spend, and some of that went to my skeleton's equipment. -100 gp for creating the skeleton in the first place.

-Spell choices?

-How do i get some form of negative energy to heal my skeleton?

[Krico]

Question wrote:

Oops, i read the description for false focus wrong.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead

According to this, at level 11 you create a 2hd ghoul?

Some questions for making a necromancer wizard :

-What opposition schools should i choose?

-Feats? I will probably be taking human.

-Equipment? I only have 500 gp to spend, and some of that went to my skeleton's equipment. -100 gp for creating the skeleton in the first place.

-Spell choices?

-How do i get some form of negative energy to heal my skeleton?

Unless there's a template for it, or it's an unintelligent undead, I would just keep the base creature's hit dice and modify it for the undead creature type as appropriate (d8 hit dice, no con score, cha for hp, 3/4 hit dice for BAB, etc) and give it the spell like abilities etc listed. I'd ask your gm though. Some of the cooler undead have templates, some don't.

[Krico]

Scratch my last post. It would appear that ghouls also keep class abilities, feats, etc. based off of the level 6 rouge ghoul example. The only thing that doesn't match up are the fact that it's bab is actually one too high for a level 6 rouge (possibly a misprint). So ya, a ghoul seems to be an intelligent undead with all the abilities of the base creature barring the changes made with the undead subtype, and a bite attack with a charisma based injury effect.

[Question]

So you are saying that if i use create undead to turn the corpse of a level 10 warrior into a ghoul, it becomes a level 10 ghoul warrior and not a 2hd ghoul? Well, that makes it much better.

I'm stuck on one thing though...how exactly does a wizard-necromancer get negative energy to heal undead?

[Ichigeki]

Question wrote:

So you are saying that if i use create undead to turn the corpse of a level 10 warrior into a ghoul, it becomes a level 10 ghoul warrior and not a 2hd ghoul? Well, that makes it much better.

I'm stuck on one thing though...how exactly does a wizard-necromancer get negative energy to heal undead?

They don't. The Necromancer Wizard has never been about undead, that was just "a thing they can do". A gimmick. Necromancer Wizards are all about debilitating status effects, possession, astral shenanigans and they used to be able to do save-or-dies, but everyone whined about those, so Paizo nerfed those spells. Actually, Paizo flipped the bird to Necromancers and their fans in general by giving them the worst and most pathetically useless school powers of all the wizard options.

[Krico]

I disagree. It says you can create those creatures. It gives examples of those creatures in the beastiery. In fact some of the creatures you can create are almost nothing BUT templates themselves. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to create advanced hit dice versions of undead based off of the base creature. The spell says you can create the following TYPES of creatures. It doesn't say you have to used the examples printed in the beastiary, merely that it creates that type of creature. What sense does it make to cast create undead on a creature with 15 hit dice turning it into a creature with 2? Or what sense does it make to cast it on a creature with 1 hit die and turning it into a creature with 8?. Ultimately it's a gm decision, but reading any source material or adventure path relating to necromancers disagrees with Ichi's statement. Necromancers are about manipulating death, and almost always use undead as minions and protection. Sure they can do other things, and some focus on some aspects more then others, but the creation of undead is what they are most associated with. I see no printed reason why it wouldn't work.

[GM Arkwright]

KBrewer's Wordcasting guide just pointed to me the fact that the Wordcasting 'animate dead' equivalent has NO MATERIAL COST.

Undeath

This could be significant.

[Question]

Well the necromancer idea just hit another deadwall then, unless i can find some way to get access to negative energy. Is there anything in 3.5 material?

I'm thinking of selecting evocation/enchantment as my opposition schools. Thoughts on this?

[Ichigeki]

Question wrote:

Well the necromancer idea just hit another deadwall then, unless i can find some way to get access to negative energy. Is there anything in 3.5 material?

I'm thinking of selecting evocation/enchantment as my opposition schools. Thoughts on this?

I wouldn't worry too much about healing your minions, but there are a couple of things you can do, give temporary HP to your minions with enervation, and wands of inflict light wounds if you're willing to invest in your UMD skill. When I said Wizards don't heal their undead, I meant they don't typically heal their undead, Because IMO it's not usually worth it when you can just raise more. there are options but I just wouldn't worry about it too much unless you've got a particular creature that you really like.

As for opposition schools, the two that you picked are usually the ideal schools to drop as a Necromancer.

[Ichigeki]

And remember too diversify your spell list, as a specialist you must pick one spell of your specialization school per wizard level, and that is plenty. You won't regret picking up a few spells like colour spray, mirror image, haste or slow for exemple. It sucks when you've only got vampiric touch, chill touch and ghoul touch, but your up against a raging ogre barbarian.

You probably know this but it doesn't hurt to say it just in case.

[Question]

Well i just found a spell called "Infernal healing" that gives any character fast healing 1 for 1 minute.

That. and my DM decided to let me take inflict light wounds as a class spell, so that settles it.

Next step : Traits/feats...

Traits : I could take desperate focus/reactionary for a safe and useful +2 to concentration/+2 to initiative. Are there any better options for a necromancer? Im planning to take craft wondrous item at some point, so hedge magician may be a good idea...

Feats : Are there any that would help to buff undead?

[Ichigeki]

Question wrote:

Well i just found a spell called "Infernal healing" that gives any character fast healing 1 for 1 minute.

That. and my DM decided to let me take inflict light wounds as a class spell, so that settles it.

Next step : Traits/feats...

Traits : I could take desperate focus/reactionary for a safe and useful +2 to concentration/+2 to initiative. Are there any better options for a necromancer? Im planning to take craft wondrous item at some point, so hedge magician may be a good idea...

Feats : Are there any that would help to buff undead?

There are a couple undead based feats in Ultimate magic if I'm not mistaken... However, Personally I would prioritize Spell focus (Necromancy) and the greater version over those. This will boost the DC of your command undead spell, which is vital if you are focusing on the minion aspect. especially at higher levels. As you know, create undead does not automatically grant you control over the raised creature. However, command undead does not grant a saving throw when cast on an unintelligent undead, regardless of hit dice, and lasts days per level, so remember that if you ever encounter a dragon zombie or something like that.

I also recommend craft wand, especially if your GM is allowing you to take inflict spells as a wizard.

[Question]

I'm not really focusing on the minion aspect though, since i start with a undead minion that levels up with me (see above for link).

Is there a difference between using the wizard command undead power and the command undead spell?

Why wands, when UMD isn't a class skill?

[Saraiso]

Question wrote: wrote:

Well the necromancer idea just hit another deadwall then, unless i can find some way to get access to negative energy. Is there anything in 3.5 material?

I'm thinking of selecting evocation/enchantment as my opposition schools. Thoughts on this?

Couple thoughts on this. First, if you can learn Infernal Healing and Greater Infernal Healing you can heal your main undead minion for 10 or 40 hp per cast. Undead can still benefit from fast healing just like any other creature.

Second, if your GM allows the Advanced Races Guide there is a fetchling spell called Gloomblind Bolts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gloomblind-bolts) that might interest you. Its like a scorching ray that damages living targets or heals your undead minions, with a nifty blind effect as well. This would be a good candidate for Preferred Spell, so you can spontaneously cast it whenever you need some undead healing. If you don't want to be a fetchling and your GM enforces race restrictions, Humans can get a feat called Racial Heritage that lets them count as another race, and thus get race only spells and feats and stuff.

Finally, even if your GM is a stickler for only allowing Create Undead to make basic ghouls as in the bestiary, at 11th level you can make Skeletal Champions and Juju Zombies with create undead. Both of these are templates that allow the target to keep all class levels. Skeletal Champions even give 2 racial HD as well as all the class levels, giving the fighter you just killed a boost to their hp and bab.

If your GM is allowing 3.5 stuff, look in the book Libris Mortis. There are a selection of feats along the Corpse Crafter line that give your animated undead 4 str and 2 hp/hd (like augment summoning, but for animated dead) and another interesting one that causes any that die to explode in a burst of negative energy.

Taking this with a bunch of bloody skeletons is hilarity itself, as all your low level minions get wiped out with a fireball, then explode for 2d6 negative energy that damages the baddie and heals your strong minion. Then after combat they re-assemble themselves as bloody skeletons are wont to do :)

Also, look at the feat from the same book called Undead Leadership. Its like leadership but you get an undead cohort and followers, and your leadership score is 2 higher for attracting undead (and 4 lower for attracting living minions). Its a convenient way to get a powerful undead minion that levels with you without having to worry about keeping it docile with Control Undead spells and feats. It also works well for a necromancer wizard because you won't be dumping charisma, as thats what your Command Undead DC is based off of. As a further note to this, consider taking the Skeleton Summoner feat to keep the flavor going, as you can summon skeletal critters with your summon monster spells, and take Undead Master which increases the amount of undead you can control with your Command Undead feat, as well as animate dead. It also doubles the duration of your Command Undead Spell, making it last 2 days/lvl.

If you are playing an evil campaign, I would also recommend the feat Tomb Tainted Soul (also from Libris Mortis) for yourself and all your party members. It causes you to be healed by negative energy and damaged by positive, so if your party has an evil cleric, suddenly the channel energy is healing not only your personal minions but all the party members as well. It costs a feat slot for your whole group, but it makes playing an evil party with a cleric SO much easier. It also synergizes very nicely with the Corpse Crafter line of feats, as now every undead minion your enemies kill explodes to damage the enemies, and heal your party fighters or anyone else nearby :3 This will pretty much make your other players love having your undead horde along, even if they do slow down the fight.

Finally, if you are doing 3.5 stuff and want a prestige class, pick up Pale Master. At 4th level they get Animate Dead as a spell like ability once per day, which means NO material component cost... Takes a while to get, but it really saves money in the long run ^_^

Hope some of that helps.

[tonyz]

Spell focus (necromancy) is an obvious feat, though at low levels you might just want to concentrate on feats that let you survive for a while longer.

Magical lineage for enervation is a great trait.

[Question]

Sairaiso : Great ideas! The corpsecrafter feat chain seems a bit expensive though, and it doesn't stack with the variant i am using :

Enhanced Undead (Ex)

Any time a necromancer using this variant creates an undead creature (such as with animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead), all undead creatures created gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity, and two additional hit points per Hit Die. This ability does not affect the number or Hit Dice of animated creatures that the necromancer can create or control.

A necromancer using this variant does not gain additional spells per day for being a specialist wizard.

Also just realised that spells like enlarge person and heroism won't work on undead...are there any alternatives that do?

Also turns out we are not playing an evil campaign at all, party's going to be a mix of alignments.

[tonyz]

Wizards have a lot of individual buff spells, but not so many group buffs. Haste is certainly one that might prove handy. The other thing you might look into is altering the environment in ways that help undead or hurt non- undead. For instance, while undead still suffer miss chances, things like stinking cloud and cloudkill don't otherwise affect them. Or you could throw fear on an area involving undead, who are immune to it, but the enemy aren't.

This is where clerics really shine because they have lots of group/area buffs. Maybe one of your fellow party members could help out?

Seeing if you coul research or invent something like a wall of fire that did negative energy damage might be very intriguing, actually, consider inventing a few undead-buffing spells if your GM will work with you on that.

Working with good-aligned fellow party members might be a bigger challenge, though.

[BEGS]

for my undead lord i picked up the following feats to improve animation.
Undead master
varisian tatto necromancy
spell specialization animate dead
spell focus necromancy

also if you use mythic rules for this game you can spend mythic points to cast animate dead without using your hard earned cash.

[Gallyck]

How do you handle a necromancer in a neutral or good campaign? Do they dismiss zombies? Even a juju zombie has to be a little bit disturbing to the townfolk.

[Claxon]

I believe James Jacobs said at some point all Undead are evil, and that the Juju Oracle was mistake that should not have went to print.

Edit:

James Jacobs wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Mikaze wrote:

Asked about this in another topic, but I was curious what the official take on it was: If a good-aligned Juju Oracle creates good intelligent undead, what do those undead create if their spawning abilities are triggered?

As far as Golarion and my personal games and my personal preferences go... a good aligned juju oracle can't create undead because (with the exception of certain rare ghosts) all undead are evil.

Wait, really? :(

For Golarion, I thought the whole point of the Juju Oracle's Spirit Vessels mystery was to allow non-evil undead, since they're created through different methods with wendo spirits that remove the [evil] descriptor from the creation process used. Was there supposed to be an alignment restriction on this after all?

Its just that whenever someone wants to play a good necromancer type, Juju Oracle has been the popular suggestion recently.

I actually didn't develop the Juju oracle, but yeah, you can't create non-evil undead in Golarion. I seem to recall that the juju oracle can do other things than just make undead, though. There's no alignment restriciton, but if you want to be an undead making juju oracle you either have to:

1) Come to terms with the fact that you can't create undead without eventual alignment repercussions, or...

2) Talk to your GM to see if he/she's okay with house ruling non-evil undead into their game.

The concept of non-evil undead is not something we want to support officially for Pathfinder or Golarion, despite the fact that now and then they seem to sneak into the game anyway. That's more or less just me not being able to act as the quality control on every single word that goes through the building, I guess.

EDIT: Since I haven't actually spent much time with the juju oracle rules at all, though, it sounds like there are some ways to sneak by with "undead-similar" stuff going on. It's a fine line you'd have to walk.

[Saraiso]

I am actually playing a necromancer in a predominantly good campaign :) Its quite a fun character, though the requirement to "fit in" means she isn't at all optimized.

Mostly, theres the Disguise Undead spell that lasts 24 hours and makes an undead creature look alive. It even fools spells such as detect undead, making the target detect as the creature type you disguise it as. She uses that on her undead cohort (a skeleton champion gnoll ranger, if you can believe it) as well as on a few select minions.

Since the other characters do not know that she's a necromancer, she only travels with 1-2 undead minions at a time that she can keep buffed with Disguise Undead. She currently has an underground keep where the rest of her horde of minions hang out, where they act as unsleeping, untiring, unpaid labor excavating a massive underground Evil Lair (tm). Muahahaha!

I picked up the Undead focused school for the necromancy specialty, so she can buff her undead with the Bolster power it grants, as well as through spells like haste.

Buffing isn't needed as much as you might think, since even at our current 9th level, Fast Mammoth zombies are a thing that win fights. The character uses one as her mount :3

Anyways, the biggest advantage I found in a good/neutral game is the Disguise Undead spell. Its basically the only way you can keep your undead minions and not get run out of town, or get the party paladin to go smite happy on your skinny butt ^_^

[Skullking]

Question wrote:

If i understand this correctly, the best option is to take the undead lord cleric archetype?

I see several problems with this :

-Inability to spontaneously convert cure spells is a big drawback when trying to keep party members alive, in comparison inflict is useless except for healing your undead minions

If you have the Death's Kiss granted power from the Undead subdomain you can use your spontaneous inflict spells to cure part members.

[Psion-Psycho]

Ichigeki wrote:

Question wrote:

So you are saying that if i use create undead to turn the corpse of a level 10 warrior into a ghoul, it becomes a level 10 ghoul warrior and not a 2hd ghoul? Well, that makes it much better.

I'm stuck on one thing though...how exactly does a wizard-necromancer get negative energy to heal undead?

They don't. The Necromancer Wizard has never been about undead, that was just "a thing they can do". A gimmick. Necromancer Wizards are all about debilitating status effects, possession, astral shenanigans and they used to be able to do save-or-dies, but everyone whined about those, so Paizo nerfed those spells. Actually, Paizo flipped the bird to Necromancers and their fans in general by giving them the worst and most pathetically useless school powers of all the wizard options.

Untrue the necromancer wizard has Negative Energy Ray and Burst both 3.5 spells that can found on the following site.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-ray--3410/
http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-burst--3409/

[Psion-Psycho]

Do not choose evocation ur gonna want to cast aoe damage spells. The following feat are 3.5 feats i used on my necromancer and greatly helped it out to be a godly with minions. Lord of Uttercold was a god sent meta feat since all my cold spells did 1/2 damage negative energy so my undead were immune to cold and got a heal from the negative and thanks to its prerequisite Energy Substitution all my aoe spells did cold damage. Also u will want the Craft Wand feat since the wizard only gets so many spells to cast along with Craft Staff to qualify for Staff-Like Wand so u can mass produce wands of Negative Energy Ray and Burst to do nice damage/heals.

The main strategy with this feat combo is to make loads of 2hd skeletons that go boom when they die thanks to Destruction Retribution, those skeletons btw dont need to be under ur control just created by u, that does 1d6 negative energy damage to the living and a heal to ur dead. Have a couple big undead to serve as main body guards and when possible get ur self a few giants so they can throw the weaker undead at enemies to trigger there Destruction Retribution. False Focus will come in handy for mass manufacturing the 2-4HD skeletons. All he low hd skeletons should be Burning if possible and big ones should be bleeding when possible.

The wizard should have the Necromancer Variant for Skeletal Minion, which benefits from all the listed feats that pertain to ur undead minions, and Enhanced Undead for additional benefits. The Skeletal Minion btw can be equiped with gear just like any minion so keep that in mind. Also becoming a Lich will be desirable for u. The last time i went Lich my Phylactery was the captains chair of a flying boat i made out of bone enhanced with the Adamantine Bone spell to increase its hardness. I advise doing some thing along the same wrought since undead dont need to breath hiding out at sea becomes a valuable tactic for not being hunted down. Another good idea for a phylactery is a magic item. A self cleaning chamber pot was one that my friend had as his and was stationed in a distant castle of his run and occupied by his living descendents.

Fell Animate
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-animat e--1101/

Energy Substitution
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/energy-substitution--880/

Lord of the Uttercold
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/lord-of-the-uttercold--1791/

Corpsecrafter
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/corpsecraft er--432/

Hardened Flesh
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/hardened-fl esh--1341/

Destruction Retribution
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/destruction -retribution--591/

Deadly Chill
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/deadly-chil l--525/

Undead Leadership
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/undead-lead ership--3014/

[Ichigeki]

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Ichigeki wrote:

Question wrote:

So you are saying that if i use create undead to turn the corpse of a level 10 warrior into a ghoul, it becomes a level 10 ghoul warrior and not a 2hd ghoul? Well, that makes it much better.

I'm stuck on one thing though...how exactly does a wizard-necromancer get negative energy to heal undead?

They don't. The Necromancer Wizard has never been about undead, that was just "a thing they can do". A gimmick. Necromancer Wizards are all about debilitating status effects, possession, astral shenanigans and they used to be able to do save-or-dies, but everyone whined about those, so Paizo nerfed those spells. Actually, Paizo flipped the bird to Necromancers and their fans in general by giving them the worst and most pathetically useless school powers of all the wizard options.

Untrue the necromancer wizard has Negative Energy Ray and Burst both 3.5 spells that can found on the following site.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-ray--3410/
http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-burst--3409/

3.5, Your argument is invalid.

[Psion-Psycho]

Ichigeki wrote:

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Ichigeki wrote:

Question wrote:

So you are saying that if i use create undead to turn the corpse of a level 10 warrior into a ghoul, it becomes a level 10 ghoul warrior and not a 2hd ghoul? Well, that makes it much better.

I'm stuck on one thing though...how exactly does a wizard-necromancer get negative energy to heal undead?

They don't. The Necromancer Wizard has never been about undead, that was just "a thing they can do". A gimmick. Necromancer Wizards are all about debilitating status effects, possession, astral shenanigans and they used to be able to do save-or-dies, but everyone whined about those, so Paizo nerfed those spells. Actually, Paizo flipped the bird to Necromancers and their fans in general by giving them the worst and most pathetically useless school powers of all the wizard options.

Untrue the necromancer wizard has Negative Energy Ray and Burst both 3.5 spells that can found on the following site.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-ray--3410/
http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-burst--3409/

3.5, Your argument is invalid.

The OGC as dictated from the OGL would allow the use of 3.5 material with pathfinder material. Its more of a DM thing of allowing certain books to be used in there game. Of course this is an argument for a different thread so as u were Necromancers.

[Question]

So, can anyone tell me what metamagic feats i should be taking, if any?

[Question]

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Do not choose evocation ur gonna want to cast aoe damage spells. The following feat are 3.5 feats i used on my necromancer and greatly helped it out to be a godly with minions. Lord of Uttercold was a god sent meta feat since all my cold spells did 1/2 damage negative energy so my undead were immune to cold and got a heal from the negative and thanks to its prerequisite Energy Substitution all my aoe spells did cold damage. Also u will want the Craft Wand feat since the wizard only gets so many spells to cast along with Craft Staff to qualify for Staff-Like Wand so u can mass produce wands of Negative Energy Ray and Burst to do nice damage/heals.

The main strategy with this feat combo is to make loads of 2hd skeletons that go boom when they die thanks to Destruction Retribution, those skeletons btw dont need to be under ur control just created by u, that does 1d6 negative energy damage to the living and a heal to ur dead. Have a couple big undead to serve as main body guards and when possible get ur self a few giants so they can throw the weaker undead at enemies to trigger there Destruction Retribution. False Focus will come in handy for mass manufacturing the 2-4HD skeletons. All he low hd skeletons should be Burning if possible and big ones should be bleeding when possible.

The wizard should have the Necromancer Variant for Skeletal Minion, which benefits from all the listed feats that pertain to ur undead minions, and Enhanced Undead for additional benefits. The Skeletal Minion btw can be equiped with gear just like any minion so keep that in mind. Also becoming a Lich will be desirable for u. The last time i went Lich my Phylactery was the captains chair of a flying boat i made out of bone enhanced with the Adamantine Bone spell to increase its hardness. I advise doing some thing along the same wrought since undead dont need to breath hiding out at sea becomes a valuable tactic for not being hunted down. Another good idea for a phylactery is a magic item. A self cleaning chamber pot was one that my...

Unfortunately i don't have the feats to take the corpsecrafted chain ATM, and it's kind of redundant with the variant i am using (see above).

[Question]

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Ichigeki wrote:

Question wrote:

So you are saying that if i use create undead to turn the corpse of a level 10 warrior into a ghoul, it becomes a level 10 ghoul warrior and not a 2hd ghoul? Well, that makes it much better.

I'm stuck on one thing though...how exactly does a wizard-necromancer get negative energy to heal undead?

They don't. The Necromancer Wizard has never been about undead, that was just "a thing they can do". A gimmick. Necromancer Wizards are all about debilitating status effects, possession, astral shenanigans and they used to be able to do save-or-dies, but everyone whined about those, so Paizo nerfed those spells. Actually, Paizo flipped the bird to Necromancers and their fans in general by giving them the worst and most pathetically useless school powers of all the wizard options.

Untrue the necromancer wizard has Negative Energy Ray and Burst both 3.5 spells that can found on the following site.

http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-ray--3410/
http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-and-blood-a-guidebook-to-wizards-and-sorcere rs--51/negative-energy-burst--3409/

Hmm, 1d6 negative energy, +1d6 per 2 levels for a level 1 spell. Seems a tad powerful...

[tonyz]

Metamagic feats for necromancers:

Persistent Spell. You have very low-level save-or-cry spells, starting with cause fear at first level, and blindness/deafness at second level,so a +2 level modifier to force a second save if the first one fails isn't bad at all.

Reach Spell. A lot of your offensive spells are touch or close range. Boosting them up a bit in range is very handy.

Quicken Spell: see above as you have many good low-level spells, and getting one of them off real fast can be extremely useful at higher levels.

[Question]

Which touch spells are good for a necromancer? Stuff like chill touch seems like junk IMHO.

Wouldn't quicken be redundant at higher levels due to the saves? Using a 6th level spell slot for a quickened blindness with low DC isn't very useful...