You think the battle casters are better against the environment than even an average geared optimized barbarian? I think Superstitious Invulnerable Rager Beast Totem barbarian should be in the same tier as he Magus. They can kill faster than any of those classes except possibly the Magus. The ability to move from target to target getting full attacks in melee is extremely powerful on top of reducing every physical attack by a substantial amount as well as being able to attack an opponent first when they are attacked.How accurate would this tier list be?
Tier 1:
Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, Half-elf paragon surge oracleTier 2:
Oracle, Summoner, SorcererTier 3:
Inquisitor, Magus, Bard, AlchemistTier 4:
Ranger, Paladin, BarbarianTier 5:
Gunslinger, Zen archer monk, Fighter, NinjaTier 6:
Rogue, Monk, Cavalier, SamuraiThe power level goes from left to right. The list is relative to each other, and does not mean the top do not have weaknesses.
The general idea is that Full casters > Spontaneous Casters > Battlecasters > 1/3rd casters > Mundanes.
To be honest these lines seem very obvious to me, I could be wrong about the placement in each tier but I have never seen anything that would make me put them a tier higher or lower.
but that is the Barbarian's only Trick, Damage
Shrugging off spells doesn't count because you also shrug off buffs from your allies
and that DR takes a while to build, plus the Raging HP total, while useful in raging combats. is useless when rage cycling and protects you from maybe one level appropriate enemy full attack
a Barbarian's Role is melee combat, but it is all they can do effectively
the paladin can heal out of combat and remove conditions, can serve as a party face, has similar saving throws, and has a variety of utilitarian spells
the ranger can heal out of combat, can serve as a scout and trapfinder, with the right build can be a face, makes a better archer, and...
Barbarian also gets 4 skill points a level. Perception as a class skill. So he has some skill points to spend on other skills should he need them. More than the paladin if he chooses to become the face of the group.
And this is a discussion of power, not versatility. Power is about killing and avoiding getting killed. I consider the barbarian at least as good as the combat casters.
the limited selection from the druid spell list, and the lack of other major powerful druidic features such as wildshape, animal companion, and other things that round it out, as well as the lack of buffs to make it CODZillaDoes the shaman still get complete access to the wizard list with the wandering lore spirit power? If so it is clearly tier 1.
For people talking about barbarian damage output that doesn't increase your tier. The tier ranking are not about the ability to kill things dead but rather about how many ways you bring problem solving options to the game. Some of those problems include killing things dead in combat but it also addresses a whole host of other issues such as dealing with social encounters, obstacle avoidance/removal, investigation, information gathering, travel and lots more. Prepared casters sit in tier 1 because for any problem there is almost always a spell somewhere that will let you deal with it.
Well, I once again say do not forget the 4 skill points a level for the barbarian and Perception as a class skill (the most used skill in the game). Barbarians can also intimidate quite well. They can also stealth, climb, and use acrobatics. You can send a barbarian with a rogue or monk to scout over a paladin or fighter. They can also track with Survival. They bring more to the table than killing alone if you choose to build them as such.
In my experience most classes build to kill, even Magus, Inquisitors, and the like. So the entire social factor is irrelevant for the majority of campaigns. This game is about winning against enemies in an adventure 90% of the time. Even the Adventure Paths are designed in this fashion.
A barbarian will decimate an adventure path or module. Gear can make up for travel and other such things or another party member will provide it.
You guys are talking theoretical again. You're making this Schroedinger's Wizard argument. I'm talking as a DM running games. Barbarian is as hard to deal with, if not harder, than the classes listed in Tier 3. That means when I plan obstacles, I have to take into account the barbarian's powers and abilities more carefully than I do lower tier classes.
This tier system should be based on how hard a class is to deal with as a DM who isn't going out of his way to kill a particular class.
Barbarians can dispell any ongoing spell by simply hitting it. That's pretty useful.This is mostly why they manage to get to tier 4.
The rest of the mundanes are only mundane, but barbarians can do magic with their rage.
Another thing is that versatility has an effect on overall power. Basically all the battlecasters can fight well, have good saves, a lot of skill points, making them very flexible. I personally have not found the Paladin or the Ranger to be nearly as versatile. I think their spell list is relatively limited, although the good spells that they have are pretty good
How is a Magus more versatile than a Barbarian???
A Barbarian and a Magus tend to have very close skill points (Magus have +2 int where as the Barb has 4+ but the Magus tends to run with int as a secondary stat with Str/Dex [depending on build] as primaries). Where a magus has Know Arcana, Planes, Spellcraft, and UMD a Barb has Acrobatics (actually quite useful for charge heavy builds), Perception (the most rolled skill in the game), Know Nature (one of the big 4), and Survival.
Now you can say "A Magus can prepare spells" but have you looked at a magus spell list? A good 90% of their spells are 1) Hitting things, 2)getting better at hitting things, or 3) not getting hit yourself. They do not have much in the way of utility. On top of that, their spellcasting is VERY misleading. While a magus CAN prepare some utility spells, they tend not to because they have a limited amount of spells (YAY 3/4 casting) and they are VERY dependent on Spellstrike to pad their damage. Without Spell Combat and Spell Strike, they tend to be mostly poor rogues. On top of that, in real application, you will very quickly see a good number of very SOLIDLY built magus run around with combat spells and leave the utility to the Wizard and the Cleric.
Additionally, the Magus is VERY spiky. While yes, a Magus can get a few rediculously powerful hits in a day, they will very quickly exhaust themselves of all their resources. Whereas a Barbarian will very quickly cease counting his rounds of rage because he has more than you could possibly ever use. A barbarian can effectively be at full and max potential just about all the time without much worry. On top of that, the barbarian is MUCH more consistent. The average DPR of a Barb will greatly outshine a magus because he can maintain that damage where as for a Magus, he is dependent on burning spells (which for him are very limited), burning arcana points (agian a limited resource) AND dependent on luck of the dice (granted it is a 1/4) to crit to get his damage up.
As for the saves... I would liek to mention that Paladins AND Barbarians tend to have a better save average than just about everybody. Becaseu both classes actually have almost NO poor saves. A barb with superstition (which just about all of them have) pretty much has the same will as a guy wiht good will. They already get goot reflex and fort AND they get a huge buff to Con that stacks with other things so Fort (you know, the BIG save) is pretty muhc an autopass). As for the pally, adding a second stat to your saves does alot... along with being immune to just about everything anyway...
All in all, I would put the barb as high, if not higher than a magus...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like a lot of people here aren't very familiar with the tier system. It's not about damage, it was never about damage (except maybe tier 4/5), it's about versatility and ability to solve problems.
To explain using what's above, a magus and Barbarian need to reach Breakhaven as soon as possible. A magus teleports, a Barbarian walks (10 feet faster than everyone else.)
A magus and a barbarian both want to sneak into a building. A magus cast Vanish/Invisibility, a barbarian prays to god no one notices the 6'12 woman sneaking into the window.
A magus and barbarian both want to reach the sky castle. A magus cast Overland Flight, the barbarian puts on her R. Kelly mix tape and skips to "I believe I can fly" for a morale bonus on her jump check.
These are all situations in which the magus can do something that the barbarian can not. I myself would put the barbarian in high tier 5/low tier four, since Spell Sunder gives them the option that no other mundane has. Honestly most of that line does, as Superstitious (Especially w/ human bonus) makes them a magic eating save tank.
Remember also that tiers assume the same level of optimization, they consider both the optimization floor and ceiling of a class. My own tier list would be (in no particular order)
T1: Wizard, Witch, Druid, Cleric, P. Surge Oracle/Sorc
T2: Sorc, Oracle
T3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Summoner (HIGH), Magus
T4: Ranger, Paladin, Antipaladin, Barbarian (LOW), Ninja, Some Monk Archetypes (Zen Archer, Quiqquong, Hungry Ghost)
T5: Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Monk
Not a lot of commentary on them, although if I had to I could explain the place of each one.
I have played 2 barbarians, at the same time in 2 different games, one of which was for 2.5 yrs. (ended at level 14)., and I can say that barbarians, when even built sloppily are extremely powerful and effective characters.
-Insane damage
-Spell sunder - enough said
-CAGM for even more attacks
-Superstition for insane saves
-High DR/-
-Good amount of skill points - only really need perception, acrobatics, and possibly survival, intimidate if for that kind of build
-Can also be very effective at tripping and disarm due to high sunder CMB score.
-extra speed
They can scout, frontline, take down the big bad almost by themselves or handle the lowly wizard with all his spells while still taking loads of damage.
I say make Barbarian's at least Tier 3 minimum.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like a lot of people here aren't very familiar with the tier system. It's not about damage, it was never about damage (except maybe tier 4/5), it's about versatility and ability to solve problems.
To explain using what's above, a magus and Barbarian need to reach Breakhaven as soon as possible. A magus teleports, a Barbarian walks (10 feet faster than everyone else.)
A magus and a barbarian both want to sneak into a building. A magus cast Vanish/Invisibility, a barbarian prays to god no one notices the 6'12 woman sneaking into the window.
A magus and barbarian both want to reach the sky castle. A magus cast Overland Flight, the barbarian puts on her R. Kelly mix tape and skips to "I believe I can fly" for a morale bonus on her jump check.
These are all situations in which the magus can do something that the barbarian can not. I myself would put the barbarian in high tier 5/low tier four, since Spell Sunder gives them the option that no other mundane has. Honestly most of that line does, as Superstitious (Especially w/ human bonus) makes them a magic eating save tank.
Remember also that tiers assume the same level of optimization, they consider both the optimization floor and ceiling of a class. My own tier list would be (in no particular order)
T1: Wizard, Witch, Druid, Cleric, P. Surge Oracle/Sorc
T2: Sorc, Oracle
T3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Summoner (HIGH), Magus
T4: Ranger, Paladin, Antipaladin, Barbarian (LOW), Ninja, Some Monk Archetypes (Zen Archer, Quiqquong, Hungry Ghost)
T5: Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Monk
Not a lot of commentary on them, although if I had to I could explain the place of each one.
Then why did someone earlier list the Tier system as based on power?
Power wise the barbarian is Tier 3. The only hit against them is versatility for non-combat problem solving. That has very little effect on power. Otherwise they are very good in many other areas with the 4 skill points and versatile offensive and defensive rage powers.
I still think the Tier System should be based on how hard a class is to challenge as a DM. Not this arbitrary theory crafting that doesn't apply to 90% of game encounters that assumes a Tier 1 class can achieve more in these strange campaigns where the player have unlimited wealth for binding creatures, making simulacrums, and casting wishes. That isn't how a real campaign runs. Not sure why the theory crafters paint the prepared casters as having wealth so far beyond what they actually have.
And summoned creatures are easily dealt with by opposing DM built parties to the point it is barely worth having them around.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everything is broken on paper.
Personally, I only accept that a class is broken when the person making the claim has played the class at the indicated level.
For example, I've played a sorcerer built to have a min-maxed disintegrate DC. On paper, I should be cutting 50% of encounters in half by round 2. In practice, I have a GM who learned my strategy quickly and made sure his best bosses were high Fortitude creatures that had a much better chance to succeed against my disintegrate spells.
That, and you realize pretty quickly that you can't throw disentegrates around all willy-nilly. You gotta use them like a fine exacto-knife of utter destruction.
Everything is broken on paper.
Personally, I only accept that a class is broken when the person making the claim has played the class at the indicated level.
For example, I've played a sorcerer built to have a min-maxed disintegrate DC. On paper, I should be cutting 50% of encounters in half by round 2. In practice, I have a GM who learned my strategy quickly and made sure his best bosses were high Fortitude creatures that had a much better chance to succeed against my disintegrate spells.
That, and you realize pretty quickly that you can't throw disentegrates around all willy-nilly. You gotta use them like a fine exacto-knife of utter destruction.
Ok then let me tell you that a Half-elf Paragon Surge Oracle is the best class in the game bar nothing. Let me also tell you that Wizards/Clerics/Druids are all incredibly powerful to the point of invalidating most non-fullcasters (I would include Sorcerers here, but... haven't actually played one at high levels yet.)
And no offense, but throwing around disintegrate is just a waste of a resources. There are far more terrifying things a high level casters can do then damage. (And really... better spells to aim for a high DC for.)
I have played 2 barbarians, at the same time in 2 different games, one of which was for 2.5 yrs. (ended at level 14)., and I can say that barbarians, when even built sloppily are extremely powerful and effective characters.
-Insane damage
-Spell sunder - enough said
-CAGM for even more attacks
-Superstition for insane saves
-High DR/-
-Good amount of skill points - only really need perception, acrobatics, and possibly survival, intimidate if for that kind of build
-Can also be very effective at tripping and disarm due to high sunder CMB score.
-extra speedThey can scout, frontline, take down the big bad almost by themselves or handle the lowly wizard with all his spells while still taking loads of damage.
I say make Barbarian's at least Tier 3 minimum.
Perhaps it's just me, but I fail to see how Come and Get Me corresponds to that many extra attacks. It seems like a smart group of enemies would just fall back, and rain down arrow-y death on the now-easy target, as soon as their first friend gets turned into hamburger. Sure in an All-melee fight, it might be an issue, but start adding in ranged combatants, and suddenly the Barb is a pincushion. And this is all assuming the enemies aren't familiar enough with Barbarians to make a retreat/remain in hiding until the Barb goes out of rage, and they can beat the now fatigued and unable to rage Barbarian.
Perhaps it's just me, but I fail to see how Come and Get Me corresponds to that many extra attacks. It seems like a smart group of enemies would just fall back, and rain down arrow-y death on the now-easy target, as soon as their first friend gets turned into hamburger. Sure in an All-melee fight, it might be an issue, but start adding in ranged combatants, and suddenly the Barb is a pincushion. And this is all assuming the enemies aren't familiar enough with Barbarians to make a retreat/remain in hiding until the Barb goes out of rage, and they can beat the now fatigued and unable to rage Barbarian.I have played 2 barbarians, at the same time in 2 different games, one of which was for 2.5 yrs. (ended at level 14)., and I can say that barbarians, when even built sloppily are extremely powerful and effective characters.
-Insane damage
-Spell sunder - enough said
-CAGM for even more attacks
-Superstition for insane saves
-High DR/-
-Good amount of skill points - only really need perception, acrobatics, and possibly survival, intimidate if for that kind of build
-Can also be very effective at tripping and disarm due to high sunder CMB score.
-extra speedThey can scout, frontline, take down the big bad almost by themselves or handle the lowly wizard with all his spells while still taking loads of damage.
I say make Barbarian's at least Tier 3 minimum.
1 level dip into oracle helps a lot you know... (rage Cycling for the win). As for the falling back and resorting to using ranged weapons, remember that Barbs tend to run around with Beast Totem (i.e. Pounce). Additionally, CAGM is almost ALWAYS used with the Invunerable Rager Archetype, so they have fairly good DR. On top of that, if a creature is switching up to ranged when their first instinct was melee means they are probably not exceptionally skilled at range, and as such they will be doing EVEN LESS to a Barb with high DR. On top of that, The Barb's fast movement means that he will our run most people (assumming other humanoids).
Barbarians are good at killing stuffif i entered the Underground or the Abyss and i could bring a pouncing superstitious invulnerable rager barbarian with me, i would
but for the traps, i'd rather have an urban ranger or archaeologist bard
My Barbarian has a higher trap disarm success rate than any Ranger or Bard I've ever seen.
Trap Wrecker is WONDERFUL.
1 level dip into oracle helps a lot you know... (rage Cycling for the win). As for the falling back and resorting to using ranged weapons, remember that Barbs tend to run around with Beast Totem (i.e. Pounce). Additionally, CAGM is almost ALWAYS used with the Invunerable Rager Archetype, so they have fairly good DR. On top of that, if a creature is switching up to ranged when their first instinct was melee means they are probably not exceptionally skilled at range, and as such they will be doing EVEN LESS to a Barb with high DR. On top of that, The Barb's fast movement means that...Perhaps it's just me, but I fail to see how Come and Get Me corresponds to that many extra attacks. It seems like a smart group of enemies would just fall back, and rain down arrow-y death on the now-easy target, as soon as their first friend gets turned into hamburger. Sure in an All-melee fight, it might be an issue, but start adding in ranged combatants, and suddenly the Barb is a pincushion. And this is all assuming the enemies aren't familiar enough with Barbarians to make a retreat/remain in hiding until the Barb goes out of rage, and they can beat the now fatigued and unable to rage Barbarian.I have played 2 barbarians, at the same time in 2 different games, one of which was for 2.5 yrs. (ended at level 14)., and I can say that barbarians, when even built sloppily are extremely powerful and effective characters.
-Insane damage
-Spell sunder - enough said
-CAGM for even more attacks
-Superstition for insane saves
-High DR/-
-Good amount of skill points - only really need perception, acrobatics, and possibly survival, intimidate if for that kind of build
-Can also be very effective at tripping and disarm due to high sunder CMB score.
-extra speedThey can scout, frontline, take down the big bad almost by themselves or handle the lowly wizard with all his spells while still taking loads of damage.
I say make Barbarian's at least Tier 3 minimum.
First of all, Pounce does nothing against anything set up for range; Composite Longbows have a range of 110 feet, and the best a Pouncing Barbarian could do is 80 ft (60 ft, for Oracle MCs or Medium Armor wearers). Besides Pounce requires a charge, which requires a straight line to the enemy, without obstruction, or more commonly, difficult terrain. Secondly, if any of the enemies have any set-up for ranged fighting, things go down for the Barb really quickly. The best the Barbarian can do is get into melee with a single enemy. Then, any enemy with Precise Shot will have no problem hitting them. The DR is an issue, since the enemies will likely not have the Clustered Shot feat, but with the number of shots taken at the easy-target barbarian, will add up.
...1 level dip into oracle helps a lot you know... (rage Cycling for the win). As for the falling back and resorting to using ranged weapons, remember that Barbs tend to run around with Beast Totem (i.e. Pounce). Additionally, CAGM is almost ALWAYS used with the Invunerable Rager Archetype, so they have fairly good DR. On top of that, if a creature is switching up to ranged when their first instinct was melee means they are probably not exceptionally skilled at range, and as such they will be doing EVEN LESS to a Barb with high DR. On top of that, ThePerhaps it's just me, but I fail to see how Come and Get Me corresponds to that many extra attacks. It seems like a smart group of enemies would just fall back, and rain down arrow-y death on the now-easy target, as soon as their first friend gets turned into hamburger. Sure in an All-melee fight, it might be an issue, but start adding in ranged combatants, and suddenly the Barb is a pincushion. And this is all assuming the enemies aren't familiar enough with Barbarians to make a retreat/remain in hiding until the Barb goes out of rage, and they can beat the now fatigued and unable to rage Barbarian.I have played 2 barbarians, at the same time in 2 different games, one of which was for 2.5 yrs. (ended at level 14)., and I can say that barbarians, when even built sloppily are extremely powerful and effective characters.
-Insane damage
-Spell sunder - enough said
-CAGM for even more attacks
-Superstition for insane saves
-High DR/-
-Good amount of skill points - only really need perception, acrobatics, and possibly survival, intimidate if for that kind of build
-Can also be very effective at tripping and disarm due to high sunder CMB score.
-extra speedThey can scout, frontline, take down the big bad almost by themselves or handle the lowly wizard with all his spells while still taking loads of damage.
I say make Barbarian's at least Tier 3 minimum.
That is only if they were built for archery to begin with. At which point though, you would go into rage until you got within range. I was speaking more from the idea of guys who were in Melee and then feel back and switch-hit into ranged because they found out that the barb is too hard to kill in melee.
If the ranged guys were there from the get go, the Party Wizard/Cleric/Druid would just use wind wall (as is fairly customary) to stop the arrows. If the ENTIRE ENCOUNTER is a bunch of archers, then only a dumb barbarian would use rage WHILE OVER 100 FT AWAY. Additionally, The barbarian can easily run toward the enemies, when within charging range, turn on rage, charge, full attack (most probably kill the guy in a single full attack or two if its a battle with more than a few archers), drop rage, move to the next guy and repeat.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is how I see the current power scale of Pathfinder.
Tier 1 - Too good (even if it often takes a great amount of game mastery to show all they are capable of): Wizard, Druid, Cleric and Witch. (As well as Sorcerers/Oracles who are allowed to abuse Paragon Surge)
Tier 2 - Not as good, but still too much: Sorcerer, Oracle and Master Summoner
Tier 2.5 - Still too good, just slightly less so than the last guys I listed: Every other Summoner archetype. Including vanilla and Synthesist. Most Blaster Sorcerer builds... Depending on how one-dimensional the build is, they might even fall further in the tier scale.
----- The OP Line: I don't consider anything below this line to be overpowered ------
Tier 3 - Very Well balanced: Awesome at their main job, but still able to contribute in many different situations without breaking the game or stepping on anyone's toes: Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus and Paladin... Magi might be above the other classes. Anti-Paladins could be here or in the tier below...
Tier 3.5 - Almost there, but could use a small buff, IMO: Rangers, Sohei Monk, Zen Archei Monk... And Gunslingers, if those firearms rules weren't so obnoxious (targeting touch AC makes no sense whatsoever, and goes against a base assumption of the game).
Tier 4 - Underpowered, but can still shine at their main job: Fighter, Cavalier, Ninja* and Samurai.
Tier 5 - Underpowered and easily one-upped by other classes with similar roles: Rogue and Monk**. Adept is probably the one NPC class to be above tier 6.
Tier 6 - Why are you playing this?: Commoner, Warrior, Expert and Aristocrat.
*Some Ninja Ki tricks just barely push the class up to tier 4.
**With style feats and the errata, Monks might be able to go up one category.
Observations: Archetypes might move a class up or down a bit, but probably no more than 2 tiers.
Also, I may have forgotten a class or two.
Personaly, if every class was inside the range of tier 2 to 3.5, I'd be satisfied with game balance. A few adjustments would still be desirable, (most likely spell balance) but overall, it'd be a really well balanced game system, even if not perfect.
The trick against come and get me barbarians is to use the reach of the monsters
1 level dip into oracle helps a lot you know... (rage Cycling for the win). As for the falling back and resorting to using ranged weapons, remember that Barbs tend to run around with Beast Totem (i.e. Pounce). Additionally, CAGM is almost ALWAYS used with the Invunerable Rager Archetype, so they have fairly good DR. On top of that, if a creature is switching up to ranged when their first instinct was melee means they are probably not exceptionally skilled at range, and as such they will be doing EVEN LESS to a Barb with high DR. On top of that, The Barb's fast movement means that...
Now THAT is true lol.
I consider that the cannonical barbarian uild and the rest of barbarian are have to be in diferent tiers, lie the sorcerer with and without paragon surge.
I don't think it's necessary. Both builds fit into tier 3 category. There will always be some balance variance even among classes builds in the same tier. Notice how I also don't separate 2-Handed/Archery Fighters from the ones using crossbows.
Besides, I still think Barbarians don't need both Superstition and Beast Totem to be powerful. Having at least one of them is almost obligatory, but having both is not a necessity, just a really effective choice.
Superstition is the one Rage Power that I think is a must-have. That boost to saves is pretty much essential to survive high levels.
|
|
Then why did someone earlier list the Tier system as based on power?
Power wise the barbarian is Tier 3. The only hit against them is versatility for non-combat problem solving. That has very little effect on power. Otherwise they are very good in many other areas with the 4 skill points and versatile...
I'm not here to explain why certain people misinterpreted the tier system, although I might have to link the explanations here soon since people still think it's based on raw power/numbers instead of versatility, which is the actual measure of it. A barb doing infinity damage doesn't help when that's all they can do at close range with a melee weapon when the enemy is 1000 miles away in a castle made of force.
Raw power is not the metric to be used, it's versatility. It's why the Barbarian is more Versatile than the Fighter, since the Barbarian can do things the Fighter can't against different situations. Hell, the Barbarian can generally outfight the Fighter in any given situation (I've checked, Barbarian archers are VERY viable.)
But for as much as they can do, a Barbarian can't do much in a situation where beating something into the ground isn't the focus. Wizards are Tier 1 because after a day they can change the world in a new way, and that's not even with 9th level magic. Casting Dominate Person on Monday, Create Lesser Demiplane on Tuesday, and ending it with a Planar Binding on Wednesday (or all on the same day if they wanted) is what lets them do anything, unlike a T2 who probably doesn't have that level of versatility.
If you're talking about some kind of combat tiers, we're discussing something else entirely, but for the regularly assumed tiers, out of game versatility is generally more important since the game is designed to let everyone contribute in combat (...even the Rogue)
A better way to put it is...
The tier system is about options.
Real, viable options, mind you.
The more (real) answers you have to the greater variety of situations, the highest in the tier scale you are.
This is particularly so in a game where you can face literally anything your GM can think of.
Having big numbers but being unable to use them in more one or two specific situations is weak. That's why Fighters are underpowered. So is having lots of possible "options" but not having the numbers to make them viable. That's why Rogues are underpowered.
A better way to put it is...
The tier system is about options.
Real, viable options, mind you.
The more (real) answers you have to the greater variety of situations, the highest in the tier scale you are.
This is particularly so in a game where you can face literally anything your GM can think of.
Having big numbers but being unable to use them in more one or two specific situations is weak. That's why Fighters are underpowered. So is having lots of possible "options" but not having the numbers to make them viable. That's why Rogues are underpowered.
This is also why I would put Paragon Surge Oracles into Tier "0" since they pretty much have all the options.
So your argument is that Wizards might be overpowered... because their paradigm is overpowered... So... in short... Wizards are overpowered.
Tiers do not really work in PF like they did in 3.5
The purpose of the tiers is to show which classes should not play with each other for inter party balance to be close. Like tier 4s should not play with tier 1s.
In PF though some classes may do a role better than other classes, but all the classes can play with each other.
Tiers do not really work in PF like they did in 3.5
The purpose of the tiers is to show which classes should not play with each other for inter party balance to be close. Like tier 4s should not play with tier 1s.
In PF though some classes may do a role better than other classes, but all the classes can play with each other.
All the classes can play with each other in 3.5 also and the same will be true. The balance in PF did very little other then very slightly push Clerics and Druids down (but not so much they left Tier 1).
|
|
Tiers do not really work in PF like they did in 3.5
The purpose of the tiers is to show which classes should not play with each other for inter party balance to be close. Like tier 4s should not play with tier 1s.
In PF though some classes may do a role better than other classes, but all the classes can play with each other.
That's not what it's designed for at all. You can have a Fighter and Wizard in the same party just fine, but the amount of effort used to keep both engaged and viable is the issue. PF is not some grand step up from 3.5, it's the same game with some nice additions.
The tiers didn't shift a lot, aside from some notable examples.
Paladins are up due to lacking MADness, better smite, and other little boost.
Barbarians have new ways to deal with things that they couldn't with Spell Sunder.
Rogues lost their skill niche through the new mechanics and the ease of picking up class skills through traits and such. I'd consider the Rogue high T5, but there just isn't the same place for them anymore.
Tiers do not really work in PF like they did in 3.5
The purpose of the tiers is to show which classes should not play with each other for inter party balance to be close. Like tier 4s should not play with tier 1s.
In PF though some classes may do a role better than other classes, but all the classes can play with each other.
That's not what it's designed for at all. You can have a Fighter and Wizard in the same party just fine, but the amount of effort used to keep both engaged and viable is the issue. PF is not some grand step up from 3.5, it's the same game with some nice additions.
The tiers didn't shift a lot, aside from some notable examples.
Paladins are up due to lacking MADness, better smite, and other little boost.
Barbarians have new ways to deal with things that they couldn't with Spell Sunder.
Rogues lost their skill niche through the new mechanics and the ease of picking up class skills through traits and such. I'd consider the Rogue high T5, but there just isn't the same place for them anymore.
Martials were really pushed up to being the most reliable source of damage while casters can focus on CC, BFC, and buffs.
Buffs to both power attack and the flat to-hit bonus is really important.
Rogue are still viable, but they are tough to pull off. A lot of that has to do with people's low expectations for the class (I'll only to decent damage when flanked in melee)
Caster spells were stealth nerfed. Many exploits were closed, but the biggest nerfs were to for clerics their spell that gave them full BAB, and for everyone else the nerfs to polymorph. This prevents casters (sans druid) from being better at melee combat than martials.
In 3.5 fullcasters where just better at everything than everyone. PF does a lot to prevent that.
One of the reasons wizards rank so highly on these things is because it's not that hard to get lots of spells (that is of course their class feature) and versatility can come through things like consumables and item creation.
For example, every wizard gets Scribe Scroll by default. When I'm playing a wizard, I tend to keep a couple of scrolls around of spells that I don't want to prepare all the time because they are highly situational. For example, I might carry around a knock scroll (in addition to putting a rank or two into Disable Device). I might carry a scroll of wind wall even if I don't expect to encounter archers, because we might. A scroll of tongues or even comprehend languages is a good thing to have around in some cases, just in case you meet an NPC who no one can speak to.
These are all easy ways to keep options alive during an adventure and thus maximize your versatility. Further, since you craft at 1/2 cost, you can cannibalize the scrolls you make to put into other items later.
For example, if I have a lot of 1st level scrolls left over, I can sell them off at 1/2 price and put it towards crafting some 2nd level scrolls, and I'm not losing anything.
In many cases, I can also craft pearls of power which can allow me to be a pseudo-spontaneous caster. For example, if I can prepare 4 1st level spells and have 2 peals of power I, I have 6 total castings per day, and 2 of those castings are re-casts of one of the previous 4.
Thus I might prepare mage armor, shield, magic missile, and charm person. Now charm person only affects humanoids, so if I didn't know what I was going up against, it might be a big waste of a spell slot that could have been another magic missile (which works on most things) or shield (which is good but has a short duration at low levels). Except now, I effectively have 1+X of each spell prepared, where X is the number of remaining pearls of power.
Martials were really pushed up to being the most reliable source of damage while casters can focus on CC, BFC, and buffs.
...
In 3.5 fullcasters where just better at everything than everyone. PF does a lot to prevent that.
I'd like to go on record for saying I agree with you, so please don't think I'm poking fun at you or anything. But given what you have said here, why have you been fighting this idea tooth and nail over in This Thread?
Feel free to respond to this question in the other thread or in PM, as to not derail this thread. I'm just very confused.
All the 3.5 players I know consider wizards to be buffed overall, and that any nerfs were kind of a joke. The new skill system helps casters more than mundanes, which seems like a problem
If spell X, Y, and Z are gamebreakers, and you remove spell Y, it doesn't really make the class any worse, they just don't use spell Y, if that makes sense
Well, chock me down as one of the 3.5 (even 3.0) players that will swear that the casters were toned down. Seriously, sorcerers were tier 2 in 3.5 and they got bubkis for class features.
HD: d4
Skill Points: 2
Saves: Good will
Class features: Summon Familiar (and nothing else)
The power of casters is their spells. It has always been their spells. It will always be their spells unless someone can come up with class features that rival their spells (and hexes aren't that class feature).
Now if you re-introduce lots of broken spells into the game, yes you have an issue. But spells are your class features, and just like every other class, if you have OP class features it leads to an OP class.
A common tactic for Barbarian's is to get bigger from enlarge or another source. Also, if they are using a reach weapon, the reach just got larger. Due to this, they can easily hit enemies that are using reach tactics against them.
Also, rage cycling is easily obtained from the stubborn cord of resolve item without needing to dip into oracle.
Many spells are still broken, is the point.
They aren't broken on their own, mostly, but often in combination with other spells they are pretty powerful.
The guys I played with were MTG players, so they were really good at figuring out strong patterns, as it isn't that different in different games.
I'm curious as to what they were doing exactly. It's no big secret that certain spells combo nicely together. Some have little use beyond setting someone up for something else (for example, debuff spells and effects are setups for bigger hits).
But I'm a dirty power gamer, and the worst combination of spells in core that I've seen basically involves turning ethereal while remaining within the 60 ft. LoS of projected image to cast spells by proxy, and even that's not really a big deal at the level it comes into play because it's a tactic that becomes useless if anyone else uses ethereal jaunt or etherealness.
Anything that lacks teleport loses to the combo of maze + forcecage.
It is pretty simple, especially when you have the robe that gives you maze.
That is just one, there were more
By the time maze + forcecage is a thing, so is dimension door on items is a thing too. Or if you're a barbarian, spell sunder.
My experience is somewhat different from a lot of the people here.
In a well designed adventure, you don't need to use lots of magic. Sure, you could teleport to where you're going, but if you need to and don't have a character who can do that, it's a sign that your GM hates you. Later on, you can generally UMD your way past such problems.
And while there are lots of abusable high level spells, a good GM will say 'no, you can't use blood magic and simulacra like that'. And that's really only at the levels where the game starts to break down anyway.
To me, a character only feels overpowered if they are (a) virtually indestructible, and (b) can defeat enemies quickly.
For example, a wizard with a poor fortitude save will have lots of powers and options, but sooner or later they're going to find themselves nauseated, stunned, disintegrated, etc.
A paladin with an AC of 40 and incredible saves and the ability to smite a boss to death in one round, on the other hand, does feel overpowered.
|
I'd say that barbarians are noncasters done right.
But Superstitious is a must have. Not only because it's great (it is, though, a 12th level barbarian with Superstitious, the human favored class bonus and a +2 courageous, furious weapon gains a +10 bonus on saves), but because it's a prerequisite for a number of great Rage Powers (Witch Hunter, Ghost Rager, Spell Sunder, Eater of Magic).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My own tier list would be
T1: Wizard, Witch, Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Sorc, Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Summoner , Magus, Ranger, Paladin, Antipaladin, Barbarian, Ninja, Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Monk. That i make
T2: Wizard, Witch, Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Sorc, Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Summoner , Magus, Ranger, Paladin, Antipaladin, Barbarian, Ninja, Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Monk. That you make
T3: Commoner, Warrior, Expert and Aristocrat. That i make
T4: Commoner, Warrior, Expert and Aristocrat. That you make
T5: Arcane Archer
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When the DM and the Wizard get in an arms race, the Rogue gets caught in the crossfire.
Instead of playing the game with the players, the DM has to play a different game with wizards and oracles than he does with fighters.
What game is that?