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Depend on the campaign. Wizard/Sorcerer in general have the most tools to deal with any situations that the dm can throw at them, which is actually the biggest reason that they are considered power classes.
For example in an undead focused campaign, Paladin and Cleric are going to destroy hordes of undead with holy powers and magic that would put most Wizards and Sorcerers to shame.
Squishy wizard/sorcerer
Or you could just be a druid with the same or better levels of battlefield control and not being squishy.
@Rerednaw
You know you listed most of the classes in the game?
Commoner. If a PC is playing a commoner, there are lots of mechanical issues that crop up.
Synthesyst still have half-actions. We have one in our current RotRL game. We're level 7 and he has already peaked out in terms of relative power.
Put me down with the "summoners are stronger than synthesists" camp. More actions and the eidolon is expendable.
Synthesyst still have half-actions. We have one in our current RotRL game. We're level 7 and he has already peaked out in terms of relative power.
I'm playing a Synthesist. I've reached level 7. I haven't come close to peaking. I still haven't taken a real hit point of damage. I doubt I'll peak any time soon. I picked up heroism and fire shield. I expect to be one of the few classes able to use fire shield in melee. I'm also getting good use out of Arcane Strike.
Synthesist seems pretty damn tough.
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A properly built synthasist is darn near immortal; summoners suffer from that "squishy in the back" issue. They can also take feat lines real eidilons can't, like trip lines. They have more attack and damage than a barbarian, better saves than a monk, and are full casters to boot. So yes, Synthasist is the most powerful; though no GM really allows them.
There are "power combos" for most classes these days; the 100 point fireball wizard 7 / sorcerer 1 is certainly "up there"; as is the 10d6 magus and the Lore Warden / Manuever Master. The more books that are around the more you can cherry pick out a perfectly insane character in nearly any feat.
Heck, even rogues get a nod with their "Thug" archtype mixing with any number of classes that can get free intimidate checks (Swashbuckler for instance) to make creatures perpetually run away from you.
I don't get how summoners are the "squishy in the back" any more than clerics are. They are a d8 HD class that can cast in armor. O.o
So yes, Synthasist is the most powerful; though no GM really allows them.
I GMed a game for a synthesist. He was a venerable synthesist with Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int/Wis/Cha = super high. Everyone called him Old Man Pollock. He sat in a rocking chair on the back of the wagon the party traveled around with. He was hilarious. He, unfortunately, was also the only PC who died in that game (well, fortunately for the other PCs that is).
Yep, Master Summoners are the most powerful. Nothing quite like making teams of angels go through the dungeon while the rest of the party has sandwiches outside.
They are glorified one trick ponies.
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Yep, Master Summoners are the most powerful. Nothing quite like making teams of angels go through the dungeon while the rest of the party has sandwiches outside.They are glorified one trick ponies.
Wizards are one-trick ponies. All they do is cast spells.
In a couples of ways
Cleric have good fort save for example. Cleric have more chances to save against drow style poisons for example, if the summoner fail his eidolon get banished.
This is no different than any other character. At low levels, anyone, including the barbarian, is pretty likely to get taken out by an unlucky roll on a saving throw. However, and here's the kicker, delivering that arrow is fairly difficult since you have to get through the summoner's...
AC = 10 + 4 (chain shirt) + dex (+2 is probably fair) + 16.
Then if the summoner is crouching (see combat) he gets a +2 vs ranged attacks.
If the summoner has someone, anyone, including his eidolon or a summon monster between him and the ranged attacker, he gets another +4 to AC from soft cover.
Cleric will have a higher will save.
Not necessarily. Plenty of the clerics I play have a +4 Will save at 1st level. Pretty similar to Summoners who also get the +2 to Will at 1st level.
Another one is the link class feature. Do you want your eidolon to use belt of str or do you want to use a belt of con yourself? Do yyou want your eidolon to have a amulet of migthy fist or do you want an amulet of natural armor for yourself?
Of the summoner can just use all the items and focuson his summon monster abilities but then a master summoner will be a better choise than vanilla summoner.
Not really an issue. Just makes your magic items more expensive. But since summoners are arcane casters, we can take Craft Wondrous item and still get 75% off the effects we get. My eidolon wears a belt of Constitution, and I wear a Vest of Constitution. I wear armor, he gets the bracers.
A synthesyt does not have this conundrum.
That's one of the perks of being a synthesist, just like one of the perks of being a summoner involves having a completely expendable brute, along with completely expendable minions, along with being roughly as hard to kill as a cleric (especially at higher levels where mithral and celestial armors are a valid tactic), along with having more action power.
The synthesist is more vulnerable to CC. If the synthesist is hit with hold person, or sleep, or paralyzed by a mummy's fear, he and his eidolon is out of commission. Meanwhile, if a summoner is hit with hold person, his eidolon is still a threat and is intelligent enough to protect the summoner or even grab up the summoner and retreat with him before he can be coup'd.
Master summoner is prbably the strongest of the three.
Agreed.
The archetypes Zen Archer and Tetori monk seem too powerful to me. Maybe part of the problem is the grappling rules.
wait what
have you played a grappler above level 7?
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I've played Grapplers above level 7; he can grapple down dragons without too much issue :). +32 Grapple check is solid for level 10.
But the Manuever Master is a better grappler (and manuever character) than the Tetori; they do have the one-trick option to overcome Freedom of Movement, but that's it.
No.The summoner shares the slots with the eidolon. If you buy an amulet of migthy fist so your eidolon hit harder and bypass Dr then the summoner can not use the neck slot.
The same for every other slot.
So, does the eidolon hit harder or the summoner have more AC/hit points?...
Please read my posts if you're going to respond to them.
Please read my posts if you're going to respond to them.
No.The summoner shares the slots with the eidolon. If you buy an amulet of migthy fist so your eidolon hit harder and bypass Dr then the summoner can not use the neck slot.
The same for every other slot.
So, does the eidolon hit harder or the summoner have more AC/hit points?...
Ok, my bad.
Your arguments need custom magic items and I rather prefer to not go there.
It's not a custom. It's part of the standard rules. You don't have to homebrew a magic item. It's just a standard rule that adding different item abilities together costs +50% more.
RAW, you can put a ring of protection effect on a ring of sustenance for +50% cost. No homebrewing necessary.
I don't think Vest of Constitution is standard however. I'm pretty sure they condensed the stat boosters to belts and headbands for physical and mental stats respectively for a reason.
That's fair. But in either case it just means you add it to a different thing, hence the +50%. Okay, so my eidolon gets an amulet of natural armor and mighty fists. Okay, I have a cloak of resistance and natural armor.
In either case, I'm still getting a 25% discount off the market value 'cause I'm crafting it myself. If I wanted to be cute about it, I can grab Extra Traits + Alluring for my Eidolon and start picking up item creation feats on my eidolon, so we can both craft during our downtime.
Cloak of Natural Armor isn't a standard thing either.
Yep. A summoner has a gold tax to share items with his eidolon.
How accurate would this tier list be?
You forgot the cavalier. Should be in Tier 6.
*takes bait*
Yep, Master Summoners are the most powerful. Nothing quite like making teams of angels go through the dungeon while the rest of the party has sandwiches outside.They are glorified one trick ponies.
Summon Monster is among the least one-trick-ponyish abilities in the entire corpus of Pathfinder rules.
How accurate would this tier list be?
Tier 1:
Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, Half-elf paragon surge oracleTier 2:
Oracle, Summoner, SorcererTier 3:
Inquisitor, Magus, Bard, AlchemistTier 4:
Ranger, Paladin, BarbarianTier 5:
Gunslinger, Zen archer monk, Fighter, NinjaTier 6:
Rogue, Monk, Cavalier, SamuraiThe power level goes from left to right. The list is relative to each other, and does not mean the top do not have weaknesses.
The general idea is that Full casters > Spontaneous Casters > Battlecasters > 1/3rd casters > Mundanes.
To be honest these lines seem very obvious to me, I could be wrong about the placement in each tier but I have never seen anything that would make me put them a tier higher or lower.
You think the battle casters are better against the environment than even an average geared optimized barbarian? I think Superstitious Invulnerable Rager Beast Totem barbarian should be in the same tier as he Magus. They can kill faster than any of those classes except possibly the Magus. The ability to move from target to target getting full attacks in melee is extremely powerful on top of reducing every physical attack by a substantial amount as well as being able to attack an opponent first when they are attacked.
You think the battle casters are better against the environment than even an average geared optimized barbarian? I think Superstitious Invulnerable Rager Beast Totem barbarian should be in the same tier as he Magus. They can kill faster than any of those classes except possibly the Magus. The ability to move from target to target getting full attacks in melee is extremely powerful on top of reducing every physical attack by a substantial amount as well as being able to attack an opponent first when they are attacked.How accurate would this tier list be?
Tier 1:
Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, Half-elf paragon surge oracleTier 2:
Oracle, Summoner, SorcererTier 3:
Inquisitor, Magus, Bard, AlchemistTier 4:
Ranger, Paladin, BarbarianTier 5:
Gunslinger, Zen archer monk, Fighter, NinjaTier 6:
Rogue, Monk, Cavalier, SamuraiThe power level goes from left to right. The list is relative to each other, and does not mean the top do not have weaknesses.
The general idea is that Full casters > Spontaneous Casters > Battlecasters > 1/3rd casters > Mundanes.
To be honest these lines seem very obvious to me, I could be wrong about the placement in each tier but I have never seen anything that would make me put them a tier higher or lower.
but that is the Barbarian's only Trick, Damage
Shrugging off spells doesn't count because you also shrug off buffs from your allies
and that DR takes a while to build, plus the Raging HP total, while useful in raging combats. is useless when rage cycling and protects you from maybe one level appropriate enemy full attack
a Barbarian's Role is melee combat, but it is all they can do effectively
the paladin can heal out of combat and remove conditions, can serve as a party face, has similar saving throws, and has a variety of utilitarian spells
the ranger can heal out of combat, can serve as a scout and trapfinder, with the right build can be a face, makes a better archer, and can track. plus the ranger has utilitarian spells
a barbarian just fights really good in melee.
But the thing you have to remember is... Barbarians can kill things faster than most anyone. A raging CAGM Barb or a RAGELANCEPOUNCE is a VERy terrifying thing and will straight WRECK your team. AM Barbarian is also sheer rediculous...
But the thing you have to remember is... Barbarians can kill things faster than most anyone. A raging CAGM Barb or a RAGELANCEPOUNCE is a VERy terrifying thing and will straight WRECK your team. AM Barbarian is also sheer rediculous...
Barbarians are good at killing stuff
if i entered the Underground or the Abyss and i could bring a pouncing superstitious invulnerable rager barbarian with me, i would
but for the traps, i'd rather have an urban ranger or archaeologist bard
for spells, i'd rather have a witch, wizard, sorcerer, or arcanist
for infiltrating a ball run by a noble, i'd rather have have a bard
for healing, i'd rather have a cleric or life oracle
if i was on the vanguard for an army, i'd rather have a bard
How accurate would this tier list be?
Tier 1:
Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, Half-elf paragon surge oracleTier 2:
Oracle, Summoner, SorcererTier 3:
Inquisitor, Magus, Bard, AlchemistTier 4:
Ranger, Paladin, BarbarianTier 5:
Gunslinger, Zen archer monk, Fighter, NinjaTier 6:
Rogue, Monk, Cavalier, SamuraiThe power level goes from left to right. The list is relative to each other, and does not mean the top do not have weaknesses.
The general idea is that Full casters > Spontaneous Casters > Battlecasters > 1/3rd casters > Mundanes.
To be honest these lines seem very obvious to me, I could be wrong about the placement in each tier but I have never seen anything that would make me put them a tier higher or lower.
I'd bump the Ranger and Paladin up to tier 3. They are very well rounded and have a lot of problem solving. It's difficult to put a Paladin or Ranger in a situation they can't do something in. Both of them have some really good problem solving spells. Rangers even have the coveted freedom of movement on their spell list.
Tier 0;
Oracle (w/ Paragon Surge and Eldritch Heritage, Arcane)
Tier 1:
Wizard, Witch, Cleric, Druid, oracle (w/ Paragon Surge) sorcerer (w/ Paragon Surge), Arcanist*
Tier 2:
Oracle, Summoner, Sorcerer, Shaman*
Tier 3:
Inquisitor, Magus, Bard, Alchemist, Hunter*, Warpriest* Investigator* Skald*
Tier 4:
Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Gunslinger, monk (w/ Zen Archer and Quinggong Archetypes), Fighter, Bloodrager* Slayer* Brawler* Swashbuckler* Adept
Tier 5:
Ninja, Rogue, Monk, Cavalier, Samurai, Expert, Warrior, Aristocrat, Racial Hit Dice of the Dragon and Outsider type
Tier 6
Commoner, any Racial Hit die that isn't Dragon or Outsider
the tiers, including NPC classes and playtest classes from advanced class guide
Why is Shaman Tier 2? It's a prepared Spell caster with the druid spell list, plus some extras, as well as limited spontaneous casting not dissimilar from the arcanist, though much more limited.
My 1-20 rankings. Being greater at high levels doesn't save you from sucking it up at low levels
Tier 0; Not always the most powerful, but broken and not expected to ever see the light of actual play
Mechanics abusing builds, paragon surge, blood money, ect.
Tier 1; Druid, Cleric, Witch, Master Summoner, Wizard who really knows what they are doing
Tier 2; Sorcerer, Oracle, Wizard, Bard, Summoners, Broken Barbar builds
Tier 3; Barbarian, Paladin, Magus, Alchemist, Synthesis
Tier 4; Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Ninja
Tier 5; Non-functional NPC classes
Tier ?; Inquisitor, Gunslinger, ect. (haven't delved into the class enough)
IMHO Bards tend to be underrated while Rangers tend to be overrated
My 1-20 rankings. Being greater at high levels doesn't save you from sucking it up at low levels
Tier 0; Not always the most powerful, but broken and not expected to ever see the light of actual play
Mechanics abusing builds, paragon surge, blood money, ect.Tier 1; Druid, Cleric, Witch, Master Summoner, Wizard who really knows what they are doing
Tier 2; Sorcerer, Oracle, Wizard, Bard, Summoners, Broken Barbar builds
Tier 3; Barbarian, Paladin, Magus, Alchemist, Synthesis
Tier 4; Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Ninja
Tier 5; Non-functional NPC classes
Tier ?; Inquisitor, Gunslinger, ect. (haven't delved into the class enough)
IMHO Bards tend to be underrated while Rangers tend to be overrated
I find it amusing that Ranger is placed on the same tier as all the classes he outclasses at the same time.
Why is Shaman Tier 2? It's a prepared Spell caster with the druid spell list, plus some extras, as well as limited spontaneous casting not dissimilar from the arcanist, though much more limited.
the limited selection from the druid spell list, and the lack of other major powerful druidic features such as wildshape, animal companion, and other things that round it out, as well as the lack of buffs to make it CODZilla
the Reason the Druid and Cleric were tier 1, was not just their spellcasting alone, but the fact they could both cast and fight at the same time, and that both had a variety of buffs to make them nastier, and the ability to utilize those buffs
a Druid with neither wildshape, nor an animal companion, would be tier 2, as would a druid whom traded their animal companion for a familiar and their wildshape for hexes
the Druid spell list on it's own isn't very impressive compared to other full casters, it was the fact they had the spell list, wildshape, and an animal companion that made them deadly
the druid has many delays in it's spell list, and while the shaman gets around some of the spell list problems, it's a spell list highly limited with a lot of it's better spells.
not that there aren't a few game changers, but the cleric and wizard lists, have more game changers, and better game changers.
I find it amusing that Ranger is placed on the same tier as all the classes he outclasses at the same time.
It's a broad tier. I'm not sold on the idea of Rangers being better martials than fighters. They can fight+skill monkey better than rogues, but you need to shore up their class list with traits, while other classes can use those traits to shore up their saves.
Ranger animal companions come late, and the ranger doesn't have the spells a druid does to keep ACs awesome.
I also find the whole favored enemy/terrain thing to be a complete mess. Instant enemy helps.
The Ranger's AC gets Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain, and you can pick up a feat for full progression. It can fight just fine compared to the Druid's.