|
There will be spoilers for all the AP's in this thread (including the Dungeon ones) so be warned.
Also be aware this is a minor niggle. I love the AP's generally and I have every pathfinder volume and all the Dungeon AP's.
On to my issue.
I recently purchased both Savage Tide and Age of Worms and reading through them I am struck by the epic nature of both these AP's. This led me to think "why are the BBEG's less epic in the Pathfinder AP's?" And recently it struck me, it's because we rarely get to fight the true BBEG's of the Golarion setting we instead get to fight pale shadows and lieutenants. The second tier so to speak.
To illustrate what I mean I'll go through the BBEG's of the AP's in order.
I'm playing in Second Darkness atm so I can't comment here
Compare this to:
So that leads me to ask. Why haven't we taken on Geb? Or Treerazer? Or the Whispering Tyrant? Or Razmir? Why in other words are Paizo playing it safe and not giving us the real iconic bad guys to oppose? They did in the Dungeon AP's so what's holding Paizo back?
Am I alone in thinking this?
Haven't clicked on any of the spoilers (playing in many of the games), but the Pathfinder APs only go up to the mid-teen levels rather than level 20, as I believe the Dungeon APs did. That limits how Big and Bad the BBEG can be if the PCs are supposed to do anything other than die abjectly.
Also, the Pathfinder APs are set in Paizo's own proprietary setting of Golarion where they don't want to eliminate the iconic high-level threats or invalidate their campaign setting material. Golarion is intentionally a static world so people can play the APs and modules in any order. The death or defeat of major world players would make that impossible.
|
|
The big bads of both the Dungeon AP's I have mentioned were CR 33 and "so powerful CR doesn't count." You can easily find a way of lowering the power of epic bad guys to make them a challenge.
Your second point is one of my major irritations. A static campaign setting is a stagnant campaign setting. I personally think Paizo is being too precious. Besides eliminating any of the four suggestions I made at the end of my first post wouldn't make a lick of difference to any of the AP's.
I'm not saying we should have constant updates like oWoD or Legend of the Five Rings because that becomes a nightmare. I do think however that the world shouldn't be set in amber.
James Jacobs recently said in a thread about the Eye of Abendego that there was a plan with Golarion. But if the world is static and we get no development at all then what's the point.
I'm tired of fighting (and running) the second string bad guys. Give me Major League bad guys not AAA.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of the biggest and most common complaints about RPG settings come from major world developments and big moves in the timeline. Just look at all the angst surrounding Forgotten Realms (the major plot developments between 1st edition and 2nd; 2nd edition and 3.0; 3rd and 4th).
While I’m sure some people liked these changes, many many players who were invested in the setting hated them. The big shake up going into 4th edition gets the most recent publicity (“They killed the Realms!”), but I know of people who still play in pre- Time of Troubles FR and basically ignore anything released for the setting afterwards.
Big changes and advances in the Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Dark Sun and Ravenloft settings have caused similar (if perhaps less published) angst. I remember reading somewhere recently that a big change in the Dark Sun setting fairly early in its publication history (killing of the setting’s major big bads) pretty much killed the setting.
It really doesn’t make much sense for Paizo to be publishing major, world shattering current events for their setting, or killing off major iconic BBEGs this early in Golarion’s publication history – it invalidates too much of their (still sellable) back catalogue and risks alienating a significant portion of their fan base.
Having said that, if you want to have your PCs face off against and defeat the campaign’s big bads at 15th / 16th level at the climax of the Adventure Paths, in many cases it’s about as simple as changing a name, slightly altering a few plot points and maybe creating an additional stat block. I’m a bit hazy on the fine details of the plots for some of the APs I read a while back, but the way I see it …
Curse of the Crimson Throne: Ileosa is the queen of the kingdom that the bulk of the AP is set within; as far as big bads go she’s pretty much the top of the heap in the context of the campaign. But if you want more, have the crown metamorph her into that blue dragon dude for the final battle, or have her complete the ritual to turn into Sorshen (sp?).
Legacy of Fire: Sub out the efreet in the AP for the Sultan of the City of Brass instead. Or have his plan accidently free Xotani and the PCs have to fight it at the end … maybe the efreet’s whole plan came out of being subliminally influenced by Xotani.
Council of Thieves: I agree that this one was potentially something of a wasted opportunity, I would have liked to see something bigger and better from (what might be the only) Cheliax AP. Having said that, not every AP needs to be epic, and as the AP that ends at the lowest level (I think) having the campaign end with finishing off the city’s big crime bosses is maybe not so bad.
Carrion Crown: All along AA’s plan in creating the Carrion Crown potion has been to turn himself into a lich vessel for the Whispering Tyrant. He didn’t need the count except for part of him as one ingredient. At the campaign climax atop the tower he drinks the potion, transforms into a true lich and allows the Whispering Tyrant’s soul to inhabit him – effectively the PCs fight the Whispering Tyrant himself.
Kingmaker: The nymph is a fairly suitable villain, she just needs to be foreshadowed a lot more. Alternatively, change her name and make her one of the Eldest (banished and somewhat diminished in power). OR, change a few things here and there in the AP to make the Kign of Pitax behind ALL the troubles and finish the campaign early with his defeat.
Jade Regent: Call the leader of the Five Storms the King of All Oni. Solved. Or make him the oni Voidlord who already rules the neighbouring kingdom.
And that whole thing 'CR 30+ but somehow depowered to appropriate CR' would be getting old.
|
|
I agree that Paizo shouldn't do a forgotten realms type constant update. But as things stand nothing is being changed at all. It's a campaign setting that has so much potential but that potential is being wasted because there is no development of any kind.
The big bads of the setting are just not being used. There are no apocalyptic threats to deal with in the AP's (well OK one is apocalyptic) and with most of them if you lose the world still goes on with maybe a new BBEG to contend with. I want the threat to mean something. If another PC party can solve the problem after my death then it's not epic enough. Basically the stakes are too low.
Also I changing the name and type of the major BBEG doesn't address the problem. The scale of AP's have diminished right from the beginning. Now coming up I don't think Skull and Shackles will have a truly world threatening plot (I am playing it so I could be wrong) and Shattered Star doesn't even seem to have a threat beyond "stop others from reaching the magic football..." James Jacobs himself has said that the BBEG of this campaign is not the main focus. This worries me.
Looks like I am alone on this though.
Develop it in you're own campaign...
Campaign settings are meant to be stories in and of themselves, rather they are meant as the settings for stories.
In regards to LoF, the PCs do have a chance to fight the bigger and badder enemy, if things play out that way.
Also, Treerazer exists in the Inner Sea World Guide. There's nothing stopping a GM running Kingmaker to extend the life of the AP by making him the true BBEG. In fact, I might just do that now.
Actually, I am pretty sure James Jacobs has stated that Shattered Star takes place after the events of Rise, Curse, and Second Darkness. So there is progression. There may not be world-shaking progression, but there is progression.
|
FallofCamelot, first let me say *I* agree with ya. I'd love to see some more truly epic, potentially region-shattering APs to the tune of AoW or ST.
But the main problem is -as others have pointed out- pacing of the APs. They're designed to end at 15-17th level. You're just not going to get to the truly BBEGs at those levels.
I mean look back at AoW. My own PCs were on track to be 22nd level taking on Kyuss (we had to end the campaign early, but they were on track). My friend ran it to the end and his PCs were 21st level.
And the more recent book 6's do include the "Continuing the Campaign" sections that give some suggestions on how to take on some epic BBEGs. Not really satisfying for someone (like me) that just doesn't have time to write out further adventures, but it's something.
Bottom Line: I don't think you'll see truly epic BBEGs until you see an AP that takes you all the way to 20th level. Which I honestly don't see any time soon and I can live with that. Shrug.
Just my 2cp.
|
The world can remain static and interesting by having adventures which are, essentially: "Stop the brand-new BBEG from changing the world in terrible ways."
That's the plot of every Paizo AP except for Kingmaker. Even Jade Regent restores the happy status quo.
That's why having more Sandpoints is so important: AP heroes don't change the world, they save it.
RotRL gives you a place worth saving, it is adored.
SD does not, it is not.
So, I think fighting Tar-Baphon or Nex should be saved for homebrew but fighting a brand-new BBEG who is equally scary is great for an AP.
Umm... regarding CotC...
Yeah, it's cool that the APs don't have a world-changing event every time. If you tried to follow any of TSR's worlds, it was tough if you missed an adventure. I was really confused when I compared my friends' copies of Ravenloft- one from the box set, the other from the hardback later. They weren't the same setting at all.
If you follow the canon it seems like big events would be cool, but think of the copies of The Inner Sea World Guide sitting in warehouses. If the Whispering Tyrant came back and then died (it's assumed that PCs win adventure paths), what would you have to do to amend the book?
Personally, I'm doing what I want with the world, and Arazni is likely going to die for it...
Regarding CotCT, CoT, RotRL
It's as valid as saying Karzoug is a pawn of his flaming glaive.
Also, Mammon the nascent demon lord, was the BBEG+ in Council of Thieves, not the House of Thrune. /nitpick
|
Regarding CotCT, CoT, RotRL
** spoiler omitted **
Not to nit-pick further, but...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of the challenges Paizo has set up for themselves is consistently running games on the Medium XP track. The 3.5 APs essentially ran on the Fast XP track, which allowed them to go to higher levels in the same amount of time.
While I'm a fan of the Medium XP track for story purposes, a Fast XP track could represent a more action-movie oriented campaign with a save-the-world ending.
The elephant in the room is that Paizo seems to shy away from writing adventures over 16th level. They've introduced villains for 20th-level characters, but only in sourcebooks. I understand that high-level writing is a challenge; however, that would be why I would want Paizo to give me some material in that direction - they are, after all, the professionals.
Regarding CotCT, CoT, RotRL
** spoiler omitted **
Not to nit-pick further, but...
** spoiler omitted **
Same thing! You got me though.
|
|
I understand that high-level writing is a challenge; however, that would be why I would want Paizo to give me some material in that direction - they are, after all, the professionals.
Paizo have intimated on many occasions that high-level simply does not sell as well as mid and low level stuff. They have a financial incentive to steer clear of the top end.
I understand that high-level writing is a challenge; however, that would be why I would want Paizo to give me some material in that direction - they are, after all, the professionals.Paizo have intimated on many occasions that high-level simply does not sell as well as mid and low level stuff. They have a financial incentive to steer clear of the top end.
That, and they have also said they do not want to address higher-levels unless or until they have 20th-level plus rules in place. Current designs top out at 16th level or so because CR 20 is APL + 4, making an appropriate end-game challenge for 16th level characters.
The elephant in the room is that Paizo seems to shy away from writing adventures over 16th level. They've introduced villains for 20th-level characters, but only in sourcebooks. I understand that high-level writing is a challenge; however, that would be why I would want Paizo to give me some material in that direction - they are, after all, the professionals.
But that reasoning, The Shattered Star, is somewhat of a missed opportunity. By having a sequel to the RotRL/CotCT, this would have been a good opportunity for a different kind of AP.
|
|
Regarding CotCT, CoT, RotRL
** spoiler omitted **
I disagree with your analysis of Kazavon's influence over Ileosa (or as you would put it the lack thereof.) It is straight up stated in the AP that Ileosa would never have done what she does in the course of the campaign if she hadn't found the Fangs of Kazavon. Whilst she is the main big bad of the AP (and rightfully so) she is changed immensely by finding the fangs.
|
|
The elephant in the room is that Paizo seems to shy away from writing adventures over 16th level. They've introduced villains for 20th-level characters, but only in sourcebooks. I understand that high-level writing is a challenge; however, that would be why I would want Paizo to give me some material in that direction - they are, after all, the professionals.But that reasoning, The Shattered Star, is somewhat of a missed opportunity. By having a sequel to the RotRL/CotCT, this would have been a good opportunity for a different kind of AP.
Book 1: 15th Level
Book 2: 16th Level
Book 3: 17th Level
Book 4: 18th Level
Book 5: 19th Level
Book 6: 20st Level
I like high level gaming but that AP would never have sold. It would have been a financial disaster for Paizo to do this.
I think it's largely that they're leery of diverging too far from the successful format which underpins their business. Rather than something that different, James jacobs has mentioned experimenting with something like a 5 instalment AP followed by a 7 instalment AP.* if they did that, they'd have an easier time getting to the very high levels.
* he definitely didn't say they were going to do it, or even that they were considering it. It was just a "maybe...possibly...one day..." thing.
The thiing with the dungeon adventure paths is the BBEG were not really central figures in the world. They were both iconic because of their history in the game not the setting IMO. The one from age of worms was pretty obscure in greyhawk lore, and even the one from savage tide isn't a main player in greyhawk historically IMO. They are iconic for other reasons.
Treerazer, Rasmir and Geb are relevant to countries in Golarion. They are the equivalent of an adventure path against Iuz, or Ivid the undying or Vecna. End them and the world is no longer as it was ( although i suppose someone could replace them but that ' you didnt actually change anything' is a bit tiresome except for maybe with repsect to the abyss. I mean if my party takes out Treerazer i want it to really change the world, not just mean his flunky Shrubrazer steps into his shoes.)Tar-Baphon the imprisoned lich king could be a potential villain as he has no real impact on the world except for that malevolent hard to kill evil thing.
Two of the nine paizo adventure paths you mention get a pass for providing a big enough villain. So about 1 in 4 adventure paths change the whole world? Once every 2 years? Seems about right to me.
I also am not sure golarion has been around long enough to have iconic villains like the two in the dungeon mags, I mean those guys had been in the game for 20+ years. They had history.
Don't get me wrong I would love to go up against any of the bbeg you mentioned, or the house of thrune. But I just don't think paizo want to make such a chunk of their material outdated - the dungeon mags didn't do this to greyhawk ( unless you lost I guess)
** spoiler omitted **Regarding CotCT, CoT, RotRL
** spoiler omitted **
There are a lot of bad guys all around the world. I'm sure I could find a bunch of "The BBEG should have been... instead of..." for each AP based purely on location. CoT is already kind of meh, but I'm just tired of people making it out to be horrible because you don't like upend the entire campaign setting and free Cheliax over six books.
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's a specific reason why we've skewed relatively "non-epic" for our Adventure Paths—at the time we'd finished Savage Tide, there was a LOT of customer feedback along the lines of "Why does every Adventure Path end with a super powerful outsider/god and the PCs saving the world? Why can't it end with a human wizard and the PCs saving something like a nation or a city?"
Which is why we chose the plots we did for the first few Adventure Paths—the public was calling for Adventure Paths where the PCs faced the likes of more human, less outlandish foes.
Further hampering things, of course, is the fact that with the Dungeon APs we were able to pull upon decades of D&D nostalgia and established plotlines—we could have bad guys that folks recognized. We couldn't do that when we launched Pathfinder at the start.
The lack of a solid set of rules for what happens beyond CR 25 (or 20th level for PCs) is also a problem.
I think that the first of those two problems is gone, more or less—at 5 years in to the world's game life cycle, we've got plenty of epic foes to pick from who are established characters in the world (such as what we're starting to do with Skull & Shackles, Shattered Star, and beyond).
The second of those two problems is still a problem though... For now, at least.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like many others, I really disagree on the matter of Curse of the Crimson Throne.
** spoiler omitted **
Evil's a hell of a drug.
Once again, your mental imagery is going to linger...
@FallofCamelot:
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
Also, at the end of every AP there are suggestions on how to extend the AP into level 20 if you so wish. Most of the guys you complain are not bad guys the PCs fight could be placed into a finale if you were willing to do the work.
This is of course up to the GM. If they are unwilling to do the work to set everything up then you won't see those big bads.
Like many others, I really disagree on the matter of Curse of the Crimson Throne.
** spoiler omitted **
Evil's a hell of a drug.
Your way with words is quite marvelous. Please finish your CotCT campaign recital soon. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I fully understand the notion of "If I could design my own story I wouldn't be running APs," my thought on the matter is that something as major as taking down the Whispering Tyrant or Razmir is really something best customized to your own players and the stories they've been building up to that point. There's a good bit of room for customization and tweaking in the APs but once you hit the point where the AP leaves off there's even more room to just keep going. If you want to build up to a big final boss fight the players just might enjoy it more if that fight happens on a metaphorical stage built just for them. An encounter on that caliber should be with an opponent who has prepared for it and may in fact have done things like gone out of their way to prepare particular spells or traps for members of the party rather than wait in the back of a dungeon for them to show up.
Ive only finished rise of the runelords, and granted the whole party died :P but had that not happened we as the players had enough info to go after at least one other bad guy, im sure if i tgought about it there were other adventure hooks.
I if an end bad guy with room to do other stuff after is better. Maybe its best to think of it this way.
If your doing tbe captain america adventure path, after you defeat hitler all there is is retirement. But if you defeat romel and dont get frozen for 70 years there is still going after hitler if your dm wants to.
Or your dm can instead run the johnny canuck ap to save italy while hitler remains a threat.
I think this is a good model.
|
|
I'm not a fan of high level, as such. I far prefer low to mid-level, both as a player and as a GM.
But that said, I'm feeling the same thing the OP is. As a consequence, when I decided to start up an AP recently, for a number of factors which touch on how many APs I've played, run, am playing in, or have reviewed, my choices were constrained.
In the end, I decided to run a Golarionized version of the Age of Worms AP under Pathfinder RPG. I ran the first seven modules of that AP previously under 3.5 when it first came out. I've set my Golarion version of the struggle against Groetus' dirty worms thirty years in the future in Golarion. The part of most of the significant NPCs in the AP have been recast with the iconics presented in their later years of life as allies and foes of the heroes. Diamond Lake is in Cheliax.
We are eight sessions in and I must say that I am enjoying it immensely and the players are as well. Frankly every now and then? The players NEED to save the world. It's like all things: moderation is the key. Moderation means some; it doesn't mean none.
It's time for the pendulum to swing back to a full-throated, balls to the wall "save the world" plot in a Paizo AP. Whether that's the World Wound or against the Whispering Tyrant or staving off the release of Rovagug -- the ground looks fertile to me.
If there were "mythic rules" and the only time I would ever use them would be to run such a campaign? That would be enough justification for me.
Rise of the Runelords is a save-the-world AP.
If the players don't stop it then it is a toss-up whether Maug or Karzoug will take over the world first.
Karzoug? Would he trivially conquer Varisia and a bunch of other countries nearby? Sure. But Inner Sea Magic makes it clear that Big K does not have the firepower to take down, say, even the nation of Irrisen (to give an example of a place that's relatively close to "New Shalast"). He would either have to learn to be a bit more cautious and less megalomaniacal and sure that he is invincible than he is against the PCs (probably by getting burned once by a brazen attack against Abrogail Thrune or Elvanna or something) or else he risks an alliance of several of those powers knocking on his door and annihilating him. Now, granted, all those powers are evil, but that doesn't mean they won't protect their own interests.
That said, the idea of a "Legion of Doom" versus Runelords campaign (where the PCs play high-level NPCs from Inner Sea Magic like Elvanna, Abrogail and Arazni and take on an alliance of several Runelords) is actually pretty awesome for a mythic campaign!
When RotRL came out, none of those people existed.
Karzoug was the BBEG wizard who was going to lead his rune giant army to conquer everything.
We've just had BBEG-bloat since then.
Spires of Xin Shalast made it clear that he was going to rebuild Thassilon and become a huge player, not take over the entire world:
Leng Device is Shut Down: When Karzoug emerges from his
prison, it only takes him a few weeks to rally all of the denizens
of Xin-Shalast to his banner. Rune giants, lamia harridans, and
other agents stream down from the Kodar Mountains and begin
to subjugate the giant tribes of the Storval Plateau—in only a
few months’ time, Mokmurian’s army seems like a ratty band of
mercenaries. Before long, Karzoug manages to transplant his ancient
army into Xin-Shalast as well by using the Leng Device, at which point
he immediately becomes one of Golarion’s most powerful figures.
Conquering Varisia is child’s play, and within a year of his rise,
Thassilon is reborn. Defeating Karzoug at this point should be a
fantastically difficult challenge.
Also, at the end of every AP there are suggestions on how to extend the AP into level 20 if you so wish. Most of the guys you complain are not bad guys the PCs fight could be placed into a finale if you were willing to do the work.
This is of course up to the GM. If they are unwilling to do the work to set everything up then you won't see those big bads.
This.
Regarding jade Regent for example, the final book does provide stats for continuing the adventure into higher levels, and confronting the "king of the oni" that the OP requested.
Yes to the OP
I think think they are missing a trick
1. they have said many times they are not (never?) moving the timelime foreward. All APS assume 4710 or close to
Therefore
2. PCS should be able to finish off as many big names as they wish as it will not affect any other canon/APs etc if Asmodeus is killed, Aroden returns, world wound shuts, whispering tyrant is slain etc
|
|
Yes to the OP
I think think they are missing a trick
1. they have said many times they are not (never?) moving the timelime foreward. All APS assume 4710 or close to
Therefore
2. PCS should be able to finish off as many big names as they wish as it will not affect any other canon/APs etc if Asmodeus is killed, Aroden returns, world wound shuts, whispering tyrant is slain etc
1. is wrong...
Which invalidates 2.
The timeline progresses in real-time.
|
|
Most of the APs assume a 4707 start date; this is separate and distinct from the timeline in Pathfinder Society, which moves forward in real time.
Shattered Star assumes that RotRL, CotCT and Second Darkness have occurred. Jade Regent assumes that RotRL, CotCT and SD have occurred.
RotRL, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull, Carrion Crown and Skull and Shackles are all set in their bubble universes of 4707.
But it isn't the metaplot which is the story here or that needs be called into question. The issue is instead whether or not the APs are sufficiently epic enough in terms of their story arcs and the villains they present.
I think there has been an acknowledgement by James Jacobs that the Paizo APs are deliberately designed so they would not be. This suited Paizo's purposes at the time that decision was made in the immediate post-Dungeon era.
Even if Paizo wanted to change it, and even assuming there were Mythic Rules, it's also quite hard to fit in adventures in the encounter ranges at the 17-20th level in a six volume AP path. Dungeon had 12 issues to work with and had about 20-25% more "adventure space" by the time it all shook down. Even still - and even with the "fast XP" track - the combat in Age of Worms was rather relentless at times. To expand an AP to 8 or 9 volumes, say, to "fix" this would be messing with the central tentpole of the brand. You don't do that lightly, if at all.
RotRL, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull, Carrion Crown and Skull and Shackles are all set in their bubble universes of 4707.
Actually, I believe each AP officially begins at the time of its release in the real world plus 2700. It's been stated on the messageboards before, but I'm not sure I can dredge up the quote.
EDIT: Here, he implies that while the calendar continues to count forward, the timeline won't really advance until PfRPG 2.0.
At some point doesn't that become unrealistic? e.g. The "current year" in the PFCCS is 4708. If nothing happens between '08 and '10 in the timeline, it would be a very uneventful world, wouldn't it?Does it advance the timeline?I think Vic mentioned something about 1 game year for every 2 of ours or the other way around. Cant find the thread right now. I'll keep looking.
Hopefully it wont be like FR where it was stuck on DR1358 for like 10 years.
Nope; it's 1 year per real year. To get the current year in Golarion, just add 2700 to our current year.
But we're not planning on advancing the actual events in world anytime soon. We still assume that all our modules and adventures begin on the current day, even though that current day advances ever forward. In other words, we don't want to self-obsolete our products.
At some point, it probalby does. But since we don't plan on revising the Campaign Setting again anytime soon (we'll reprint it, but now that this next version is locked in we won't be further revising it), it's not really going to be a problem.
I suspect we'll not be revising the Inner Sea book again until we get around to doing the 2nd edition of Pathfinder, which is still many, many years in the future.
Even if all the APs did start at the same time, several of them, particularly Kingmaker, take place over a span of years, so while an AP may have started a few years ago in the Golarion timeline, we likely haven't "caught up" to the end of it yet in real time. Pathfinder 2.0 would largely invalidate APs written in the old ruleset, so at that point it would be safe to assume they've all "happened" and won't be "happening" any more.
