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would a Barbarian/fighter lvl 6 with 21 armor class work

Sovereign Court

Kiren Derkly wrote:
would a Barbarian/fighter lvl 6 with 21 armor class work

That's a really bad AC for a frontliner by level 6. That's more of a decent level 1-3 AC. By 6 your AC should be at least 24. 27 or so shouldn't be hard.

Grand Lodge

Kiren Derkly wrote:
would a Barbarian/fighter lvl 6 with 21 armor class work

I wouldn't even worry about AC as a Barbarian. I find that nuts levels of HP and some extra DR is a much better defense. A little harder at 6 than AC, but at 8-10 really starts to shape up.


After a long time searching I can't seem to find anything on dpr and con damage.
see my gm just ruled that called shots are becoming more active and im wondering what packing improved called shot onto a basic falchion fred would be.
Basically assume that the first attack in a full attack is going to the chest, that means the +2 from feat balences the -2
or basically a free 1d4 con damage, 2d4 if the attack is more than half the creatures health (minimum 50)


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Path of War Expanded

Lightning Liz, human mystic 10

Spoiler:

Material used: PoW, PoWEx, UPsi
Ability Scores:
STR: 10 (+0)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 headband)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 68 HP (10d8+20)

Saving Throws:
Fort: +8 Ref: +12 Will: +13

AC: 35, 25ff, 22t

Attacks: +3 keen rapier +16/+11, 1d6+11+2d6, (15-20/x2)

Special Abilities:
Elemental Flux Stance (air): +2d6 electricity damage, +4 dodge AC, +4 init
Animus (4)

BAB: +7

Feats:
H:
1: Weapon Finesse
2B: Deadly Agility
3: Discipline Focus (Elemental Flux)
5: Craft Wondrous Items
7B: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9:

Gear:
62000gp, up to 51500 of which can be used to craft, for 113500 total
32320 +3 keen rapier
10100 +3 mithral chain shirt
5000 +2 mithral light shield
16000 +4 belt of dex
4000 +2 headband of wis
9000 +3 cloak of resistance
8000 +2 ring of protection
8000 +2 amulet of natural armor
21080 left

Liz initiates Assay Resistance (Flux 4) as a swift action, adding 2d6 electricity damage, ignoring 25 points of electricity resistance and all DR with next attack;
activates Fire glyph as a move action, paying 1 point of animus, gaining +2 circumstance bonus to attack and +5 fire damage;
applies Anima Burn (2 animus, +5 damage) and Enhance Maneuver (1 animus, +2 insight to hit) to her next maneuver.
Her single attack becomes +20, 1d6+21+4d6, (15-20/x2). Hit chance is 0.85.

Standard attack (which she can't make, because Anima Burn and Enhance Maneuver only apply to maneuvers):
0.85*(24.5+14)+0.3*2*0.85*24.5=45.22

Elemental Vortex (Flux 5): +8d6 electricity damage:
0.85*(24.5+42)+0.3*2*0.85*24.5=69.02

Time Thief's Talons (Hourglass 5): +2*IL (20) damage:
0.85*(44.5+14)+0.3*2*0.85*44.5=72.42

Note that while Glyphs last multiple rounds, mystic can get only 2 animus per round, so his average DPR will be a bit lower. On other hand, strikes are standard actions.

What do we have here? POW OP OUTDAMAGES BARBARIAN NERF BAN CORE MONK initiator with almost double WBL deals the same damage as an archer while having to be in melee, and fails to outdamage a druid and his kittie, or blaster wizard.

Let's optimize a bit more, shall we?
Liz spends 18k more gp to make her rapier +1 keen shocking collision (UPsi, +5 damage for +2 bonus) one, and spends all the animus on Enhance Maneuver (3 animus, +6 insight to hit). Her single attack becomes
7 bab, 6 dex, 1 weapon, 6 insight, 2 circumstance = +22 to hit
1d6 weapon +6 dex +5 glyph +2 discipline focus +5 collision, +1d6 shocking +2d6 stance +2d6 boost = 1d6+18+5d6 damage

Standard attack:
0.95*(21.5+17.5)+0.3*2*0.95*21.5=49.305

Elemental Vortex:
0.95*(21.5+45.5)+0.3*2*0.95*21.5=75.9

Time Thief's Talons:
0.95*(41.5+17.5)+0.3*2*0.95*41.5=79.705

Still can't outdamage a druid. Synth deals TWICE as much damage. Can I have full spellcasting now?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

How does this look as a final result?

Level 10 Archer
HP 79
AC 27
Saves +7/+15/+7
Base DPR = 124.81
Haste = +24.96


Rebuilt with levels of swashbuckler. Arcane Strike removed. But same basic idea. Uses an Estoc to start, picks up a small estoc for off hand around level 9
Plenty of attacks, a good critical range, and a slight damage boost on criticals due to the killer trait.

Critical Craig 1.1, Half-Elf - Swashbuckler
Material used: ARG, ACG, APG, UC, Ultimate Campaign (UCP), Advanced Class Origins (ACO)

Spoiler:

Race:
Half-Elf - Dual Minded (ARG)

Class:
Swashbuckler (ACG) - Whirling Dervish (ACO)
Fighter - Weapon Master (APG)
Bard - Archaeologist (UC)
Barbarian - Urban Barbarian (UC)

Traits:
Killer (Combat) (UCP), Fate's Favored (Faith) (UCP)

Ability Scores:
STR: 13 (+1)
DEX: 23 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 8 (-1)
WIS: 10 (+0)
CHA: 12 (+1)
HP: 86 HP (9d10+1d8+28)(10+5.5*8+4.5+8(class)+20(con))

Saving Throws:
Fort: +9 1(swashbuckler) +3(fighter) +1(sentinel) +2(con) +2(resistance)
Ref: +15 4(swashbuckler) +1(fighter) +2(bard) +6(dex) +2(resistance)
Will: +8 1(swashbuckler) +1(fighter) +2(bard) +2(dual minded) +2(resistance)

AC: 23 - Touch 18, Flatfooted 16 (+5 +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, +6 dex, +1 Dodge(nimble), +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: +1 Furious Estoc +21/+16, 2d4+13 dmg (15/x2)
9(BAB) +2(greater focus) +6(dex) +1(enhancement) +3(weapon training with gloves) +1(swashbuckler weapon training) +1(competence) -2(two-weapon) = 21
6(dex) + 1(enhancement) + 3(weapon training with gloves) +1(swashbuckler weapon training) +2(specialization) = 13

+1 Small Furious Estoc +19/+14, 2d3+10 dmg (15/x2)
9(BAB) +2(greater focus) +6(dex) +1(enhancement) +3(weapon training with gloves) +1(swashbuckler weapon training) +1(competence) -2(two-weapon) -2(undersize weapon) = 19
3(dex) + 1(enhancement) + 3(weapon training with gloves) +1(swashbuckler weapon training) +2(specialization) = 10

Class Breakdown:
Swashbuckler x5, Fighter, Bard, Fighter, Barbarian, Fighter

Class Abilities:
Merciful
Deeds
Dervish Finesse
Charmed Life
Dervish Dance
Nimble
Swashbuckler Weapon Training
Bardic Knowledge
Archaeologist's Luck
Weapon Guard
Crowd Control
Controlled Rage
Weapon Training (estoc)

BAB: +9 CMB: +10 CMD: 26

Feats:
1st Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Estoc
3rd Weapon Focus - Estoc
4th Weapon Specialization - Estoc (bonus)
5th Power Attack
6th Two-Weapon Fighting (bonus)
7th Extra Performance
8th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (bonus)
9th Extra Rage

Gear: (61,800 gp)
+1 Furious Estoc (8350 gp)
+1 Small Furious Estoc (8350 gp)
Belt of +4 Dex (16000 gp)
Gloves of Dueling (15000 gp)
Pale green cracked ioun stone (attack) (4000 gp)
Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2,100 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)

Craig's Power Attack/Archaeologist's Luck/Rage routine is:
+1 furious estoc +24/+19, 2d4+25 dmg (15/x2), +1 small furious estoc +22/+17, 2d3+18 dmg (15/x2)
(normal 21 -3(power attack) +2(Luck and Fate's) +2(dex increase) +2(furious) =24), (normal 13 +6(power attack) +2(Luck and Fate's) +2(dex increase) +2(furious) = 25)
(normal 19 -3(power attack) +2(Luck and Fate's) +2(dex increase) +2(furious) =22), (normal 10 +3(power attack) +2(Luck and Fate's) +1(dex increase) +2(furious) = 18)

His average damage per round is ~112.58.
An additional +1 to-hit is worth ~4.90 DPR, an additional +1 damage is worth 4.23 DPR, and an additional full-BAB attack is worth ~37.62 DPR. His single-attack damage is ~37.62 DPR


Rebuilt without Arcane Strike. More damage, but fewer hitpoints.
With a falcata and killer, it has some big criticals.

Hacker Harry 1.1, Human Fighter
Material used: ARG, APG, UC, Ultimate Campaign (UCP), People of the North (PotN)

Spoiler:

Race:
Human - Dual Talented (ARG)

Class:
Fighter - Weapon Master (APG)
Cavalier (APG) – Gendarme (UC)
Bloodrager (ACG)- Steelblood
Bard - Archaeologist (UC)

Traits:
Killer (Combat) (UCP), Fate's Favored (Faith) (UCP)

Ability Scores:
STR: 21 (+5) (15 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 belt)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 16 (+3) (14 base, +2 racial)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 13 (+1)
HP: 98 HP (9d10+1d8+40)(10 +5.5*8 +4.5 +4(class) +30(con) +6(tribal scars))

Saving Throws:
Fort: +15 4(fighter) +2(cavalier) +4(bloodrager) +3(con) +2(resistance)
Ref: +7 1(fighter) +1(bloodrager) +2(bard) +1(dex) +2(resistance)
Will: +8 1(fighter) +1(bloodrager) +2(bard) -1(wis) +2(resistance) +2(iron will) +1(tribal scars)

AC: 26 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 25 (+11 +2 Full Plate, +1 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +2 Luck(jingasa+fate's favored))

Attacks: +2 Furious Falcata +21/+16, d8+14 dmg (17/x3)
9(BAB) +1(focus) +5(str) +2(enhancement) +3(weapon training with gloves) +1(competence)= 21
7(str) + 2(enhancement) + 3(weapon training with gloves) +2(specialization) = 14

Class Breakdown:
Fighter, Cavalier, Bloodrager x4, Bard, Fighter x3

Class Abilities:
Mount
Challenge
Order of the Flame (BotE)
Bloodrage
Bloodline - Abyssal
Claws
Indomitable Stance
Armored Swiftness
Blood Sanctuary
Demonic Bulk
Blood Casting
Bardic Knowledge
Archaeologist's Luck
Weapon Guard
Weapon Training (falcata)

BAB: +9 CMB: +14 CMD: 25

Feats:
1st Tribal Scars - Slothjaw (PotN)
1st Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Falcata (bonus)
2nd Power Attack (bonus)
3rd Reckless Rage (ACG)
5th Iron Will
7th Extra Performance
8th Weapon Focus - Falcata (bonus)
9th Improved Critical - Falcata
10th Weapon Specialization - Falcata (bonus)

Gear: (59,968 gp)
+2 Furious Falcata (16,318 gp)
Belt of +2 Str (4000 gp)
Gloves of Dueling (15000 gp)
Pale green cracked ioun stone (attack) (4000 gp)
Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
+2 Full Plate (5,650 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (5000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000 gp)


Harry's Power Attack/Archaeologist's Luck/Rage/Enlarged routine is:
+2 Furious Falcata +23/+18, 2d6+35 dmg (17/x3)
(normal 21 -4(power attack + reckless) +3(str from rage + enlarged) -1(size) +2(furious) +2(Luck + Fate's) =23), (normal 14 +12(power attack + reckless) +5(str from rage + enlarged) +2(furious) +2(Luck + Fate's) = 35)

His average damage per round is ~100.98.
An additional +1 to-hit is worth ~2.97 DPR, an additional +1 damage is worth 2.38 DPR, and an additional full-BAB attack is worth ~56.43 DPR. His single-attack damage is ~56.43 DPR


Not sure if anyone still posts here, but here's my attempt at a Two Weapon Ted

Unchained Rogue 4/Mutation Warrior (Fighter variant) 6

Abilites:
Str 10
Dex 22 (+2 race, +2 level, +2 belt)
Con 14 (+2 belt)
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

HP 84
AC 27
Init 10

Fort 11
Ref 15 (17 /w Mutagen)
Will 6 (5 /w Mutagen)

Feats:
H Improved Initiative
1st Dodge
3rd Two-Weapon Fighting
5th Piranha Strike
Fighter 1st
Fighter 2nd Outflank
7th Toughness
Fighter 3rd Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th Improved Critical
Fighter 4th Weapon Specialization

Equipment:
+2 kukri x2
+2 mithral chainshirt
+3 Ring of Protection
Boots of Speed
+2 Belt of Physical Might: Dex and Con
+3 Cloak of Resistance
Advanced Weapon Training:
Fighter's Tactics
Focused Weapon

Rogue Talents:
Weapon Training
Bleeding Attack

+9(BAB) +8(Dex modified with mutagen) +2(Weapon Enhancement) +1(Weapon Training) +1(Weapon Focus) +1(Boots of Speed) +1(Ioun Stone) +4(Outflank) -2(Piranha Strike) =25 (27 when Sa)

1d8(Focused Weapon) +8(Dex) +2(Weapon Enhancement) +2(Weapon Specialization) +4(Piranha Strike) = ~20 (27 /w SA)

Main Hand (.95x20)x2+(.83x20)+15 = ~67 (~78 /w SA)

Off-Hand (.95x18)+(.83x18)+8 = ~40 (~55 /w SA)

DPR= ~107 (~133 /w SA)

10 +8(Dex /w Mutagen) +7(Armor) +2(Natural Armor) +1 (Dodge) +1(Boots of Speed)
AC 29

HP ~84
Init. 10

Grand Lodge

Does this AnyDice program use the right DPR calculation?

http://anydice.com/program/872b

Edit:
Don't think so, since I get 111DPR with Harry Hacker.. Not sure what's different though!
Edit #2:
Ah overlooked this rule:

Quote:
Target AC of 24. This is the standard for AC at CR 10, according to the Bestiary monster building guidelines. Target touch AC, when relevant, is 12 because that seems as good as any number.

Versus AC24, Harry Hacker gets 105 DPR, closer to Shakalaka calculation. Still wondering what's different! :)

output [{23,18} vs 24 crit 17 3 dmg 2d6+35] named "Hacker Harry 1.1 Furious Falcata +23/+18, 2d6+35 dmg (17/x3)"


That was a while ago. I think I wrote +2 for focus, when I didn't actually have greater weapon focus (my bad). But calculated it correctly (hopefully).

Maybe try it with 1 less attack bonus.


Varun Creed wrote:

Does this AnyDice program use the right DPR calculation?

http://anydice.com/program/872b

Edit:
Don't think so, since I get 111DPR with Harry Hacker.. Not sure what's different though!
Edit #2:
Ah overlooked this rule:

Quote:
Target AC of 24. This is the standard for AC at CR 10, according to the Bestiary monster building guidelines. Target touch AC, when relevant, is 12 because that seems as good as any number.

Versus AC24, Harry Hacker gets 105 DPR, closer to Shakalaka calculation. Still wondering what's different! :)

output [{23,18} vs 24 crit 17 3 dmg 2d6+35] named "Hacker Harry 1.1 Furious Falcata +23/+18, 2d6+35 dmg (17/x3)"

DPR Calculator that works

Grand Lodge

Aah, I see. I looked into the Excel and used a simple attack of (AC20 +9 20dmg 20x4). I see that in the Excel they include the ToHitChance into the CritDamage calculation.

Which is correct of course, since you'd need to re-roll the dice to confirm a crit. :)


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Here's a simple pyromancer
This uses Bloodline Mutations from Magic Tactics Toolbox, a feat from Inner Sea World Guide, a trait from Ultimate Campaign, a trait from PPC: Dragon Empires Primer, and probably some UM content.

Build:

Human Crossblooded Draconic/Orc Sorcerer 10, taking all of the Bloodline Mutations
Since this is a blaster build, I'll refer to Bestiary Statistics, which say the median CR 10 reflex save is +9.

Ability scores:
Either 14 or 15 from the array into Charisma, both level advancement bonuses into Charisma, Human bonus into Charisma for 18 or 19 before gear.

Traits:
Wayang Spellhunter (Fireball)
Magical Lineage (Fireball)

Feats:
1 - Spell Focus (Evocation), Mage's Tattoo (Evocation) (Human Bonus Feat)
3 - Craft Wondrous Item (to afford more gear)
5 - Empower Spell
7 - Spell Specialisation (Fireball), Quicken Spell (Bloodline Bonus Feat)
9 - Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)

Gear:
An Orange Prism Ioun Stone and preferably a +6 Cha headband, the remaining gold goes into defences. This is affordable thanks to aforementioned CWI.

Numbers:

DC on the Fireball is, if I'm not mistaken, 22, meaning enemies have a 60% chance of failing it.
Caster Level is 14 (10 + 1 from Mage's Tattoo + 2 from Spell Specialisation + 1 from Orange Prism Ioun Stone)
The "attack routine" consists of a Quickened Fireball (5th level spell slot) followed up by an Empowered Fireball (3rd level spell slot). Optionally, the damage can be increased massively through the application of Blood Intensity (a Bloodline Mutation published in Magic Tactics Toolbox, at this level it's usable 2/day, which means one volley).
When non-intensified, the Quickened Fireball deals 10d6+30 damage, the Empowered Fireball deals 15d6+45 damage. After accounting for the 60% chance to fail save, this is an average of 130.
When intensified, the damage is 40% higher, for a total of 182.
Since Quicken is fickle (takes whooping 5th level spell slots), average damage without anything, just a straight up empowered fireball is 78. If intensified for whatever reason, 109.2.

Potential:

+1 to spell DC increases non-intensified DPR by 4.0625 and intensified DPR by 5.6875.
+1 to caster level increases intensified DPR by 13.
+1 damage/die increases non-intensified DPR by 20 and intensified DPR by 28.

Addendum:

Changing the race to Daoine Sidhe from Lords of the Mists by Dreamscarred Press and taking the veilveawing alternate racial trait to grab Circlet of Brass, dropping the Greater Spell Focus feat, can increase both damage and DC a bit, but I wanted to keep this 1pp.


A potential change is dropping Greater Spell Focus in favour of Intensify Spell. This allows comboing a quickened 10d6+30 fireball with an intensified empowered 21d6+63 fireball for a much more consistent damage output, albeit at a slightly lower DC and slightly lower maximum damage output than the Blood Intensity variant described above.
The best option by far would be lesser rods of intensify spell, which are cheap as damn to the point of being feasible to buy in bulk, allowing to intensify even the quickened fireball at minimal cost, entirely replacing Blood Intensity for the purposes of this build and making it something that can be skipped in favour of normal bloodline powers, but one of the rules was "no X/day items".


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Quote:

Unnamed Human Unchained Weapon Adept Monk 10

Ability Scores
STR:22(+6)(15 base,+1 level,+2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX:12(+1)
CON:14(+2)
INT:10(+0)
WIS:18(+4)(13 base,+1 level,+4 headband)
CHA:8(-1)
HP: 95 (10d8+40)
Saving Throws
Fort:+9 Ref:+8 Will:+9(+11 against enchantments)
AC: 21 - Touch 19, Flatfooted 19 (+2 monk,+2 ring, +1 dex, +3 wis, +1 dodge, +1 amulet)
Attacks: +3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+12 1d8+22 (17-20/x2)
and others..
Class Abilities:
Ki pool: 9 points
Ki strike: lawful, cold iron/silver, magic
Purity of Body(immunity to diseases)
Evasion
Ki powers:
Empty body
Diamond mind
Abundant Step
BAB: +10 CMB:+17 CMD:35(+3 wis, +2 monk, +1 dodge, +2 ring)
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike(monk free)
Perfect Strike(archetype replaces Stunning fist)
Dodge(monk bonus 1st)
Deflect Arrows(monk bonus 2nd)
Power Attack(human bonus)
Intimidating Prowess(1st)
Weapon focus(temple sword)(Archetype bonus 2nd)
Toughness(3rd)
Dazzling Display(5th)
Weapon Specialization(Archetype bonus 6th)
Mobility(Monk bonus 6th)
Shatter Defenses(7th)
Improved Critical(temple sword)(9th)
Medusa's Wrath(monk bonus 10th)
Skills:
Sense Motive:+17
Intimidate:+18
Perception:+17
Acrobatics:+14
Gear:(62030 total)
+4 Belt of Strength(16000)
+4Headband of Wisdom(16000)
+2 Ring of protection(8000)
+1 Amulet of natural Armor(2000)
+3 Temple Sword(18030)
Handy Haversack(2000)

On full attack we have (w/ d8 average=4.5)

using perfect strike on the first attack on each round the chance to hit is 97.3% and the chance of it being a critical is ??
+3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+12 1d8+22
His average dpr is (if I am doing this correctly) is ~82.4733
With the extra ki attack we have
+3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+17/+12 1d8+22 with dpr ~112.1533
With the shatter defenses,Medusa's Wrath and extra ki point we have
+3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12 1d8+22 with dpr ~171.5133
Maybe a build with a seven branched sword might be occasionally better but the 17-20 threat range gives a lot.
What do you think?


mr Zack the Frog
Race: Grippli
Rogue4(A:Sharper, unchained) / Barbarian1(A:Urban) / Fighter5(A:Lore Warden)

DPR (+Rage -Haste):
+21/+21/+16/+16 ~102.3 (where ~83.7 is just normal damage without avg crit damage)
DPR (+Rage +Haste)
+22/+22/+22/+17/+17 ~142.7 (where ~116.6 is normal damage)
upd: oh, damage without sneaks (2d6) will be:
~85.8 (~66 w/o crits)
~113 (~87 w/o crits) when Haste

Ability Scores
STR:6(-2) (8 base, -2 racial)
DEX:22(+6) (15 base,+1 level,+2 racial,+4 belt), 26(+8) when rages
CON:14(+2)
INT:12(+1)
WIS:16(+3)(13 base,+1 level,+2 racial)
CHA:10(+0)

HP: 78 (12+4d8+5d10+5favFighter+2con*10)

Saving Throws
Fort:+11 Ref:+15 Will:+9
Also 1 failed save reroll/day at the cost of [+1 +1 +1]

Expanded saves math:

[+1 +4 +1] Rogue
[+2 +0 +0] Barbarian
[+4 +1 +1] Fighter
[+2 +8 +3] Ability
[+2 +2 +4] misc: Sharper archetype, Iron Will, Cloak +1saves

AC: 29 (where +4 for Mage armor and +4 for Shield spells I can cast using wands)
Touch 20
Flatfooted 29 (Uncanny dodge, yay)

BAB: +9 CMB:+7 CMD:25
Attacks: TWF +21/+21/+16/+16 with two +1 Kukris (1d3+20 main, 1d3+16 offhand, 15-20/x2) with Rage, but without Haste
TWF +22/+22/+22/+17/+17 with Haste and Rage

Attack and damage calculation:

ATK: +9 BAB, +8 Dex (Rage included), +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon Training, +2 Dueling gloves, +2 Flank, -3 Piranha strike, +1 Ioun, +1 Weapon, +1 Size
DMG: +8 Dex (+4 for offhand), +1 Weapon, +1 Weapon Training, +2 Weapon Specialization, +2 Dueling gloves, +6 Piranha strike

Feats:

Iron Will
Weapon Finesse (Rogue bonus)
Improved Steal (Rogue bonus)
TWF
Weapon focus (Kukri) (in place of Rogue trick)
Extra Rage
Piranha strike
Imptoved TWF
Combat expertise (Fighter bonus)
Lunge
Improved Critical
Weapon Specialization

Most important gear: ~60k:

+4 Belt of Dexterity(16000)
Gloves of Dueling (15000)
Boots of Speed(12000)
+1 Ring of protection(2000)
+1 Amulet of natural Armor(2000)
+1 Kukris x2 (~2300*2)
Cloak +1 saves(1000)
Pale Green Prism +1 atk (4000)
Wand of mage armor (750)
Wand of shield (750)


Al Chemist the Alchemist
Bomber Grenadier Alchemist

Spoiler:

Ability scores
STR:12
DEX: 17 (19 with belt)
Con: 11
Int: 18(20 with headband)
WIS:10
CHA:8
HP 58
Saving throws
Fort: +11
REF: +15
Will: +8
AC: 21 14 touch 16 flatfooted
Attack routine Bomb of any variety: +9/+9/+9/+4/+4 5d6+6 +2Long bow:+11/+11+/+6 1d8+3
BAB: +8 CMB:+8 CMD: +22
Discoveries
Precise bombs
Frost bombs
Dispelling bombs
Tumor Familiar
Infusion
Fast Bombs
feats
Point-blank shot
Rapid shot
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Hammer the Gap
Throw Anything
Martial Weapon Proficiency(longbow)
Skills: None Relevant
Gear:
+2 Mithral Shirt
+2 Composite(+1) longbow
Bag of Holding II
Handy Haversack
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Cape of Free Will +4/+5
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
20 liquid ice
20 acid
20 alchemist's fire

Average DPR with the bombs is 112.08 (I am factoring in point-blank shot since Al would rarely be further thqan 20' away due to the bomb's range increment. +1 to hit is worth 1.20 dpr and +1 to damage is worth 4.78(this seems high, probably due to the high volume of attacks). He can only full attack liker this three times a day, assuming he always makes all 5 attacks, but it'll end any encounters. I didn't include hammer the gap in the damage because I don't know how to do that, lol. That's also why he has the longbow and the splash weapons. I haven't calculated for the bow and the consumable because those aren't his main ways of doing things, but they wouldn't be super awesome anyway.


Anybody have thoughts on the kineticist? I might build one for this thread- one at level 10, another at 11 (when a kineticist gets supercharge and Infusion Specialization 3).

I believe the highest DPR you can get with a kineticist is going to be from using Kinetic Blade and Blue Flame Blast, which is getting touch attacks while dealing roughly 10d6+1/2 con damage on each attack. With a physical blast however you end up with 10d6+10+con but have to hit against normal AC and DR, which will lower your DPR.


I was a bit disappointed to not see a pure Barbarian that actually followed the rules, though I do understand the complaints. Also note I don’t buy into Rage HP as an offset to AC; that HP goes away after your rage rounds expire and still result in death. Barbs have the highest non-rage HP gain in the game though, as well as DR, which are good arguments for offsetting AC. We still do manage to hit the required AC before we rage, though we could arguably afford to lose 4 AC for +20 hp or double crit range by losing the ring and amulet and getting a flawed Onyx Rhomboid or Scabbard of Keen Edges at the same cost.

Note that OP has stated Elite array is equivalent to a 15-pt buy and since elite array makes NO sense for a Barb, I’m using 15-pt buy. W/ Elite array stats would start as 15,13,14,10,12,8, netting us a -1 to Str Bonus, and +1 to Wis resulting in a small but significant attack/dmg loss and a slight boost to our Will save. The change in Dex is inconsequential.

Note that leveling this character is a breeze, it works very well in actual gameplay and does not notice any meaningful obstacles up through level 10, getting a MASSIVE boost at 11 when another iterative comes online.

Sources: CRB, UC, APG, UE, FOP

Malek the Mighty, Human Barbarian 10, Invulnerable Rager, Favored Class: Barbarian (Superstition NOT HP)

Statblock:

STR: 28 | (16 base [10 pts], +2 race, +2 levels, +4 belt, +4 rage)
DEX: 12 | (base, 2 pts)
CON: 20 | (14 base [5 pts], +2 Ioun, +4 rage)
INT: 10 | (base, 0 pts)
WIS: 10 | (base, 0 pts)
CHA: 8 | (base, -2 pts)

HP: 100.5 = 12 (level 1) + (6.5*9) levels + (3*10) Con | (120.5 temporarily while raging)
DR: 5/-
ER: 2 (fire)

Raging Saves:
Fort: +19 (7 Base, +3 Con, +2 Rage, +7 Superstition), Ref: +11 (3 Base, +1 Dex, +7 Superstition), Will: +12 (3 Base, +2 Rage, +7 Superstition)
Sober Saves: Fort +17, Ref +11, Will +10

AC: 20 – T 18, FF 19 (10 base, +1 Dex, +2 Ring, +2 Amulet, +7 Breastplate, -2 Raging)
Note: No raging penalty for Flatfooted in surprise rounds (so 21), since we aren’t pre-buffing rage.
Initiative: +3 (1 Dex + 2 Trait)

Rages: 4 + Con + 2/lvl after 1st = 25/day, effectively all combats excepting extreme circumstances
Raging Attacks: 10 BAB, +9 Str, +2 Weapon Enhance, +2 Furious, -3 (Power Attack) +3 (Reckless Abandon) == +23/18
Sober Attacks: 10 BAB, +7Str, +2 Weapon Enhance, -3 Power Attack == +16/11

Rage Damage: [2d6, +9 Str, +2 Enhance, +2 Furious, +6 Power Attack] *1.5 == avg. 39 (31-46)
Sober Damage: [2d6, +7 Str, +2 Enhance, +2 Furious, +6 Power Attack] *1.5 == avg. 36 (28-43)
Dmg +4-5 vs Spellcasters (+3 Witch Hunter *1.5) - not factored in dmg calc due to variability

Feats/Class Abilities by level:
1: Power Attack
1 (Human): Combat Reflexes
1 (Barb): Fast Movement (40 ft)
2: Lesser Beast Totem
3: Extra Rage Power (ERP): Reckless Abandon
4: Superstition
5: ERP: Witch Hunter
6: Beast Totem
7: ERP: Spell Sunder
8: Unexpected Strike
9: ERP: Strength Surge
10: Greater Beast Totem

Traits: Reactionary (Combat) +2 Initiative, Second Chance (Religion): Reroll failed save 1/day

BAB: +10, CMB: +19, CMD: 30, Surged Sunder: +29
Skills: 50 pts to spend (4/lvl (class) +1/lvl (human.)) Perception, Acrobatics + choose 3.

Gear:
+2 Furious Greatsword (+4 when raging) cost: 18,000
+4 Belt of Str cost: 16,000
Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone cost: 8,000
+2 Ring of Prot cost: 8,000
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor cost: 8,000
+1 Mithral Breastplate cost: 2,400
Total cost: 60,400
WBL: 62,000
1600 left over for consumables and other items which won’t impact the build significantly. We don’t have a keen scabbard or similar yet, because we’re too poor. However, shaping up nicely:

DPR w/ +2 Furious Greatsword

Calc:
H= .95/.70 raging, .6/.35 sober
D= (2d6+9+2+2+6)*1.5 = 39 average raging, (2d6+7+2+2+6)*1.5 = 36 sober. I won’t be factoring in Witch Hunter due to being situational
T= .1 (19-20 on GS)
F= .95/.70
C= 1

Raging:
Calc:
1st .95(39) + .95*.1(39) + 2nd .70(39) + .70*.1(39) = 37.05 +.095(39) +27.3 +.07(39) = 37.05 +3.705 +27.3 +2.73

==70.785 DPR

Sober:

Calc:
1st .6(36) + .6*.1(36) + 2nd .35(36) + .35*.1(36) = 21.6 +2.16 +12.6 +1.26

==37.62 DPR

Effect of +1 to Hit: +2.145/3.96
Raging

Calc:
H= .95/.75, otherwise as original
=37.05 +3.705 +.75(39) +.75*.1(39) = 40.755 +29.25 +2.925

==72.93 (2.145 gained)

Sober

Calc:
H= .65/.40, otherwise as original
=.65(36) +.65*.1(36) +.40(36) +.40*.1(36) = 23.4 +2.34 +14.4 +1.44

==41.58 (3.96 gained)

Effect of +1 Damage: +1.815/1.045
Raging

Calc:
D=40, otherwise as original
=.95(40) +.095(40) +.70(40) +.07(40) = 38 +3.8 +28 +2.8

==72.6 (1.815 gained)

Sober

Calc:
D=37, otherwise as original
=.6(37) +.06(37) +.35(37) +.035(37) = 22.2 +2.22 +12.95 +1.295

==38.665 (1.045 gained)

So when not raging, we shouldn’t be power attacking given that +1 to hit is worth more than +2 damage. It’s okay, just rage every combat (25 rds/day is more than you will combat a huge majority of the time.)

For Fun, DPR Calc w/ +2 Furious Scythe:

Details:
H (rage)= +23 hits AC 24 on a 1, but auto-misses. H=.95 for 1st swing, +18 needs a 6 on the 2nd for h=.70
H (sober)= +16 hits AC 24 on an 8 for h=.6, +11 hits on a 13 for h=.35
D= Raging = 36, Sober = 33 (averages).
S= Null
T= .05
F= .95 / .70
C= 3 (scythe is x4)
B= Null
R= Null
Raging: 1st .95(36) + .95*.05(3*36) ] + 2nd [ .70(36) + .70*.05(3*36) = 34.2 + .0475(108) + 25.2 + .035(108) = 34.2 +5.13 +25.2 +3.78 ==68.31 DPR while raging
Sober: 1st .6(33) + .6*.05(3*33) ] + 2nd [ .35(33) + .35*.05(3*33) = 19.8 + .03(99) + 11.55 + .0175(99) = 19.8 +2.97 +11.55 +1.7325 ==36.0525 DPR while sober

For fun, expanded crit range on Scythe and Greatsword (can afford by dropping AC items), respectively, raging only

Details:
Scythe doubled threat range:
H= .95/.70
D= 36
T= .1
F= .95/.70
C= 3
.95(36) + .095(36*3) + .7(36) + .07(36*3) = 34.2 +10.26 +25.2 +7.56 ==77.22

Greatsword doubled threat range:
H= .95/.70
D= 39
T= .2
F= .95/.70
C= 1
.95(39) + .95*.2(39) + .7(39) +.7*.2(39) = 37.05 +7.41 +27.3 +5.46 ==77.22


Amusingly, once you double their threat ranges a Scythe finally becomes *as good as* a Greatsword on average with this specific build while raging vs AC 24.


I'm happily surprised this is still active!

To make damage calculations easier for myself and everyone else, I put together a DPR calculator. It uses the formulas from this thread's OP, so all you have to do is input your to-hit, average damage, crit range, etc.

You can find the DPR Calculator here

To make your own, editable copy, open the link in Google docs and click "File" -> "Make a copy..."

For the DPR calculations in this thread, you'll also want to edit "Avg. Target AC" to 24. Don't worry about overwriting code - you can always make another copy.

You can also post comments on the original, so please let me know if something needs tuning.


Here's my contribution: a Lizardfolk Dervish of Dawn Bard known as The Elite Beat Agent!

Stats and stuff:

Level 10 Bard, 75hp, AC=22, Fort/Ref/Will=+8/+11/+9, Inititive=+2, trait= Orphan, 1 trait free

  • Str=15+2(racial)+1(lvl)+4(belt)=22
  • Dex=13+1(lvl)=14
  • Con=12+2(racial)=14
  • Int=8
  • Wis=10
  • Cha=14

Equipment: +3 Chain Shirt, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, +4 Belt of Strength, +1 Scimitar, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, +2 Cloak of Resistance, Helm of the Mammoth Lord. 1500gp remaining.

Feats: Multiattack, Extra Performance, (Faction Feat) Master Performer, (Faction Feat) Grand Master Performer, Dangerous Tail

Spells:

  • Level 1:Saving Finale, Timely Inspiration, Grease, Comprehend Lang, Dazzling Blade
  • Level 2: Bladed Dash, Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Heroism, Silence
  • Level 3: Haste, Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Jester's Jaunt
  • Level 4: Song of Healing, Virtuoso Performance


The basis of this build is the Dervish of Dawn archetype. Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness become battle dances, which only benefit the user and can be started as a move action, or a swift action at lvl 10. Crucially, these battle dances grant double their normal bonuses.

Master Performer and Grand Master Performer increase the bonuses given by a bard's performance by a stacking +1 each. So for a regular bard with these feats, Inspire Courage provides +4/+4 competence to attack/damage and Inspire Greatness provides +4 Hit Die (~+30 temp hp), +4 competence to attack and +3 Fort. Therefore, for a Dervish of Dawn Bard, Inspire Courage is +8/+8 attack/damage and Inspire Greatness gives +8 Hit Die (~+60hp), +8 attack and +6 Fort.

Lizardfolk is chosen to give the maximum number of natural attacks for the least effort and some extra AC.

His full-round attack (including +8 Inspire Courage) is: +22 scimitar/+17 scimitar/+21 gore/+21 claw/+21 tail/+21 bite for 1d6+15 (18-20/*2) /1d6+15(18-20/*2) /1d6+13(/*2) /1d4+13(/*2) /1d4+13(/*2) /1d3(/*2).

DPR = 94.2. With +1 attack: DPR = 98.5. With +1 damage: DPR = 99.8. With one extra attack at full BaB: DPR = 112.7

A neat trick to improve tankiness is to cast Virtuoso Performance, which allows you to have both Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness on at the same time (no attack bonus stacking unfortunately). Also at lvl 11, Inspire Courage improves to +10/+10 to attack/damage.

What do you guys think?


I was working on my own entries for the DPR Olympics.

One of my first thoughts was a Natural Attack build, stacking on as many as I can, and levels in Warpriest substituting the Natural Attack Damage with the higher Sacred Weapon Damage. In addition, I worked in a free Grapple Check with every successful natural attack, wearing Armor Spikes so Damage would be done with each Grapple. from d20pfsrd, I reckoned the average CMD for CR10 creatures to be 32. I was able to get this build's DPR up to 74.7. Not the highest on this thread, but quite respectable, especially considering that this character is also a good divine spellcaster. I also feel compelled to point out that this assumes the character buffs herself with a Strong Jaw Spell, which is technically not allowed, only a 5 minute duration instead of 10, but oh, please!

A variant on this would be to take levels in classes that do Sneak Attack Damage, using Dirty Tricks and maybe the Arcanist Dimensional Hop to lock the damage in. The probability of each Dirty Trick working would be about 50% or perhaps a little lower, so it is reasonable to score a Dirty Trick in inflict Blindness and lock in Sneak Attack Damage. But while the mean AC of CR 10 creatures is 24, I haven't figured out a mean Flatfooted AC for CR10 creatures.

I also worked out a Druidzilla Natural Attack build, favoring a Giant Octopus and got a DPR up to 123.

I have worked out a Grappling Feature that can be put into a lot of builds. With Greater Grapple and Expert Captor, a character can Grapple an opponent as a Standard Action then Tie him Up as a Move Action. I was able to get the Grapple Mod up to +27 Full Time, partly through 4 levels in Alchemist and the Crab Tumor Familiar and the Tentacle discoveries. If you take the Potion Glutton Feat, you might buff yourself with True Strike the round prior and close with the enemy. Then on the 2nd round Grapple as a Standard Action, re-buff yourself as a Swift Action, then Tie your opponent Up as a Move Action with a GMB of +47, pretty much guaranteeing defeating any one CR 10 (and much higher) unless you roll a natural 1, so the attack has about a 91% chance to succeed. So that makes the effective DPR about 110.

But the highest DPR I got to was with a Humanoid. Just use a Quickdraw Throwing Shield. Take the Quickdraw Feat. Acquire a Blinkback Belt. Throwing Shields are thrown as a Free Action. The Blinkback Belts instantly teleport your weapon back to your belt, and since it's a Quickdraw Shield, and you have the Quickdraw Feat, you can re-draw it as a Free Action. That means all this is done with Free Actions, and the theoretical DPR of this character is infinite.

In practice, GMs are specifically empowered to impose "reasonable limits" on the number of Free Actions you are allowed to take in a round, but this is a theorycrafting thread. Meanwhile just because the DPR in practice will be a good deal less than infinity, that doesn't mean it isn't a powerful combination, good for at least some free attacks. In addition, you can use this feature in conjunction with Snapshot Feats and Threaten squares within 10'. Throwing Shields are also Tripping Weapons, allowing you to Trip with impunity from getting Tripped by your own Trip attempts, using Greater Trip at Range.

But this is a build feature that a GM must take special actions to curb its power. As a theorycraft, it does infinity damage. With Infinity Damage, I claim the Gold Medal of the DPR Olympics. I win at D&D.

Grand Lodge

I'm sure other have probably already examined the Metamorph alchemist, but I wanted to take a crack at it in fairly high level (LVL 12) to see the silliness for myself.

I statted one with 20 starting STR (7 CHA, 12 Wis, 14 Con, the rest 10s), put all three bumps into STR, got a +6 belt, and assumed the following buffs:

He is using his boots of speed for +1 attack and an extra slam.
He is using Greater Mutagen and Feral Mutagen for +6 STR and +4 Natural Armor.
He is metamorphed into the form of a Gegenees, which is another +6 STR/Natural Armor, -4 Dex, -2 size penalty to attack/AC, 15' reach, and of course, 6 natural slam attacks.

This puts him at 41 STR, with 7 slam attacks and a bite.

He has weapon focus and power attack as far as feats contributing to his melee bruising, as well as a [pale green cracked ioun stone[/i] and an amulet of the mighty fists +2.

His total attack is 9 BAB +15 STR +2 amulet + 1 haste +1 Weapon Focus (other than the bite), +1 ioun stone, -2 size, -3 Power Attack for a total of +24 on all seven slams and a +23 for the bite.

His damage is 2d6+15+6+2, or 30 on an average slam hit and 3d6+23 (33.5 average) for the bite.

The average AC of a CR 12 monster is 27, so the EDV formulation for a full attack looks like this:

((0.85*30) + (30 * (0.05 * 0.1)) + (60 * (0.05 * .9))) * 7 + ((0.8 * 33.5) + (33.5 * (0.05*0.15)) + (67 * (0.05 * 0.85)))

The total is 228.35 expected damage. I should also note that each slam attack gets a free +30 CMB grab attempt, and that AoOs are pretty likely with his 15' reach from being a tall Huge sized.

I am satisfied that the metamorph is downright silly.


Though the metamorph above isn't a good comparison to this thread's baseline, since he's two levels higher than normal and using point buy rather than the elite array. Also he better have a cloak of resistance +4 or he won't match the minimum Will save at level 10.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
only a 5 minute duration instead of 10,

Can the druid afford a metamagic rod of extend spell, or just the extend spell feat?


avr wrote:

Though the metamorph above isn't a good comparison to this thread's baseline, since he's two levels higher than normal and using point buy rather than the elite array. Also he better have a cloak of resistance +4 or he won't match the minimum Will save at level 10.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
only a 5 minute duration instead of 10,
Can the druid afford a metamagic rod of extend spell, or just the extend spell feat?

Yes, both builds that would use Strong Jaw could afford the Rod. Bingo. Thanks.

Grand Lodge

avr wrote:

Though the metamorph above isn't a good comparison to this thread's baseline, since he's two levels higher than normal and using point buy rather than the elite array. Also he better have a cloak of resistance +4 or he won't match the minimum Will save at level 10.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
only a 5 minute duration instead of 10,
Can the druid afford a metamagic rod of extend spell, or just the extend spell feat?

I wasn't doing it to compare with other entrants in this thread as much as for my own edification. That said, similar results could be attained at level 10 by using the Calikang form. I might go through that later.

The Will save shouldn't be an issue. He's got plenty of feats to spare, no traits spent, a fair amount of gold, and one could always be a Half-Orc for the sacred tattoo.

Grand Lodge

Alright, I'll try to do the metamorph alchemist by the actual rules of the thread this time. Note that level 11 is a massive power boost for the metamorph. I'll try to ameliorate losing that a bit with a level of Slayer.

Rough One
Starting Attributes(Half-Orc) 15 (+2 racial)STR / 14 DEX/ 13 CON/ 10 INT/ 12 WIS / 8 CHA

Levels: Fighter 1/Metamorph Alchemist 9

Bumps obviously go into STR, for a total of 19 before items, morphing, and mutagen.

I'm going to make a list of resources at my disposal first, to make this an easier process to work through.

62kgp (no consumables nor limited-per-day magic items), 2 traits, 6 feats, and 4 Discoveries (which are severely limited by the archetype).

I will be assuming that the metamorph's mutagen and polymorph abilities are both active. I'll get into my defensive benchmarks first.

Fort saves are already at +8 off the bat, but Will is only at a +4. Fate's Favored+Sacred Tattoo alternate racial trait, Freed Slave trait, and 1,000 gp on a cloak of resistance +1 take care of that.

While under a mutagen and metamorph, AC is +1 Dex (lowered by size increase), -1 size, and +6 Natural armor. To get above our defensive floor, I just need to buy a set of full-plate. I'm proficient from fighter, and I don't really have any class abilities that would make me care about tanking around. So, 25 total AC. Good enough.

So for offensive stats, I still have 57.5kgp (after the Handy Haversack), 6 feats, and 4 Discoveries.

Discoveries: Feral Mutagen, Rag Doll Mutagen (mostly because this class tends to be Large or bigger, and it will be useful not to get stuck places), Spontaneous Healing, Healing Touch. Other than Feral, none of these are really helping with DPR, but they're neat.

Feats: Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (slam), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Hurtful, Cornugon Smash.

Items: belt of giant's strength +4, pale green cracked ioun stone, amulet of the might fist +3, and 500 gp in something else. Maybe some mundane gear.

He will metamorph into a Calikang with a Feral Mutagen. This gives him 6 slams and a bite, increases his Strength to 31, and of course gives him reach (and some other stuff already mentioned or irrelevant to DPR).

When Power attacking, his attacks will be +7 BAB +10 STR +3 amulet +1 ioun stone, +1 weapon focus, -1 size, -3 Power attack for +18 on all but the first attack, which is ate a +21. Bites deal 2d6, slams deal 1d8. Both have a static modifier of +19.

Bite (Furious Focused) attack EDV = (26 * 0.85) + (26 * (0.05 * 0.1)) + (52 * (0.05 * 0.9)) = 24.57

Slam attack EDV = (23.5 * 0.70) + (23.5 * (0.05 * 0.25)) + (47 * (0.05 * 0.75)) = 18.506 x6 = 111.04

Potential attack from Hurtful (some slight reworking would give this a much better chance of working than I have outlined. Namely, 3000 extra gp would get the Maiden's Helm for a +5 Intimidate, and a MW Tool I can afford to bring my Intimidate modifier to +11. Could also sub Furious Focus for Intimidating Prowess. Still, I have 7 attempts to succeed a demoralize check.) will be a Bite attack that does not get furious focus for another 20.475 EDV.

This brings the total to 156.085. I think someone else could probably tweak what I've got here to get a little more performance, but I think this is enough to showcase how little creativity or effort needs to go into making an absolute monstrosity with this archetype.


Harsh Language can go pretty far if its Blistering Invective.

Grand Lodge

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Harsh Language can go pretty far if its Blistering Invective.

No, that spell is terrible in nearly all circumstances.


Le Petite Mort wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Harsh Language can go pretty far if its Blistering Invective.
No, that spell is terrible in nearly all circumstances.

Naw, it's low level and delivering a -2 mass debuff would be decent on its own. Against low level creatures with bad Reflex saves and no fire resistance (admittedly not a huge array of creatures throughout your career) you're giving them continuous damage that might make it worthwhile for them to waste a standard action to try to put it out if they keep failing their saves.

I might retrain out out if it once I've got better offensive options, but it's entirely respectable to take and spam at level 4 for a Bard/Mesmerist, maybe for an Inquisitor. LOL at Alchemists, though, they definitely have better uses for a standard action.

Grand Lodge

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

I might retrain out out if it once I've got better offensive options, but it's entirely respectable to take and spam at level 4 for a Bard/Mesmerist, maybe for an Inquisitor. LOL at Alchemists, though, they definitely have better uses for a standard action.

No, it's terrible. Yes, it is a second level spell. Those aren't meant to be powerhouses, but let's look at what we actually get in a numerically rigorous way.

1d10 fire damage is blatantly pathetic, even given the 30 foot spread. Given that none of the classes that can use this spell are in any way likely to be save DC focused (and its only level 2), the DC is almost certainly in the 14-16 range. Given a 50% average successful save rate (generous to the caster even at level 4; by level 6 when the caster is still locked in second level spells, the save rate will likely be much higher), this is 4.125 expected damage, and in the most commonly resisted element. Even Fire Resist usually negates this, or at best lowers it to 3 (1 on a successful save).
Obviously, this is not intended to be the potent effect of the spell.

The other component is, for all intents and purposes, a Dazzling Display usage with slightly better action economy. That middling advantage of freeing up your move action is, I think, ameliorated partially by it not actually being a Dazzling Display and therefore not combining with other feats that change one's DD attempts (such as Disheartening Display).

You have to actually make the demoralize roll at this point, it doesn't automatically make them shaken. 10+HD+Wis mod at this level is likely to be around 19. A 5th level character in these classes likely has a +3 stat modifier, 5 ranks, class skill, and maybe a MW tool for demoralize. That's a healthy 75% chance of success, but only a 25% of getting a second round. So, on average, it will demoralize a hit enemy for 0.875 rounds. This is if we accept my rough, but fairly generous ballparks. A character could hypothetically min-max for this BS spell, but nobody ever does.

Demoralizing gives the shaken condition, which is a -2 to all checks (other than damage). This means that any enemy hit successfully by this effect is a 10% worse character. They are 10% less likely to succeed at whatever they were likely to attempt. So, if a single creature is in the range of this spell, this clause of the spell made your standard action worth 8.75% of an enemy turn. You are essentially 8.75% of a useful party member that turn.

Let's value the fire damage as being worth 16.25% of a worthwhile action (a comparison with a 5th level fireball's average damage modified by the fireball's higher typical save DC gives approximately this result) and wind up at 25% of worthwhile per target.

So, if you can get 4 enemies in your 30' spread (with no fire resistance, fairly low Reflex saves, middling or lower HD+Wis modifiers, and no immunity to fear, mind-affecting, or mindlessness), it was worth your time I suppose. Only when we get to 5 targets is it actually what I would call a good usage of one's turn.

In those EXTREMELY RARE conditions, Blistering Invective is good.

But, as I said, it is terrible in nearly all circumstances.

Liberty's Edge

Linosx3x wrote:


On full attack we have (w/ d8 average=4.5)
using perfect strike on the first attack on each round the chance to hit is 97.3% and the chance of it being a critical is ??
+3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+12 1d8+22
His average dpr is (if I am doing this correctly) is ~82.4733
With the extra ki attack we have
+3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+17/+12 1d8+22 with dpr ~112.1533
With the shatter defenses,Medusa's Wrath and extra ki point we have
+3 Temple Sword +17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12 1d8+22 with dpr ~171.5133
Maybe a...

I only see two real problems here.

1. The weapon adept archetype doesn't work with Unchained Monk.

2. Medusa's Wrath requires you to hit with an unarmed strike, and for the extra attacks to be unarmed strikes. This means your attack bonus will be four lower (3 from losing the sword's enhancement, 1 from losing weapon focus) on both the attack you attempt to trigger the bonus attacks, and on the bonus unarmed strikes themselves. You will also lose the 17-20 critical range on them, and your damage will change to 1d10 + 12 (17.5 average). These bonus attacks EDV against AC 24 should then be multiplied by the percentage rate that the first unarmed strike hits with, as without that hit they don't even occur. This will give you your final EDV from Medusa's wrath, which can be added to the +17/+17/+12 temple sword attack retinue you have remaining. I suspect this is signifantly lower than 171.5, even before we remove whatever you were getting from weapon adept.


I wrote:
If you take the Potion Glutton Feat, you might buff yourself with True Strike the round prior and close with the enemy. Then on the 2nd round Grapple as a Standard Action, re-buff yourself as a Swift Action, then Tie your opponent Up as a Move Action with a GMB of +47, pretty much guaranteeing defeating any one CR 10 (and much higher) unless you roll a natural 1

I was just made aware of new rules in the Pathfinder Society Campaign

Campaign Clarifications, Inner Sea Gods, Potion Glutton wrote:

“Benefit: You can drink potions,

elixirs, or other potables (but not extracts) as a move
action

So, instead of Potion Glutton, the Grappler would have to take a 2nd round of self buffing before entering combat, casting Touch Injection and using Share Spells to give his Crab Tumor Familiar to inject the Infusion of True Strike into him as a Readied Attack Action.


Aronbar wrote:

Not sure if anyone still posts here, but here's my attempt at a Two Weapon Ted

Unchained Rogue 4/Mutation Warrior (Fighter variant) 6

Abilites:
Str 10
Dex 22 (+2 race, +2 level, +2 belt)
Con 14 (+2 belt)
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

HP 84
AC 27
Init 10

Fort 11
Ref 15 (17 /w Mutagen)
Will 6 (5 /w Mutagen)

Feats:
H Improved Initiative
1st Dodge
3rd Two-Weapon Fighting
5th Piranha Strike
Fighter 1st
Fighter 2nd Outflank
7th Toughness
Fighter 3rd Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th Improved Critical
Fighter 4th Weapon Specialization

Equipment:
+2 kukri x2
+2 mithral chainshirt
+3 Ring of Protection
Boots of Speed
+2 Belt of Physical Might: Dex and Con
+3 Cloak of Resistance
Advanced Weapon Training:
Fighter's Tactics
Focused Weapon

Rogue Talents:
Weapon Training
Bleeding Attack

+9(BAB) +8(Dex modified with mutagen) +2(Weapon Enhancement) +1(Weapon Training) +1(Weapon Focus) +1(Boots of Speed) +1(Ioun Stone) +4(Outflank) -2(Piranha Strike) =25 (27 when Sa)

1d8(Focused Weapon) +8(Dex) +2(Weapon Enhancement) +2(Weapon Specialization) +4(Piranha Strike) = ~20 (27 /w SA)

Main Hand (.95x20)x2+(.83x20)+15 = ~67 (~78 /w SA)

Off-Hand (.95x18)+(.83x18)+8 = ~40 (~55 /w SA)

DPR= ~107 (~133 /w SA)

10 +8(Dex /w Mutagen) +7(Armor) +2(Natural Armor) +1 (Dodge) +1(Boots of Speed)
AC 29

HP ~84
Init. 10

This build is illegal. The gold allowed for this contest is 62k, and you have 69,866 in listed equipment, plus 28,000 for a pale green prism ioun stone whose bonus you added without adding in the cost of the equipment.

I'm a little salty because I thought the build looked awesome and wanted to play it before counting the cost of the equipment.


Excuse me, 4,000 for a cracked pale green ioun stone


SharadW wrote:

mr Zack the Frog

Race: Grippli
Rogue4(A:Sharper, unchained) / Barbarian1(A:Urban) / Fighter5(A:Lore Warden)

DPR (+Rage -Haste):
+21/+21/+16/+16 ~102.3 (where ~83.7 is just normal damage without avg crit damage)

This build looks fantastic. Does it have to be a grippli though? I can't tell what part of the build requires it. Also for what it's worth, my DPR calculator puts the rage + SA damage at 125.9 - are you sure it's only 109?

Also, this build:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
But the highest DPR I got to was with a Humanoid. Just use a Quickdraw Throwing Shield. Take the Quickdraw Feat. Acquire a Blinkback Belt. Throwing Shields are thrown as a Free Action. The Blinkback Belts instantly teleport your weapon back to your belt, and since it's a Quickdraw Shield, and you have the Quickdraw Feat, you can re-draw it as a Free Action. That means all this is done with Free Actions, and the theoretical DPR of this character is infinite.

This build is fantastic, and I'm thrilled you found this interaction. I wonder what the local PFS GMs would say to this?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Miryafa wrote:
Throwing Shields are thrown as a Free Action. I wonder what the local PFS GMs would say to this?

Being bluntly honest, I'd ask you never sit down at my table again unless you were joking.

That isn't RAW, the shield is a free action to unhook it so that you can attack action or full attack action throw it.


Miryafa wrote:
This build is fantastic, and I'm thrilled you found this interaction. I wonder what the local PFS GMs would say to this?
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
But the highest DPR I got to was with a Humanoid. Just use a Quickdraw Throwing Shield. Take the Quickdraw Feat. Acquire a Blinkback Belt. Throwing Shields are thrown as a Free Action. The Blinkback Belts instantly teleport your weapon back to your belt, and since it's a Quickdraw Shield, and you have the Quickdraw Feat, you can re-draw it as a Free Action. That means all this is done with Free Actions, and the theoretical DPR of this character is infinite.

The Core Rulebook specifically empowers GMs to impose "reasonable limits" on how many Free Actions a player can take in a round, so in practice, it will almost never do infinity damage.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Actions in Combat, Free Actions wrote:
However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

But it theoretically could, and this is a theorycraft thread. Meanwhile, as a build feature that calls upon a GM to take special action to curtail it, this is a minmaxer's dream, and so I submitted this to this thread.

Meanwhile, the GM is always at liberty to let this combo grant as many attacks as he wants. If the party is, for instance, facing a TPK that the GM doesn't want to happen, he has a ready-made mechanism for sparing the party by just letting the Player know his character is allowed to attack again and again until he thinks the odds are re-evened.

James Risner wrote:
That isn't RAW, the shield is a free action to unhook it so that you can attack action or full attack action throw it.

You statement is simply obviously false. If I didn't know you so well, I'd surprised you would make it.

Ultimate Equipment, Throwing Shield wrote:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps that allow you to unclasp and throw it as a free action.

Even though this doesn't do infinity damage, it still looks promising to me as a build feature. It's an expensive Feature. Throwing Shield is an Exotic Weapon, requiring a Feat. The combo only works if you also take Quickdraw. You need a 5000gp magic item, the Blinkback Belt, which takes up the belt slot you might have used for a belt of strength or dexterity. At the cost of 2 Feats and a 5000gp magic item that occupies an important slot for a character like this, it's only fair that you should get something good.

For instance, after you make your full attack with your Dwarven War Axe and a Shield Bash, you then get to throw your Throwing Shield once, get it back, re-draw it, and still get your Shield AC Bonus, also not provoking an Attack of Opportunity since Throwing it is a Free Action. Or maybe using an Attack Action to throw the shield, use Rapid Shot to throw it again, then once more as a Free Action.

If you take Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot, it seems you should be able to make your Attacks of Opportunity with your Shield or Cleave with it, getting back and re-drawing it each time as Free Actions. Throwing Shields have the Trip Quality. Take Greater Trip, Trip someone 10' from you, then make your Greater Trip AoO with the Shield.

That's how I envision using it in PFS.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

That is how you make your spot at a table no longer welcome.


Note though, most free actions are only usable during your turn (looking again at the definition, it doesn't really say anywhere, but every GM/thread I've consulted says so). Speaking is an exception to that, but you can't decide to grip your longsword two-handed for an AoO. Re-drawing it is only possible during your turn.

Also, while throwing it is a free action, you're still limited by how many attacks you get, that's been clarified for sure. While free actions generally don't provoke, every single throwing action does, so it stands to reason that throwing a shield provokes as well.
I think the main problem is that the throwing shield is weirdly worded. I'm filling in for the author here, but I think unclasping was intended as a free action, but the way it's worded, the act of throwing is as well. I'd chance it from this:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.
To this:
This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp it as a free action and throw it. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield’s enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls.

Emphasis mine to show what I've changed. Again, I'm filling in for the author, but it reflects the clarifications made about it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Emphasis mine to show what I've changed. Again, I'm filling in for the author, but it reflects the clarifications made about it.

Do you have a link to the clarification made?


Huh, can't find any official word about it, but I recall finding it when I researched the matter a while ago. People seemed to agree you can't throw a shield as a free attack, at least.


James Risner wrote:
That is how you make your spot at a table no longer welcome.

This is the kind of statement I don't like to see in this thread. It's my fault this conversation got started, so I apologize to everyone for asking an off-topic question. Now please stop posting things like this here. This is, as Scott said, a theorycrafting thread.

Quentin Coldwater, by the same token, please post any errata you find (and a link to the source), because that's important to know. But please don't post changes you would make at your table. Other gamers' problems are our opportunities here in the DPR thread.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I find this thread useful when rules are kept in the defendable realm, and entirely useless when blantanly deviating from the rules by purposefully reading a rule incorrectly. If the majority of the people in this thread prefer that, fine. I should butt out. But the builds don't demonstrate that here. The vast majority of them are defendable or at least debated. That throwing rule isn't debated by more than a handful of people asserting it works and thounsands who disagree if asked.

Plus I only responded because you indicated you might want to bring it to a campaign that has frequently said RAW means "don't change encounters" and also "play by RAI over awkward rules interpretations" and "if a clarification exists use it."


2 people marked this as a favorite.
James Risner wrote:
I find this thread useful when rules are kept in the defendable realm, and entirely useless when blantanly deviating from the rules by purposefully reading a rule incorrectly.

I agree 100%.

Please note that I didn't quote your reply to me, but to someone else. You weren't answering a question he asked, just discouraging him from following a line of honest inquiry. Any post along the lines of "you won't be welcome at my gaming table if you try this", in my opinion, should not be here, in the thread where we're trying to optimize characters to their theoretical limits within the rules. My hope is that at this point, we can go back to talking about how the rules work, and not whether a given GM would allow them.

On a completely separate note, it seems to me the rule in question here isn't blatantly deviating from the rules, because it literally says in the description "attack as a free action." I've heard there's no such thing as RAW, because we all interpret things differently, but I can't imagine reading that as anything other than "you can attack with this as a free action" without twisting the meaning of words beyond usefulness.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Also, while throwing it is a free action, you're still limited by how many attacks you get, that's been clarified for sure.

I'm interested in this. Would you please provide a source for this ruling?

Normally, attacks are limited by the rules for BAB and Full-round actions, or standard actions (for single attacks). But in the absence of errata specifically for throwing shields, they say you attack as a free action, and you have arbitrarily many free actions in a round (in theory, which is what matters here).

But the rules for Full attacks say "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." So taking this exactly as written, it seems you can make arbitrarily many attacks (because they're free action attacks), but you have to use a full-round action to make all of them. There's no limit on how many attacks you can make as a full-round action though, because these aren't attacks derived from high BAB.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You are better served by reading any of the other well hashed out threads on that subject. Frankly It's one of the rules discussions that I find trouble giving any effort defending as it is so blatantly not worth time showing it any credence.

Why? Because all discussions go on for hundreds of posts that look like:
It works
No it doesn't see here
That doesn't say it doesn't works that says it works.
How about here.
Still works.
Here
Still works
Dev post here.
Still works.
Here
Works
...
...
...

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here, I FAQed it for you guys. Go click the FAQ button.


James Risner wrote:
Frankly It's one of the rules discussions that I find trouble giving any effort defending as it is so blatantly not worth time showing it any credence.

I think it's totally fine for you to feel that way. My opinion is: who cares if a rule is worth defending? I only care if it's correct or not. And the great thing about RAW is, we can always answer that question with a yes, no, or "the answer is undefined" (e.g. when it references something that doesn't exist)

I love when we find things that are horribly broken and let us do silly things, like the psionic sandwich, or Pun Pun. Theoretical optimization is its own reward for me, regardless of it's ability to be used in a game - and I suspect the people who post builds here feel similarly.

In fact, many theoretical builds should not be used in a game, even though they're completely rules-legal, because they are so unbalancing. But limiting ourselves to things allowed at a game table is practical optimization, not theoretical optimization (and also impossible in the abstract, because different tables have different rules). And while PO is a fine thing, my understanding is that it's not a limit for this thread.

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