The DPR Summer Olympics, or What are we supposed to use? Harsh language?


Advice

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@A Man in Black
I disagree that the point should be to measure all you can with math. If that were the case then the easiest way to do it would be to run the characters in a ton of actual games and track the DPS. Alternately you could write a CRPG to do the same thing faster. Alternately you could make a complicated probability tree that matches up to what you'd likely see "on average" in a given day, but this would be rediculously complicated.

However, my point was not that your game should be more realistic, but rather that it doesn't have to be to serve its purpose. I think this is still true if you describe your game as a way to baseline character DPS.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

thepuregamer wrote:

would ability damage builds be out of place here?

I guess they would. this is just about dpr benchmarks.

Go for it. Ability damage is just as easily measured as regular old HP damage.

Quote:

Is leadership allowed?

It would be interesting to see how Butterfly Sting with a scythe, and a cohort with a high crit-range would work out for DPS. 15-20/x4 is nothing to sneeze at.

Go for it, although Leadership is going to be the highest-DPR (and, in general, highest-impact) feat for anyone ever, even without synergy feats like this.

Quote:
Again this is skewing things in that it favors those spending for +3 weapons over those that don't.

In real play, anyone who specializes in melee is likely to be using a +1 (damage boosting effects) weapons with GMW enhancing them, regardless of whether they can cast GMW themselves. I didn't see the enhancement bonus on the Black Blade Progression table, and it's not anywhere in the text. (I'm used to ignoring almost-certainly-wrong tables in favor of the rules text.) >:|

Bladebound magi do free up a ton of WBL in real play, so that advantage should be reflected here.

Anyway, carry on. Omelite's magus is fine, guille f's needs some fiddling.

Quote:
Alternately you could make a complicated probability tree that matches up to what you'd likely see "on average" in a given day, but this would be rediculously complicated.

Alternately, we could just measure how much damage a character does with a single attack and with a full attack, since that's all that we set out to measure from the beginning. If you want to do a more holistic examination of how effective such-and-such class is at delivering damage, then you're necessarily going to involve a lot more subjective elements, starting with what is included in your probability tree and how you weight each branch. The complication isn't the issue; I'm confident some sort of rational scoring system could be made and used.

The issue is that it would be exceedingly subjective, even moreso than this. I said from the beginning that the DPR numbers aren't scores. They're just a measure of how much damage characters can do with a full attack before being buffed by the party. It's not a game: there's no way to win.

My main frustration, and the main source of skew away from practical play, is the degree of dumpster-diving. Paizo publishes a lot of goofy, ill-considered character options in setting books, adventures, and such. If they publish something as silly as guided weapon or the too-cheap, weird-buff-type ioun stones in one issue of one AP or in some Pathfinder setting book, should that be a part of the baseline? Mostly, I've dealt with this dilemma by letting other people use those options and not worrying about them myself.


MiB, thanks for the reply-- let me correct and clarify.

Yes, I made a mistake on the fully-buffed DPR and your number is right(I think you made a mistake on the Round 1 calculation, though). That means that Fred is slightly outgunned by Farshot Fallon, even with some happy assumptions. Fred is at 69.4 DPR, 2 DPR behind Fallon, even with Flame Arrow+ stacked elemental damage on his bow + Arcane Strike. If Fred can't do an elemental cocktail, DPR drops by 2. If can't use flame arrow (or Fallon borrows it), Fred loses 9.6 DPR. If Fred can't Arcane Strike (say, because it is round 1), Fred loses 11.8 DPR (slightly less, actually, because at this point he has no reason not to deadly aim and recover some damage). Worst case, that's a very chumpy 49.8 DPR.

And honestly that makes me feel better about the fighter comparison, since Fred has a better melee backup, similar HP (with false life), similar defenses (with mage armor), and a bunch of utility spells and hexes for when neither sword nor bow is the right tool. Plus, with any warning at all he adds a 10 minute Gravity Bow (7.6 DPR), and any to hit bonus he gains (say, from casting haste on the party) can readily translate into more damage via the application of Deadly Aim.

Addressed in detail below.

Spoiler:

A Man In Black wrote:


Flame Arrow is kind of borderline, ruleswise

As you point out, I can casually share flame arrows with any other archers in the party and non-archers can't have the buff. I think it's reasonable to include under the challenge rules... but you've handily pulled out the damage bonus it provides for comparison in any case. I could try to weasel in Gravity bow for an extra 7.4 DPR, but it only lasts 10 minutes and I can't yet swift-cast it.

A Man In Black wrote:


If Fred has no resources whatsoever.... This is mostly academic, as he's got plenty of pool points to spend.

Agreed. At that point Fred would spam hexes.

A Man In Black wrote:


Check my math?

My mistakes, two of them (and thanks for showing the math-- helped me figure out where I went wrong). I allowed manyshot to crit, and double-counted base damage on crits. Corrected and I see your numbers on my version of the formula.

Note I have the option of ditching +2 enhancement for +2d6 on an enemy without energy resistances. That inches non-DA damage back up to 69.44. Combining that with deadly aim is a straight downgrade, however.

On your math for Round 1 attacks:

A Man In Black wrote:


Most of the time, he will use Arcane Pool to buff his weapon to +5, with an element type appropriate to whatever enemy he's fighting.
That attack routine is [ed: for round 1, without arcane strike]
+5 [element] longbow +15(x2)/+15/+10 d8+8+d6 (20/x3)

Negatory. All Fred loses on from Arcane Strike is +4 damage.

To hit remains 7 BAB+6 DEX +1 Bracers+1 Weapon Focus +5 Enhancement-2 Rapid Shot= +18x2/18/13 d8+8(3 Str 5 Enh) +d6 That yields a DPR of 56.1 with my corrected calculations, or 58 with deadly aim. On round 1 Fred will still be sorely tempted to Evil Eye a big bad guy so the party can alpha strike and/or caste haste on the party, but this is a DPR competition, so 58 is the relevant number.

A Man In Black wrote:


Did you mean to take Evil Eye instead of Cackle? Cackle is what's on the character sheet, but it doesn't seem awfully useful without Evil Eye.

No. because Evil Eye came free with the Hexcrafter ACF-- the character as built gets Evil Eye, Slumber, AND Cackle. That lets me be a Fell Cheerleader maintain Evil Eye indefinitely with Cackle despite my weak DC's, and throw a Slumber at the bad guy (or evil eye at his minions) while I'm at it. Of course, no full attacks while cackling.

A Man In Black wrote:


Wait a second. Where are these magi getting free +3 weapons from?

In Fred's case, gold pieces. (Actually, I pretty much stole Farshot Fallon's gear wholesale, with minor fiddling on defense and melee backup). Black Blades can't be longbows. In a real game, Fred would cast GMW on his weapon and invest in +Holy... but the rules of the challenge say no, because Fred's friends would do that too if they were traveling with Fred. Fred would be grumpy if they didn't buy level 3 pearls of power, though.


Yar.

I almost want to suggest an add-on to appease those who feel that they should be able to include as many buffs as they wish before doing their DPR...

...and that is to figure out average DPR/enounter as well. On round 1 you do DPR 0 (as your buffing). On round 2 you get off an attack (or full-attack) and do DPR X. Your DPR/E for a 2 round encounter would be (0+X)/2. On round three you do Y damage. DPR/E3 would = (0+X+Y)/3. Etc.

However, this is NOT the intention of this thread. For the intention of this thread, I suggest reading and following the rules given in the OP.

And rather than derail this thread with "your rules are {enter degrading term here}, you should allow this / I should be able to include this / etc", why not create a new thread that does do 25 pt buy or does allow unlimited pre-calculation buffs, or whatever.

And as AMiB said:

Quote:

"Alternately, we could just measure how much damage a character does with a single attack and with a full attack, since that's all that we set out to measure from the beginning.

...

I said from the beginning that the DPR numbers aren't scores. They're just a measure of how much damage characters can do with a full attack before being buffed ..."

~P


Another pouncing synthesist

Half-elf synthesist summoner 10

Average DPR vs 24 AC 146 (without charging)
+1 hit 15
+1 damage 11
+1 attack 23
vs 24 AC and 10 DR 72

Stats:

Eidolon base form quadruped
Favored class 2 evolution points
Exotic weapon proficiency racial

144 HP (68 HP from the summoner’s own CON bonus + 76 temporary from the Eidolon and its CON bonus)

Large +3 Bastard Sword (main hand, held two handed) +17/+12 (BAB 8 + 10 STR + 3 Enchant + 1 WF – 1 Size -4 multiweapons) 


4x +1 Large Bastard Swords (off hands, held one handed) +15

Bite +16 (BAB 8 + 10 STR + 1 Enchant – 1 Size - 2 Secondary) 


4 Tentacle +17 (BAB 8 + 10 STR + 1 Enchant +1 weapon focus – 1 Size – 2 Secondary)

STR 31 (14) DEX 18 (8) CON 18 (14) INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 16 Numbers in parentheses are the summoners physical stats when not merged.

AC/Touch/Flat Footed 30/14/27 (10 Base + 4 Mage Armor + 4 Dex + 10 Natural + 2 shield + 1 Deflection – 1 size)

Fort/Reflex/Will +12/+11/+14 (+ 3 resistance + 2 circumstance)

Gear, Feats, Evolutions:
Gear: +3 large bastard sword, 4x +1 large bastard swords, +1 amulet of mighty fists, +4 Belt of strength, +3 Cloak of Resistance, +1 Ring of Protection, Handy Haversack 1500 gp left

Feats: 
Exotic Weapon (bastard sword), Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Focus (tentacle) Arcane Strike, Double Slice, Two Weapon Fighting,
Multiattack (bonus)

Evolutions 16 points: 
4x Tentacles (4 points) 
Large (4 points) 
3x Arms (6 points) Improved Damage Tentacle (1 point) Pounce (1 point)

A perversion of a build I posted elsewhere inspired by Zurai . Even dumping most protective items this thing is still way over the survival test. You could even drop all the defensive items and still be ok. The summoner does not qualify for two weapon fighting with his low dex but I am assuming that if the merged synthesist refused to sleep for a few days and therefor not lose his merged form, perhaps being refreshed by lesser restoration, the physical stat boosts would count as permeant and he could learn two weapon fighting and double slice. I am not sure how this would scale as he has five weapons and an amulet of mighty fists to upgrade but he really does not seem to need other gear.


Fedwyck the Plain and Mr. Bubbles

Half-elf Summoner

Stats CHA: 19, others unnecessary

Mr. Bubbles

Stats

Spoiler:

30 (38 see below)
Dex 18 (16 see below)
Con 13 (17 see below)
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11

Defenses

Spoiler:

AC: 23 (24 see below)
CMD: 33 (37 see below)
Saves:
Fort +9
Reflex +9
Will +8

Feats

Spoiler:

Iron Will
Weapon Focus (Tentacle)
Improved Natural Attack (Tentacle)
Improved Natural Attack (Bite)

Evolutions

Spoiler:

Tentacles x4
Str +4
Damage Reduction 5/good
Energy Attack (acid)
Bite (raises Str Bonus to damage)
Improved damage (bite)
Improved Damage (tentacle)

Items

Spoiler:

Amulet of Mighty Fists (vicious)
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack (on Fewyck)
Headband of Charisma +2 (on Fedwyck)

DPR:152.365(176.765 see below)

Spoiler:

Fedwyck casts Evolution surge (Large) on Mr. Bubbles, I am technically breaking the rules here but I think it follows the spirit (not taking an action from the full attacker) which as a CG character is appropriate.

Mr. Bubbles takes his full attack of one bite, and 4 tentacles. Bite @+21 to hit does 3d6+1d6+2d6+21, tentacles @+20 to hit do 2d6+1d6+2d6+14 each.

Bite: .9(42)+.05(2(.9(32.5)= 40.725 Damage
Tentacles: .85(31.5)+.05(2(.85(21)))= 27.91 Four attacks= 114.96
Total:152.365

I do believe a "greedy cleric" situation exists here, as a Greater Magic Fang spell would only benefit a Monk or other Animal Companion, and Druids can take care of their own damn pets.

19 CHA allows for 4 GMFs at 10 hour durations, those go on tentacles.

Bite: .9(42)+.05(2(.9(32.5)= 40.725 Damage
Tentacles: .95(33.5)+.05(2(.95(23)=34.01 four of those= 136.04
Total: 176.765


Ia, Ia, Mr. Bubbles!


There have been some mentioning of wasted +Hit going about on the 2-handed fighters, and I'd like to mention that one possible solution would be to use Large Weapons.

Since Zelda is using an Elvin Long sword, she can jump her damage die to 2d8 by making it sized for a fire giant. The -2 to attack doesn't really matter because you'd miss on a 1 anyways.

This should help out dudes itemizing 2handers, especially since they don't come at any additional cost (I think.)


Jeranimus Rex wrote:

There have been some mentioning of wasted +Hit going about on the 2-handed fighters, and I'd like to mention that one possible solution would be to use Large Weapons.

Since Zelda is using an Elvin Long sword, she can jump her damage die to 2d8 by making it sized for a fire giant. The -2 to attack doesn't really matter because you'd miss on a 1 anyways.

This should help out dudes itemizing 2handers, especially since they don't come at any additional cost (I think.)

A large one handed weapon becomes a two handed weapon for a medium wielder a large two handed weapon becomes un-wield-able to a medium wielder.


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Hey

This is my first build in this edition of the DPRlympics, and i thought id take another look at the summoner. First i need to say that i do realise that he isnt completely legal, becouse he utilizes the 1m/level summon monster. But then again there is also a very good chance that he will complete an entire dungeon in that time, considering every combat should be one rounded.

Mr. Idoitsolo gnome summoner

Idoitsolo:

He has
dex: 14
Con: 13 + 2 gnome +1 level + 2 belt = 18
wis: 12
Cha: 15 + 2 gnome + 1 (level) + 6 (hat) = 24
rest of the stats are not important

saves:
fort: +10 reflex: +5 will: +13

AC: 10 + 3 + 1 + 4 mage armor +1 size = 19 (not using it for anything)
HP: 8 + 9d8 + 40 + 10 = 98

ability: augment summoning,

feats: extra summons, skill focus (k nature), iron will, eldritch heritage (sylvan), superior summoning

summon monster 13 times

8 haste spells

items: cha hat +6 (36k), con belt +2 (4k), +3 cloak of resistance (9k), bracers of armor +3 (9k), amulet of natural armor +1 (1k)

The strategy is simple. Summon 13 dire lions and watch as they clear out the dungeon, buff them up with haste when ever they need it. Haste is not in the calculations. Then gently strole in and take the treasure.

A dire lion does 45.69 DPR while charging, and 39.2 while full attacking.

13 Dire lions will do 597.5 to 510.8 DPR, and even more if they take a break and get hasted by the summoner.

Stealing the animal companion from Omelite, that does 42.9.

So with no haste, his little army does between 553.7 and 640.4 DPR. Pretty much instant killing any encounter and quite easily to then take a dungeon in 10 mins. Talk about a class that can do solo. Also have some gold left over, but no idea what to get for it


nicklas Læssøe wrote:


13 Dire lions will do 597.5 to 510.8 DPR, and even more if they take a break and get hasted by the summoner.

So with no haste, his little army does between 553.7 and 640.4 DPR. Pretty much instant killing any encounter and quite easily to then take a dungeon in 10 mins. Talk about a class that can do solo. Also have some gold left over, but no idea what to get for it

Umm try coordinating 13 large creatures in anything but open plains. Let alone having them all be able to charge.

-James


That, and something with fly or any number of other things pretty much just beats it, and at level 10 those kinds of things should be anything but rare.

It's good for what it is, though (and I'm kind of surprised the kinds of ill-conceived summoner additions that are in Ultimate Magic made it into print, but what can you do.)


nicklas Læssøe wrote:

Hey

This is my first build in this edition of the DPRlympics, and i thought id take another look at the summoner. First i need to say that i do realise that he isnt completely legal, becouse he utilizes the 1m/level summon monster. But then again there is also a very good chance that he will complete an entire dungeon in that time, considering every combat should be one rounded.

Mr. Idoitsolo gnome summoner

** spoiler omitted **

The strategy is simple. Summon 13 dire lions and watch as they clear out the dungeon, buff them up with haste when ever they need it. Haste is not in the calculations. Then gently strole in and take the treasure.

A dire lion does 45.69 DPR while charging, and 39.2 while full attacking.

13 Dire lions will do 597.5 to 510.8 DPR, and even more if they take a break and get hasted by the summoner.

Stealing the animal companion from Omelite, that does 42.9.

So with no haste, his little army does between 553.7 and 640.4 DPR. Pretty much instant killing any encounter and quite easily to then take a dungeon in 10 mins. Talk about a class that can do solo. Also have some gold left over, but no idea what to get for it

so if your summoner is a regular summoner, then he can only have out 1 creature from his summon monster ability at a time right. So I assume this is a master summoner.

though this is pretty impressive. I am surprised you went with dire lions since you do not benefit from superior summons in this way right. around lvl 17 though, greater eldritch heritage in the abyssal line would get you added summons which would be pretty nuts.

Otherwise, it looks ok. I had not paid much attention to the master summoner and so I missed the insanity involved here. I think master summoner is an archetype that has pushed the summoner up to the top tier of classes. Except for divination wizards, I would find it difficult to see what beats a character with access to that many semi long duration minions.


james maissen wrote:


Umm try coordinating 13 large creatures in anything but open plains. Let alone having them all be able to charge.

-James

to be honest, I am personally of the opinion that dire lions is one of his weaker options. which is pretty freaking scary.


Something that I wanted to comment on regarding Hannah of the Harsh Words: to my knowledge Weird Words' attacks apply to separate targets; you cannot focus all X words on a single creature.

Silver Crusade

Now that I think about it, did That Dire Lion DPR include the fact that they can be Celestial or Fiendish (and with UM I believe they can be Axiomatic and Anarchic as well) becuase that would change things somehwat..


yeah, Lions? I build the dungeon with steel doors, no locks, just a handle they can't use. Done, your spells are wasted.


Fenrisnorth wrote:
yeah, Lions? I build the dungeon with steel doors, no locks, just a handle they can't use. Done, your spells are wasted.

why couldn't he follow the lions while invisible and open doors for them? Not sure how the 10 minute long summons are wasted.


Second comment on Hannah of the Harsh Words: assuming all words could target the same creature, unless Hannah is in greater invisibility or some such - only the first word would get sneak attack damage, afterwards Hannah is revealed and the remaining attacks apply against a non-flat enemy.

I do have some concerns using sneak attack on words, but I think I am okay to just roll with it.


so I am mulling over possible str damage builds.

1. lvl 10 ninja who takes pressure points and crippling strike.
a) he two weapon fights using a rod of withering in the off hand and a regular weapon in the main hand(because he cannot afford 2 rods). In the past some people have said that a rod functions like a light mace and thus you should be able to full attack with it. Also I do not see any text in sneak attack that would prevent it from being used with the rod. So a sneak attack would proc pressure points and pressure points would likely seem allow crippling strike to work because with pressure points, you are dealing damage. I am leaning away from this build though.

b) the ninja uses shurikens that he pre dips in poison. he takes the the flurry of stars trick, and possibly takes two weapon fighting or rapid shot as well. magical shurikens are expensive though. so possibly another negative side.
c) a ninja who gets 2 claws, a bite, unarmed strikes, and armor spikes. I am currently unsure how to get claws and a bite. There are some rules I am murky on so bear with me on example c. Is it ok to pick a monster race like a changeling? that way I can get claws. Then I have heard of but not read from an actual source that there is a half orc racial trait called tusked that gives a bite attack. If I could, could the changeling pick up the adopted racial trait and then use it to grab tusked. Otherwise, all my other ideas seem to come up short on getting 3 natural weapon attacks. Does anyone have ideas?


thepuregamer wrote:


so if your summoner is a regular summoner, then he can only have out 1 creature from his summon monster ability at a time right. So I assume this is a master summoner.

though this is pretty impressive. I am surprised you went with dire lions since you do not benefit from superior summons in this way right. around lvl 17 though, greater eldritch heritage in the abyssal line would get you added summons which would be pretty nuts.

Otherwise, it looks ok. I had not paid much attention to the master summoner and so I missed the insanity involved here. I think master summoner is an archetype that has pushed the summoner up to the top tier of classes. Except for divination wizards, I would find it difficult to see what beats a character with access to that many semi long duration minions.

Yes the summoner is the master summoner, or the build would not function. I do realise that i can benefit from more minions, but could also be 10 dire lions and a bunch of other lover level stuff with ranged attacks.

The reason i didnt look at the best possible summon lineup, is that i really didnt need to to prove my point. The crazy thing is that if the enemy is flying, then he makes an army to combat that, and so on and so forth. He has pretty much no weakness, and can just run around in invis while the army kills.

He could also get by with an insane DPR with just 4 minions and his animal companion, then he could last 3 encounters of 10 mins each, still extremely insane.

I didnt go for the abyssal build, becouse it only pays of at lvl 17 and this is level 10.


Endoralis wrote:
Now that I think about it, did That Dire Lion DPR include the fact that they can be Celestial or Fiendish (and with UM I believe they can be Axiomatic and Anarchic as well) becuase that would change things somehwat..

Yes its actually included, but besides giving them a single smite evil or good ability. Then it dosnt give them any improved stats for damage.


LoreKeeper wrote:

Something that I wanted to comment on regarding Hannah of the Harsh Words: to my knowledge Weird Words' attacks apply to separate targets; you cannot focus all X words on a single creature.

Why wouldn't they?


Twenty Suns, below, is stat-wise largely built on Swordy Sam; credit and critique due to A Man In Black.

Side-note: Swordy Sam probably doesn't work as written, as flurry never applies a 1.5 strength bonus (which I at least equate to the power-attack progression as well). So a -3/+6 progression instead of -3/+9.

I really like the monk of the empty hand archetype - it essentially means that no-matter what super-weapon an adventure might make available to the heroes, the monk can flurry it. He's the go-to guy for whenever a great weapon comes around that nobody really wants to use because of their commitments to other weapons (weapon focus, weapon specialization, reach weapon, finessable weapon, trip/disarm weapon, etc). Add to this that at level 11 the monk of the empty hand gets the inquisitor-like bane ability by spending ki-points, he can really stack up decent damage quite quickly as he levels.

I'll be the first to admit that the premise for the interactions on Twenty Suns, below, may not fly at every table: it uses Monk of the Empty Hand and Weapon Adept archetypes; the legitimacy question revolves around whether the monk can wield a quarterstaff as an improvised weapon (functioning equivalent to a quarterstaff) and still gain the weapon adept free feats (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) applied to itself. Assuming all that flies, the monk can use a ki point to make his improvised weapon use his unarmed damage for a round - furthermore improvised weapon mastery expands the base threat range of the improvised weapon to 19-20/x2; finally the level 10 bonus monk feat adds Improved Critical to expand the threat range even more, kinda similar to Swordy Sam - but without the Ghost-Touch re-ki-ing, but instead with the ability to wield a 2d6 17-20/x2 weapon (going up to 2d8 17-20/x2 at level 11 thanks to the Monk's Robe).

Well, if all of this is okay at your table, the results are below:

Twenty Suns, human monk 10:

Archetypes: monk of the empty hand, weapon adept and qinggong monk
qinggong gives up slowfall for barkskin, reflected in the AC below

Ability Scores
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 hat)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)

Saves:
Fort 9; Reflex 9; Will 11

AC 26 (3 wis + 2 dex + 3 monk + 1 dodge + 4 natural + 2 armor + 1 deflection)
BAB: +7 (+10 with flurry) CMB: +16 CMD: 39

Attacks:
+3 improvised quarterstaff flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d8+11 17-20/x2)
+3 ki-enhanced improvised quarterstaff flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (2d6+11 17-20/x2)

Special:
14 ki points - or 10 if power attack / furious focus feats are taken

Feats:
human - toughness
level 1 - improved initiative
monk 1 - dodge
monk 2 - deflect arrows
free 2 - weapon focus (quarterstaff)
level 3 - improved grapple
level 5 - extra ki
monk 6 - improvised weapon mastery
free 6 - weapon specialization (quarterstaff)
level 7 - extra ki / power attack
level 9 - extra ki / furious focus
monk 10- improved critical (quarterstaff)

Gear:
+3 Quarterstaff (18300)
Belt of +4 str (16000)
Hat of +2 wis (14000)
Bracers of Armor +2 (4000)
Monk's Robe (13000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Haversack (2000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)

Normal
Base flurry: 2 * 0.75 * 1.2 * 15.5 + 2 * 0.5 * 1.2 * 15.5 = 46.5
Ki-enhanced flurry: 2 * 0.75 * 1.2 * 20 + 2 * 0.5 * 1.2 * 20 = 60
Extra attack: +14
Extra attack, enhanced: +18

With power attack: -3/+6
Base flurry: 0.75 * 1.2 * 21.5 + 0.6 * 1.2 * 21.5 + 2 * 0.35 * 1.2 * 21.5 = 52.89
Ki-enhanced flurry: 0.75 * 1.2 * 26 + 0.6 * 1.2 * 26 + 2 * 0.35 * 1.2 * 26 = 63.96
Extra attack: +16
Extra attack, enhanced: +19

With power attack: -3/+9
Base flurry: 0.75 * 1.2 * 24.5 + 0.6 * 1.2 * 24.5 + 2 * 0.35 * 1.2 * 24.5 = 60.27
Ki-enhanced flurry: 0.75 * 1.2 * 29 + 0.6 * 1.2 * 29 + 2 * 0.35 * 1.2 * 29 = 71.34
Extra attack: +18
Extra attack, enhanced: +21


Shadow_of_death wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Something that I wanted to comment on regarding Hannah of the Harsh Words: to my knowledge Weird Words' attacks apply to separate targets; you cannot focus all X words on a single creature.

Why wouldn't they?

From RAW and RAI considerations:

To wit: not considering balance details, my initial reading of the text was that it was a form of area attack (i.e. distinct targets for each word). The notion that all attacks might apply to one target didn't occur to me until I read this thread; now in searching the forums a bit, I see the question has come up (though not been answered) several times. That, to me, makes this a case of RAW being ambiguous.

Then: because the words are ambiguous/unclear about whether single-targets are allowed and having a performance that deals 10d8 + 10xCharismaModifier for 20+ rounds at level 10 is silly. You maintain for free - so you still have your normal attacks and spells once you start the performance. The price is giving up "Suggestion that only works on fascinated creatures", and of course a round of performance every round. I think the RAI is quite obvious, namely that each sound hits a different target.


Just my opinion, but I don't think you can benefit from things like weapon focus (short sword) if your hitting them with handle, likewise I don't think a quarterstaff being used as an improvised weapon counts as a quarterstaff for this purpose either. But that may just be me.


Yeah, do weapon focus (improvised weapon)


Fenrisnorth wrote:
Yeah, do weapon focus (improvised weapon)

is that even possible?


LoreKeeper wrote:


From RAW and RAI considerations:

To wit: not considering balance details, my initial reading of the text was that it was a form of area attack (i.e. distinct targets for each word). The notion that all attacks might apply to one target didn't occur to me until I read this thread; now in searching the forums a bit, I see the question has come up (though not been answered) several times. That, to me, makes this a case of RAW being ambiguous.

Then: because the words are ambiguous/unclear about whether single-targets are allowed and having a performance that deals 10d8 + 10xCharismaModifier for 20+ rounds at level 10 is silly. You maintain for free - so you still have your normal attacks and spells once you start the performance. The price is giving up "Suggestion that only works on fascinated creatures", and of course a round of performance every round. I think the RAI is quite obvious, namely that each sound hits a different target.

So RAW nothing says it can't target one creature and RAI could go either way. So clarification would be nice but so far I am leaning toward being able to hit one creature.


Yar!

LoreKeeper wrote:


Side-note: Swordy Sam probably doesn't work as written, as flurry never applies a 1.5 strength bonus (which I at least equate to the power-attack progression as well). So a -3/+6 progression instead of -3/+9.

Just a quick little FYI: this is not true. The progression/bonuses from Power Attack have nothing to do with how much strength bonus damage you are inflicting (with the exception called out being how to determine the progression for natural attacks).

Also see my post here in the "rules most people don't know" thread.

A monk performing a Flurry of Blows with a weapon wielded in two hands gain the Power Attack bonus gained from wielding a weapon in two hands. They still only add 1x their strength modifier. The two mechanics are not intertwined.

~P


Shadow_of_death wrote:


A large one handed weapon becomes a two handed weapon for a medium wielder a large two handed weapon becomes un-wield-able to a medium wielder.

Right, so if you take feats to learn a one handed weapon (or make a weapon one handed, such as a bastard sword or Dwarven War Axe) Then you'd be able to have larger damage dice w/ pretty high crit weapons.

It's a way to suck up "wasted" hit rating and increase damage as well.


thepuregamer wrote:
Fenrisnorth wrote:
Yeah, do weapon focus (improvised weapon)
is that even possible?

Why wouldn't it be?


LoreKeeper wrote:
Shadow_of_death wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Something that I wanted to comment on regarding Hannah of the Harsh Words: to my knowledge Weird Words' attacks apply to separate targets; you cannot focus all X words on a single creature.

Why wouldn't they?

From RAW and RAI considerations:

To wit: not considering balance details, my initial reading of the text was that it was a form of area attack (i.e. distinct targets for each word). The notion that all attacks might apply to one target didn't occur to me until I read this thread; now in searching the forums a bit, I see the question has come up (though not been answered) several times. That, to me, makes this a case of RAW being ambiguous.

Then: because the words are ambiguous/unclear about whether single-targets are allowed and having a performance that deals 10d8 + 10xCharismaModifier for 20+ rounds at level 10 is silly. You maintain for free - so you still have your normal attacks and spells once you start the performance. The price is giving up "Suggestion that only works on fascinated creatures", and of course a round of performance every round. I think the RAI is quite obvious, namely that each sound hits a different target.

I am fairly certain you can use them all against one enemy, otherwise it would be too weak.

Consider this:
* It's 1d8+mCha damage a word. It's not 10d8+10*mCha, it's 1d8+mCha 10 times.

* The damage must be a physical type. Hello DR.

* They *do* happen to be magical, so they aren't totally useless.

* They need to make a ranged touch to hit.

* Fortitude halves it.

Even pumping just Charisma and you're left at a disadvantage to the smallest bit of DR. Let's say you have 30 Cha, for +10. That's 1d8+10 damage a word. Let's assume all hit, and all clear the fortitude save. Whoops, the creature has DR 5. There goes 50 damage.

So you just did about 95 damage in a round, something melees can easily do without ever running out of uses.

DR kills this thing, since it's a bunch of small damage packets, and DR just eats that up. Plus, it has to beat three things (DR, touch AC, and fort) just to do damage.

It's really not as amazing as it first seems.


Yar.

Jeranimus Rex wrote:

Right, so if you take feats to learn a one handed weapon (or make a weapon one handed, such as a bastard sword or Dwarven War Axe) Then you'd be able to have larger damage dice w/ pretty high crit weapons.

It's a way to suck up "wasted" hit rating and increase damage as well.

A while ago I did a bunch of DPR calculations for (what I saw as) the 12 most damaging melee weapons in various scenarios (full attack, hasted full attack, single attack, move plus single vital strike, and charging). It was done at level 1 and at level 12. It was a thread about the Falcata and exotic weapons, and how they compare.

here are the level 1 numbers

here are the level 12 numbers

As you can see there, the damage increase from oversized one handed weapons vs the damage loss from the penalty to hit changes depending on the action taken. For single attacks (charges and vital strikes) the larger weapons do slightly better. But when you do a full attack, they actually end up doing slightly worse.

Note: the Sawtooth Sabre in those posts was based off the old pathfinder version from the Adventurer's Armory, NOT the updated version in the Inner Sea World guide. The AA version was considered light with exotic proficiency, whereas the ISWG version is light with exotic proficiency only for the purposed of TWF.

~P

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Finally, there is the last rule, and the most important: rule zero. Feel free to break any of these rules, as long as you make it absolutely clear that you are doing so. If you want to stat a selfish cleric or a 3.5 splat build or a character that abuses consumables or a character that demonstrates a house rule, that's fine. Just don't make people dig into your build to find out that you've done so.

Orly? ....3rd edition Wood Elf barbarian/cleric(move+10domain+war)/ranger/wildrunner; gets Pounce at 11th; +6 STR and +6 DEX while raging (no fancy tricks; both 26-to-30 easy by "teen" levels); free bite attack; Scent; Hide in Plain Sight; all enemies Will save or shaken; character built with Pathfinder "faster feats" at odd levels; Greater-TWF pair of falcatas for eight Hasted Pounce attacks at BAB11 (including the bite), with seven of them being in a 17-20/x3 weapon. Move of 60 at 6th level (all untyped, stackable bonuses) or 90 w/Haste or 180 charging.

Eh, not gonna do the math. Suffice to say it's gruesome.


Cheapy wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
Shadow_of_death wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Something that I wanted to comment on regarding Hannah of the Harsh Words: to my knowledge Weird Words' attacks apply to separate targets; you cannot focus all X words on a single creature.

Why wouldn't they?

From RAW and RAI considerations:

To wit: not considering balance details, my initial reading of the text was that it was a form of area attack (i.e. distinct targets for each word). The notion that all attacks might apply to one target didn't occur to me until I read this thread; now in searching the forums a bit, I see the question has come up (though not been answered) several times. That, to me, makes this a case of RAW being ambiguous.

Then: because the words are ambiguous/unclear about whether single-targets are allowed and having a performance that deals 10d8 + 10xCharismaModifier for 20+ rounds at level 10 is silly. You maintain for free - so you still have your normal attacks and spells once you start the performance. The price is giving up "Suggestion that only works on fascinated creatures", and of course a round of performance every round. I think the RAI is quite obvious, namely that each sound hits a different target.

I am fairly certain you can use them all against one enemy, otherwise it would be too weak.

Consider this:
* It's 1d8+mCha damage a word. It's not 10d8+10*mCha, it's 1d8+mCha 10 times.

* The damage must be a physical type. Hello DR.

* They *do* happen to be magical, so they aren't totally useless.

* They need to make a ranged touch to hit.

* Fortitude halves it.

Even pumping just Charisma and you're left at a disadvantage to the smallest bit of DR. Let's say you have 30 Cha, for +10. That's 1d8+10 damage a word. Let's assume all hit, and all clear the fortitude save. Whoops, the creature has DR 5. There goes 50 damage.

So you just did about 95 damage in a round, something melees can easily do without ever running out of uses.

DR kills...

Furthermore, your action economy concerns are unfounded:

Weird Words (SU) wrote:
At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action , lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level...

Emphasis mine. It only goes off at the start of a given performance. Maintaining it does nothing, so the user needs to spend their standard action each round...

Liberty's Edge

The following is a PFS-legal character I am currently developing (force-retire at 12th); his starting (unmodified) stats were 15,14,12,12,12,12 (so virtually identical to the "elite array", and functionally identical since STR is all that matters for our purposes here):

<cut-n-paste from me ol' squirreled-away text-file>

Spoiler:
STR:15 dwarf
DEX:12
CON+16
INT:12
WIS+14
CHA-10

Class variants: fighter(Weapon Master), barbarian(Brutal Pugilist, Drunken Brute)
Level..: Ba Rf Rr Rw Rhp Ra Rd
00 base: 00 03 01 02 000 03 00 Traits: Heirloom Weapon, Berserker of the Society
01 barb1 01 10 03 06 018 07 06 rage 10r/day, Raging Drunk(B:DB), Raging Vitality
02 cler1 01 12 03 08 029 08 06 move+10, Kurgess(Community/Travel)
03 figh1 02 14 03 08 042 09 11 Power Attack, Furious Focus
04 figh2 03 15 03 08 055 11 11 STR>16, Weapon Guard +1(F:WM), Pushing Assault
05 barb2 04 16 03 08 068 13 14 Reckless Abandon +1, Savage Grapple(B:BP), WF(Fauchard)
06 barb3 05 16 04 09 081 15 16 rage 14r/day, Pit Fighter(Sunder)(B:BP)
07 barb4 06 19 06 11 094 17 16 Reckless Abandon +2, Quick Relfexes(Rage Power), Steel Soul
08 figh3 07 19 07 12 107 19 17 STR>17, Weapon Training +1(F:WM)
09 figh4 08 20 07 12 120 20 20 Improved Critical, Improved Weapon Focus(Fauchard)
10 figh5 09 20 07 12 133 21 20 Reliable Strike +1(F:WM)
11 figh6 10 21 08 13 146 22 21 Weapon Guard +2(F:WM), Critical Focus, Shield of Swings
12 figh7 11 21 08 13 159 25 23 STR>18, Weapon Training +2(F:WM)

# Saving throws are calculated as "versus magic while raging" (i.e., +4 Rf, +6 Wi and +8 Ft for Steel Soul dwarf with Raging Vitality) since this will be the most common deployment of saves.

# Rhp = raging hitpoints....self-explanatory.

# Ra = raging attack bonus: features 1st-round cast Bless from 2nd-level, Power Attack penalties to 1st attack, Furious weapon enhancement @ 6th. Does not include a penalty for possible eventual buckler use.

# Rd = raging numerical damage bonus: 2H+PA+WT+enh only.

No magical items or spells (other than Bless) are considered in the arithmetic. Obviously saves will be even higher with a Cloak of Resistance, and attack and damage will be higher with a magical weapon and various Belts and/or Enlarge Person.

* has ten stacking bonuses to attack from just traits, feats, and class abilities.
* trades barb move for move-action drink potions -- intends to wear heavy armor anyway
* trades barb Uncanny Dodge for AoOs vs grapplers -- intends to max Perception anyway
* yay variants! barb3 no longer sucks as useless Traps+1 exchanged for sunder defenses
* has two AoOs/rnd regardless of DEX bonus (Quick Reflexes rage-power)
* alleviates Fatigue easily (Community domain)
* retrain Furious Focus to EWP:Fauchard at some (later) point
* gets AoOs versus Improved Grab monsters

-----------------------------------------

Buffs: Bless, Enlarge Person (I can cast one and drink the other as a move action prior to raging as a drunk variant barbarian.)

Full-attack at 12th with a furious weapon (+4 numerical) and assuming STR:26, but not counting Haste = (add +6 to the listed +25 Ra and +23 Rd). Assume Furious Focus retrained to EWP:Fauchard at some even-numbered later fighter level (since iteratives and AoOs don't get FF, the feat grows weak with leveling; and we need EWP in case of sunder for extra-deadly high-level post-retirement scenarios) ....so, three Power Attacks at +28/+25/+20 doing non-crit damage of 2d8+29. Crits: we are +4 to confirm crits with Critical Focus, and receive a reroll once per day (Reliable Strike).

Versus AC 26 (to keep it comparable since I'm calculating from 12th):
Attack 1 and attack 2: .95(2d8+29)+[(.3)(.95)(2)(29)] = 52.63 each
Attack 3: .75(2d8+29)+[(.3)(.90)(2)(29)] = 44.16

Total: 149.42 ...add about 110 if Haste and one AoO with a 20' polearm.
(Reduce damage by 9, or 18 crit, if Power Attack forfeited for use of Pushing Assault.)


Pirate wrote:


As you can see there, the damage increase from oversized one handed weapons vs the damage loss from the penalty to hit changes depending on the action taken. For single attacks (charges and vital strikes) the larger weapons do slightly better. But when you do a full attack, they actually end up doing slightly worse.

This is true if the player doesn't have Attack to spare.

I was just kinda skimming and noticed MiB mentioned "wasted" attack being in issue with Zelda, so I came up with the solution of using a large 1-handed weapon to soak up some of that unnecessary hit and turn it into damage.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

LoreKeeper wrote:

Something that I wanted to comment on regarding Hannah of the Harsh Words: to my knowledge Weird Words' attacks apply to separate targets; you cannot focus all X words on a single creature.

LoreKeeper wrote:

Second comment on Hannah of the Harsh Words: assuming all words could target the same creature, unless Hannah is in greater invisibility or some such - only the first word would get sneak attack damage, afterwards Hannah is revealed and the remaining attacks apply against a non-flat enemy.

I do have some concerns using sneak attack on words, but I think I am okay to just roll with it.

[citation needed]

Quote:
is [Weapon Focus (Improvised weapon)] even possible?

Sure, as long as you're somehow proficient in improvised weapons.

I don't think Weapon Adept and Monk of the Empty Hand interact in that way, though. You can wield a weapon as a weapon or as an improvised weapon, not both at the same time. It's really horribly written, though. (A running theme with APG. :/ )

Quote:
This is my first build in this edition of the DPRlympics, and i thought id take another look at the summoner. First i need to say that i do realise that he isnt completely legal, becouse he utilizes the 1m/level summon monster. But then again there is also a very good chance that he will complete an entire dungeon in that time, considering every combat should be one rounded.

Ahahaha, Ash lays down all his Pokeballs and wipes out the entire dungeon, just like in beta. Who thought this was a good idea?

Quote:
There have been some mentioning of wasted +Hit going about on the 2-handed fighters, and I'd like to mention that one possible solution would be to use Large Weapons.

Not only is this not legal, but higher ACs are common enough that you wouldn't want to commit to a -atk/+dam tradeoff unless it was much more favorable. The attack is only wasted against the standard target, not wasted in general.

Quote:
Fedwyck the Plain and Mr. Bubbles

A significant amount of the pet's damage comes from Vicious weapon, when it's no great shakes survivability-wise. 66 HP is not going to last long when it's doing 15 damage to itself per turn, even with the DR.

Quote:
The following is a PFS-legal character I am currently developing (force-retire at 12th); his starting (unmodified) stats were 15,14,12,12,12,12 (so virtually identical to the "elite array", and functionally identical since STR is all that matters for our purposes here):

This character has two extra levels, a setup turn, and consumables. It's interesting as a bit more of an actual buffed damage output, but shouldn't be compared to the others.

Anyhoo. I am idly working on a v2 beta gunslinger. Man, they are strapped for feats.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Quote:
The following is a PFS-legal character I am currently developing (force-retire at 12th); his starting (unmodified) stats were 15,14,12,12,12,12 (so virtually identical to the "elite array", and functionally identical since STR is all that matters for our purposes here):
This character has two extra levels, a setup turn, and consumables. It's interesting as a bit more of an actual buffed damage output, but shouldn't be compared to the others.

Nobody has to if they don't want to. The full build was provided, so anyone can extrapolate 10th if they care.

(10th seems an odd level to put the contest at, since it's one short of BAB11 earliest. IMO it'd be a lot more interesting (and useful) to have it at 12th -- which permits "dip-out" multiclass entries such as my guy which are BAB11 at 12th to strut their stuff.)


Yar!

nicklas Læssøe wrote:

Mr. Idoitsolo gnome summoner

Summon 13 dire lions

I would like to have some more defined numbers so that, as per this thread, we can have a realistic comparison of this to the other builds. That is, how does this fare against a single target CR 10 monster with no combat rounds spent setting up.

Against a medium sized creature, only 3 of your lions will be able to charge. The rest will have to move around to reposition to charge (that's a wasted round of combat spent setting up), or move around in order to get off a single attack... and if they do that, only 5 more lions could technically get in a single attack. That's 3 charges and 5 single attacks. Not 13.

Against a Large sized creature, that's a potential 4 charging lions and 8 single attacks (assuming you have the mobility to completely surround it), which still leaves 1 lion doing nothing.

As the OP calls for a single target CR 10 DPR with NO combat rounds setting up, could we see those numbers as well?

Thanks. ^_^

~P


Yar.

Mike Schneider wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
The following is a PFS-legal character I am currently developing (force-retire at 12th); his starting (unmodified) stats were 15,14,12,12,12,12 (so virtually identical to the "elite array", and functionally identical since STR is all that matters for our purposes here):
This character has two extra levels, a setup turn, and consumables. It's interesting as a bit more of an actual buffed damage output, but shouldn't be compared to the others.

Nobody has to if they don't want to. The full build was provided, so anyone can extrapolate 10th if they care.

(10th seems an odd level to put the contest at, since it's one short of BAB11 earliest. IMO it'd be a lot more interesting (and useful) to have it at 12th -- which permits "dip-out" multiclass entries which are BAB11 at 12th to strut their stuff.)

We've gone through this discussion already. 10th level may be odd, but that is what it is. It's what the original DPR Olympics were at, and it's what this DPR Olympics are at. If you'd like to see a 12th level DPR Olympics, then please, make a new thread for it (I'll even participate). However, coming into an established thread with a well established generation method and saying it's not useful and it should be done like this is kinda like putting a high ranking NHL team into the WHL, watch them wreck havoc, then declare that we should all only watch/play NHL hockey because it's "more interesting", and that the WHL shouldn't even exist because of this.

Sorry, but I'd rather not.

~P


Weird Words wrote:
At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action , lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level...

Emphasis mine, from Core:

Bardic Performance wrote:
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action.

Nothing in Weird Words indicates that it is not a maintainable performance.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Here's a beta gunslinger. You could probably squeeze out a bit more DPR by fidding with his weapon, but I was sticking to the non-strict rule of favoring straight bonuses. That said, distance, corrosive, or keen is probably more useful than the straight +2 bonus.

Bullet Bill, human gunslinger 10
Material used: APG feats, Ultimate Combat beta (v2) gunslinger

Spoiler:
Ability Scores:
STR: 10 (+0)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 12 (+0)
WIS: 16 (+3) (+2 hat)
CHA: 8 (-1)

HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws:
Fort: +12 Ref: +16 Will: +9 (+3 against fear)

AC: 24 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 19 (+8 +2 mithril breastplate, +5 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)

Attacks: +2 reliable pistol +19/+19/+14, d8+10 dmg (x4)

Class Abilities:
Deeds (various)
Grit (2 pts)
Gun Training (pistol, double pistol)
Bravery +3

BAB: +10 CMB: +10 CMD: 26

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Gunsmithing (bonus)
Weapon Focus (double pistol) (human bonus)
Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization (double pistol) (bonus)
Point Blank Master
Rapid Reload
Rapid Shot (bonus)
Deadly Aim

Skills:
Acrobatics
At least one rank in Craft (alchemy)
Stuff, whatever

Gear:
+2 reliable double pistol (20050)
Battered pistol x2 (0)
Belt of +4 dex (16000)
+2 mithril breastplate (8200)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Hat of +2 wis (4000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Longsword (15)
Gunsmith's kit (15)
Paper cartridges x75 (450)
270 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.


Bill loads his pistol with paper cartridges, so he reloads as a free action. He also generally benefits from Point Blank Shot, since his first range increment is only 20y to begin with. With full BAB against touch AC, he also uses Deadly Aim at short range. Most of the time, Bill just fires the main barrel of his pistol and reloads it every shot. If he gets a misfire, he stops shooting, to keep his gun from exploding.
+2 reliable double pistol +17/+17/+12, d8+17 dmg (x4)

So, against a foe within 20y, he does ~67.00 DPR. +1 damage is worth ~3.17 DPR, and an additional attack is worth ~20.19 DPR. (A single shot is worth ~23.49; each shot after the first is worth progressively less because he'll stop shooting after the first misfire.) He has a ~14.51 chance to misfire each turn, though. Increased to-hit is worthless against most foes, and not terribly useful even then because of Startling Shot.

However, at risk of blowing up his gun, he can open up with both barrels, eating the -4 penalty to hit. That attack routine is:
+2 reliable double pistol +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8, d8+17 dmg (x4)

That is ~123.22 DPR. (I've assumed that flat-footed enemies have touch AC 10; it's a tiny bit less if that's not the case.) The problem is that he runs a .75% chance of blowing up his gun every time he fires both barrels, meaning he runs a ~2.24% chance of his gun exploding every time he fires both barrels three times in succession, even if he stops after a misfire. (There's no way to keep the second barrel from firing when the first barrel misfires, since they're both firing simultaneously.) Even if the gun doesn't explode, his gun ends the round jammed ~24.51% of the time.

Check my double barrel math.:
This is the calculation. The second shot in each pair is broken down conditionally, for the first shot either hitting, missing, or misfiring. Also, the later pairs don't get fired at all if a previous shot misfired, so I account for that first.

.95*21.5*1.15 + (.95*.95*21.5*1.15 + 0.05*.85*19.5*1.15) +
.95*.95*(.95*21.5*1.15 + (.95*.95*21.5*1.15 + 0.05*.85*19.5*1.15)) +
.95*.95*.95*.95*(.85*21.5*1.15 + (.85*.85*21.5*1.15 + 0.05*.75*19.5*1.15 + 0.1*.95*21.5*1.15))


Figuring out his average DPR against non-touch AC is going to be moderately more involved, so I am going to do that after sleeping.

Pirate wrote:
I would like to have some more defined numbers so that, as per this thread, we can have a realistic comparison of this to the other builds. That is, how does this fare against a single target CR 10 monster with no combat rounds spent setting up.

It's kind of pointless. Anyone with a pride of 13 dire lions at their back just curbstomps level-appropriate opposition. Fiddling around with DPR is beside the point.

Quote:
IMO it'd be a lot more interesting (and useful) to have it at 12th -- which permits "dip-out" multiclass entries such as my guy which are BAB11 at 12th to strut their stuff.

By 12th level melee full attacks are kind of losing their luster as a strategy. Also, "dip-out" multiclass entries either don't get their dips until high levels or have to pay the price of their dip for most of their career; I consider the fact that such dips come at a cost here a feature, not a bug. Also!

Quote:
The full build was provided, so anyone can extrapolate 10th if they care.

Coming up with builds is not the time-consuming part of this. Sitting down and doing the math is the time-consuming part. "Well, someone else can do all the work" is not really super helpful.

Quote:
Nothing in Weird Words indicates that it is not a maintainable performance.

Weird Words has no stated effect when it's maintained, so generally you wouldn't want to maintain it. If you're arguing that you can maintain it and use it every turn as a free action to do a little bit of damage to a bunch of enemies in addition to your normal action, then it is absolutely the worst-designed ability ever, because it involves three die rolls per enemy in range every single turn, in addition to your normal turn. That's awful.

Anyway, enough. The math as calculated assumes it works like Scorching Ray and not "Aura of Driving Your GM Insane With A Trillion Bullshit Dierolls." If you take it to mean the latter, obviously any variation of Hannah will not work in your game. There's the entire Rules forum to argue about which is the right way, since the rules themselves are so remarkably poorly written.


A Man In Black wrote:
By 12th level melee full attacks are kind of losing their luster as a strategy. Also, "dip-out" multiclass entries either don't get their dips until high levels or have to pay the price of their dip for most of their career; I consider the fact that such dips come at a cost here a feature, not a bug. Also!

Depends upon the melee PCs. This has regional variation. But if you'd take from LG's experience for 3.5 I'd say that higher level melee fighters when done right can be VERY scary.

But it's around this level where you really see the difference in builds. This was insanely the case in 3.5, less so perhaps in Pathfinder since they beefed up the single classes.

The cut-off of 10th level does favor the medium BAB classes as the full BAB are about to get an extra attack. I think that you've seen as much in these threads. Likewise I think you've seen the typical AC benchmark favor them as well. But c'est la vie.

Btw, are caster builds reasonable here? Perforce they are based upon casting limited numbers of spells. But as evokers seem to get a bad reputation I figured I'd go ahead and do one out.

-James


james maissen wrote:


The cut-off of 10th level does favor the medium BAB classes as the full BAB are about to get an extra attack. I think that you've seen as much in these threads. Likewise I think you've seen the typical AC benchmark favor them as well. But c'est la vie.
-James

I actually think that we might all be making a major assumption here. 1 extra attack at -10 to hit might not actually give that much extra dpr. If it is only a small bump of say 5-10 ish dpr, I do not see the full bab characters as losing enough for it to majorly sway the results of the comparison.


thepuregamer wrote:


I actually think that we might all be making a major assumption here. 1 extra attack at -10 to hit might not actually give that much extra dpr. If it is only a small bump of say 5-10 ish dpr, I do not see the full bab characters as losing enough for it to majorly sway the results of the comparison.

Well let's see what a fighter-type could do at 11th level.

A barb2/fighter9 could sport a 29STR raging with a +3 furious weapon, dueling gloves and feats. This gives him a +35 (11BAB +9STR +4training +2feats +5weapon +1trait +2morale +1competence) to hit. Even at -10 he's hitting AC 27 on a 2.

So it's closer to a full hit's worth, even when power attacking (-3 to hit). So it's far more than you're possible small bump of 5-10... it's closer to 30 or so.

-James


james maissen wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:


I actually think that we might all be making a major assumption here. 1 extra attack at -10 to hit might not actually give that much extra dpr. If it is only a small bump of say 5-10 ish dpr, I do not see the full bab characters as losing enough for it to majorly sway the results of the comparison.

Well let's see what a fighter-type could do at 11th level.

A barb2/fighter9 could sport a 29STR raging with a +3 furious weapon, dueling gloves and feats. This gives him a +35 (11BAB +9STR +4training +2feats +5weapon +1trait +2morale +1competence) to hit. Even at -10 he's hitting AC 27 on a 2.

So it's closer to a full hit's worth, even when power attacking (-3 to hit). So it's far more than you're possible small bump of 5-10... it's closer to 30 or so.

-James

why are you using an edge case if you are trying to convince me of something? your barb 2 nets you an extra +4 to hit for 8 ish rounds a day. So basically after 1 1/2 encounters you drop down to +31. Furthermore, for this thread, the fighter would not likely have the +2 morale bonus to hit either(consumables are out and group buffs are not being counted). With a 6 lower to hit bonus, he is at a +19 vs a 25 ac on the last attack.

I would much rather see the general example than your fully buffed, 8 round a day example.


thepuregamer wrote:


why are you using an edge case if you are trying to convince me of something? your barb 2 nets you an extra +4 to hit for 8 ish rounds a day. So basically after 1 1/2 encounters you drop down to +31. Furthermore, for this thread, the fighter would not likely have the +2 morale bonus to hit either(consumables are out and group buffs are not being counted). With a 6 lower to hit bonus, he is at a +19 vs a 25 ac on the last attack.

I would much rather see the general example than your fully buffed, 8 round a day example.

Because I wasn't taking any time to do one fully out and quickly wanted to have a melee fighter that will have his iterative hit on around a 2?

Besides for purposes of this thread the fighter couldn't be 11th level to begin with... Also the fighter rages when he gets a full attack, so it's not likely for more than 2 rounds in a fight.. so he should be fine with 8 rounds, and could take a feat for more. But honestly I haven't messed with barbarians that much, I just wanted to get around the silly elite starting stats.

But if you want the hit on a 6 with the final iterative you're still looking at more than your 5-10 DPR aren't you?

So in other words it already answers your question. If you want to figure out exactly by how much and in what ways then take the time to figure it out yourself.

-James


james maissen wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:


why are you using an edge case if you are trying to convince me of something? your barb 2 nets you an extra +4 to hit for 8 ish rounds a day. So basically after 1 1/2 encounters you drop down to +31. Furthermore, for this thread, the fighter would not likely have the +2 morale bonus to hit either(consumables are out and group buffs are not being counted). With a 6 lower to hit bonus, he is at a +19 vs a 25 ac on the last attack.

I would much rather see the general example than your fully buffed, 8 round a day example.

Because I wasn't taking any time to do one fully out and quickly wanted to have a melee fighter that will have his iterative hit on around a 2?

Besides for purposes of this thread the fighter couldn't be 11th level to begin with... Also the fighter rages when he gets a full attack, so it's not likely for more than 2 rounds in a fight.. so he should be fine with 8 rounds, and could take a feat for more. But honestly I haven't messed with barbarians that much, I just wanted to get around the silly elite starting stats.

But if you want the hit on a 6 with the final iterative you're still looking at more than your 5-10 DPR aren't you?

So in other words it already answers your question. If you want to figure out exactly by how much and in what ways then take the time to figure it out yourself.

-James

Look I am not saying it cannot end up being more than 5-10 ish dpr. a 75% chance to hit * avg damage per hit could well be around 20.

You are also likely generally correct in regards to two handed weapon fighters. but two weapon classes full bab generally starts at an extra -2 to hit, and do not get to benefit from heirloom weapon unless they use a double weapon.

but raging for 2 rounds in a fight leaves you open to weak finishes in the 3rd or 4th round when you are at -2 to str/dex and without your rage.

furthermore,such a full bab character is almost definitely going to be power attacking since their higher iterative attacks are well over the target ac. Thus the final iterative attack could be as low as at 60% chance to hit.

For many lvl 11 twf'ers the final iterative attacks could be even lower at 45% hit chance.

What I mean by this, is perhaps we should experiment in this thread and drop in a lvl 10 and a lvl 11 full bab build for several of these options to see exactly how much that extra attack boosts the full bab class

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The test is at level 10 because I picked a random level (after lowbie levels and before melee falls off the map completely) and that happened to be it. 1/1 BAB classes only get an additional iterative attack over 3/4 BAB classes for seven out of 20 levels, so I really don't have a problem with it. If someone wants to redo all of the builds and math for level 7 or 11 or whatever, they're free to, but that's another entire thread's worth of work.

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