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At the moment I am having fun making a pathfinder elven druid. As I was going through the special racial abilities, I noticed that elves are immune to magical sleep. Come to think of it I think they were immune to sleep back before first edition, when elves were a character class in the basic D&D game. I was wondering, why are elves immune to magical sleep? I remember all of the flavor about the elven reverie, which meant that they don’t sleep, but meditate to help keep their long memories and minds cohesive.
So in short why are elves immune to magical sleep, and in terms of the games history where does this immunity come from?
Thanks.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Well of course this is not an "official" answer, but my take on it is this:
The sleep spell and other spells that induce slumber are all in the category of Enchantment (Compulsion). You are literally compelling someone to fall asleep. Elves cannot sleep. They enter a meditative trace instead. Thus, when you compel them to "sleep," they are physically incapable of complying in much the same way as you could not use dominate person to make a human fly (unless they possessed magic that allowed them to).
Well of course this is not an "official" answer, but my take on it is this:
The sleep spell and other spells that induce slumber are all in the category of Enchantment (Compulsion). You are literally compelling someone to fall asleep. Elves cannot sleep. They enter a meditative trace instead. Thus, when you compel them to "sleep," they are physically incapable of complying in much the same way as you could not use dominate person to make a human fly (unless they possessed magic that allowed them to).
Just for the record, it's not that they CANNOT sleep, they don't need to. They can, in fact sleep, if they want to.
I thought it was a hold-over from pre-Pathfinder rules when elves didn't have to sleep. I believe elves do have to sleep in Pathfinder.
Today they do.
Creative Director
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I'm not sure why elves have the sleep immunity thing; my guess is that it's some sort of link to Tolkien, though.
And in Golarion, elves do indeed sleep. They're just immune to magical sleep effects. Whether or not elves sleep in other campaigns is up to the GM in those campaigns.
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I always told players when they asked this question that it was because elves, as a highly magic-intensive and magic-using race, *and* one that liked peace, quiet, and serenity, had used Sleep spells on their children so many times as infants that by the time they reached adulthood, the constant interaction of the Sleep spells with the elves' inherent magical nature had rendered them immune to the effect.
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BTW the whole "reverie" thing was something introduced in the 2E AD&D Complete Book of Elves. I don't recall any lore before that book trying to explain *why* elves were immune to sleep.
The paralysis thing is legacy junk from the old Chainmail minis game. It had something to do with army balance.
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*Stroking his long, gray beard*
Actually, elvish immunity to sleep and paralysis spells is a relic from before 1st edition, when Gygax and the other Forefathers of DnD were developing the first rules for fantasy war games.
Elvish units were considered inferior to other racial types and given the sleep immunity to increase their effectiveness, a benefit that was carried over when the first rpg rules were written.
And so it has been ever since.
But I'm not old. Really. I swear.
Edit: Ninja'd by Yemeth.
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I'm not sure why elves have the sleep immunity thing; my guess is that it's some sort of link to Tolkien, though.
And in Golarion, elves do indeed sleep. They're just immune to magical sleep effects. Whether or not elves sleep in other campaigns is up to the GM in those campaigns.
I can't find anything in the PRD about needing to sleep....
Assuming they do need to sleep(I'll be convinced when I see the evidence, until then, elves meditate), is it still only 4 hours?
I always figured it thusly:
In 1e, a <i>sleep</i> spell could incapacitate the whole darn party, and well, that could lead to an easy TPK at low levels if everyone failed saves. Same with ghoul paralysis. By making a common race immune, it left a sort of 'out' for parties in those sorts of situations.
Just a theory, but I always figured it was as much a design thing as flavor...
Brandon
I always told players when they asked this question that it was because elves, as a highly magic-intensive and magic-using race, *and* one that liked peace, quiet, and serenity, had used Sleep spells on their children so many times as infants that by the time they reached adulthood, the constant interaction of the Sleep spells with the elves' inherent magical nature had rendered them immune to the effect.
+1 internets for you, my freind. :)
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I'd go the other way with it. Since the references to elves not needing to sleep have been removed, there's no longer a specific reference to override the general reference of characters needing 8 hours of sleep.
However, in the book, there isn't any requirement that characters need to sleep at all on a normal basis. I'd still assume that they do though :p One of those implied rules, like gravity.
As for a character development reason why elves are immune to sleep spells, I'd imagine that would have something to do with trying to stay awake studying spells all the time. Goodness knows, I'd probably pass out within an hour.
And goodness knows what the drool would wreck!
I demand an answer that involves midichlorians!
Zo
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Midi-chlorians are just tiny elves that live inside elven blood, and they go around and cast dispel magic on all the blood vessels when they detect a sleep spell.
The creepy part is that the reason that THEY'RE not affected by that sleep spell is that they have mini-midi-chlorians living inside their blood.
I'm not sure why elves have the sleep immunity thing; my guess is that it's some sort of link to Tolkien, though.
And in Golarion, elves do indeed sleep. They're just immune to magical sleep effects. Whether or not elves sleep in other campaigns is up to the GM in those campaigns.
I can't find anything in the PRD about needing to sleep....
Assuming they do need to sleep(I'll be convinced when I see the evidence, until then, elves meditate), is it still only 4 hours?
Full 8 hours. Stock elves, i.e. PF elves, sleep just like everyone else. Under the humanoid type you will see they need to breathe, eat, and sleep. Since PF elves no longer have any rules language in the races chapter, they default to the same rules as all other humanoids.
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You see, the elves are already asleep. May the day that they wake never come. The horror of what will happen cannot be described.
I like the Reverie better, honestly; it makes Elves more unique and "mystical" and gives them that "not quite human" feel. Plus it gives a nice little mechanical benefit when resting in the middle of a dungeon.
Golarion canon or not, Elves in my Kingmaker are going to trance instead of sleeping. :)
Midi-chlorians are just tiny elves that live inside elven blood, and they go around and cast dispel magic on all the blood vessels when they detect a sleep spell.
The creepy part is that the reason that THEY'RE not affected by that sleep spell is that they have mini-midi-chlorians living inside their blood.
*stroking chin* Hmmmm, I see. An infinite recursion of microscopic saga-ruiners. So simple, yet so fiendishly complex it boggles the mind and leaves an aftertaste of marzipan. Truly, this IS the only possible logical explanation. However, more research must be done. To the laBORatry!
Zo
Midi-chlorians are just tiny elves that live inside elven blood, and they go around and cast dispel magic on all the blood vessels when they detect a sleep spell.
The creepy part is that the reason that THEY'RE not affected by that sleep spell is that they have mini-midi-chlorians living inside their blood.
*stroking chin* Hmmmm, I see. An infinite recursion of microscopic saga-ruiners. So simple, yet so fiendishly complex it boggles the mind and leaves an aftertaste of marzipan. Truly, this IS the only possible logical explanation. However, more research must be done. To the laBORatry!
Zo
Hey man...I happen to like marzipan!
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Oh, that's what came from that book.
I'm curious about where the ghoul paralysis immunity came from now, as well...
In an old 'Ecology of...' either Elves or Ghouls (Way old Dragon article), it stated that the Ghoul's paralysis was the ability to tap into the victim's fear of Death. The article said that elves do not actually fear death, and were thus Immune. This was 1st ed, mind you, and more of a flavor text thing, but i thought it sounded cool as a 12 year old, and moderately cool as a 40 year old.
-Uriel
Yeah agree with Yemeth and Mynameisjake as far as I can remember from an article lots of this stuff was given to armies in 'Chainmail' to balance them out. These rules were just left in along with lots of others when Gygax and Co wrote the first DnD rules, some of the others have been taken out in re-writes. This one was left in as Fleece66 says to balance and give the party and out for 'do over everyone' spells. The rest as they say is history, reasons for this have changed over the years hence 'meditating' elves
I will try and find the article but I wouldnt hold my breath :)
had used Sleep spells on their children so many times as infants that by the time they reached adulthood, the constant interaction of the Sleep spells with the elves' inherent magical nature had rendered them immune to the effect.
LMFAO - brilliant! If I was drinking anything, I'm sure it would have come out of my nose!
Peace,
DoD - Kev'
Dont think this is where I saw the 'carry over rules' thing but has got it in and gives other reasons and inspiration for stuff. That is if your not one of those people that believe ALL stuff put here is rubbish :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_and_influences_on_the_development_of_D ungeons_&_Dragons#Elves
Sorry couldnt get the link to work so you'll have to copy it :P
Well ... far as I know it was Tolkein-based, and then when Gygax and company got a hold of it and pushed it further, there was the whole "fey" type angle they tried to work with the elves as well - at least I *think* this is where it comes from, anyway. There was a passage with Legolas or something in a "reverie" not sleeping, but at rest in an "elven way" or something to this effect.
I base this off of the general approach of giving elves Enchantment-type save bonuses, and resistances/immunities. It connects them more strongly to that "magical" creature type of being. The fey/seelie/whatever you'd like to go with of most folklore seem to heavily be users of enchantment-types of effects. Elves are amongst their number, though -- more "elf" as in tiny guys that fix shoes at night, rather than ELF as an adventuring race of human-like stature and such.
Just my 2 cents worth there.
I'm not sure why elves have the sleep immunity thing; my guess is that it's some sort of link to Tolkien, though.
It's hard to say. Elves in Tolkien were weird. They were always both awake and asleep.
And in Golarion, elves do indeed sleep. They're just immune to magical sleep effects.
Read: "We straight copied most of 3.5 OGL content."
Note: I don't find anything wrong with that itself. I just find the continued attempts to explain why things that were copied verbatim from 3.5 OGL to Pathfinder and don't make logical sense to exist in Pathfinder to be pretentious.
I'm not sure why elves have the sleep immunity thing; my guess is that it's some sort of link to Tolkien, though.
And in Golarion, elves do indeed sleep. They're just immune to magical sleep effects. Whether or not elves sleep in other campaigns is up to the GM in those campaigns.
I don't have the energy to go look at the moment, having just woken up, but I'm pretty sure Second Darkness goes into how elves don't sleep. In describing the elven town the PCs go to, it says something about there only being mats that the elves use to meditate rather than beds. And either Second Darkness or the elves book said something about elves only needing to do this meditation for four hours.
In first edition elves were not completely immune to sleep. They were 90% immune to sleep and charm.
Midi-chlorians are just tiny elves that live inside elven blood, and they go around and cast dispel magic on all the blood vessels when they detect a sleep spell.
The creepy part is that the reason that THEY'RE not affected by that sleep spell is that they have mini-midi-chlorians living inside their blood.
*stroking chin* Hmmmm, I see. An infinite recursion of microscopic saga-ruiners. So simple, yet so fiendishly complex it boggles the mind and leaves an aftertaste of marzipan. Truly, this IS the only possible logical explanation. However, more research must be done. To the laBORatry!
Zo
So, naturalists observe, a flea
Hath smaller fleas that on him prey,And these have smaller still to bite 'em,
And so proceed ad infinitum.
- Jonathan Swift
The explanation that i give to my players is certainly not an official one, but it fits my vision of elves and my campaign setting :
Elves are incarnated fey spirits, and as such they do not need to sleep.
They just need to meditate, separating their spirit from their flesh body, in a trance connecting them to the fey realm through the ethereal plane.
This is what some call the Reverie (by the way, "Reverie" means dreaming in french).
This link with the ethereal plane explains their enhanced senses (lowlight vision, secret passage detection).
This explains also why they can't be brought back to life through Raise Dead, as they don't have souls but spirits (old rule from AD&D), only Resurrection can accomplish that.
I'm pretty sure this is a Tolkien reference.
Just doing a quick google search:
Legolas already lay motionless, his fair hands folded upon his breast, his eyes unclosed, blending living night and deep dream, as is the way of elves... Gimli was still deep in slumber, but Legolas was standing, gazing northwards into the darkness, thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night.
Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed; but in the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.
I'm pretty sure this is a Tolkien reference.
Just doing a quick google search:
Legolas already lay motionless, his fair hands folded upon his breast, his eyes unclosed, blending living night and deep dream, as is the way of elves... Gimli was still deep in slumber, but Legolas was standing, gazing northwards into the darkness, thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night.Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed; but in the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.
Figures, everything dnd has it's origins in either tolkien or vance.
You used google...bah, amateur researcher :P
At least I admitted that it was a quick google search q:
You used google...bah, amateur researcher :PAt least I admitted that it was a quick google search q:
Bah, no page numbers or date of publication? What kind of reference is that;p
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So many people have responded to my post I won’t be able to answer all of you, thank you fro taking the time to post your thoughts.
James thank you for letting me know that Gollaron elves do indeed sleep. And thank you for the Tolkein link. Bruno Kristensen, thank you for providing the text. .
Sean, Thank you for reminding me where the Reverie comes form, the 2nd edition complete book of elves.
MyNameisJack, thank you for the information about the history of the elves sleep immunity.
Uriel 393, thanks I had forgotten elves were immune to ghoul paralysis. Thanks for the reference to that old dungeon magazine.
Kharis 2,000 I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read your post. It is so much fun I think I'll use it in my home games.
Thank you all for your posts. I have enjoyed reading them.
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I'm pretty sure this is a Tolkien reference.
Just doing a quick google search:
Legolas already lay motionless, his fair hands folded upon his breast, his eyes unclosed, blending living night and deep dream, as is the way of elves... Gimli was still deep in slumber, but Legolas was standing, gazing northwards into the darkness, thoughtful and silent as a young tree in a windless night.Only Legolas still stepped as lightly as ever, his feet hardly seeming to press the grass, leaving no footprints as he passed; but in the waybread of the Elves he found all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.
That's hot.
Slightly in keeping with the topic, I had always wondered with great bemusement why minotaurs were specifically immune to the maze spell. I mean, they were just bull-headed (literally) giants that mashed you to a pulp, right? Just another bruiser but with horns, right? Pulled from the Chronicles of Narnia, right? Why indeed would they have special immunity to a high-level spell? Seriously, if you were capable of casting maze and the DM were still tossing minotaurs at you for a challenge, you might be inclined to think he were profoundly lacking in creativity.
And then someone informed me of Greek mythology, where THE minotaur actually lives in a maze. It all made sense after that.
I think Gygax and Arneson were well steeped in Tolkien, Vance, AND classical mythology. They were very well-read men. Would that we all could be so educated.
