Conditions

Friday, June 15, 2018

Conditions were a significant part of Pathfinder First Edition, giving a set package of rules to effects like being blinded or fatigued. You might be wondering what kind of condition our conditions are in!

For the playtest, we've expanded conditions to cover a little more ground in two different directions. In one direction, now any long-lasting effect can impose a condition on a character. These conditions might be defined by a specific spell or ability, and often include a specific type of bonus or penalty called a conditional bonus or conditional penalty. This broadens our definitions so that more rules can now speak to conditions as ongoing effects. In the other direction, we've expanded on the conditions from First Edition to create a solid set of basic conditions for the playtest. Some of these conditions cover common benefits, allowing us to clarify how multiple effects combine. For example, the accelerated condition increases your speed by a certain value, and the hampered condition decreases your speed by a certain value. You use only the highest accelerated value you have—it's not cumulative. So if one effect made you accelerated 5 and another made you accelerated 10, your speed would increase by 10 feet, not 15. Many other conditions are quite similar to those you're familiar with, such as blinded or paralyzed (plus some rules tweaks, of course).

Some of our other conditions speak directly to the new action system for the game. The two big ones here are quick and slowed, which increase and decrease your number of actions. When you're quick, you gain one extra action per turn that you can use in one or more ways, according to the effect that made you quick! For instance, a 20th-level monk with Enduring Quickness is permanently quick, and can use the extra action to Stride, to Leap, or as part of a High Jump or Long Jump. The haste spell makes its target quick, and lets them use the extra action to Stride or Strike. So, if our 20th-level monk benefited from haste, he would add Strike to his list of options for the extra action from the quick condition as long as the haste spell was in effect. Conversely, slowed removes actions and prevents the creature from readying actions. This, like accelerated above, is an example of a condition that comes with a condition value to indicate how severe the condition is. So, a creature that becomes slowed 1 loses 1 action per turn, a slowed 2 creature loses 2, and so on. These aren't cumulative, so if your barbarian gets slowed 2 by one creature and slowed 1 by another, she loses only 2 actions.

Let's look at some other conditions that have condition values! The frightened condition has a higher value the more scared you are, and this value is also the conditional penalty you take to your checks and saving throws. So if you're frightened 2, you take a –2 penalty to checks and saves. There's some good news, though, because fear tends to pass after the initial shock. Frightened's condition value decreases by 1 at the end of each of your turns, until it reaches 0 and goes away. This condition covers all types of fear, so there's no more shaken or panicked. Frightened doesn't automatically make you run away, but some effects give you the fleeing condition as well, potentially for as long as you remain frightened! The sick condition is similar to frightened in that it gives you a penalty to the same rolls, but it's more severe for two reasons. First off, you're too sick to drink anything—including potions! Moreover, it doesn't go away on its own. Instead, you have to spend an action retching in an attempt to recover, which lets you attempt a new save to end the sickness.

Some conditions reflect the relationship between one character and another—for instance, when you're concealed or flat-footed. In the office, we call these relative conditions (as opposed to absolute conditions, like stunned or deafened, that don't involve others). The two examples I gave are pretty straightforward. The flat-footed condition gives a –2 circumstance penalty to AC. Some things make you flat-footed to everyone, but usually you're flat-footed to a creature that's flanking you or that otherwise has the drop on you. With the new critical rules, that 2 points of AC can make a big difference. Plus, rogues can sneak attack flat-footed targets! The concealed condition works much like concealment used to—an attacker has to succeed at a DC 5 flat check to hit you. In the playtest, flat checks have replaced miss chances and other things that might fail or succeed regardless of skill. Attempting a flat check is like any other d20 roll against a DC, except that no modifiers alter your result, so you need to roll a 5 or higher on the die or you just miss.

Some effects that used to deal ability damage now impose new conditions instead. Enfeebled imposes a conditional penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Strength-based checks equal to the enfeebled condition's value. Sluggish is similar, but for Dexterity-based values: AC, attack rolls, Dexterity-based checks, and Reflex saves. The stupefied condition covers mental effects, imposing a conditional penalty on spell DCs as well as on Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks. It also requires you to attempt a special roll each time you cast a spell or else your spell is disrupted (meaning you lose the spell!). Because the penalty from stupefied also applies to this roll, the worse the stupefied condition's value, the harder it gets to cast spells!

Finally, let's look at one of the conditions used frequently by the barbarian, as shown in Monday's blog. When you're fatigued, you're hampered 5 (the opposite of accelerated, so your speed is decreased), and you take a –1 conditional penalty to your AC and saving throws. Furthermore, your fatigue means everything takes more effort to do, so when you're fatigued, each action you use on your turn worsens this conditional penalty by 1 until the start of your next turn. So if you use all three actions on your turn when you're fatigued, your defenses are at a –4 penalty! In the barbarian's case, the fatigue from a rage goes away pretty quickly, but if you get fatigued from another source, it typically takes a night's rest to recover.

Are you looking forward to playing with these conditions? What do you think about the change to flat-footed? What conditions do you dread the most?

Logan Bonner
Designer

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Since movespeed increases don't stack anymore, do movespeed slows still stack?

Edit: doesn't seem likely.

How about different conditions that apply opposite effects, do they automatically negate each other? Or do they merely supress each other for the duration of the shortest one.


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Someone on another playtest thread suggested that the 'entangled' condition might stack, and that water 'entangles' you if you don't have a swim speed. So if you're in water, in a net, you're entangled 2, whatever that means.

Is entangled going to work that way?


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You guys could really make a killing off of condition tokens that you can flip or move to show how high or low the conditional modifier is, since it would probably make a great reminder for players instead of erasing everything or having to remember if you had a -1 hamper or -2 hamper.

I like the direction that the conditions are going, since it helps to simplify where it can but not lose the complexity and depth that made Pathfinder 1st Edition a great game system, most notably with the frightened condition. Since ability damage was mentioned, would ability drain work the same way? Such as Ability Drain[1] versus Ability Drain[2]?

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Do Enfeebled and Sluggish both affect all attack rolls, or just those that key off of Strength and Dexterity, respectively? If you're using a Finesse weapon, for example, it doesn't make any sense that being temporarily weaker lowers your attack roll despite the fact that you're not using Strength for it, while actually being permanently weaker (as represented by a lower Strength score) wouldn't.

To put it a different way: someone with an 18 Dexterity, 10 Strength, and Enfeebled 2 should have the same attack bonus as someone with an 18 Dexterity and a 6 Strength if both are using a Finesse weapon. Will that be the case? The wording seems to imply otherwise.


I was expecting a small clarification if you always get a minimum of 1 Action no matter how slowed you are. Or can you get 0 Actions if you have Slow 3 on your a character with only the 3 Default Actions?


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That fatigue round is pretty rough for a barbarian, at least on a second glance considering this blog. I wonder what sort of things a rage actually does now that covers this hindrance?

Sovereign Court

Nice, you can track these on dice per round. Pretty straight forward cant wait to take them for a spin in August.


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Okay, I'm calling it now: getting reliable access to the "Quick" condition is going to be a staple of high-level play.


Cool mechanics, simplified system, good improvement overall but specially the change of ability damage for conditions, although I have preferred to see a different condition for each ability score.

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Kaemy wrote:
I was expecting a small clarification if you always get a minimum of 1 Action no matter how slowed you are. Or can you get 0 Actions if you have Slow 3 on your a character with only the 3 Default Actions?

That sounds like the new version of "stunned", which they didn't mention as its own condition.


willuwontu wrote:

Since movespeed increases don't stack anymore, do movespeed slows still stack?

Edit: doesn't seem likely.

How about different conditions that apply opposite effects, do they automatically negate each other? Or do they merely supress each other for the duration of the shortest one.

blog wrote:
These aren't cumulative, so if your barbarian gets slowed 2 by one creature and slowed 1 by another, she loses only 2 actions.

I would imagine that if you have a positive condition and a negative condition both apply.

So Slow 1 and Quick 2 equals Quick 1.

It seems the most likely conclusion from what I've seen.


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This looks good. Like Willuwontu, I am intrigued in how these conditions will stack.

The ones that are simple adds/substracts seem easy enough. If I'm Accelerated 10, Hampered 5, I imagine I only get +5' of speed.

But what if I'm quickened 1 and slowed 2? Do I lose the extra, conditional action from quickened first, then a normal action (for a total of two non conditional Actions), or do I lose normal actions first (which would leave me with one normal Action and one I can only use to Stride or Strike)?

Other than that this looks good.

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Dasrak wrote:
Okay, I'm calling it now: getting reliable access to the "Quick" condition is going to be a staple of high-level play.

And then, three or four books from now, we'll see the first ability that gives access to the fabled "Quick 2" condition.


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Overall good. I like defining common positive effects as conditions, so they can just be referred to succinctly and save space.

Some conditions will and should undoubtedly stack / accumulate instead of simply using the best or worst one. I imagine these might get designated with an asterisk or the word cumulative, to make them easy to note?

Calling monk for Monday's blog. :3


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I love 95% of this, and I think the new conditions will be really good for the game.

At the PaizoCon delve, I wondered why flanking now reduced the flanked victim's AC, rather than giving the flankers +2 atk, and I guess that makes sense now, since flat-footed is a condition. This is a very slight criticism, but it sort of feels easier to me to remember to give an attack bonus to the flankers instead of adjust the vicim's AC, but, who knows, we'll see.

I think I'm not a fan of flat checks being a d20 instead of %dice. 1) I like using different dice whenever possible; 2) it makes it harder for an attacker to roll miss chance, for instance, at the same time as an attack roll, unless there's two different colors of d20 that have been previously, verbally differentiated.

Again, that's a pretty small criticism for what seems like a lot of really strong helpful changes.

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Quote:


20th-level monk with Enduring Quickness is permanently quick, and can use the extra action to Stride, to Leap, or as part of a High Jump or Long Jump

What's the difference between a leap action and a High Jump or Long Jump?

Quote:


First off, you're too sick to drink anything—including potions!

I'm down for that affect for sickened, but not sure that makes sense when applied to a potion of remove sickness/nausea. Peptol Bismol works great when I'm sick/nauseous in real life.

So there's enfeebled for Str, Sluggish for Dex, and stupefied for Int, Wis, and Cha. Is there a condition for "penalty to Con"? What about for Int, Wis, or Cha only, rather than all combined? Fascinated for Wis check penalties perhaps?


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JRutterbush wrote:

Do Enfeebled and Sluggish both affect all attack rolls, or just those that key off of Strength and Dexterity, respectively? If you're using a Finesse weapon, for example, it doesn't make any sense that being temporarily weaker lowers your attack roll despite the fact that you're not using Strength for it, while actually being permanently weaker (as represented by a lower Strength score) wouldn't.

To put it a different way: someone with an 18 Dexterity, 10 Strength, and Enfeebled 2 should have the same attack bonus as someone with an 18 Dexterity and a 6 Strength if both are using a Finesse weapon. Will that be the case? The wording seems to imply otherwise.

Sluggish specifies dexterity based attack rolls. I would be shocked if Enfeebled didn't specify strength based attack rolls.


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Dasrak wrote:
Okay, I'm calling it now: getting reliable access to the "Quick" condition is going to be a staple of high-level play.

I think it's still going to be a strong condition, but less ubiquitous than it was before. This is (for haste, for example) simply due to the fact that you still take the iterative penalty, and when you go down to -10 your odds of hitting usually aren't great enough for that to be a required thing.

It really depends on what additional actions are allowed by some of these. This third one, for example:

- For instance, a 20th-level monk with Enduring Quickness is permanently quick, and can use the extra action to Stride, to Leap, or as part of a High Jump or Long Jump.

This suggests that a High Jump or Long Jump can be augmented in some form aside from a standard Leap, and I'm thinking that's likely a Monk prerequisite feat similar to what it had before.


dragonhunterq wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Since movespeed increases don't stack anymore, do movespeed slows still stack?

Edit: doesn't seem likely.

How about different conditions that apply opposite effects, do they automatically negate each other? Or do they merely supress each other for the duration of the shortest one.

blog wrote:
These aren't cumulative, so if your barbarian gets slowed 2 by one creature and slowed 1 by another, she loses only 2 actions.

I would imagine that if you have a positive condition and a negative condition both apply.

So Slow 1 and Quick 2 equals Quick 1.

It seems the most likely conclusion from what I've seen.

The concept is sound, but the example is flawed. It's pretty clear as described in the blog that while Slow has levels, you're either Quick or you're not, there's no levels of being Quick.


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Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?


JoelF847 wrote:


Quote:


First off, you're too sick to drink anything—including potions!
I'm down for that affect for sickened, but not sure that makes sense when applied to a potion of remove sickness/nausea. Peptol Bismol works great when I'm sick/nauseous in real life.

Many of the traditional "get better" potions have gone away. None of them are "spells in a can" anymore, they have unique effects not tied to spells.


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Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?

Probably not, definitely something to mention during playtest


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TheFinish wrote:

This looks good. Like Willuwontu, I am intrigued in how these conditions will stack.

The ones that are simple adds/substracts seem easy enough. If I'm Accelerated 10, Hampered 5, I imagine I only get +5' of speed.

But what if I'm quickened 1 and slowed 2? Do I lose the extra, conditional action from quickened first, then a normal action (for a total of two non conditional Actions), or do I lose normal actions first (which would leave me with one normal Action and one I can only use to Stride or Strike)?

Other than that this looks good.

If I were a betting man, and assuming that quickened and slowed interact with each-other, I would assume that your quickened actions would be removed first before your base actions. Since we don't know if slowed would have a description where it discusses what actions it prioritizes, it would make sense to how haste and slow worked in Pathfinder 1st Edition, that being that they cancelled each-other out.

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What encourages me the most is one of the things I find irritates me the most in PF1. I mean I have a character in an AP with a 10 Wisdom and a class with a poor Will Save. At level 8 I have a +2 I think. And I end up getting targeted by will save spells and abilities quite often. One night I ended up spending the entirety of 3 combats fleeing because I kept failing Fear saves.

What this sounds like is that with Frightened and Sickened there won't be anymore "Oh, sorry, you are nauseated or panicked, so you basically don't get to participate."

I like that, alot. Still affects you, but doesn't take you completely out of the game for several hours essentially.

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edduardco wrote:
Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?
Probably not, definitely something to mention during playtest

I dunno. Casting 2 9th level spells in one turn seems pretty potent to me.


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Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?

Hugely so for spells, and bigly for the "two actions gets you three actions worth of effects" class feats.

It's unclear how often these "quick, but with special options" abilities are going to exist, actual variation and confusion may be minimal. Having to remember that a 20th level monk can make some new fringe uses of an extra action doesn't seem like much of a burden. If you demand a uniform solution, the one you're likely to get is removal of those extra, fun options.


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JRutterbush wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Okay, I'm calling it now: getting reliable access to the "Quick" condition is going to be a staple of high-level play.
And then, three or four books from now, we'll see the first ability that gives access to the fabled "Quick 2" condition.

That is 100% going to be a thing eventually, although it might be a monster ability first.

I wonder if they also have a new condition that allows extra reactions? The fighter blog mentioned they get an extra reaction each turn for AoO, didn't it? Seems like a natural alternate condition alongside Quick and Slowed.

Edit: I also wonder how two different types of quick interact? Do you get all of the potential actions for that extra actions, or do you have to pick between various subsets?

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Xenocrat wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:


Quote:


First off, you're too sick to drink anything—including potions!
I'm down for that affect for sickened, but not sure that makes sense when applied to a potion of remove sickness/nausea. Peptol Bismol works great when I'm sick/nauseous in real life.
Many of the traditional "get better" potions have gone away. None of them are "spells in a can" anymore, they have unique effects not tied to spells.

They've gone away as potions perhaps, but are now alchemical elixirs.


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The info about Barbarian's fatigue was really interesting, they don't become useless in between rages, which is good, but they potentially open themselves to attacks. This open up some strategy for barbarian players on whether or not taking all of their actions while fatigued, each -1 to AC increases the enemy's chance to crit by 5% up to a total of 20% counting the -1 they start with that round making it the smart move to maybe take only one or two actions while fatigued


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Somewhat interesting.


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At first I was going to agree that giving an AC penalty was more problematic than a bonus to-hit for flanking... but then I realized something. You can't just give someone a blanket +2 to hit because they might decide to attack someone other than their flanked target. For instance, a Summoned Monster might not attack the flanked target and might instead go after someone next to them or perform some action other than combat attacks. So it's not actually more work. It's just different than what we're used to. :)


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Biztak wrote:
The info about Barbarian's fatigue was really interesting, they don't become useless in between rages, which is good, but they potentially open themselves to attacks. This open up some strategy for barbarian players on whether or not taking all of their actions while fatigued, each -1 to AC increases the enemy's chance to crit by 5% up to a total of 20% counting the -1 they start with that round making it the smart move to maybe take only one or two actions while fatigued

Might also allow for hp tanking mechanic. Enemies might be more inclined to attack the durable barbarian if he leaves himself open during his fatigue.


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Xenocrat wrote:
JoelF847 wrote:


Quote:


First off, you're too sick to drink anything—including potions!
I'm down for that affect for sickened, but not sure that makes sense when applied to a potion of remove sickness/nausea. Peptol Bismol works great when I'm sick/nauseous in real life.
Many of the traditional "get better" potions have gone away. None of them are "spells in a can" anymore, they have unique effects not tied to spells.

Also, consider this: you might be able to quaff Pepto Bismol but not when you're in the middle of gagging and trying not to throw up. It doesn't matter HOW good it is at calming your stomach, if you can't get it INTO your stomach because you're too busy heaving.


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Biztak is worth mentioning knowing that losing 4 AC, while it always increases the chances of being hit, sometimes it won't affect Crit at all depending on your AC and the enemy Hit Chance. If they need to roll a 14 to Hit you (something normal), lowering it to 10 still means they only crit you on a Natural 20.

Not a fan of the Monk's pseudo-Quickness. Either give it Quick 1 (Strike included), or make it non-related to Quick. The way it's right now looks like it doesn't really stack, so that Lv20 Monk is less affected by the Haste Spell than anyone else (only winning the ability to use the extra action it already had to Strike, but was probably going to use at least one to move anyway, or we are probably talking about a -15 Attack unless he uses 2x 2-Action Attacks).


Yeesh, I'm suddenly very worried about the Barbarian... It sounds like on the fatigued round you're basically going to be dead weight.

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But wasn't the sickened condition also used for pain-related effects? How would that stop you from drinking?


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Tangent101 wrote:
At first I was going to agree that giving an AC penalty was more problematic than a bonus to-hit for flanking... but then I realized something. You can't just give someone a blanket +2 to hit because they might decide to attack someone other than their flanked target. For instance, a Summoned Monster might not attack the flanked target and might instead go after someone next to them or perform some action other than combat attacks. So it's not actually more work. It's just different than what we're used to. :)

Flanking was only +2 to hit versus the flanked target and nobody else in PF1, and we didn't have problems with it then.

Mechanically, +2 to hit and -2 to AC both work out the same with the new 4 degrees of success except in some edge cases. But "I have +2 to hit this dude" is a bit easier to remember than "This dude has -2 AC versus my attacks".

I mean, in the games I've played it I never saw anybody confused about their flanking bonus, but I have had to pull out the rulebook more than once to show a GM that a prone enemy is at -4 AC versus an attacker in melee, the attacker doesn't get +4 to hit.

It's not a deal breaker, it'll just take some getting used to.


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Cyouni wrote:
This is (for haste, for example) simply due to the fact that you still take the iterative penalty, and when you go down to -10 your odds of hitting usually aren't great enough for that to be a required thing.

This presumes you're using all (or most) of your actions just to make basic strikes. If you're doing that then yes, this a big step down from PF1 haste which gave a free attack at your full attack bonus without affecting your other attacks. Of course, PF2 has different rules and characters and their builds will adjust accordingly.

For instance, what if your attack routine involves using a 1-action special ability that isn't an attack followed up with a 2-action special attack. Now the free iterative added by quick is only at -5, or you could use the extra action to move without interfering with your main attack routine. This is especially true for gish characters, who can spend 3 actions on casting and then still have the quick attack action at their full attack bonus.

Cuttlefist wrote:
Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?

This is how Haste worked in 3rd edition (before the 3.5 update) and it was completely broken. The current version of Haste that Pathfinder inherited from 3.5 is actually a massive nerf from its original version.


Kaemy wrote:

Biztak is worth mentioning knowing that losing 4 AC, while it always increases the chances of being hit, sometimes it won't affect Crit at all depending on your AC and the enemy Hit Chance. If they need to roll a 14 to Hit you (something normal), lowering it to 10 still means they only crit you on a Natural 20.

Not a fan of the Monk's pseudo-Quickness. Either give it Quick 1 (Strike included), or make it non-related to Quick. The way it's right now looks like it doesn't really stack, so that Lv20 Monk is less affected by the Haste Spell than anyone else (only winning the ability to use the extra action it already had to Strike, but was probably going to use at least one to move anyway, or we are probably talking about a -15 Attack unless he uses 2x 2-Action Attacks).

Attack penalties bottom out at -10. If you use a Quick action to strike, your attacks are at 0/-5/-10/-10 for a full four attacks.

Monks probably have some flurry thing that already gives them extra attacks, or lots of damage (relative to unarmed) at the cost of 2-3 actions.


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Cyrad wrote:
But wasn't the sickened condition also used for pain-related effects? How would that stop you from drinking?

Intermittent screaming.


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JoelF847 wrote:
Quote:


20th-level monk with Enduring Quickness is permanently quick, and can use the extra action to Stride, to Leap, or as part of a High Jump or Long Jump

What's the difference between a leap action and a High Jump or Long Jump?

I would think a high or long jump has a run up and a leap is from standing.


Paul Watson wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?
Probably not, definitely something to mention during playtest
I dunno. Casting 2 9th level spells in one turn seems pretty potent to me.

Considering that it will require a caster at least level 17 and spells per day is capped at 3, I don't see any issue in that.


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edduardco wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?
Probably not, definitely something to mention during playtest
I dunno. Casting 2 9th level spells in one turn seems pretty potent to me.
Considering that it will require a caster at least level 17 and spells per day is capped at 3, I don't see any issue in that.

5, and that's just counting the options we know about, and not including preparing 9th level spells in 10th level slots.

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I like them. They sound quite workable.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeesh, I'm suddenly very worried about the Barbarian... It sounds like on the fatigued round you're basically going to be dead weight.

Actually, per the rules above, being Fatigued doesn't hurt your offense at all (well, no more than just not being in Rage), only your defenses, so some Barbarians may just go for broke and not care. A more cautious Barbarian is still likely to take one attack, just because it's only a -1, and it's at full bonus.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?
Probably not, definitely something to mention during playtest
I dunno. Casting 2 9th level spells in one turn seems pretty potent to me.
Considering that it will require a caster at least level 17 and spells per day is capped at 3, I don't see any issue in that.
5, and that's just counting the options we know about, and not including preparing 9th level spells in 10th level slots.

From where do you get 5? Only Wizards has 4. And for what I have seen in other threads there will not be 10 level slots, the so called 10th level spells are just feats usable one per day.


Since we got a glimpse of some conditions have simple 'Frightened 1, frightened 2, etc..', I've been a huge fan of representing them this way, reducing the confusion of different names for similar/related effects, and allowing for minimizing or enlarging the effects (for homebrew, mostly) without having think of new names or specific rules.
As has been mentioned by others, I'm surprised/disappointed that all the mental scores are lumped under one condition.
And I'm mildly concerned about the potential for numerous details/exceptions based on a condition's source that could cause game confusion or unneeded complexity, but I'll have to wait to see the beta for that for how comprehensible it all is.


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edduardco wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
edduardco wrote:


Considering that it will require a caster at least level 17 and spells per day is capped at 3, I don't see any issue in that.
5, and that's just counting the options we know about, and not including preparing 9th level spells in 10th level slots.
From where do you get 5? Only Wizards has 4. And for what I have seen in other threads there will not be 10 level slots, the so called 10th level spells are just feats usable one per day.

Wizards get 5, including their arcane focus. Cleric's effectively get even more, although that more is just a bunch of heals.

I have not seen the same regarding spell slots. I've seen that the spells were feat locked, but haven't seen the same regarding the slots themselves. I recall the opposite in fact, but I may simply be misremembering or misconstrued that post. And to be honest I wouldn't even know where to start looking for it.

Edit: fixed the quote

Edit edit: rereading the cleric blog, it looks like I was wrong about everyone just getting 10th level slots regardless if they get spells for them. I think 10th level slots might still be a thing, but I'll concede I misunderstand that part.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tallow wrote:

What encourages me the most is one of the things I find irritates me the most in PF1. I mean I have a character in an AP with a 10 Wisdom and a class with a poor Will Save. At level 8 I have a +2 I think. And I end up getting targeted by will save spells and abilities quite often. One night I ended up spending the entirety of 3 combats fleeing because I kept failing Fear saves.

What this sounds like is that with Frightened and Sickened there won't be anymore "Oh, sorry, you are nauseated or panicked, so you basically don't get to participate."

I like that, alot. Still affects you, but doesn't take you completely out of the game for several hours essentially.

^This. One time I didn't even have a bad Will save; it was tied for the best in the party, but every time we faced a fear effect, I couldn't roll higher than a 5 on the d20. My PC never even saw the BBEG because the fear effect hit when the door was opened, and she spent the whole combat running away and then coming back after the fear wore off.

I actually ended up retiring that character and bringing in a new PC at the end of the module because I was so disgusted with her.


Wow, fatigue is a sucky condition to be stuck with. I'm surprised to see it hurting casters just as much!

At least that will make it rare enough that enemies won't be able to limit a Barbarian's effective usefulness to three rounds of combat by preventing rage refresh with fatigue.


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edduardco wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
edduardco wrote:
Cuttlefist wrote:
Not a big fan of “quickened” giving you different types of actions depending on the source. Really unintuitive and messy, and basically means that haste and that monk ability don’t actually give you the same condition, but it has the same name anyway. Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?
Probably not, definitely something to mention during playtest
I dunno. Casting 2 9th level spells in one turn seems pretty potent to me.
Considering that it will require a caster at least level 17 and spells per day is capped at 3, I don't see any issue in that.

WE ENTIRELY DISAGREE, GOOD SIR

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