Christopher#2411504
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Nonlethal is a lot more impactful in SF2 then it was in PF2. Constructs - in the form of Robots - are just that much more common. It is a unavoidable side effect, given the setting.
Weapons that have Nonlethal and can't turn it off (like Shock Truncheon and Neural Lash can) are at a distinct disadvantage.
I realize now that working the Nonlethal penalty into the Dice Size/Trait calculation would be hard, as you used several PF2 Weapons as baseline for the balancing.
So, why not just treat it like Exposed?
In the sense that:
1. those weapons get a extra Upgrade Slot
2. there is a cheap level 0 Upgrade that allows us to turn off Nonlethal. Maybe on a toggle, like you can toggle Environmental Protection.
That would actually give us the same choice as Exposed.
Either:
- use that slot to just turn off the penalty
- embrace the penalty and use the Upgrade space for more power the rest of the time
| Dubious Scholar |
I've always found immunity to nonlethal odd in function to begin with.
Like, I'm punching a skeleton for 1d4+4 B, but it doesn't matter that I have +4 strength if my fist is technically nonlethal? It won't break the bones? That doesn't make any sense at all.
It seems like the intent, in a lot of cases, is to say "you can't knock this creature out via nonlethal damage", but because of how it's written it just means "nonlethal effects don't damage this at all".
Generally speaking, there should probably be a rule somewhere that says creatures immune to nonlethal damage treat it as lethal damage instead unless stated otherwise.
Although I suppose in the case of the Arc Emitter at least, it's not like there's an actual penalty for shooting it lethally since -2 to hit doesn't affect the DC. (Soldier's Primary Target aside, anyways)
Edit: And apparently misremembered undead using it. Still, it's always felt odd as a whole, because taking the -2 to hit to... what? You're already swinging the weapon as hard as you can, but suddenly it'll dent something it couldn't before?
An overkill mod or something would be nice, but I just kind of dislike the rule as a whole to begin with. Nonlethal feels like a drawback more than a benefit too often, since there's rarely a practical difference between the two, you can generally just ask the GM to apply dying rules anyways to let you stabilize after the fight instead of fussing with nonlethal attacks, etc. Heck, the fact that only the last hit to a creature matters at all is odd. (Sure, you lopped their arms off with a sword, but then you bonked their last 2 HP with your first so they're not bleeding out!)
| Squiggit |
Constructs have immunity to non-lethal damage, but many constructs also have a weakness to electricity. I think it would be fun if the weakness overruled the immunity, and also on a crit turned the non-lethal into normal damage.
I kind of like this. It is a little goofy that an enemy weak to electricity is arbitrarily immune to certain electrical weapons. There's no real verismilitude to it, an electric shock designed to incapacitate rather than kill a person is still going to not be great for electronic machinery.
Though more broadly I think immunity to nonlethal doesn't make a lot of sense in general, as Dubious Scholar says.
In Starfinder especially the trait becomes really problematic, insofar as that it almost doesn't do anything at all or imposes a semi-permanent -2 to attacks in construct/undead/whatever heavy campaigns... which sort of makes the trait impossible to budget.
Like the Pulsecaster is essentially identical to the laser pistol except it has a shorter range and the nonlethal trait, so it's not even like the weapon is getting some meaningful advantage for its penalty.
| Finoan |
Like, I'm punching a skeleton for 1d4+4 B, but it doesn't matter that I have +4 strength if my fist is technically nonlethal? It won't break the bones? That doesn't make any sense at all.
Side note: Undead aren't blanket immune to Nonlethal damage. Not even Incorporeal creatures. So you can punch a Skeleton Guard or even a Muse Phantom and deal damage with the Nonlethal attack.
Generally speaking, there should probably be a rule somewhere that says creatures immune to nonlethal damage treat it as lethal damage instead unless stated otherwise.
So... what exactly would immunity to nonlethal damage do?
I'm confused. The creature is immune to nonlethal damage, which means it ignores and removes the Nonlethal trait entirely and just takes damage as though the attack was not Nonlethal...?
Still, it's always felt odd as a whole, because taking the -2 to hit to... what? You're already swinging the weapon as hard as you can, but suddenly it'll dent something it couldn't before?
That is a narrative mismatch. You can fix that with not describing a standard Strike as 'swinging the weapon as hard as you can' in the first place. Describing it that way has problems with other things anyway such as Shattering Impact or Hero's Edge.
I will say that it is harder to justify for ranged weapons like the Pulsecaster pistol. But I would still rather have the mechanical ability to take the penalty and remove the Nonlethal from the attack, than not be able to do that because of narrative reasons.
Christopher#2411504
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Undead being immune to nonlethal was DnD 3E. Not sure if PF1. Type based immunities were all the rage. You couldn't even Demoralize or Sneak attack any undead.
But they have been reducing those blanket immunities more and more. Currently, only Constructs remain as Nonlethal immune.
While it would be nice if they removed it too, two systems were desiged with that assumption. I doubt they will remove it before the next Remaster or 3E.
| Dracomicron |
SF1 undead having mind affecting immunity is a much worse problem. Not only did it make sense (mind-affecting SHOULD affect sentient undead because they have, well, minds), but it cripples mystic damage output via mind thrust and removes the potential to trick undead with magic...making them boring "roll for initiative" enemies, only.
Christopher#2411504
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SF1 undead having mind affecting immunity is a much worse problem. Not only did it make sense (mind-affecting SHOULD affect sentient undead because they have, well, minds), but it cripples mystic damage output via mind thrust and removes the potential to trick undead with magic...making them boring "roll for initiative" enemies, only.
PF2 and thus SF2 got rid of that issue.
Undead are fully affected by mental effects, unless they are also Mindless. They can be hit by Deception, Demoralize, Suggestion and Sneak Attack.
Zoken44
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So maybe an item called an "Overcharger" which counter acts internal limiters that allow the item to be non-lethal. it can be activated with a free action, but after each hit you must pass a DC 5 flat check. on a failure the equipment gains the glitching 1 status (Glitching 2 on a crit fail) until you use an action to turn off the Overcharger.
Christopher#2411504
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So maybe an item called an "Overcharger" which counter acts internal limiters that allow the item to be non-lethal. it can be activated with a free action, but after each hit you must pass a DC 5 flat check. on a failure the equipment gains the glitching 1 status (Glitching 2 on a crit fail) until you use an action to turn off the Overcharger.
Are you talking about something that can turn off all negative traits? Like a technological version of Thought?
I was just looking for something that turns off the penalty of Nonlethal, when it becomes a penalty.
| Wizard Level 1 |
For historical context, in the system PF2/SF2 is based off of (D&D 3.0), Lethal damage and nonlethal damage used to come off of 'different ends' of HP: nonlethal created a threshold = to max HP -nonlethal damage. If lethal damage met that threshold they would pass out. You could continue to do normal damage (or even nonlethal damage) and kill them. You could even do enough non lethal damage that it effectively became lethal.
Now, back to today's game. That entire subsystem of how nonlethal damage worked is gone now, and all it means now is that the final blow doesn't kill an enemy. So, honestly, we could just fully remove 'Nonlethal damage' from the game. It serves no purpose that would wouldn't be able to get from something easier and more consistently applied.
According to the rules, a fist is nonlethal, but I absolutely could kill someone with my bare hands, or destroy a robot with them, anyone could, and certainly someone that's fighting eldritch horrors and demons on a regular basis could as well. Taking a -2 to make the attacks lethal just breaks my suspension of disbelief. If hitting someone with a fist is nonlethal, why do people die in accidents in fist fights and stuff all the time?
Lastly, why would a robot be immune to nonlethal anyway? You can shake up a machine and jostle it's parts loose without doing any actual damage to the individual components.
For all those reasons, and more, we don't lose anything by getting rid of "nonlethal damage" We've already gotten rid of all the subsystems around it so lets take the band aid off and move on.
How it could work: The non lethal trait could simply indicate that the attacker can choose not to kill an enemy with the final blow, or that the trait grants a free action called something like "Show Mercy" with the trigger of "your last hit reduced the enemy to 0 hit points" and the effect "you decide to show them mercy and knock them out instead of killing them". Or a player using a weapon without the nonlethal trait can knock enemies out on the final blow with a successful dc11 flat check, while weapons with the nonlethal trait can kill an enemy instead of knowing them out on the final blow with a DC 11 flat check. Either of these or something else as elegant would do.
| moosher12 |
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I always viewed the -2 penalty as: "Putting the extra effort in to hit a critical spot or just hit harder."
Like for a fist, a punch is a punch, but a -2 lethal punch is throwing extra momentum in, or trying to hit a very sensitive spot rather than a more broad spot.
Conversely, you can be more careful with a lethal weapon to do a nonlethal attack by taking the same penalty. The penalty is in place because it simply is a bit more difficult to cut someone with a sword in a way that won't kill them.
Nonlethal just inverts the typical lethal rule, which is normal for lethal, -2 for Nonlethal, while Nonlethal is normal for Nonlethal, but -2 for lethal.
Christopher#2411504
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According to the rules, a fist is nonlethal, but I absolutely could kill someone with my bare hands, or destroy a robot with them, anyone could, and certainly someone that's fighting eldritch horrors and demons on a regular basis could as well. Taking a -2 to make the attacks lethal just breaks my suspension of disbelief. If hitting someone with a fist is nonlethal, why do people die in accidents in fist fights and stuff all the time?
Fist is a bad example.
There are plenty of Class and Archetype Features in PF2 that increase Fist to D6 and make the Nonlethal optional. Those the "skilled fist Fighters that can kill robots without issues."And everyone can kill Robots by taking the -2.
And accidental deaths are not resolved in the system. Of course you can whip someone to death. If you have them knocked out or restrained, you can kill people with a pillow. But that is way outside normal combat resolution.
Christopher#2411504
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One interesting thing is one of the main non lethal weapons is also electricity based. I am curious how that immunity interacts when they are weak to the damage type being done.
Immunity first. Weakness can't increase 0 damage.
"Apply immunities first, then weaknesses, and resistances third."
https://2e.aonsrd.com/rules/357-step-3-apply-immunities-weaknesses-and-resi stances