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So, first off, this is my first post on this forum. If I'm breaking any rules, sorry.
Second off, this isn't meant to devolve into a Paizo/Starfinder sucks tirade. I very much like both of those. (Except the store.)
Third off, this isn't a discussion on the merits of far-range sniping in TTRPGs. I've seen it done well in other systems, but I am not clamoring for Paizo to include it.
With that out of the way - how did the Operative's Sniper specialisation make it through playtesting? The Operative, due to Aim, is already a very action-hungry class. So, naturally, a weapon which needs to be reloaded after every shot is a problem for them, especially since they lack any reload compression abilities.
This leads to a very strict and inflexible action rotation of Aim => Strike => Reload at lower levels. They get explicitly and directly outdone by Sniper Gunslingers at these levels, but surely as soon as the Reactive Strike feats like Hair Trigger and Kill Steal - oh.
They can't use those. Without giving up Aim, there simply aren't enough actions to reload. That's an enormous loss of power.
Well, at least at level 9, they get a very powerful Advanced Exploit that allows them to reload and then shoot agai- oh
You can pretty much only properly use this once every two misses.
Aim => Strike (Miss) => Reload (Free) => Strike
Aim => Reload => Strike (Miss) => Reload (Free)
Quicklock alleviates some of the issues - at level 16 - but an unquickened Sniper Operative simply feels bad.
Is that really intended? Is all of that really intended? Just to balance the extra damage Snipers occasionally get? Operative seems like a genuinely terrible choice to use Snipers with, which would be an acceptable, if odd, decision, but the inclusion of an entire Specialisation dedicated to the Sniper weapon will assure that plenty of people fall for this trap choice.
I suppose I should have participated in the Playtest and complained about this much earlier, since it's unlikely that Paizo will completely errata everything that would be needed to fix this.
Personally, I might simply include a Sniper with fewer damage traits and a larger magazine in my homegames.
The Operative Subclasses just don't have design any space left.
The class already has Fighter Proficiency for all Ranged Weapons (so better then the Fighter and Gunslinger combined) and Aim (Ranged Sneak Attack).
We can kinda ignore the extra Skill feats, not that impactfull.That doesn't leave much design space for Subclass Features.
That's not the problem though, the problem is that you'd probably be genuinely better off grabbing a Plasma Caster and the Sniper Specialisation solely for the mediocre free feat rather than actually using a Sniper with the Specialisation made for it.
Operative is uniquely bad at Snipers, the whole class seemingly made to clash with Magazine 1 weapons.
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They have fighter weapon proficiency and sniper weapons all have kickback often with backstabber as well and frequently either deadly or fatal. These are weapons with very high damage potential and operative is specifically able to get those crits fairly often.
The design intent and trade-offs feel fairly obvious to me. Sniper operatives are clearly intended to make fewer attacks but have the ones they do hit much harder. Their typical turn is very action heavy, yes, but reload is not the only point of action compression for the class. There is nothing stopping a sniper from taking mobile aim, for instance.
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They have fighter weapon proficiency and sniper weapons all have kickback often with backstabber as well and frequently either deadly or fatal. These are weapons with very high damage potential and operative is specifically able to get those crits fairly often.
The design intent and trade-offs feel fairly obvious to me. Sniper operatives are clearly intended to make fewer attacks but have the ones they do hit much harder. Their typical turn is very action heavy, yes, but reload is not the only point of action compression for the class. There is nothing stopping a sniper from taking mobile aim, for instance.
Yeah, I agree here - I just think some things in the PF2E/SF2E ecosystem are going to have design trade-offs, and this is one of them. I sometimes feel like that gets lost in certain discussions - and it's certainly okay for a Sniper Operative to only really get one Strike (with the potential for lots of damage) on their turn.
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This is a team-oriented game, remember.
So here is a question for you...
If Sniper Operative got a free action reload from level 1 and/or got sniper rifles with a larger Magazine, that means that the tactic of sneaking around and spotting the enemies and sniping them from long range with multiple shots in quick succession (remember that one character doesn't normally do enough damage in one or two hits to drop an enemy) works pretty well.
For that matter, even as printed, when using this tactic the round going like Aim => Strike => Reload seems completely viable for a round or two while the enemies have to close the distance under heavy sniper fire.
So... What is the rest of the party doing at that point?
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the problem is that you'd probably be genuinely better off grabbing a Plasma Caster and the Sniper Specialisation solely for the mediocre free feat rather than actually using a Sniper with the Specialisation made for it.
Yes. The Sniper Specialization does not appear to me to be intended to use Sniper weapons exclusively. Only one of the three example scenarios given in the Specialization's write-up is a scenario that would benefit from a Sniper weapon.
Whether you're peeking around a corner, perching on a distant rooftop, or aiming from the back line of a squad formation,
And of those three, the two that don't involve being on a rooftop far away from the rest of the party are the ones most likely to actually come up in play.
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They have fighter weapon proficiency and sniper weapons all have kickback often with backstabber as well and frequently either deadly or fatal. These are weapons with very high damage potential and operative is specifically able to get those crits fairly often.
The design intent and trade-offs feel fairly obvious to me. Sniper operatives are clearly intended to make fewer attacks but have the ones they do hit much harder. Their typical turn is very action heavy, yes, but reload is not the only point of action compression for the class. There is nothing stopping a sniper from taking mobile aim, for instance.
I understand the design intent, it just doesn't work. Sniper Operative exchanges flexibility for damage, except it actually does less damage. It loses second attacks, it loses reaction attacks.
This is a team-oriented game, remember.
So here is a question for you...
If Sniper Operative got a free action reload from level 1 and/or got sniper rifles with a larger Magazine, that means that the tactic of sneaking around and spotting the enemies and sniping them from long range with multiple shots in quick succession (remember that one character doesn't normally do enough damage in one or two hits to drop an enemy)...
For that matter, even as printed, when using this tactic the round going like Aim => Strike => Reload seems completely viable for a round or two while the enemies have to close the distance under heavy sniper fire.
So... What is the rest of the party doing at that point?
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the problem is that you'd probably be genuinely better off grabbing a Plasma Caster and the Sniper Specialisation solely for the mediocre free feat rather than actually using a Sniper with the Specialisation made for it.Yes. The Sniper Specialization does not appear to me to be intended to use Sniper weapons exclusively. Only one of the three example scenarios given in the Specialization's write-up is a scenario that would benefit from a Sniper weapon.
Whether you're peeking around a corner, perching on a distant rooftop, or aiming from the back line of a squad formation,
Also, if you take Hampering Shot, you can set-up off-guard for your buddies, on top of a high damaging shot.
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I understand the design intent, it just doesn't work. Sniper Operative exchanges flexibility for damage, except it actually does less damage. It loses second attacks, it loses reaction attacks.They have fighter weapon proficiency and sniper weapons all have kickback often with backstabber as well and frequently either deadly or fatal. These are weapons with very high damage potential and operative is specifically able to get those crits fairly often.
The design intent and trade-offs feel fairly obvious to me. Sniper operatives are clearly intended to make fewer attacks but have the ones they do hit much harder. Their typical turn is very action heavy, yes, but reload is not the only point of action compression for the class. There is nothing stopping a sniper from taking mobile aim, for instance.
No, it does work, maybe not to everyone's specific tastes for play, but it does work. Like, it's actually okay (IMO) to not get a second Strike, and you can use your reaction attacks, since you've already Reloaded at the end of your turn, and you just then Reload at the start of your next. It seems even more clear to me especially since you ignore Unwieldy.
If you pick Sniper, you are choosing a deliberate play style and you can plan around it.
Plus, the Kill Steal reaction has the Aim built-in to it.
No, it does work - those are the trade-offs (not getting a second Strike), and you can use your reaction attacks, since you've already Reloaded at the end of your turn, and you just then Reload at the start of your next.Plus, the Kill Steal reaction has the Aim built-in to it.
You can not use your reaction attacks more than once per fight. Here's how it goes:
First turn: Aim, Strike, Reload
Reaction: Kill Steal / Hair Trigger
Second turn: Reload, Aim, Strike
Reaction: Buzzer sound
Kill Steal having Aim built into it is nice extra damage, but meaningless for action compression, since it runs out by the end of that turn.
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The sniper operative reminds me of PF2's magus, tbh: ridiculous damage potential choked out by brutal action taxes.
I think the subclass still works, but you kind of have to accept that you need to choose between aiming and reloading on some turns (like when Hair Trigger pops and you start your turn with an empty mag). That said, I'm considering not tracking ammo in my home games at all because it's frankly ridiculous for a neolithic weapon to have better action economy than a futuristic one.
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I haven't seen it mathed out, and I'd like to see someone do some detailed round by round math before making statements like it does less damage. I'm not the math guy, but it seems like sniper crits are massive and there are a surprising number of damage bonuses (kickback, sniper critical specialization, backstabber, fatal/deadly). Doesn't seem straightforward to me, especially with how few directly comparable weapons there are.
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No, it does work - those are the trade-offs (not getting a second Strike), and you can use your reaction attacks, since you've already Reloaded at the end of your turn, and you just then Reload at the start of your next.Plus, the Kill Steal reaction has the Aim built-in to it.
You can not use your reaction attacks more than once per fight. Here's how it goes:
First turn: Aim, Strike, Reload
Reaction: Kill Steal / Hair Trigger
Second turn: Reload, Aim, Strike
Reaction: Buzzer soundKill Steal having Aim built into it is nice extra damage, but meaningless for action compression, since it runs out by the end of that turn.
You sometimes might have turns where you are Reloading and not Striking, but moving into better positioning, or you decide for one round that you aren't going to use your Reactions, and instead Strike. Or, yeah, just don't Aim sometimes, and Reactions aren't necessarily going to trigger every round.
I guess it just doesn't really bother me that much.
This is a team-oriented game, remember.
So here is a question for you...
If Sniper Operative got a free action reload from level 1 and/or got sniper rifles with a larger Magazine, that means that the tactic of sneaking around and spotting the enemies and sniping them from long range with multiple shots in quick succession (remember that one character doesn't normally do enough damage in one or two hits to drop an enemy) works pretty well.
For that matter, even as printed, when using this tactic the round going like Aim => Strike => Reload seems completely viable for a round or two while the enemies have to close the distance under heavy sniper fire.
So... What is the rest of the party doing at that point?
Starfinder 2e's Snipers have a range increment of 100-120 feet. Long range sniping is simply not a concern with those numbers. I mean, hell, a PF2e Ranger can pull off penalty-free 800' shots at levl 4 in a game with less ranged attacks and you don't see any posts bemoaning that because it simply does not come up often.
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And of those three, the two that don't involve being on a rooftop far away from the rest of the party are the ones most likely to actually come up in play.
So, in your mind, the fantasy of a Sniper Operative is to not actually use a Sniper most of the time?
You sometimes might have turns where you are Reloading and not Striking, but moving into better positioning, or you decide for one round that you aren't going to use your Reactions, and instead Strike. Or, yeah, just don't Aim sometimes, and Reactions aren't necessarily going to trigger every round.
I guess it just doesn't really bother me that much.
Just giving up the reaction doesn't work, you have to give up either Striking or Aiming for a turn (and you do need to maintain a mark for Hair Trigger, mind).
In the end, if it doesn't bother you that's fine, I'm not coming after you or your table. It bothers me, though.
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Starfinder 2e's Snipers have a range increment of 100-120 feet. Long range sniping is simply not a concern with those numbers. I mean, hell, a PF2e Ranger can pull off penalty-free 800' shots at levl 4 in a game with less ranged attacks and you don't see any posts bemoaning that because it simply does not come up often.This is a team-oriented game, remember.
So... What is the rest of the party doing at that point?
You have nicely dodged the question. But you haven't answered it.
What is the rest of the party doing in these long-range sniping combat scenarios?
What is the Envoy doing? Or the Witchwarper? Or the Solarian?
How much fun are the other players at your table having while your Sniper Operative is killing everything from long range?
And of those three, the two that don't involve being on a rooftop far away from the rest of the party are the ones most likely to actually come up in play.So, in your mind, the fantasy of a Sniper Operative is to not actually use a Sniper most of the time?
I don't think that Starfinder is the game to play if that exclusively long-range Sniper character is the fantasy that you want.
It isn't a bad character fantasy to have. But this may not be the best game to do it with.
The way to fix that, would be giving Snipers multiple shots.
The problem is that then the "you ignore Unwieldy" becomes a lot more powerfull. Probably too powerfull for what little power budget is left. Or at least it was when they wrote the release version.
Someone suggested "you ignore Unwieldy just for Reactions", which might be a good compromise.I am hoping erratas for these subclasses were alread made in the months since printing.
As I said, I think the simplest way to 'fix' this would be to make a seperate Sniper, not buff the existing ones (I feel they are fine for other classes). I don't think Paizo is likely to significantly errata the Specialisation itself.
Call it the Operative's Sniper. 1d10P, Tech, Volley, Unwieldy, Deadly d6 Mag: 5, Range: 100', Hands: 2, Bulk: 2
You have nicely dodged the question. But you haven't answered it.What is the rest of the party doing in these long-range sniping combat scenarios?
How much fun are the other players at your table having while your Sniper Operative is killing everything from long range?
I didn't dodge your question, you may have simply missed the answer. There is no long range sniping scenario. The range increments on snipers is simply too low for this to be a real concern.
I don't think that Starfinder is the game to play if that exclusively long-range Sniper character is the fantasy that you want.It isn't a bad character fantasy to have. But this may not be the best game to do it with.
See my first post. I understand this, and it was not part of my complaints.
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I understand the design intent, it just doesn't work. Sniper Operative exchanges flexibility for damage, except it actually does less damage. It loses second attacks, it loses reaction attacks.They have fighter weapon proficiency and sniper weapons all have kickback often with backstabber as well and frequently either deadly or fatal. These are weapons with very high damage potential and operative is specifically able to get those crits fairly often.
The design intent and trade-offs feel fairly obvious to me. Sniper operatives are clearly intended to make fewer attacks but have the ones they do hit much harder. Their typical turn is very action heavy, yes, but reload is not the only point of action compression for the class. There is nothing stopping a sniper from taking mobile aim, for instance.
None of what you have said refutes what I have said.
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The mechanical problems with the sniper operative were largely pointed out in the playtest and ignored.
TBH a surprising number of big issues with some classes/subclasses just glossed over between playtest and release. Maybe it was crunch or something.
None of what you have said refutes what I have said.
You are confusing 'doesn't work' for 'I don't like the trade off'
You didn't exactly refute me either. You said 'the tradeoff just works' I said 'No it doesn't.'
So I suppose we were both rather poor in our contributions. I'll expand my point: The Operative being uniquely unsynergistic with Snipers, yet having a subclass for them is bad design. They are uniquely unsynergistic because their additional actions and reactions clash with the magazine size.
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I'll note there are two mid-to-high level abilities that party members can use to help a sniper reload: Envoy has the Hustle feat to grant a quickened interact once per 10 minutes, and the Rhythm focus 6 spell Remix can do the same but be sustained to provide the extra reload every round.
I wouldn't be surprised by a gear solution to this (and projectile magazine limitations in general) in Tech Core.
There's also the cantrip that reloads a weapon with magic bullets for 1 action. (They only last for a round, but...)I'll note there are two mid-to-high level abilities that party members can use to help a sniper reload: Envoy has the Hustle feat to grant a quickened interact once per 10 minutes, and the Rhythm focus 6 spell Remix can do the same but be sustained to provide the extra reload every round.
I wouldn't be surprised by a gear solution to this (and projectile magazine limitations in general) in Tech Core.
Oh that's good! I didn't realize you could touch an adjacent ally's weapon, but I don't see any reason not.
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Sniper's Advanced Exploit is actually an improvement from the playtest. But that's because it largely did nothing in the playtest since it just didn't increase MAP. Which as pointed out by the OP, rarely comes up because of action economy.
THE BAD: Operatives had their action compression kneecapped considerably, and Snipers REALLY feel it more than everyone else. Most other Operatives won't even need to reload before a single combat is over, but as THE reloading Operative, that free stride REALLY enabled your play style. I talked a lot about how the smart thing to do is rarely sit still and keep aiming and firing- and that's good, because that doesn't even sound fun. But it IS what you're pushed to do more now, because you just straight up don't have that mobility anymore!
So I think it's kind of a little bit of what everyone has been saying so far. While the class isn't as inflexible and beyond help as OP might make it sound, I would absolutely agree that it was heavily impacted by the changes to the Operative in ways that aren't immediately obvious.
I also have some practical experience with a sniper operative in the playtest and this is basically how I feel about it too.
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I didn't dodge your question, you may have simply missed the answer. There is no long range sniping scenario. The range increments on snipers is simply too low for this to be a real concern.
See my first post. I understand this, and it was not part of my complaints.
I don't think that Starfinder is the game to play if that exclusively long-range Sniper character is the fantasy that you want.It isn't a bad character fantasy to have. But this may not be the best game to do it with.
Then no, I don't understand your complaints. It feels like we are talking past each other.
You aren't liking the Sniper Specialization of Operative because they don't synergize well with the Sniper weapons and their 1-round Magazine.
That isn't a problem with Sniper Specialization. That is because Sniper weapons and the concept of long-range sniping of enemies isn't much of a thing in Starfinder. It is a team-oriented game and the rest of the team will be bored if very many encounters rely heavily on long or extreme range sniping. Starfinder doesn't support the character concept of a sniper weapon user very well.
We appear to both agree on this. So what is the problem with Sniper Operative then?
So what part of Sniper Specialization other than 'sniper weapons are bad' do you have complaints about?
Use other tools in the kit. Use your stealth skill. Fire your weapons from a medium range well back from everyone else using your Sniper's Scope on a standard rifle with a larger capacity.
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I'm just now building my first operative sniper in response to the comments about sniping in SF2e.
Am I doing the math right here?
A Commercial Assassin Rifle in the first range increment does 1d10 + 1 Kickback + 1d4 precision damage from aim, for a total of 3 to 15 points of damage.
On a crit hit vs a target that is off guard, a Commercial Assassin Rifle in the first range increment does (1d12 + 1 Kickback + 1 precision damage from Backstabber + 1d4 precision damage from aim) X2 +1d12 Fatal damage, for a total of 9 to 48 points of damage.
If this is right, then it looks like the sniper operative is all about setting up the perfect shot. To get the off-guard condition on the target will likely take teamwork. Off-guard only gives you +2 damage on a crit, but also lowers the target's AC by -2, which helps getting the crit.
Since real snipers normally work in teams of 2, sometimes 3. I'm thinking of making a sniper support character. I don't think a spotter makes sense in SF2e, but someone who can debuff the target, and or help get or keep them in line of sight, and help get them the off-guard condition. I suppose a spotter could be someone who buffs the sniper, and or uses the Aid another action. So maybe the best way to play a sniper is in a team of 3, the sniper, someone focused on debuffing the target, and someone focused on buffing the sniper. The buffer could also use spells to change the sniper's damage type or help boost the damage.
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I'm just now building my first operative sniper in response to the comments about sniping in SF2e.
Am I doing the math right here?
A Commercial Assassin Rifle in the first range increment does 1d10 + 1 Kickback + 1d4 precision damage from aim, for a total of 3 to 15 points of damage.
On a crit hit vs a target that is off guard, a Commercial Assassin Rifle in the first range increment does (1d12 + 1 Kickback + 1 precision damage from Backstabber + 1d4 precision damage from aim) X2 +1d12 Fatal damage, for a total of 9 to 48 points of damage.
If this is right, then it looks like the sniper operative is all about setting up the perfect shot. To get the off-guard condition on the target will likely take teamwork. Off-guard only gives you +2 damage on a crit, but also lowers the target's AC by -2, which helps getting the crit.
Since real snipers normally work in teams of 2, sometimes 3. I'm thinking of making a sniper support character. I don't think a spotter makes sense in SF2e, but someone who can debuff the target, and or help get or keep them in line of sight, and help get them the off-guard condition. I suppose a spotter could be someone who buffs the sniper, and or uses the Aid another action. So maybe the best way to play a sniper is in a team of 3, the sniper, someone focused on debuffing the target, and someone focused on buffing the sniper. The buffer could also use spells to change the sniper's damage type or help boost the damage.
I have an animal instinct barbarian shirren with Eager Assistant. I also have a Sniper Specialization operative on my team. I am planning on doing some combination of bite, grab, and aid. I'm really wondering what's the optimal combo.
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Since real snipers normally work in teams of 2, sometimes 3. I'm thinking of making a sniper support character. I don't think a spotter makes sense in SF2e, but someone who can debuff the target, and or help get or keep them in line of sight, and help get them the off-guard condition. I suppose a spotter could be someone who buffs the sniper, and or uses the Aid another action. So maybe the best way to play a sniper is in a team of 3, the sniper, someone focused on debuffing the target, and someone focused on buffing the sniper. The buffer could also use spells to change the sniper's damage type or help boost the damage.
An arcane caster (so analyst or anomaly WW) can take both Stumble and Recharge Weapon cantrips. (Stumble is also primal, Recharge Weapon is also occult.)
Stumble is two actions and has a 100' range, makes targets off-guard if they fail a reflex save. Obviously this would benefit everyone in the party, not just the sniper.
Recharge Weapon is 1a and can reload an adjacent sniper rifle if the operative ended his turn with it empty or fired off a reaction shot before the WW's turn.
This plus a standard envoy doing Get 'Em and their own attack, or a Rhythm mystic buffing via their sustained focus spell, would help swing accuracy +3 if they fail the reflex against Stumble.
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You aren't liking the Sniper Specialization of Operative because they don't synergize well with the Sniper weapons and their 1-round Magazine.
That isn't a problem with Sniper Specialization. That is because Sniper weapons and the concept of long-range sniping of enemies isn't much of a thing in Starfinder. It is a team-oriented game and the rest of the team will be bored if very many encounters rely heavily on long or extreme range sniping. Starfinder doesn't support the character concept of a sniper weapon user very well.
We appear to both agree on this. So what is the problem with Sniper Operative then?
So what part of Sniper Specialization other than 'sniper weapons are bad' do you have complaints about?
Use other tools in the kit. Use your stealth skill. Fire your weapons from a medium range well back from everyone else using your Sniper's Scope on a standard rifle with a larger capacity.
You are the one who brought long range sniping up as a concept and hasn't let it go. I attempted to exclude it from the conversation from the start because it is irrelevant in a system where it largely doesn't exist.
My complaint is not, and has never been 'you can't pick off someone from 2000' away. It is 'in the intended group play environment, with the intended Specialisation, this weapon group functions poorly'. This is a problem because the Specialisation pushes you to use it in that environment - that's why it gets rid of Unwieldy and Volley.
There are ways to make an Operative work with a Sniper weapon that do not conclude in the dreaded sniping minigame scenario. Good heavens, just give Operatives a DMR equivalent or something. I posted a mock-up of one further up.
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@ Xenocrat, and WatersLethe. I like both of your ideas.
In PF2e you often hear that teamwork and tactics matter more, yet in organized play, I rarely see them used, largely since Players and characters change often. But the concept of a sniper team, I think, helps make it clearer what everyone's role in the to work together is. And like Xenocrat said, the buffs and debuffs might also help the rest of the party, too.
I tend to try to build the support character part of a team. It's easier for a support character to find someone to support than it is for a sniper to find someone to directly support them. Of course, the best way to work with some during character creation. I'm curious to see what an optimised sniper team can do.
I think part of a sniper team's tactics should be making sure the sniper can save their hero points for a perfect shot with all the buffs and defuffs active.
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I don't nessercarily think a subclass that has a very simple playstyle is a problem. There does need to be simpler options in the system that you can point someone towards.
I am still eager to see Sniper in play, because I do think it is verging too simple, similar to how I feel about reload weapons in pathfinder when you don't get the action compression. I certainly hope not, because I like the fantasy.
WRT to "why take away unwiedly" I suspect that's more future proofing than anything, as I'm sure we'll get a 2+ ammo sniper eventually, as well as not restricting some of those reaction feats.
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Just realized you can Ready recharge weapon spell. Bring in a quickened weapon and three casters supporting your reloads to fire three aimed sniper shots per round, four at 20th with another ally.
Simple as that.
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I don't nessercarily think a subclass that has a very simple playstyle is a problem. There does need to be simpler options in the system that you can point someone towards.
I am still eager to see Sniper in play, because I do think it is verging too simple, similar to how I feel about reload weapons in pathfinder when you don't get the action compression. I certainly hope not, because I like the fantasy.
WRT to "why take away unwiedly" I suspect that's more future proofing than anything, as I'm sure we'll get a 2+ ammo sniper eventually, as well as not restricting some of those reaction feats.
In fact, looking at the archives of nethys page, we have the Reality Ripper from Collison's wake. If it weren't for the 40ft incriment, it'd be perfect for this.
Just realized you can Ready recharge weapon spell. Bring in a quickened weapon and three casters supporting your reloads to fire three aimed sniper shots per round, four at 20th with another ally.
Simple as that.
I mean, I know it's all fun theorycrafting, but, well, yeah. If you dedicate three characters to buffing the fourth said fourth character will work better. That's true of all builds. Well, nearly all, some are still a bit hard to support, but I digress.
I don't nessercarily think a subclass that has a very simple playstyle is a problem. There does need to be simpler options in the system that you can point someone towards.
I am still eager to see Sniper in play, because I do think it is verging too simple, similar to how I feel about reload weapons in pathfinder when you don't get the action compression. I certainly hope not, because I like the fantasy.
WRT to "why take away unwiedly" I suspect that's more future proofing than anything, as I'm sure we'll get a 2+ ammo sniper eventually, as well as not restricting some of those reaction feats.
While I find its inflexible action economy a bit boring, my complaint from the start was not simplicity, but effectiveness. I don't think it works well as is, in comparison to other classes (Sniper Gunslinger) or other Specialisations. Or, like, just this specialisation, using any other twohanded gun.
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Its a bit difficult to do the math as it is going to depend greatly on circumstances, but I think that some of the time the sniper just doesn't bother to aim. That fatal D12 is VERY attractive for the first shot, but it is kind of very nice to get your reaction in once the reaction triggers almost all of the time.
If the target has cover then you DEFINITELY aim. Removing the penalty to hit is far more important than the extra damage. But a lot of the time the reaction attack is going to be worth more than the Aim extra damage.
So, I think you do
Round 1 : Aim (probably moving too), fire, reload
Hair Trigger
Round 2 : Reload, shoot, reload
Hair Trigger
a lot. You also do the Aim/Shoot/Reload thing a lot too.
In sum, I think a Sniper is a fine specialization in general. You get a useful feat. If you have another character or two supporting you with recharge weapon then you do a boatload of damage. And all the other Specializations are fairly meh (well, Striker is literally game changing :-)) anyway so the opportunity cost of not picking one of them is pretty low.
Its a bit difficult to do the math as it is going to depend greatly on circumstances, but I think that some of the time the sniper just doesn't bother to aim. That fatal D12 is VERY attractive for the first shot, but it is kind of very nice to get your reaction in once the reaction triggers almost all of the time.
If the target has cover then you DEFINITELY aim. Removing the penalty to hit is far more important than the extra damage. But a lot of the time the reaction attack is going to be worth more than the Aim extra damage.
So, I think you do
Round 1 : Aim (probably moving too), fire, reload
Hair Trigger
Round 2 : Reload, shoot, reload
Hair Triggera lot. You also do the Aim/Shoot/Reload thing a lot too.
See, that's what bothers me. You either Aim, or you get a reaction attack. And then remember that the Operative gets a lot of neat Aim + Strike sharpshooting debuff actions, something the Sniper won't be able to participate in either. And that you will be affected a lot more harshly by anthing that disrupts your routine.
In sum, I think a Sniper is a fine specialization in general. You get a useful feat. If you have another character or two supporting you with recharge weapon then you do a boatload of damage.
Near every single build can gain a lot from dedicated support. So that's kind of a puff statement. And, frankly, no, I don't want to submit an Ally to dedicating two actions and a reaction just so they can Reload my weapon.
And all the other Specializations are fairly meh (well, Striker is literally game changing :-)) anyway so the opportunity cost of not picking one of them is pretty low.
The opportunity cost of playing Sniper also includes paying two attribute boosts into strength (or spending money, upgrade slots and early on actions on a bipod).
Look, if you think the Sniper is fine as is then, well, no need to change it. I stated at the start that I doubt Paizo would ever do that anyhow.
But at least we can all agree that nobody would lose out if a balanced Sniper with a larger magazine came out, right? People who prefer the 1-Mag Snipers can just keep using those.
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Hmm, one of the items released in the starfinder society scenarios might be what you're looking for, or at least a good stopgap.
Minor spoilers for one of the launch scenarios for Starfinder Society
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But at least we can all agree that nobody would lose out if a balanced Sniper with a larger magazine came out, right? People who prefer the 1-Mag Snipers can just keep using those.
It would depend a lot on what that "balanced" weapon looks like. I think we can all pretty much agree that with an Assassin Rifle with a magazine of, say, 10 just about all operatives would be snipers using an Assassin Rifle.
So, how much do you knock off that to make it "balanced"? Obviously, on the low end, it has to be better than the existing non sniper weapons.
So. balanced is somewhere between those 2 extremes. Not actually a huge amount of room there.
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One pain point I haven't seen brought up is also scaling. Snipers peak at level 1. Level 1 assassin rifle (assuming offguard) is 1d10+2 with fatal d12, making it one of the hardest hitting weapons in the entire game. You make a Vesk with a Doshko cry when you crit from farther away than most Paizo battlemaps even are, and frankly you're still pretty impressive even when you don't. This does a lot to kind of fulfill the sniper fantasy and deal with the reload issue.
But kickback never scales, and backstabber only gains one extra damage at +3 tracking, at a point at which monster hp is ten times higher.
I really don't understand why kickback and backstabber scale so much worse than other damage enhancing traits (like sweep or agile), it creates a really awkward power dynamic.
Then there's secondary factors like upgrades that provide flat damage and aim itself both scaling up with the number of attacks you can make per round.
The game is too built around improving damage through flat bonuses, which starts to make these low attacks-per-round builds increasingly awkward the longer a campaign goes.
There is scaling for kickback in pathfinder 2e, but the large bore modification isn't used a ton since getting +4 strength on a firearm user is a pretty big investment. Guns and Gear's modifications also aren't really compatible with SF2's upgrade system.
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Yeah that's true (though it also suffers from the same issue as backstabber of being a very small one time bump, I feel like both should be 1/die to keep up with the baseline). I'm also not entirely sure how we're supposed to great PF2 firearm modifications. You're right though I just completely forgot about that item.
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But at least we can all agree that nobody would lose out if a balanced Sniper with a larger magazine came out, right? People who prefer the 1-Mag Snipers can just keep using those.It would depend a lot on what that "balanced" weapon looks like. I think we can all pretty much agree that with an Assassin Rifle with a magazine of, say, 10 just about all operatives would be snipers using an Assassin Rifle.
So, how much do you knock off that to make it "balanced"? Obviously, on the low end, it has to be better than the existing non sniper weapons.
So. balanced is somewhere between those 2 extremes. Not actually a huge amount of room there.
I think there's design room there. Obviously you can't just increase the magazine size on existing rifles, that would be way overtuned.
So, how about we take a hint from, say, a simple weapon? The Laser Rifle.
Range: 100, 1d8F, Battery: 10, Expand 2, Tech
Well, first we change its weapon group. Laser to Sniper. Neutral change, easy enough. Then, since we really just want a basic weapon, we change its damage and magazine type. I will admit that I genuinely don't know how Starfinder values these, but it's probably a negative change? Since batteries can be upgraded, but magazines can not. Let's treat it as neutral.
Changing it to a martial weapon is the easiest step, we know how that is valued thanks to Deadly SImplicity. One die size up it is.
The next part is the complicated part. All snipers have Volley 30ft and Unwieldy. Those are negative traits. So they do give a trait bonus, right? Can't be too high, though, since Sniper Operative immediately deletes them. Maybe a Deadly d6? Keeps with the critical theme of snipers. Totally open to thoughts there, especially since I will likely offer a weapon like that to any Sniper player in any of the groups I run.
We'd be left with something like this:
Designated Operative Rifle
Range: 100, 1d10P, Deadly D6, Volley 30ft, Unwieldy, Tech, Magazine: 5, Expand: 1