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I'll preface with two statement, nay, three:
-English Is not my mother tongue, therefore i exscuse myself for any grammaticale mistakes.
-i'm currently playing a kineticist, as It's my favorite class.
-i've thoroughly "studied" the kineticist, i really think i know my stuff. i Hope to not sounds accondescending, in case i exscuse myself.
Now! The critique, written in a miscellanea of points:
-The kineticist suffers from a slight ivory tower design. The class works but It requires a serious building effort. A good amount of its feats are completely useless; they'd work very well as situational spells to swap out if needed, but as your ONLY thing (since you get a "new spell" every 2 levels) It's Absolute insufficient.
Let's take a Fire kineticist as an example: you'd think that you could Simply blast stuff with fireballs, but that's completely wrong! Not only your build requires you to be melee until level 10 (aka, basically your whole campaign most of the time) but It also requires to use a "death by a thousand cuts" strategy, where most of your damage comes from proccing weaknesses and from the Fire Oracle dedication everyone gets.
It suffers from the same design choice casters suffer from: 90% of your Power comes from building choices. But while a caster can easily change spells a kineticist can hardly do that.
-"The caster Blaster everyone wanted!" LoL no.
The kineticist has an incredible amount of TWO damage builds, and both require an indecent amount of cheesing (Fire with Oracle dedication and earth/air with triple boomerang juggling). While every other build focused mainly on being a weird tank/support.
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Maybe I'm the odd one out here, but I'm not grabbing Kineticist to play a blaster, I'm grabbing them to play someone with control over an element in a way that actually impacts the narrative. That works pretty well. My fire/metal Kineticist can run his restaurant with just ingredients, creating cookware from nothing, and when the local Mafia-types threatened him, he was able to threat far more retaliatory property destruction back than any other class because everything's at will, backed up by a bucket of hitpoints. My wood/air Kineticist trickster is able to fly around invisibly whispering to people from a mile away pretending to be their conscience, all while being able to provide healing, unlimited food, and ungodly amounts of protection. He's more fey-like than a fey Sorcerer would be.
"Kineticist is a poor choice of class for people focused on damage" is fair enough. That's especially true after the Remaster boosted Sorcerer's blasting damage.
Maybe I'm the odd one out here, but I'm not grabbing Kineticist to play a blaster, I'm grabbing them to play someone with control over an element in a way that actually impacts the narrative. That works pretty well. My fire/metal Kineticist can run his restaurant with just ingredients, creating cookware from nothing, and when the local Mafia-types threatened him, he was able to threat far more retaliatory property destruction back than any other class because everything's at will, backed up by a bucket of hitpoints. My wood/air Kineticist trickster is able to fly around invisibly whispering to people from a mile away pretending to be their conscience, all while being able to provide healing, unlimited food, and ungodly amounts of protection. He's more fey-like than a fey Sorcerer would be.
"Kineticist is a poor choice of class for people focused on damage" is fair enough. That's especially true after the Remaster boosted Sorcerer's blasting damage.
I really don't want to sound mean but... That's not entirely my point? Kineticist surely has a crap ton of very interesting interactions but this Is not the right game for this kind of stuff. Partly It Is but pathfinder 2e Is fundamentally a combat game, and in a discussion about design i really think that the matter of discussion should be combat (or at least out of combat challenges) related.
What i wanna Say Is that kineticist Is deceptively complicated, with a HUGE emphasis on deceptively.
Their capability to impact the narrative Is top notch. But everything else, especially for a new player, Is ROUGH. very very ROUGH
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Can't say I've had that experience. Class seems to work fine to me, both in damage output and fun utility powers that allow for interesting narrative interfacing.
I honestly can't agree with the OP's criticism.
The kineticist is by far one of the classes that has the most useful and powerful feats. However, like every class in PF2e, many of the feats are situational and not designed to be used all the time.
The problem you mentioned with the kineticist is kind of its design choice. Unlike the casters, it sacrifices a lot of the versatility of having several different resources prepared, for the ability to use the resources it has unlimitedly, in addition to having a very strong defensive chassis that competes with that of the martials.
The ivory tower problem is also common to all casters. In them, being even worse, you have to deal with a huge number of spells and make a selection of what will be good for you, in addition to dealing with many that are basically lore 99% of the time like Approximate, Illuminate or Prestidigitation that serve more to make the story more magical than they are actually mechanically practical most of the time. Everyone who plays a spellcaster knows that magic is basically a treasure hunt for spells that are useful to you most of the time, where eventually you can get some creative use of some more situational ones. The other classes also suffer from this with feats, but to a much lesser degree in my opinion, because they have far fewer options.
The example of the fire kineticist that you gave, for example. You don't have to fight in melee, you can fight in melee to benefit more. And the kineticist in terms of DPR at low levels, like level 1, even has a good range of attack options. An earth kineticist, for example, can combine Tremor with Elemental Blast to make a 10-ft burst 1d8 AoE reflex save that can hit a good number of enemies depending on positioning + 1d8 in an attack with Elemental Blast causing another 1d8 or 1d8+str if it's melee, while using Armored in Earth to maintain a high AC. At this level, the best thing a sorcerer can do on its turn is to use an Electric Arc (2d4) and Demoralize or use a Shortbow, if it has access to it via Ancestry or General Feats, to deal 1d6 with its third action. You don't even have the option of going melee, because probably the last thing a sorcerer will invest in is str and do all of this naked and with half the HP of the kineticist! Of its 3 spellslots, one will probably be used for Mystic Armor (if it has access to it) and the other 2 if it wants to focus on damage, casting Magic Missiles Force Barrage.
At low levels, I think the ones who are in a better situation among magic users are druids. Because they have good initial focus spells against individual targets and good armor so they don't have to worry about investing in dex, so they can invest in str without fear of running out of AC and can attack efficiently in melee.
All magic users in PF2e go through this same situation. At early levels, they have to survive with very few options and spell usages, relatively little DPR, especially when compared to damage-focused martials. Their situation only improves around level 5 when they gain access to 3rd rank spells and only becomes truly sustainable after level 9 when their TOP 3 ranks start to consist of a good range of powerful spells.
The kineticist at least operates in the middle ground, you don't have to hunt for spells in a list with hundreds of them, not even in the weapons and runes list to look for something you find useful, your only concern with resources is your actions in the round, your chassis is strong as a barbarian, and just like the casters you become almost a demi-god in the end-game.
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For all day, free and clear blasting, AOE, and utility casting, kineticist is fine damage wise. As others noted, the personal draw isn't damage: for me it's getting to saddle into a 4e caster design. Kineticist let's me play in that all day, full gas, martial design philosophy that the game seems to assume pacing wise (at least from my experience running and playing in APs). Vancian magic and spell slots were a concession for the design of this game engine, not a meaningful progression of the d20 fantasy genre ttrpg. You gotta view kineticist damage from the lense of someone who can keep swinging all day with the equivalent of 3-15ish signature spells; that's a lot of utility that HAS to be reflected in single target capability.
-The kineticist suffers from a slight ivory tower design. The class works but It requires a serious building effort. A good amount of its feats are completely useless; they'd work very well as situational spells to swap out if needed, but as your ONLY thing (since you get a "new spell" every 2 levels) It's Absolute insufficient.
Many of the general (available to all kineticists) feats exist to expand on the class utility, instead of focusing only on elemental and composite impulses. Granted, many of them are fairly specialized; however the kineticist seems to be designed to focus primarily on the element(s) chosen by the player for that particular kineticist. The general feats are there to help the character from being overspecialized.
Let's take a Fire kineticist as an example: you'd think that you could Simply blast stuff with fireballs, but that's completely wrong! Not only your build requires you to be melee until level 10 (aka, basically your whole campaign most of the time) but It also requires to use a "death by a thousand cuts" strategy, where most of your damage comes from proccing weaknesses and from the Fire Oracle dedication everyone gets.
No, a fire kineticist isn't required "to be in melee until level 10" with the choice of the Weapon Infusion level 1 general class feat. Versatile Blasts is another useful level 1 general class feat to expand on the types of damage a kineticist can deal (for targeting weaknesses or avoiding resistances) with their elemental blasts.
It suffers from the same design choice casters suffer from: 90% of your Power comes from building choices. But while a caster can easily change spells a kineticist can hardly do that.
See above. Versatile Blasts and Weapon Infusion exist to allow a kineticist to easily change the characteristics of their elemental blasts. It's more difficult to change impulses, but not much more restricted than changing a spell repertoire for a spontaneous caster.
-"The caster Blaster everyone wanted!" LoL no.
The kineticist has an incredible amount of TWO damage builds, and both require an indecent amount of cheesing (Fire with Oracle dedication and earth/air with triple boomerang juggling). While every other build focused mainly on being a weird tank/support.
The DPR emphasis is missing the point. The kineticist wasn't designed to compete with the highest DPR blaster casters; it is designed to provide a blaster that doesn't need to track spell slots and can expand into battlefield control, healing, utility, etc. if desired.
Preface: i have no idea on how to quote stuff, so i'll Just answer point by point without quoting, Sorry :[
1- many of the general feats available to all kineticists don't do that, they mainly boost what you're already doing. Then there's the pet which turns into a summon which Is really cool but also hard to pull off before level 10. Those general feats are there to round of the rough edges of the class, not really to keep them from being overspecialized, imo.
2- with due respect: no. Fire kineticist's damage Is kinda low without being in melee and hitting the weakness multiple times, being able to do something indefinetly doesn't really matter much if Said thing doesn't contribuite very much.
3- those two feats matter much more in the early levels, everyone who's played a kineticist knows that your blasts are mainly there to refresh your kinetic aura as their damage gets pretty insignificant as you level up. Overall your elemental blasts contribute less and less as you level up your character
...why are you required to be melee until level 10?
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...why are you required to be melee until level 10?
For the fire Kineticist the OP mentioned playing, probably because of the aura size, which necessitates staying very close to the target to debuff it with the fire vulnerability, until you get Aura Shaping later on (i.e. lvl 10). The 10 foot emanation you get until then is not strictly melee, but near enough that no enemy will have great problems getting to you.
...why are you required to be melee until level 10?
Thermal Nimbus at 4th and fire's aura junction at 5th are necessary to meet whatever damage threshold is being used as a requirement, and are a ten-foot emanation until Aura Shaping at 10th. It's also the range of Incendiary Aura, the focus spell of Flames Oracle (also 4th level with free archetype, otherwise sixth level), which "everyone" is getting. So, levels 4-10 are required to be melee.
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From where I'm standing, incendiary aura looks like bait. Using 2 actions to do nothing in the first turn of combat so your later actions apply a measly 2d4+(1d4/+2 heighten) persistent that doesn't stack with itself is literally worse than just hitting the same nearby enemies with a 1d8+(1d8/+1 heighten vs reflex) flying flame in a lot of circumstances. It keeps you from dealing AoE damage on the first turn of combat when it's most relevant; it triggers reactions, unlike impulses; it doesn't fit at all into your action economy. Nothing about this seems good unless the fight drags out absurdly long.
Damage now is worth more than damage later.
I agree. I already heard about this combination with Incendiary Aura but the actions and feat cost is pretty high and its heightening is terrible. So I just ignore it. Maybe worth if you are playing as free-archetype yet it will rapidly becomes weaker specially when the enemies starts to get resistances more frequently as the level progress and it doesn't work together with Aura Junction's Fire Weakness because it isn't an impulse.
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2- with due respect: no. Fire kineticist's damage Is kinda low without being in melee and hitting the weakness multiple times, being able to do something indefinetly doesn't really matter much if Said thing doesn't contribuite very much.
3- those two feats matter much more in the early levels, everyone who's played a kineticist knows that your blasts are mainly there to refresh your kinetic aura as their damage gets pretty insignificant as you level up. Overall your elemental blasts contribute less and less as you level up your character
I see...
It seems from these two comments that you are perhaps trying to play your fire kineticist at low levels using the tactics better suited for a higher level kineticist. Instead of using the tactics that by your own admission "matter much more in the early levels."
Also, please refrain from the "everyone... knows" argument. It's a fallacy, no matter how much you try to use it to bolster your opinion.
[Incendiary Aura]
You will not always have a "good shot" so spending those turns when you cannot hit foes to instead buff/prep for later damage is a very good thing to be able to do.
And considering that foes will close the gap to come to you, it's actually a very solid idea & ability due to how common that turn 1 prep is.
It's also easy to forget that fire Kin does a lot of damage via Weakness pops, so being able to do *any* amount of persistent fire damage means triggering that weakness twice as often. ( I think this one's wrong, iirc the weakness has some catch that it's impulse only)
It's also an AoE, and works with allies. And because it's got no save, it's much more archetype friendly (and does more dmg than you'd think as you should read guaranteed dmg like "auto-fail" results).
My SoT table has an Oracle (not Kin) using this spell, and being able to throw a splash bomb to hit many creatures at once for 2 fire splash to trigger the spell as an Alchemist was a real thing that was relevant.
... it may have been a thing that was forgotten and ended up w/ me lighting 1 foe and 2 allies on fire w/ the bomb, but after that accidental, it has been used tactically for our benefit.
I find the kineticist a lot more functional than the OP but I can sort of agree that there's a lot of room to build yourself into a corner and that the low level kineticist can feel sort of bad if you don't pick the right options. Not even so much in terms of raw power but in terms of limiting how you play. We have a geokineticist in one game and she just spends most of her time spamming EB because the only other combat option she has is Tremor and only sometimes does she get to line up a good one.
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I have played a few kineticist.
On the one hand they are not a top tier damage class nor do they have the power and versatility of a caster. They are somewhere in-between. Which seems like the power budget of a class that can do what they do an unlimited times per day with no downtime needed. No focus points. No striking weapons required. No times per day. No spell slots. An unlimited use resource with a variety of uses.
You really can't make them a top damage dealer or give them caster like versatility. You have to keep them in a certain range of power for the price of an unlimited use resource.
Kineticist seem about right to me for what they do given the resource cost.
They have single target, AoE, utility, and layered damage and effects. Lots of unique abilities like eventually getting immunity to crit and precision damage like that high level earth aura or multiple immunities to certain types of energy damage with their aura active.
Kineticist is able to obtain some abilities no other classes have access to. They limited their healing ability as unlimited healing would have been too powerful. But they pretty much have unlimited damage capacity including AOE damage capacity.
I feel you have to accept that you won't be the top at anything while being able to do a lot of different things. You'll have to live with it because the resource you use to power all your stuff is unlimited.
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...why are you required to be melee until level 10?For the fire Kineticist the OP mentioned playing, probably because of the aura size, which necessitates staying very close to the target to debuff it with the fire vulnerability, until you get Aura Shaping later on (i.e. lvl 10). The 10 foot emanation you get until then is not strictly melee, but near enough that no enemy will have great problems getting to you.
At low levels, my fire/earth kineticist was hitting people with thermal nimbus and the fire aura juncture by lava leaping at them. It's quite strong scaling, with built in movement plus an effective shield raise. You just use your one remaining action to rechannel and turn thermal nimbus back on.
Why throw fireballs when you can be the fireball?
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FWIW, I agree with Deriven that the OP seems to be exaggerating the downsides of kineticist (you will not match a blaster caster getting to unload, for sure) and ignoring the upsides (you can position much more freely, have better defenses and can tank, won't run out of resources, can target AC with less grief, have some unique utility via stances, and get free hands by default).
Kineticist does pay a price for not expending resources. However, it's adequately compensated for it. It is not the best at doing any one thing, but it is rare for a Kineticist to really struggle to find something it can do to contribute—especially if you're the party's consumable bag, and your free hands make that a good idea—and it is equally rare for a kineticist to hit the floor first.
snip
I don't think Incendiary Aura is inherently bad, but I do think it's pretty bad for the job a fire kineticist is intending to do. There is synergy with fire kineticist chilling in melee, and Thermal Nimbus procs it, sure. But I really don't think it's good from an optimization standpoint to toss multiple feats to oracle archetype on a class
-that doesn't want CHA (and does have Will as its worst save)
-that doesn't care about the main attractions of the oracle archetype, like Whispers of Weakness
-that has good feats to take to begin with
-that loses reflow elements options because of the choice
-that could really use additional options to spend their reaction, if they're going to archetype at all
Incendiary Aura also competes with furnace form, large aoes, wall of fire, fearsome familiar, etc. for your first turn action, and gains more competition as you level (as implied by this list).
Oracle for Incendiary Aura isn't some magus+psychic-level combination. This is adding some persistent damage to your first instance of fire damage only against enemies in your aura, after which it will only do anything against that enemy again if they recover from said persistent damage. It also, very notably, does not exclude your allies and cannot be made to do so. You have to hope thermal nimbus mitigates that, if it comes up. Speaking of that, it also really makes you want to have thermal nimbus—which I consider a situational choice over Kindle or Steam Knight (if you grabbed it). Locking you into Thermal Nimbus isn't great.
It is literally guaranteed damage if you're using thermal nimbus. However, guaranteed chip damage isn't the name of the game here, especially when it requires significant positioning concessions at higher levels. The ideal is moreso getting some spike damage onto one or more single enemies so they can be dropped quicker. And again, that persistent damage has to be compared to actions you could've taken instead (which will often be double or more the damage dice of the persistent damage vs a reflex save).
Wrt prebuffing and waiting: enemies that can be made to come to you are often in a position to get hit by larger or more effective blasts without hitting allies. If you waste that opportunity, you're also effectively losing damage.
A big problem with the whole "take the Oracle archetype for Incendiary Aura" idea is that not only is the Kineticist really feat hungry, but that +2 Charisma can be a pretty big ask for a kineticist.
A big problem with the whole "take the Oracle archetype for Incendiary Aura" idea is that not only is the Kineticist really feat hungry, but that +2 Charisma can be a pretty big ask for a kineticist.
Yeah. I'm playing a kineticist FA bard that's got their CHA pumped, and in exchange, I'm missing a good amount of flat melee blast damage and my will save ain't where I'd want it. The character technically functions, but I personally wouldn't recommend putting any of your marbles on CHA on an optimized kineticist.
It'd be a lot more trouble if I hadn't been allowed to take Skeptic's Defense, tbh; that feat has negated more than its fair share of nasty effects. Shockingly effective choice.
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I've had the good fortune of playing a dual class fire kineticist and flames Oracle for the combo in question. I haven't had the chance to pull it off yet. It is hard to do turn one.
Assuming you go late in initiative and there's enemies in your aura when you begin your turn, it would be good I imagine. Otherwise, it's a lot more applicable once you get aura shaping with thermal nimbus.
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Build toward the tactic you want rather than just cramming the highest damage you can find and then being frustrated.
Weapon Infusion gives you a max range increment of 100, which means your actual max range is 600, and if you're using fire that means you can burninate the countryside around the enemy even if you can't hit them.
Burning Jet helps you keep out of melee range.
Scorching Column keeps your enemies from closing.
Crawling Fire extends your range even further, starting at 30' and then you can make it move 40 with each sustain, plus you add an obstacle for your enemies.
Volcanic Escape helps get you out of melee.
Kindle Inner Flames lets you boost the allies you want in front of you, including archers.
Solar Detonation is a fancy fireball with 60 range.
Architect of Flame gives you yet another barrier starting up to 120 feet away.
Furnace Form gives you flight so you can stay out of reach.
Walk Through the Conflagration is a 120 foot spicy teleport.
All Shall End in Flames and Ignite the Sun have a range of 500 feet.
Most of the kit is absurdly range-focused!
It's true that you can do even more damage in close range, but that's the standard tradeoff for melee. You can attack at insane ranges, so your enemies can be dead long before they can reach your aura's range. The nice thing about a kineticist is you can build for multiple ranges and tactics. Some of the same tricks you use to keep a distance can also be used to force targets to stay close.
As for the rest, my earth/water kineticist can literally create jacuzzi hot tubs from thin air using Extended Kinesis (create stone, expand stone into tub, create water, heat water, convert some water into steam). Also great for boiling food and making tea.
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I've had the good fortune of playing a dual class fire kineticist and flames Oracle for the combo in question. I haven't had the chance to pull it off yet. It is hard to do turn one.
Assuming you go late in initiative and there's enemies in your aura when you begin your turn, it would be good I imagine. Otherwise, it's a lot more applicable once you get aura shaping with thermal nimbus.
I am playing a barbarian earth elemental/kineticist earth and fire. Boy, it is absolutely brutal. DMs should not allow it. It is sickening.
The defensive and buff earth powers are crazy powerful on a barbarian as is Con as main stat.
I also made a skeleton metal and fire kineticist. Just for the fun of the appearance. It's pretty effective and fun.
Kineticists don't do the best damage, but they can shine big in AOE fights with nearly every attack AOE. The single target fights are a little lacking, but you have to give somewhere. Unlimited flight is nice and ferrous body unlimited sustain too.
It's a very effective, well built class with lots of worthwhile feats and class features. One of the better designed classes.
But they definitely give up something in single target damage for constantly good AOE and versatile abilities.
But they definitely give up something in single target damage for constantly good AOE and versatile abilities.
Play a non-fire Kineticist and I think you'd get back on that. The Fire Kineticist is the only one with real damage output without having to resort to Dedications and weird combos.
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I've had the good fortune of playing a dual class fire kineticist and flames Oracle for the combo in question. I haven't had the chance to pull it off yet. It is hard to do turn one.
Assuming you go late in initiative and there's enemies in your aura when you begin your turn, it would be good I imagine. Otherwise, it's a lot more applicable once you get aura shaping with thermal nimbus.
I am playing a barbarian earth elemental/kineticist earth and fire. Boy, it is absolutely brutal. DMs should not allow it. It is sickening.
The defensive and buff earth powers are crazy powerful on a barbarian as is Con as main stat.
I also made a skeleton metal and fire kineticist. Just for the fun of the appearance. It's pretty effective and fun.
Kineticists don't do the best damage, but they can shine big in AOE fights with nearly every attack AOE. The single target fights are a little lacking, but you have to give somewhere. Unlimited flight is nice and ferrous body unlimited sustain too.
It's a very effective, well built class with lots of worthwhile feats and class features. One of the better designed classes.
But they definitely give up something in single target damage for constantly good AOE and versatile abilities.
Oh yeah it's good. My original concept was built for legacy Oracle and the convenient thing was I didn't need to take divine access for fire damage since that was covered by the kineticist half lol.
Flying flame is my favorite area effect in the game. A maneuverable line is such a cool way to balance dealing damage with avoiding friendly fire. It also happens to be the best tool to trigger incendiary aura before you get thermal nimbus if you go that route.
I hope to get to 14th level so I can pull off the eternal torch/walk through the conflagration combo. My only fear is that the new Oracle mechanics might overshadow the kineticist with just how much fuel it has.
Build toward the tactic you want rather than just cramming the highest damage you can find and then being frustrated.
Weapon Infusion gives you a max range increment of 100, which means your actual max range is 600, and if you're using fire that means you can burninate the countryside around the enemy even if you can't hit them.
Burning Jet helps you keep out of melee range.
Scorching Column keeps your enemies from closing.
Crawling Fire extends your range even further, starting at 30' and then you can make it move 40 with each sustain, plus you add an obstacle for your enemies.
Volcanic Escape helps get you out of melee.
Kindle Inner Flames lets you boost the allies you want in front of you, including archers.
Solar Detonation is a fancy fireball with 60 range.
Architect of Flame gives you yet another barrier starting up to 120 feet away.
Furnace Form gives you flight so you can stay out of reach.
Walk Through the Conflagration is a 120 foot spicy teleport.
All Shall End in Flames and Ignite the Sun have a range of 500 feet.
Most of the kit is absurdly range-focused!
It's true that you can do even more damage in close range, but that's the standard tradeoff for melee. You can attack at insane ranges, so your enemies can be dead long before they can reach your aura's range. The nice thing about a kineticist is you can build for multiple ranges and tactics. Some of the same tricks you use to keep a distance can also be used to force targets to stay close.
As for the rest, my earth/water kineticist can literally create jacuzzi hot tubs from thin air using Extended Kinesis (create stone, expand stone into tub, create water, heat water, convert some water into steam). Also great for boiling food and making tea.
All due respect, have you actually played a Fire kineticist? Cause every feat you've mentioned Is situational and has low damage. Sure you can hit stuff very far (three strides/Two from a fast creature) away but not for a good amount of damage.
I really don't think that scorching Column can zone anything with it's low damage, solar detonation has the incapacitation trait for some unknown reason, Kindle inner flame Is useful if you're, once again, in melee and can proc the weakness from your aura.
On an unrelated note, i want to Say Two things, One Is inherent to the discussion One Isn't.
1- kineticist It's not a weak class at all, It's pretty strong, my critique says that having half the class composed of barely usable stuff and the other half of Absolutely bonkers must pick doesn't make for good design.
2- are my standards too High? Cause when Someone says that flying flames has good damage i'm appalled. But they're surely not lying for the fun of it, so the problem Is either their or my expectations. Who's right In this case?
PS: my "High standards" for stuff might be like that because my First real experience with this system was abomination vault
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But they definitely give up something in single target damage for constantly good AOE and versatile abilities.Play a non-fire Kineticist and I think you'd get back on that. The Fire Kineticist is the only one with real damage output without having to resort to Dedications and weird combos.
Air and water seem the weakest damage.
Earth and metal in the next tier.
Fire is the best damage dealer.
Fire, earth, and metal usually get a initial decent damage AoE or multitarget attack, then a pure AOE attack at level 8 to 12. Usually with overflow.
Fire has the best stacking damage with the best damage auras.
Earth and metal are more balanced with offense and defense.
Water has healing and utility.
Air has mobility and utility.
So you have to mix and match to get the things you want to do. If you want a kineticist damage dealer, fire definitely the way to go.
You can build different types of kineticists to do different things.
Air and water seem the weakest damage.
Earth and metal in the next tier.
They are all in the same tier to me. Unless you stack Fire Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus/Steam Knight + Fire Impulses, or find a nasty combo through archetyping, you'll deal subpar damage with a Kineticist.
I've played Sky King's Tomb with a Metal and an Earth Kineticist. I've dealt their combined damage with my Witch as soon as we got to level 5.
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Air and water seem the weakest damage.
Earth and metal in the next tier.
They are all in the same tier to me. Unless you stack Fire Aura Junction and Thermal Nimbus/Steam Knight + Fire Impulses, or find a nasty combo through archetyping, you'll deal subpar damage with a Kineticist.
I've played Sky King's Tomb with a Metal and an Earth Kineticist. I've dealt their combined damage with my Witch as soon as we got to level 5.
I already posted you won't be a top tier damage dealer as a kineticist. You can't expect that with an unlimited resource.
People wanted a class that could blast a lot without spell slots. A sort of martial caster. The kineticist is what they got. Unlimited powers, but not as high a ceiling as other classes, but more endurance.
I already posted you won't be a top tier damage dealer as a kineticist. You can't expect that with an unlimited resource.
Lots of martials are top tier damage dealers.
I already posted you won't be a top tier damage dealer as a kineticist. You can't expect that with an unlimited resource.Lots of martials are top tier damage dealers.
Single target, not AOE.
And they don't have the abilities of a kineticist.
So not sure what you were expecting.
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Air and water seem the weakest damage....All kinetic elements have or gain the ability to blast that scales roughly 1d8+1d8/2 levels impulse, for 2 actions, with some sort of multiple targeting. That's kind of the kineticist 'benchmark' and every element hits it. All elements except fire thus top out at about 45-55 damage per 2a by L20. Fire is the exception, it goes higher both 'unbuffed' via All Shall End In Flames, and 'buffed' by combining impulse + Aura Junction + Thermal Nimbus. but fire requires a more dedicated build than the rest, because unlike the other elements, it's impulses scale at 1d6+1d6/2 levels unless you take the Aura Junction, which then brings them up to every other elements' d8 benchmark.
But really, if you aren't interested in using every trick in the book to maximize your offense, then you can pick any element you want, buy 1-2 impulses on damaging things, and you're set. All the rest can be defensive, battlefield control, movement, whatever, and you'll hit the damage benchmark for kineticists. It is a very forgiving class in terms of the amount of build resources you "need" to spend to be decent/as good as most other kineticists at dealing damage, because what you "need" to spend is 1.
Earth and metal are more balanced with offense and defense.Personally, I think Wood outdoes both of them for 'balanced offense and defense.' It does the same damage. It has the same armoring impulse as metal. It has both out of combat and in-combat healing which they don't. It has protector tree, which is excellent. Lastly, it's blast has vitality, which is great to have when facing undead - and let's face it, they show up a lot across many APs. But, 'most balanced' is subjective so I think this is certainly a subject on which reasonable people can disagree.
They get it at different levels, different ranges, different damage dice, and different levels of effectiveness.
You can build kineticist different ways. It's a hard class to discuss like other classes.
It's not like a martial where you calculate the damage with a weapon and call it done with easy comparisons.
How do you compare like an earth and wood kineticist who can heal, put up those damage berms, armor themselves up, and eventually get immunity to crits and earth damage where they can AOE blast in their own aura with impunity if they choose immunity to their elemental tag.
Kineticist get a lot of stuff that is hard to value. You have people focusing on pure damage.
What about nearly unlimited flight in fiery body form or unlimited burrowing in earth form with free action sustain with Effortless Impulse at level 12?
Or if you take the resistance junction that can give you immunity to cold and fire or other types of immunity?
Or the air aura that let's you take a half move flight eventually provoking no reactions after using an impulse?
How do you value some of this stuff they can do which no other class can do?
Single target, not AOE.
The Inventor does AoE damage. And properly built is beyond the damage a non-Fire Kineticist can do (but I agree the class is clunky so lots of players trip themselves when building it).
But overall, being the "worst AoE damage dealer" is not exactly a good place for a class.
Also, single target damage can be compared to AoE damage. They don't exist in a vacuum. If a Fighter outdamages a Kineticist even when facing multiple foes then the Fighter does more damage than the Kineticist.
I mean, what are you comparing to? Single target melee damage from martial classes that start next to the enemy and are benefitting from short ranged buffs like bless, inspire courage and runic weapon? Because yes you'll be outdamaged by the greatpick fighter or the greataxe dragon barbarian, but they don't have, you know, range. Or area (ho boy does AV have stuff that's trivalised by area abilities and murders single target martials)
2- are my standards too High? Cause when Someone says that flying flames has good damage i'm appalled. But they're surely not lying for the fun of it, so the problem Is either their or my expectations. Who's right In this case?
PS: my "High standards" for stuff might be like that because my First real experience with this system was abomination vault
In the defense of barbarians and fighters, they have Whirlwind Strike but it lvl 14, melee, costs all your actions, it's limited to your reach (so it's pretty good with giant barbarians, ok for the rest with reach weapons and situational for non-reach weapons) and doesn't have a failure effect.
In practice if we take some attention kineticists probably is the class that get some good ranged and good area AoE since the first level. Not even casters have this so early, they usually are limited to EA (that is not really AoE its a 2 target reflex spell), Scatter Scree that is 2 adjacent squares and Burning Hands Breathe Fire (fell free to add more if I'm forgeting some good AoE level 1 spell). Also due Safe Elements they get non-friend-fire AoE pretty earlier and for all 2-actions or less impulses.
Sometimes we talk about that kineticists have way less diversity with the impulses than a caster have with spells but they get so many good feats and impulses that can do many things that sometimes looks likes as they are more flexible than many casters builds.
Earth and metal are more balanced with offense and defense.
Personally, I think Wood outdoes both of them for 'balanced offense and defense.' It does the same damage. It has the same armoring impulse as metal. It has both out of combat and in-combat healing which they don't. It has protector tree, which is excellent. Lastly, it's blast has vitality, which is great to have when facing undead - and let's face it, they show up a lot across many APs. But, 'most balanced' is subjective so I think this is certainly a subject on which reasonable people can disagree.
I agree IMO the wood is the more well balanced element between offensive, defensive and utility. But once that do a single element kineticist during all 20 levels usually doesn't worth we usually only take some unique wood impulses instead.
I played an earth/fire kineticist up to lvl 12. It was great, good damage, great tanking abilities, great auras, good mobility and some utility.
The thing is, I got bored and I don’t know why. My turns were mostly the same but then so are a martial’s. So I don’t know what killed it for me but despite being pretty powerful, I found it bland.
It's simply, because unless the encounter forces you to act different due some circumstance you will the same optimal strategy every encounter.
This is one of the reasons why today, if I make a new kineticist I would invest more in utility impulses to be more useful outside of encounters as well. If you make a character very focused on combat you can end up in a situation similar to the Starlit Span Magus + Psychic Archetype. You will be super efficient, but you will spend most of your time being a tower that only fires its best shot and nothing else.
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One or more Kineticists have been at every pf2 table I've played with, and I agree that they are overall very well made from the PoV of balance and role design.
Paizo really did bullseye the small target of not out-performing classes more specialized at their job (being lower single target DPS than the Strikers), while giving them their own combat niche where they often do actually pull ahead (extended fights with multiple hardy targets, Kin can/will outdo casters, but shorter AoE bursts still go to the caster-blasters).
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I also agree with one of the main points of the OP that has been buried in the relevant tangents:
While the class overall performs & plays great at the table, on the builder side of things, there are waaay too many completely crap feats/impulses that are either never taken, or never practical to use.
This is especially bad / painful for Kin due to how each element can be siloed, so you do *not* have the coverage to get every type of ability you'd want. If your elements have 1 or 2 poorly written / scaled feats that are useless, that means that you are missing the option coverage they were intended to fill.
One extra-painful example is the [composite] impulses. They are supposed to be a big deal fusion of your specialties, but many of them are worthless or "traps" to ever attempt, and the issue I'm trying to echo is that there's no "option cushion" inside Kin, there is only one single composite impulse per 2 element mix. Your entire Kin build can be warped around getting one of the few good/great composites, like Steam Knight (and avoiding the bad composites).
Unlike with spells that you can generally convince a GM to allow you to reflavor and mechanically alter via an element change, Kin is written so that such house-rule customization is much, much harder to sell to a GM.
If you love your Kin's themeing of being a Wood | Water master, you are kinda just screwed if you see Ambush Bladderwort, and do the Dipper meme of "This is useless!"
This is the "feel (very) bad" sentiment that OP is trying to convey, and one which I can totally agree/empathize with.
Kin's a weird case, because of how bad it can feel to build outside of a game session, while actually being great once you skip/pass on all the crap feats/impulses. Like, they were so hastily written that Mudslide was published without a range yall. (and many others have unmentioned gaps / mechanics entirely up to the GM to invent/adjudicate)
Kin clearly suffers from this rushed/slipshod work, and will continue to until more impulses are published and/or changed in errata.
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All due respect, have you actually played a Fire kineticist? Cause every feat you've mentioned Is situational and has low damage. Sure you can hit stuff very far (three strides/Two from a fast creature) away but not for a good...Build toward the tactic you want rather than just cramming the highest damage you can find and then being frustrated.
Weapon Infusion gives you a max range increment of 100, which means your actual max range is 600, and if you're using fire that means you can burninate the countryside around the enemy even if you can't hit them.
Burning Jet helps you keep out of melee range.
Scorching Column keeps your enemies from closing.
Crawling Fire extends your range even further, starting at 30' and then you can make it move 40 with each sustain, plus you add an obstacle for your enemies.
Volcanic Escape helps get you out of melee.
Kindle Inner Flames lets you boost the allies you want in front of you, including archers.
Solar Detonation is a fancy fireball with 60 range.
Architect of Flame gives you yet another barrier starting up to 120 feet away.
Furnace Form gives you flight so you can stay out of reach.
Walk Through the Conflagration is a 120 foot spicy teleport.
All Shall End in Flames and Ignite the Sun have a range of 500 feet.
Most of the kit is absurdly range-focused!
It's true that you can do even more damage in close range, but that's the standard tradeoff for melee. You can attack at insane ranges, so your enemies can be dead long before they can reach your aura's range. The nice thing about a kineticist is you can build for multiple ranges and tactics. Some of the same tricks you use to keep a distance can also be used to force targets to stay close.
As for the rest, my earth/water kineticist can literally create jacuzzi hot tubs from thin air using Extended Kinesis (create stone, expand stone into tub, create water, heat water, convert some water into steam). Also great for boiling food and making tea.
I haven't, but after 30 years of RPGs I know a min-max self-imposed build trap when I see it.
Try playing without multi-class tricks that reverse the strengths it's designed to have. The most generic fire build has range 60, 1d8 die damage due to fire junction when you two-action which is as good as it gets for vanilla kineticist blasts. All the other kineticist blasts are either shorter range or worse damage unless they start investing. This is the default subclass theme - close range damage at medium distance, less mobile than weaker air and less defensive or controlling than closer-range water, metal, wood, and earth.
To play into the subclass design, your goal should be to use 2+ action attacks whenever possible and to maximize your distance. Your core default role is basically a sniper. Because you're a kineticist, you have flexibility, so your aura junction lets you instead be a higher-risk close-range, but that's a sniper who specializes in smacking people with their bow.
Now, it's true that your blasts can be overshadowed pretty easily via Weapon Infusion (which you should have a good reason to not take), but your damage boost applies to any 2+ action fire impulse damage.
At level 1, the ranged option isn't Flying Flame, it's Scorching Column. It's a mini fireball that drops a sustainable damage patch. Do your d8 damage from 60 feet away and force them to move, or drop it early in combat as a soft barrier to pelt from behind. This gets better with Safe elements. Pick up Burning Jet and now you have a good tool for getting out of an ambush and out of melee range - distance is your armor. Weapon Infusion gets you end-of-map range.
Level 4 you grab Safe Elements, there aren't any medium+ range options here anyway.
Level 6 Crawling Fire, now you're in two places at once and can "reposition" at 40 speed with your sustain. It's also small, and your senses work through it, so while you take damage if it's hit it's still a great scouting option you can snuff out.
Level 8 Solar Detonation is a weird medium-range fireball that deals 6d8 fire damage plus 2d6 vitality, plus daze or blinded. It's weirdly vampire-murder-centric, and the blinded/dazed only works once, but you can use this every other round every fight all day long, and it gets stronger without needing to burn higher level resources.
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While the class overall performs & plays great at the table, on the builder side of things, there are waaay to many completely crap feats/impulses that are either never taken, or never practical to use.
But then I ask, what class isn't like that? What class doesn't have a series of feats that many consider crap? In fact, many feats that many consider meh are valued by others. And it's the same with ancestry, heritage, skill feats, general feats, and even spells, there are a huge amount of things that many people consider crap!
I understand that PF2e has an excessive amount of bloat. But honestly, every RPG is like that, whenever there is a range of options to choose from, there will also be a bunch that many people will consider subpar or useless, and at the same time others will consider really cool. I see this here all the time. A lot of people complaining that X is bad, subpar, useless, while others respond, but I liked it, I didn't think it was useless, you just don't know how to use it, and similar responses.
That's why I can't take this 100% seriously and I usually try to understand what difficulty the person is having and suggest an alternative. Because if you keep saying "yes, but there are a lot of things that are no good", then my friends, it will never end because there will always be a lot of things that someone doesn't like.
...All due respect, have you actually played a Fire kineticist? Cause every feat you've mentioned Is situational and has low damage. Sure you can hit stuff very far (three strides/Two from a fast creature)Build toward the tactic you want rather than just cramming the highest damage you can find and then being frustrated.
Weapon Infusion gives you a max range increment of 100, which means your actual max range is 600, and if you're using fire that means you can burninate the countryside around the enemy even if you can't hit them.
Burning Jet helps you keep out of melee range.
Scorching Column keeps your enemies from closing.
Crawling Fire extends your range even further, starting at 30' and then you can make it move 40 with each sustain, plus you add an obstacle for your enemies.
Volcanic Escape helps get you out of melee.
Kindle Inner Flames lets you boost the allies you want in front of you, including archers.
Solar Detonation is a fancy fireball with 60 range.
Architect of Flame gives you yet another barrier starting up to 120 feet away.
Furnace Form gives you flight so you can stay out of reach.
Walk Through the Conflagration is a 120 foot spicy teleport.
All Shall End in Flames and Ignite the Sun have a range of 500 feet.
Most of the kit is absurdly range-focused!
It's true that you can do even more damage in close range, but that's the standard tradeoff for melee. You can attack at insane ranges, so your enemies can be dead long before they can reach your aura's range. The nice thing about a kineticist is you can build for multiple ranges and tactics. Some of the same tricks you use to keep a distance can also be used to force targets to stay close.
As for the rest, my earth/water kineticist can literally create jacuzzi hot tubs from thin air using Extended Kinesis (create stone, expand stone into tub, create water, heat water, convert some water into steam). Also great for boiling food and making tea.
Honestly, you're being too nice here. I wouldn't even start with the fire kineticist. I'd most likely start with earth or another element that provides me with defensive power or utility with a good 2-action dmg impulse, even if it's overflow and only catches fire after level 5.
There's simply no point in using the same strategy from level 1-20. Classes with a lot of options are naturally harder to build, because they require you to consider how each option will be useful to you at each level. It's unlikely that you'll design a class like this with only the end-game in mind and it will be enjoyable; you'll probably suffer terribly only to be able to enjoy the potential of your class at the end, if the adventure gets to that point.
While the class overall performs & plays great at the table, on the builder side of things, there are waaay to many completely crap feats/impulses that are either never taken, or never practical to use.[...]
I understand that PF2e has an excessive amount of bloat. But honestly, every RPG is like that, whenever there is a range of options to choose from, there will also be a bunch that many people will consider subpar or useless, and at the same time others will consider really cool. I see this here all the time. A lot of people complaining that X is bad, subpar, useless, while others respond, but I liked it, I didn't think it was useless, you just don't know how to use it, and similar responses.
That's why I can't take this 100% seriously and I usually try to understand what difficulty the person is having and suggest an alternative. Because if you keep saying "yes, but there are a lot of things that are no good", then my friends, it will never end because there will always be a lot of things that someone doesn't like.
The single issue I'm attempting to convey is the exact opposite of option bloat.
Kin uniquely suffers from being starved for impulse choice, because they can only choose impulses, and only impulses of matching element. They are even triple restricted due to the extra mechanic of stances and auras, which can/will render some of the scare remaining options down to an even more feels-bad choice over what remains.
It is wild that I can over-explain this point and people still hear the literal opposite.
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Kin is a class that is essentially stuck with a crazy tiny cantrip spell list for each element. For each spell that's impracticable/bad for one oversight or another, it's an abnormally, Kin-specifically, huge pain point and loss for the class.
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The reason you see so many Steam Knights hopping around is not just because it's a neat and cool option, but because some of the only alternatives are useless crap like Living Bonfire (which could have been great w/ a bit more time in the oven).
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This is how Kin can still play very well at the table generally, but still feel uniquely-to-Kin bad to build/progress with as a player between sessions.
It's been very common in my experience to have Kin players ask the GM for a re-do when the new impulse turns out to be non-viable / too inferior to their old reliable, and the "well, this sucks" is audible.
I've played beside a Wood kin who had their Drifting Pollen only impose Sickened once or twice at most across five or six sessions before they gave up on it. Well over a dozen foe saves of doing nothing. Some options are obviously bad like Living Bonfire, and others really seem like they should work out in play, but only result in aggravation, all the more so because it's the one aura they've got.
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Pathfinder could certainly use more clear lines of abilities that fit into obvious builds, but there are downsides to having obvious silos (people stop looking outside of them), and pages are expensive. I would love to see 10x as many kineticist feats, but how many people are going to pay for $300 worth of expanded feats?
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The whole issue is the exact opposite of option bloat.
Kin suffers from being starved for impulse choice, because they can only choose impulses.
It is wild that I can over-explain this point and people still hear the literal opposite.
But that's what you implied.
For example, when you mentioned composition impulses, especially as an example, that's what I understood, that the class has several "crap" feats.
As for the hunger for feats, I understand, but for me, it was one of the design limitations given to the class in exchange for its chassis and unlimited resources and specialization.
The idea behind the kineticist's own design is that he would have more limited versatility than the casters, even for lore reasons, but that he would be the "master" of his elements. And even that has a way out. It may not be at the level that many would like, but there is, which is the reflow, Rapid Reattunement and in the end-game the Omnikinesis.
Kin is a class that is essentially stuck with a crazy tiny spell list for each element. For each spell that's impracticable for one oversight or another, it's an abnormally, Kin-specifically, huge pain point and loss for the class.
This is the natural consequence of a class with its own power, and unless the entire Rage of Elements was just about boosts for the kineticist, there was no way to expect anything different from this.
It's actually kind of strange because one minute you complain that the class doesn't have enough boosts, and the next you complain that many of the boosts that do exist are "bad". Now if most of the boosts that do exist are bad, ignore them and focus on the good ones because the class doesn't have enough slots anyway.
The reason you see so many Steam Knights hopping around is not just because it's a neat and cool option, but because some of the only alternatives are useless crap like Living Bonfire (which could have been great w/ a bit more time in the oven).
This kind of premise is crap.
I don't see many Steam Knights, in fact I rarely see a water kineticist who isn't a 'healer' (water + wood). For me, Steam Knight is garbage, because it uses up your Stance to deal 2d6 to creatures in the aura and only progresses 1d6 every 5 levels, meaning people basically get it through free action, and so I much prefer Thermal Nimbus, because it doesn't require a save, nor do you need to get an extra element for it, and it has a progression that in the end will be better than that. Leap is circumstantial and the movement bonus is the easiest thing to accumulate in Pathfinder 2e and normally you don't need to move that much with a kineticist.This is how Kin can still play very well at the table, and still feel bad to build/progress with as a player between sessions.
It's been very common in my experience to have Kin players ask...
Luckily I don't have that feeling. Every kineticist I've played has been very fun and enjoyable to play. It's obviously not the top DPR in the game, but he's been an extremely interesting and fun class to play, without the stress of resource management that the caster creates.
Pathfinder could certainly use more clear lines of abilities that fit into obvious builds, but there are downsides to having obvious silos (people stop looking outside of them), and pages are expensive. I would love to see 10x as many kineticist feats, but how many people are going to pay for $300 worth of expanded feats?
Still, the tendency is for new impulses to be added in future books. Not as many as in RoE, of course, but eventually we should see one or another book adding one or two pages of new impulses for the kineticist.
My only complaint is that the kineticist, nor the summoner (yes, I know it gained eidolons in RoE and BotD, but it's not the same attention that the core classes get) were core classes, otherwise we would probably already have more impulses.
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But then I ask, what class isn't like that?
Most of them. Most build defining options generally work at least to an acceptable level. Even 'bad' options tend to either have good alternatives or themselves represent more niche content.
Most classes aren't nearly as limited in option scope either, because the kineticist relies on their feats to define core gameplay more than most other classes.
Both of these mean that bad options or restrictive choice can be way more problematic for the kineticist.
Like the closest analog here is spells, but there are 120 level 2 arcane spells compared to two fourth level air kineticist feats. Clearly the impact of having an ill fitting or problematic option is on an entirely different scale here.
The wizard also doesn't lose access to spells if they decide to take an archetype instead.
To just kind of vaguely handwave the whole thing away as "well everyone has a bad feat or two" is just completely missing the whole point.
it will never end because there will always be a lot of things that someone doesn't like.
Man this is such a nihilistic take. Why even bother because you can probably find someone somewhere who won't like something? That's ridiculous.
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My earth/water kineticist leans into being a gravity well of a tank. Slippery ice aura, grabs, heals, damage resist, earthy armor, nets and bolas, and weapon infusion. I frequently have the off-guard bonus, my targets struggle to get away, and I'm a nightmare to meaningfully damage, and this is just at level 5. I am focusing on moving closer and closer to my "shark tank" theme where I will create an icy, watery prison where escape is only through being torn apart or drowning.
As for the hunger for feats, I understand, but for me, it was one of the design limitations given to the class in exchange for its chassis and unlimited resources and specialization.
The idea behind the kineticist's own design is that he would have more limited versatility than the casters, even for lore reasons, but that he would be the "master" of his elements. And even that has a way out. It may not be at the level that many would like, but there is, which is the reflow, Rapid Reattunement and in the end-game the Omnikinesis.
Identifying that this pain point is naturally caused by the choice of design does nothing to diminish the pain point as it exists.
Having problems with their chosen design simply means that there are problems with their chosen design, lol.Even the other surrounding system quirks like Kins being less friendly to their archetype choice, further increases the pain point of limited (good) impulse choices.
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It's actually kind of strange because one minute you complain that the class doesn't have enough boosts, and the next you complain that many of the boosts that do exist are "bad". Now if most of the boosts that do exist are bad, ignore them and focus on the good ones because the class doesn't have enough slots anyway.
If you find this strange, you may need to get more perspective. Feats exists in a design space of comparative choice.
A feat can be super thematic and cool, and even mechanically be the exact tool you are looking for. But if the numbers are complete s!++, then you'll skip it and take another feat that is comparatively better. Everything is a comparative equation where the end total of [pick me?] is the sum of [fun] + [performance].Saying there are not enough impulse choices, and that too many of the existing choices are too bad to be usable, due to numbers or design oversights, are statements that directly support the same presented problem.
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While it is a distraction to get into defending a specific impulse, I'll do so anyway for Steam Knight. (If an impulse like Steam Knight is "garbage" then Kin is seriously screwed for choice)
Steam Knight is a stance that adds (non MAP) damage to movement, and does *not* occupy the aura slot. It scales in damage just behind any +1d6 per 2 R spell that's scaled for sustain-repeat AoE damage, it triggers the Aura Junction's weakness, and you can freely trigger a puff of steam for damage and forced movement chance once per turn; doing this dmg without being forced to use the primary niche feature of "damage as you move."
It's like a damage sustain spell that has it's own 0A sustain built in. Rouse Skeletons eat your heart out.
Oh, and it has yet another ribbon of passive speed bonus plus speed-to-Leap conversion. As it's a Stance, it plays directly into the main Kin mechanic of what to do when you (re)open your gate.
It is one of the most useful composites while still be perfectly flavorful and not trapped by its niche.
While often overshadowed by Thermal Nimbus being a super simple damage Stance, that does not take away from Steam Knight genuinely being one of the better Stances, and one of the few good composites.
By nature of all the utility, Steam Knight *should* deal less damage than T Nimbus, and it being that close while having so many other benefits is IMO what makes it one of the best designed abilities in the Kin class.
(SK scales at .7 p level, unevenly, with basic reflex save | TN is flat .5 per level)
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But then I ask, what class isn't like that?Most of them. Most build defining options generally work at least to an acceptable level. Even 'bad' options tend to either have good alternatives or themselves represent more niche content.
Most classes aren't nearly as limited in option scope either, because the kineticist relies on their feats to define core gameplay more than most other classes.
Both of these mean that bad options or restrictive choice can be way more problematic for the kineticist.
Like the closest analog here is spells, but there are 120 level 2 arcane spells compared to two fourth level air kineticist feats. Clearly the impact of having an ill fitting or problematic option is on an entirely different scale here.
The wizard also doesn't lose access to spells if they decide to take an archetype instead.
To just kind of vaguely handwave the whole thing away as "well everyone has a bad feat or two" is just completely missing the whole point.
it will never end because there will always be a lot of things that someone doesn't like.Man this is such a nihilistic take. Why even bother because you can probably find someone somewhere who won't like something? That's ridiculous.
I'm not being nihilistic.
1. I simply disagree with you, because I don't see or have all this problem with the kineticist's feats. Quite the opposite, it's probably the class that has the largest list of good feats at every level I've ever played. The only thing I can agree with is the composite feats, because I think many of them are subpar, for what they cost and are intended to be. But that's more about a whole set of feats that in my opinion don't meet the concept and the potential that the impulse mix could pass on.
2. For me, a lot of the complaints that class X (in this current case the kineticist) has too many bad feats simply come back to a lot of people who say "but I like these feats, they work for me!". That's why, over time, I've come to believe that the perception of feats that are good and bad is extremely relative, except in cases where the vast majority of the community agrees.
3. Because of this, today, when I criticize a class, I usually try to criticize it in a more general context, occasionally pointing out specific feats and features, but focusing more on the whole. Something I do, for example, with the inventor nowadays, a class that in my opinion is very messy and weak, but even so, I know that there are those who see strong points in it and defend it, at least partially, but for me this is not the case with the kineticist, for example, which for me is a stupidly flexible, interesting, fun class, and full of potential. And it's not one or another feat that makes me consider it bad, or even an entire category like composite (which still has some that are worth saving IMO).
4. And I repeat, I see people complaining about weak or useless feats against the fighter, the monk, the gunslinger... complaining about this only about the kineticist is unfair, to say the least. I understand that it is a class that depends a lot on feats, and that without them the class would lose a lot, but it is not very different from the monk or the fighter to me, these without their feats would also lose a lot. The monk would basically be a martial who fights without armor and can do 2 Strikes in one action, the fighter would be a martial who can use heavy armor and a shield and has +2 to hit by default, and the kineticist would be a class with very high constitution, light armor, who can attack both melee and ranged without spending actions, automatically causing up to 5d6 + Con if you use 2 actions for the ranged blast + another 5d6 to use a MAP -5 ranged blast and that can add Str if you are melee without risk of trigger an AoO/RS. I understand that of these 3, the kineticist is the one who loses the most without feats, but I also understand that its feats have a much greater diversity and potential than those of the fighter and the monk.
That's why I still defend it, I think that an injustice is being done to the kineticist in this thread. It is a fantastic class, and the problems that have been mentioned so far, I see in a much more general way throughout the system, and it is also quite relative from person to person.