Spring Errata 2025 suggestions


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Speaking of which ...

Source: Player Core 2, p. 21
Abstract: Legacy Wording "ability"

Player Core 2, p. 21 wrote:

Spellhorn Cobold

[...] You are trained in the spell attack modifier and spell DC statistics, and your key spellcasting ability is Charisma." (hyperlink and italics mine)

Correction: Replace spellcasting ability by spellcasting attribute.


Source: Player Core 2, p. 264
Abstract: Legacy-Remaster-Hybrid Wording "ability attribute" in Spell Jealous Hex

Player Core 2, p. 264, bottom half wrote:

Jealous Hex

[...]

You draw forth a hag's innate jealousy to deny a target its greatest attribute. The target is cursed with an adverse condition depending on its highest attribute modifier: Strength (enfeebled); Dexterity (clumsy); Constitution (drained); or Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma (stupefied). On a tie, the creature decides which of the conditions associated with the tied ability attribute to take.

(hyperlink and italics mine)

Correction: Remove word "ability".


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

War of Immortals 58 (Avenger archetype)

The archetype abilities and feats don't seem to account for deities that have fist as their favored weapon.

Divine Mysteries / Supplemental God Table (web)

There are a half dozen deities in Pathfinder that have favored weapon "fist." Of those, two offer alternative options (claw and spear).

Since many of the abilities that reference a deity's favored weapon (such as those from the aforementioned Avenger) make the assumption that they are, in fact wielded weapons, this creates a problematic disconnect since fists are NOT weapons at all, much less wielded weapons.

Player Core 267
The definition of wield only references held items and weapons, and does not seem to account for your own anatomy, such as claw or fist. This leads to problems with abilities that require you to be "wielding" your diety's favored "weapon" when the favored weapon is an unarmed attack of some kind.

Something should be done so that followers of fist deities are not cut off from options that are intended to work with them.

Possible Solutions
- Create specific exceptions where such interactions make no sense or don't function as intended. Avenger in particular is in need of this, though there are likely other cases where a deity's favored weapon is referenced that this causes similar disconnects/problems.
- Errata those half dozen deities that have "fist" as their favored weapon so that they all offer alternatives (that are weapons).
- Clarify that a fist and other unarmed attacks can be or are always "wielded" so as to clear up some corner cases where that distinction is important for abilities to function properly.


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Just make Fists and other unarmed attacks. "Weapons" and just fix this already honestly.

On a side note clarify rather or not holding a shield/buckler gives you a "free" hand. We been going back and forth on it at my table and can not decide.

One more thing can a Thaumaturge dual-wield if one of the two weapons a weapon implement? We been back and forth on it for purposes like double slice and other similar feats, such as Twin Takedown.


Maybe there's a specific reason for this I'm unaware of, but combat grab not having any built-in exception for the grapple trait is a major feel bad. Like in the fiction, I don't see why a kholo who can grab with their jaws can't use their teeth instead of a free hand to grab on to someone after their strike, or a kobold with a fangwire can't wrap it around their foe and pull them in as it cuts into their flesh. But RAW you have to use a free hand and grab them with that free hand. And I know you *can* grapple instead of using combat grab, but against high fort foes it's much more likely to fail.


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I honestly can't think of very few examples of stuff that would actually be broken if it allowed both weapons and unarmed strikes, but I do know of multiple things that were seemingly intended to be used with unarmed strikes and needed to be errata'ed because they initially didn't.

Unless you chose an ancestry with a good unarmed attack option (and even then, those still aren't fantastic and most of the time require a feat) most characters that want to use their fists are limited to a non-lethal 1d4 "weapon". If what makes unarmed attacks "OP" is the idea that someone can take 2 archetype feats to poach a monk stance then, at least in my books, you are paying the price for that extra versatility. Technically, you are paying 3 feats because that's minimum amount you need if you want to dip out from that archetype (either monk or martial artist) so even in FA games the commitment is still significant IMO.

If an effect would truly be so overpowered with fists then I would much prefer for that effect to specifically call out unarmed attacks rather than most martial feats having to waste page space in "if you use a weapon or unarmed attack". Having unarmed attacks simply be weapons would be much easier.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Secrets of Magic
There are a number of longstanding questions regarding eidolons that could really use some answers.

1) Can eidolons use mundane items such as a healer's toolkit, thievess toolkit, a shield, etc.)

2) What happens to afflictions and other ongoing effects on the eidolon when they are unmanifested (poison, persistent damage, disease, etc).

3) What happens when an eidolon is reduced to 0 HP by a death effect? Does the specific rule that an eidolon unmanifests when reaching 0 HP trump the general rule that creatures die when reduced to 0 HP by a death effect?


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Possible oversight: The Avenger is missing a feature that gives the class archetype Deadly Simplicity the way Vindicators, Warpriests, Battle Harbingers, and Champions do. Avengers of gods who favor sinple weapons shouldn't be at a disadvantage.

Sovereign Court

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Spell: Stifling Stillness
Source: Rage of Elements

Multiple points of attention:
1- The spell is at the same spell rank (and in the same spell lists) as Solid Fog and does the same with additional effects. This suggests the spell should at least have a higher spell rank than Solid Fog.
2- The spell combines the effects of Solid Fog and either a heightened Suffocate spell (Uncommon, base rank 6, heightened to 9) or a Vacuum spell that in addition deals some damage (Common, rank 7).
3- Can a target hold its breath when it starts its turn in the area of effect?
4- What happens when a character doesn't hold its breath and doesn't spend the action to breathe? Does it immediately fall unconscious and start suffocating?
5- What happens to Unconscious and Dying creatures in the area?
6- Is spellcasting still possible in the cloud at the cost of spending an action to breathe (and take damage)?

All in all, this spells seems stronger than Toxic Cloud (Spell rank 5), so in its current state it seems way too powerful for a 4th rank spell.


Either unnerf Multiclass Monk Archetype Flurry or nerf Spirit Warrior's Combined Strikes. Sure it is not as powerful but being able to use a d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is kinda silly and makes MC Monk Flurry of Blows seem silly to nerf when it is a level 10 feat vs a level 2 Dedication ability.

Which by the way 1d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is the same as 1d8 Tiger/Wolf Stance twice with Flurry of Blows.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Either unnerf Multiclass Monk Archetype Flurry or nerf Spirit Warrior's Combined Strikes. Sure it is not as powerful but being able to use a d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is kinda silly and makes MC Monk Flurry of Blows seem silly to nerf when it is a level 10 feat vs a level 2 Dedication ability.

Which by the way 1d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is the same as 1d8 Tiger/Wolf Stance twice with Flurry of Blows.

What d10 finesse weapon is there??? I haven't seen one from Paizo above a d8 or is there something else pumping up the die size?


Darth Grall wrote:
ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Either unnerf Multiclass Monk Archetype Flurry or nerf Spirit Warrior's Combined Strikes. Sure it is not as powerful but being able to use a d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is kinda silly and makes MC Monk Flurry of Blows seem silly to nerf when it is a level 10 feat vs a level 2 Dedication ability.

Which by the way 1d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is the same as 1d8 Tiger/Wolf Stance twice with Flurry of Blows.

What d10 finesse weapon is there??? I haven't seen one from Paizo above a d8 or is there something else pumping up the die size?

Whoops I meant D8, I somehow keep thinking Elven Curved Blade is d10 but still level 2 for 1d8 + 1d6 for 8 levels before Flurry of Blows with 1d4 Cooldown, on average that's on average 4-8 more damage if you use Tiger/Wolf stance vs Spirit Warrior Dedication, is it really by level 20. Is the Nerf really needed?

Horizon Hunters

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- Subtle (Player Core) This trait could use some clarification.
It seems like it removes the speech requirement for the spell it's on, "without incantations", but could be clearer.
The second half, "doesn't have obvious manifestations", is rather more vague. How does that interact with the actual game mechanics?
"Manifestations" are mentioned in the Casting Spells section, but are listed separately to the Spell Signature; does that still appear? Does the spellcaster still have to wave their hands around elaborately? How many of these need to be hidden before it no longer triggers a reaction from something that pings off Manipulate or Concentrate?


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I beg your pardon for recycling older, not yet addressed errata request posts, which I consider still valid.

* Player Core 1, page 230 (bottom), General Skill Action "Learn a Spell (Trained)", whose description IMHO has a bad example (bard) and one instance of bad grammar:
See https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wcu&page=3?Pathfinder-Remaster-Errata-Su bmission#127

* Player Core 1, page 252, Feat "Armor Proficiency", whose description does not honor that it can be multiple proficiencies that scale at Level 13:
See https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wcu&page=3?Pathfinder-Remaster-Errata-Su bmission#128

* GM Core, page 225: Remainder of CRB's legacy crafting rules ("have the formula") / Inconsistency GMC vs. PC 1: See https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wcu&page=3?Pathfinder-Remaster-Errata-Su bmission#138


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Meta-Question: Assuming that some of the issues mentioned in the thread at hand won't make it into actual Spring Errata 2025 - how do you want us to deal with those?

My thoughts:
If there is no comment or other visible reaction (e.g. a status indicator like "rejected / under consideration / deferred / awaiting errata / ..." (you name it), there will be ongoing unclarity.
People might still be affected by the underlying issue, and those who specifically care about will keep wondering about its status. This can provoke dissatisfaction and/or repeated requests about the same issues, again and again.

What could really help for this: Some sort of structured way to submit, classify and track errata/clarification request input, similar to issue tracking tools (cp. public bugtracking sites) in software engineering.

I know this has been proposed by community members in some other thread. I endorse the idea and ask Paizo to consider such options, for their own benefit while simultaneously improving the community interaction incl. community-based product improvement.


That has to be the smartest thing I read in this thread. A better way to sort Errata/clarifications would be amazing! There is so many times where "Instant of Damage" with Resistance 1 All can easily turn into much more then simply 1 Resistance. If you attack with Physical/Void damage you suddenly double the 1 point because it triggers twice for some reason. Can this really be intended?


The two descriptions for Heroic Recovery (PC p412) and for Hero Points (PC p413) do not match, it appears the entry on page 413 is missing the key phrase "at the start of your turn or"... an omission which caused an incredibly long semantic/pedantic argument in our group and online. It was days before we realized there was a different entry for Heroic Recovery on p412 that cleared it up. So why not just fix it so they match?

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Howl of the Wild 74 (Thlipit Contestant archetype)

The lash unarmed attack cannot be used with Lunge (Player Core 142), which is listed as one of the archetype's additional feats. It appears the feat was listed with intent of being used with the archetype's unarmed attack.

Suggestion Add the following sentence to Thlipit Contestant Dedication's text: "Treat the unarmed attack as a melee weapon for the Lunge feat."


Guns and Gears pg. 56: Engine Bay archetype skill feat

The Engine Bay archetype skill feat is made redundant by the Quick Repair skill feat, as the Quick Repair feat, even at its lowest level, can repair 10 objects in the time that Engine Bay allows a character to repair 2. Boosted to 300 objects at Legendary proficiency at the time it takes to repair 8 objects.

And as far as I know, vehicles don't have any special acceptions that disallow Repair from Quick Repair.

Stacking them of course would be too much. Though perhaps a conditional for rewarding the extra time could be in order, such as either increasing the degree of success, or lowering the DC by an easy or very easy modifier.


Source: GM Core, p. 227, Rune "Winged"
Abstract: Mentions "breastplate" out of nowhere

Detail:

GM Core, p. 227, right column (bottom) wrote:
Activate—Take to the Skies [two-actions] (concentrate, manipulate); Frequency once per hour; Effect You trace the rune on the front of the breastplate,

(italics mine.)

I don't know, where that "breastplate" came from, suddenly.

Correction suggestion: Replace "breastplate" by something more general like "etched armor".


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ElementalofCuteness wrote:
Darth Grall wrote:
ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Either unnerf Multiclass Monk Archetype Flurry or nerf Spirit Warrior's Combined Strikes. Sure it is not as powerful but being able to use a d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is kinda silly and makes MC Monk Flurry of Blows seem silly to nerf when it is a level 10 feat vs a level 2 Dedication ability.

Which by the way 1d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is the same as 1d8 Tiger/Wolf Stance twice with Flurry of Blows.

What d10 finesse weapon is there??? I haven't seen one from Paizo above a d8 or is there something else pumping up the die size?
Whoops I meant D8, I somehow keep thinking Elven Curved Blade is d10 but still level 2 for 1d8 + 1d6 for 8 levels before Flurry of Blows with 1d4 Cooldown, on average that's on average 4-8 more damage if you use Tiger/Wolf stance vs Spirit Warrior Dedication, is it really by level 20. Is the Nerf really needed?

I don't think you can use an elven curved blade with overwhelming combination as it requires 2 hands to wield


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Riddlyn wrote:
ElementalofCuteness wrote:
Darth Grall wrote:
ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Either unnerf Multiclass Monk Archetype Flurry or nerf Spirit Warrior's Combined Strikes. Sure it is not as powerful but being able to use a d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is kinda silly and makes MC Monk Flurry of Blows seem silly to nerf when it is a level 10 feat vs a level 2 Dedication ability.

Which by the way 1d10 Finesse weapon into a 1d6 Agile Fist is the same as 1d8 Tiger/Wolf Stance twice with Flurry of Blows.

What d10 finesse weapon is there??? I haven't seen one from Paizo above a d8 or is there something else pumping up the die size?
Whoops I meant D8, I somehow keep thinking Elven Curved Blade is d10 but still level 2 for 1d8 + 1d6 for 8 levels before Flurry of Blows with 1d4 Cooldown, on average that's on average 4-8 more damage if you use Tiger/Wolf stance vs Spirit Warrior Dedication, is it really by level 20. Is the Nerf really needed?
I don't think you can use an elven curved blade with overwhelming combination as it requires 2 hands to wield

Curve Blade is finesse and Overwhelming Combination requires a one-handed or a weapon with finesse or agile. Should be fine.


Issue: What does it mean to make a "Fist" attack? If a feat/feature tells you to make a Fist attack, does it have to be a punch? The community keeps having the same arguments as seen above.

@Squiggit: The point of contention is whether or not you can make the fist attack specified by overwhelming combination with your hands full (since kicking/headbutting/etc. is mechanically identical). This is not the thread to litigate the debate in.


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FAQ which should be errata'd "Instant of Damage" Because it is odd that Resist All applies to all damage while Weakness All does not. This might not be a true Errata but is going on since Day 1 of Pathfinder Second Edition's Release.

I am sure that Overwhelming Combination requires it's own thread but the rules do state that the "Fist Weapon can be a kick or rather an unarmed strike using the Fist modifiers, so yes I believe if it states it can be used with a Curved Blade then RAW it over writes base rules somehow.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:

FAQ which should be errata'd "Instant of Damage" Because it is odd that Resist All applies to all damage while Weakness All does not. This might not be a true Errata but is going on since Day 1 of Pathfinder Second Edition's Release.

I am sure that Overwhelming Combination requires it's own thread but the rules do state that the "Fist Weapon can be a kick or rather an unarmed strike using the Fist modifiers, so yes I believe if it states it can be used with a Curved Blade then RAW it over writes base rules somehow.

Specific overrides general, and for overwhelming combination is specifically says your first unarmed attack. So while I believe all of your unarmed attacks move to d6 and you can indeed wield said curved blade, for that particular action I believe by the wording it's an actual fist attack


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ElementalofCuteness wrote:

FAQ which should be errata'd "Instant of Damage" Because it is odd that Resist All applies to all damage while Weakness All does not. This might not be a true Errata but is going on since Day 1 of Pathfinder Second Edition's Release.

I find it funny to see this because when I brought this topic up in a different thread, I was told repeatedly that Weakness All does in fact apply to every damage type in an single attack since each they are supposedly all separate instances of damage and Foundry does it that way.

But yes, I would like to see clarification on this rule because the specific clause for Resist All is written as if it's an exception while Weakness All doesn't have it at all. So either the clause is redundant or Weakness All functions differently than Resist All.


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Lyra Amary wrote:
ElementalofCuteness wrote:

FAQ which should be errata'd "Instant of Damage" Because it is odd that Resist All applies to all damage while Weakness All does not. This might not be a true Errata but is going on since Day 1 of Pathfinder Second Edition's Release.

I find it funny to see this because when I brought this topic up in a different thread, I was told repeatedly that Weakness All does in fact apply to every damage type in an single attack since each they are supposedly all separate instances of damage and Foundry does it that way.

But yes, I would like to see clarification on this rule because the specific clause for Resist All is written as if it's an exception while Weakness All doesn't have it at all. So either the clause is redundant or Weakness All functions differently than Resist All.

Anytime this topic comes up you'll be told multiple things because there has never been consensus on how it actually works in these more complicated cases. Weakness All is a new one because until Mythic it was just theoretical since nothing in the game did that.

This whole part of the rules is the poster child for why PF2 needs a FAQ similar to what PF1 has. A couple examples of the complex cases would clear it right up.


This needs Errata/FAW section because it either makes Thaumaturge/Thaumaturge Dedication absurd. Apply Weakness 2 which in fact than bounces off of all damage types you currently have? We have an old post from Pathfinder Second Edition Playtest from Mark Seifter, an ex-designer of PF-2E

Is this still valid?


ElementalofCuteness wrote:

This needs Errata/FAW section because it either makes Thaumaturge/Thaumaturge Dedication absurd. Apply Weakness 2 which in fact than bounces off of all damage types you currently have? We have an old post from Pathfinder Second Edition Playtest from Mark Seifter, an ex-designer of PF-2E

Is this still valid?

Not to discuss or dispute, but I don't understand at all what you consider a problem. What exactly needs errata or FAQ in your opinion?


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In fact, it's something we've posted before in this thread and in others.

A clearer explanation of how damage instances work is needed. What they are and when you have only one or multiple instances, where extra/additional damage fits into them, how multiple resistances and weaknesses interact in the same instance and in different instances, how Shield Block comes into all of this, and so on.

Both CRB and PC1 do a very good job explaining attack rolls, but the damage roll is as complex as it but it's not so well explained, especially since it's not uncommon for different types of damage and extra/additional damage that aren't bonuses and we are not fully sure how they interact.


Tridus wrote:


This whole part of the rules is the poster child for why PF2 needs a FAQ similar to what PF1 has. A couple examples of the complex cases would clear it right up.

Maybe more then two, to be safe. Some examples for things don't clear up the problems people have with it. So more examples, especially for rare or more complex situations, could greatly improve understanding.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Please keep long discussions out of the thread and make your own thread if you want to discuss this topic at length.

Horizon Hunters

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Errata: This thread.

Thinking it might have been better suited to the Rules Discussion section of the forums rather than General Discussion, based on the descriptions of those...


Question: Exemplar & Ikons

Is there anything stopping the Exemplar from grabbing two of the same Ikons? Can I have two Scar of the Survivor since nothing states otherwise.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Moth Mariner wrote:

Errata: This thread.

Thinking it might have been better suited to the Rules Discussion section of the forums rather than General Discussion, based on the descriptions of those...

General Discussion is more visible, because it gets more views and this thread is meant to be viewed by the developers as a ressource to find rules to errata.


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Errata: Lost Omens Rival Academy

Question: Runelord - Envy - Anathema

It says to not deal damage with the elements or void but what counts as the elements? Rage of Elements defines the Elements as Air, Earth, Fire, Metal, Water & Wood. Meaning both Acid, Electricity and Sonic is not an Element but it is an energy type.

Would Acid Storm be breaking my Anathema despite Acid not being listed as an Element in Rage of Elements?

While the Arcane/Primal Cantrip Elemental Counter adds Plant to the list of things it can counter but removes Air. So should we consider all Energy Damage as Elemental damage as well as Metal, Plants & Wood trait spells as Elemental?

Then why call out Void if it refers to Energy Damage as Elementla Damage because Void is listed as a special type of Energy Damage and so is Vitality. What about Force damage which is an Energy Type? Is pure magic still an Element? What about Poison damage?


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Requested Errata change to ancient elf heritage (one of the three):

1) Multiclass dedication, for the heritage given dedication, allows you to ignore the whole two dedication feats to pick another dedication limitation normally in place.

(I'll admit that I prefer this option as it cuts out the enforced path and lets you treat the dedication as your hobby, opening up the classic old option of fighter/magic-user/thief by level 2.)

2) give the heritage the ability to lower level requirements for that multiclass's dedication by 2 so that I can immediately advance on the secondary class abilities.

3) add a second level 2 ability that can be chosen once the dedication is chosen.

Horizon Hunters

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- Runes and Alchemical Foods - please give these things their own traits so they can be identified and separated from a) the upcoming runesmith stuff, and b) other alchemical items when people are trying to find what they can craft for the wandering chef dedication etc.


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Player Core 2
Class: Alchemist
Issue: Quick vials / field vials are notably action taxing, especially for the toxicologist.

Outside of bomber, thanks to how good Quick Bomber is, Alchemist still has a lot of action economy headaches to face. For Toxicologist in particular, while it's only 1 action to apply a poison, it's still 1 action to draw or create a poison, which means it's still basically a 2 action activity. (Compare that to Rogue's Poison Weapon feat which allows them to draw and apply a poison all as one action. I feel like you could make an alchemist variant of this feat as well, though I'm not really suggesting that here.)

The real pain point however is field vials: the rules allow a quick alchemy poison to last for 10 minutes once it's applied, but for using a field vial, the poison will only last until the end of your current turn. This means unless you can only use this feature if you can dedicate all 3 actions to a single strike.

For other subclasses, their field vial use is effectively 2 actions: they make the vial, and then use it. For toxicologist however, it has to be created, applied, then struck with, a 3 action commitment on a single turn.

Action compression is one solution, but another small fix might be to allow the injury poison from a field vial to last until the end of the player's next turn, so they can spread the action cost across two turns instead of having to commit all 3 in one round, sorta like how spellstrike works for the Magus.

(I actually would be interested in some more radical changes too to help shore up the non-bomber subclasses, but I feel like suggesting the ability to make Quick Alchemy - create consumable a free action 1/round, even just for items of your own research field might be too radical of an errata for some people. It would effectively give everyone a type of quick bomber benefit that's tailored to their subclass, though.)

Horizon Hunters

- Ancestry Entries Traits (Player Core pg 41), this rule breaks all Amphibious ancestries.

"These descriptors have no mechanical benefit"

But the Amphibious trait is the only thing giving them water-breathing (plus some other underwater mechanical benefits).
Time to suffocate both on land and underwater.

Horizon Hunters

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- Greater Phantasmal Doorknob (Treasure Vault) this thing blinds on a critical hit with no save.
That's a very powerful effect to throw out with no save and no cost to use repeatedly.

Horizon Hunters

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- Initiative with Hidden Enemies (GM Core) is a bit confused, which I think is because of a mixed-up or missing condition.

“To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed.”

So they’re undetected if they beat both initiative and perception, but they’re also undetected if they only beat perception and not initiative?

The addition of “but not unnoticed” to the second state suggests that the first state should in fact be “unnoticed”, or “undetected and unnoticed”.

Horizon Hunters

- Halcyon Mists (Rival Academies) gives temporary HP with no duration.

This seems overpowered: popping temporary HP on every party member in the morning or during a long break can definitely change the balance of fights. At the highest levels of play that means each party member would be starting with an extra ~45thp.

It has a lot in common with Soothing Mist (Player Core), though that gives real hp and heals slightly more (plus some other differences), so that doesn't really help with the question of how long the temporary hp should last.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Moth Mariner wrote:

- Initiative with Hidden Enemies (GM Core) is a bit confused, which I think is because of a mixed-up or missing condition.

“To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed.”

So they’re undetected if they beat both initiative and perception, but they’re also undetected if they only beat perception and not initiative?

The addition of “but not unnoticed” to the second state suggests that the first state should in fact be “unnoticed”, or “undetected and unnoticed”.

I sure hope this gets fixed. It's been a pain in my backside ever since Remaster rolled out.

Stealth worked before without that clarification. The clarification broke it.

Verdant Wheel

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I'm not sure if this is something Paizo deals with in their errata...

But Korakai's Remastered Pregen Sheet (1/3/5) has some mistakes in the Revelation Section.

For lvl. 1 sheet: Pg. 2.
For lvl. 3 sheet: Pg. 2.
For lvl. 5 sheet: Pg. 3.

For Lvl. 1/3/5 Korakai, on the page with Revelation Spells and Curse, it says under Revelation Spells:

"When you cast a revelation spell, it causes your oracular curse to progress (see Oracular Curse below)."

That is no longer true in the Remaster.

For lvl. 1/3/5 Korakai, on the page with Revelation Spells and Curse, under the Tempest Touch spell:

"Tempest Touch (uncommon, cold, cursebound, focus, manipulate, oracle, water)"

Revelation spells no longer have the cursebound trait, so Tempest Touch should not have the cursebound trait in the Remaster.

For lvl. 5 Korakai, on the page with Revelation Spells and Curse, under the Charged Javelin spell:

"Charged Javelin: (attack, cursebound, electricity)"

Charged Javelin is a revelation spell, but revelation spells no longer gain the cursebound trait. Charged Javelin should not have the cursebound trait in the Remaster.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How many actions does it take for a Toxicologist Alchemist to use Quick Alchemy to make a consumable injury poison (not field vial, but a formula, example: Giant Centipede Venom) out of a Versatile Vial and shoot someone with a blowgun to injure them with that poison?

I get conflicting answers on this and it makes me realize the wording goes all over the place between the different things, leading to confusion.

So a Toxicologist can use quick alchemy to craft a consumable. Which expires at the start of their next turn.
A blowgun has a reload of 1 and uses blowgun dart ammo.

So if they want to use a versatile vial to create an injury poison consumable and shoot someone with a blowgun to deliver that poison... what occurs?

4 actions: reload, craft poison, apply poison, shoot
3 actions: craft and apply poison to ammo, load weapon with dart, shoot
3 actions: craft/apply poison, load weapon with that poison, shoot
2 action: craft and apply poison, shoot

Impossible - because you need to apply before you reload, and so your 4th action takes place after it expires.

When I've asked this I've gotten theories that are all over the place.

It seems to mostly split 3 ways:

1. 4 actions as I noted above.
2. Impossible as I noted above.

3. A weird new idea: Once you apply to the ammo, it has 10 minutes to be shot - this is because the 'item' was used before your next turn, but the effect is now on the ammo for the next 10 minutes.

It seems like RAW the correct answer is 'Impossible'. But this needs clarity.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Moth Mariner wrote:

- Initiative with Hidden Enemies (GM Core) is a bit confused, which I think is because of a mixed-up or missing condition.

“To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed.”

So they’re undetected if they beat both initiative and perception, but they’re also undetected if they only beat perception and not initiative?

The addition of “but not unnoticed” to the second state suggests that the first state should in fact be “unnoticed”, or “undetected and unnoticed”.

I sure hope this gets fixed. It's been a pain in my backside ever since Remaster rolled out.

Stealth worked before without that clarification. The clarification broke it.

Forgive me for indulging in discussion, but I wanted to clarify this issue if possible. The paragraph as excerpted from the GM Core seems to reprint verbatim what the mechanics were before the remaster, in the Gamemastery Guide (p11). To my knowledge, it works identically to how Stealth for Initiative did before.

Further, it's possible that the confusion in the OP stems from the impression that Unnoticed is on the same condition track as Observed, Hidden, and Undetected. This is not the case, but rather the description of Unnoticed shows that it does not replace Undetected. Indeed, the two overlap in those circumstances where you are both not seen and have not yet been detected by any creature. By default, until a creature sees (or hears, etc) you for the first time, you're Unnoticed, which is why it's only called out in the "Succeeded on Avoid Notice, lost initiative" section as an exception. This chiefly resolves the corner case that the top initiative character doesn't know they're in an encounter yet, despite reacting fastest.

(Pure speculation, but it may be fair to say that there are times where you might start a combat Undetected, but not be Unnoticed, and this may be why the general rules avoid automatically granting you Unnoticed any time you succeed at Stealth for Initiative. For example, you have been noticed by the guards and duck into a room. Initiative is rolled when they enter the room behind you. They may not see you hiding in that barrel, but they are not unaware of a threat in their vicinity)


Hoatu wrote:

I'm not sure if this is something Paizo deals with in their errata...

But Korakai's Remastered Pregen Sheet (1/3/5) has some mistakes in the Revelation Section.

For lvl. 1 sheet: Pg. 2.
For lvl. 3 sheet: Pg. 2.
For lvl. 5 sheet: Pg. 3.

For Lvl. 1/3/5 Korakai, on the page with Revelation Spells and Curse, it says under Revelation Spells:

"When you cast a revelation spell, it causes your oracular curse to progress (see Oracular Curse below)."

That is no longer true in the Remaster.

For lvl. 1/3/5 Korakai, on the page with Revelation Spells and Curse, under the Tempest Touch spell:

"Tempest Touch (uncommon, cold, cursebound, focus, manipulate, oracle, water)"

Revelation spells no longer have the cursebound trait, so Tempest Touch should not have the cursebound trait in the Remaster.

For lvl. 5 Korakai, on the page with Revelation Spells and Curse, under the Charged Javelin spell:

"Charged Javelin: (attack, cursebound, electricity)"

Charged Javelin is a revelation spell, but revelation spells no longer gain the cursebound trait. Charged Javelin should not have the cursebound trait in the Remaster.

AFAIK the pregen characters are handled by the Organized Play team, so you might want to try posting this in the Pathfinder Society forum.

It's definitely wrong. I noticed it last time I was at a PFS game and someone wanted to use Korakai. Oracle is already complex, so trying to explain those kinds of errors really didn't help.


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Book: Tian Xia Character Guide
Feat: Unassuming Heroes (Leshy ancestry feat)
Issue: This feat applies a +1 striking benefit to an animal companion or NPC animal (similar to Runic Body), and grants them the ghost touch rune if they already have a +1 striking attack. However, these creatures do not normally interact with / cannot interact with +1 striking effects.

The problem is, unlike with players, animal companions cannot benefit from item bonuses, and neither of these types of creatures technically use "striking" runes--instead just gaining damage dice from their level or native progression.

Do NPC animals with 2 damage dice just gain a +1 to hit and can never gain ghost touch? Mature animal companions already have 2 dice themselves, but it's not a striking rune and they can't benefit from item bonuses, so does this feat do nothing for them?

I think the intent with the feat was at least obvious, but it should probably instead say something like:

"For the next 1 minute, one of the animal’s unarmed attacks gains an increase in its total number of damage dice, from 1 to 2. If it already had 2 or more damage dice, it instead gains the effects of the ghost touch rune."


Gunslinger
Munitions Machinist

Takes too many actions and can't be used with any activated ammo.
1: Quick alchemy (ooze ammunition for example)
2: Activate ammunition
3: Load
Expires at the start of your mext turn.

Recommendation
Munitions Machinist allows you to activate with the same action as quick alchemy.
1: Quick Alchemy + Activate
2: Load
3: Strike

[B]Alternative[B]
1 action Quick Alchemy + Load would also work, and prevent gunslinger specific reloads (Covered Reload).
1: Quick Alchemy + Load
2: Activate
3: Strike

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