Jina langu's page

It's just an error of omission that could be easily fixed in future errata and printings. That's all, no need for debate about it or the tactics involved. If it was removed on purpose, then remove it from the same rule on the facing page as well. It was obviously just an oversight one way or the other.

The two descriptions for Heroic Recovery (PC p412) and for Hero Points (PC p413) do not match, it appears the entry on page 413 is missing the key phrase "at the start of your turn or"... an omission which caused an incredibly long semantic/pedantic argument in our group and online. It was days before we realized there was a different entry for Heroic Recovery on p412 that cleared it up. So why not just fix it so they match?

I noticed a very small difference in two rules, on facing pages, that seem like they are probably meant to be identical, but there is a key phrase missing from one. It caused us no end of consternation before I realized there were two differently worded versions of what seems to be the same rule.

For Heroic Recovery, p.412: (allows for use at the start of your turn)
If you have at least 1 Hero Point (page 413), you can spend all of your remaining Hero Points at the start of your turn or when your dying value would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don’t gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don’t lose it or decrease its value.

For Hero Points, p.413: (does not allow for use at the start of your turn)
Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to avoid death. You can do this when your dying condition would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don't gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don't lose it or decrease its value.

This may seem like a minor semantic or even pedantic argument, but for those who are precise readers of game mechanics, this presented quite a problem, as the entry on p.413 would seem to disallow using Hero Points right away after you GAIN the dying condition, restricting its use for at least another turn until the dying value you gained would INCREASE. It seems like the intended rule is probably the wording for Heroic Recovery, which would allow you to use it at the start of your next turn instead of needing to wait until your dying condition would INCREASE. It was probably just a little error of omission, but thought I would bring it to someone's attention. If there is meant to be a difference, that's not clear.

Sorry I think I posted this in the wrong place initially. I've done days or research and written/copy/pasted thousands of words, but this is still not clear. Our current struggles are like this...

1> A familiar cannot Strike. Got it. This appears to be different than "cannot Attack". Strike seems to reference the melee attack normally innate to creatures. We totally understand that familiars are not those same creatures and a badger familiar is not the same as a badger animal. When evaluating whether a familiar can do a certain thing, it there a restriction on things that have the Attack trait? It seems like no, only things that actually say "Strike"? I don't think I've seen anything with a Strike trait, only the basic action Strike, which has the Attack trait, hence our confusion. So if using Spell Delivery, the familiar could deliver a touch spell with the Attack trait, right?

2a> When using Spell Delivery, we are unclear if the master uses an action to Command the familiar, or if that is sort of baked into the normal casting cost of the spell when using Spell Delivery. If the master casts a 2-action touch spell using Spell Delivery, does the master then ALSO spend one action commanding the delivery (and now is out of actions) or is the command part bundled in and costs nothing?

2b> Follow up question: it also seems unclear whether the familiar's touch of the target is bundled into the ability. Can it use its two actions to move twice and the touch part is bundled in, or does it only get to move once because if it does not have its second action available to touch the target, the spell will not be delivered?

3> It's our understanding that a familiar cannot normally use actions with the Manipulate trait, unless it has the Manual Dexterity ability. Not sure if this applies to Spell Delivery or not. If the master uses Spell Delivery to deliver a touch spell with the Manipulate trait, does the familiar need to have Manual Dexterity to do so? That seems a bit onerous without knowing the rationale (maybe only the master needs Manipulate?) but we want to make the right RAW ruling (or RAI if RAW is still unclear to everyone).

We could almost bundle this entire question into one scenario if we find the right spell. The master casts Gouging Claw to use with Spell Delivery. It's a 2-action cantrip with both the Attack and Manipulate traits. Can a familiar deliver a spell with the Attack trait despite its lack of Strikes? (We think probably?) Can it deliver a spell with the Manipulate trait if the familiar does not have Manual Dexterity? Does the master still have an action left, or did they have to use it to command the familiar to deliver the spell? And finally, can the familiar move twice and still touch the target, or is touching the target always a 1-action cost of its two actions?

Thank you so much for reading all that and for your kind and patient responses. We mean well, we're just not too good at PF2e yet.