| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Always down to throw my hat in for the slow heat death of spell slots!
I'm of the opinion you only want this if you hate casters and are unable to imagine a necromancer without without melee weapons.
The only example I know is it's some action RPGs and I don't think paizo should be beholden to them.
Plus I love prepared casting so...
Edit: I do wish they were wisdom it Cha though, heck even con. Fact is I don't see an internal dirge or even a lot of what the necromancer does in this play test, as int based.
And I'd die happy finally getting a cha prepared caster.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spell slots serve an important role in the class design. They give you a resource to spend when setup is undesirable, inadvisable, or just plain difficult on your action economy. I would not want them taken away.
Right now, there's a meaningful dichotomy between most of the grave spells (which need setup or take time to have significant effects besides summoning thralls) and slotted spells (which have a more immediate effect)—and the limited amount of slots emphasizes resource management in a good way. I want it to stay that way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like the spellcasting and it's pretty important for the class fantasy if you ask me. If anything I would say the power of these abilities would only marginally increase without the spellcasting. Thralls having actions is a table consideration and I would want them to remain like this even if they removed spellcasting, otherwise this class will be a headache
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not a necromancer if it can't cast spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The classic necromancer is a spellcaster, so while I see the desire I understand the default. Hopefully the minions have good archetype support.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm all for spelless necromancer and melee necromancers--just not as the default. Make them into class archetypes or feat packages.
No need to kill a classic and raise it as something unrecognizable for the few who want that, when we can have it as an alternative so that we all have something fun to play with.
I'm all for spelless necromancer and melee necromancers--just not as the default. Make them into class archetypes or feat packages.
No need to kill a classic and raise it as something unrecognizable for the few who want that, when we can have it as an alternative so that we all have something fun to play with.
I'm in this boat. I want a necromancer to feel "wizard-y" to some extent, but I think a way to make it fit a less wizard-y fantasy as an alternative would be really neat and I do want that for people
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm of the opinion you only want this if you hate casters and are unable to imagine a necromancer without without melee weapons.
The only example I know is it's some action RPGs and I don't think paizo should be beholden to them.
Plus I love prepared casting so...
Edit: I do wish they were wisdom it Cha though, heck even con. Fact is I don't see an internal dirge or even a lot of what the necromancer does in this play test, as int based.
And I'd die happy finally getting a cha prepared caster.
I'm one of those who strongly dislikes the current spell slot system. But this system still exists in PF2e and goes away from it for a specific caster class now will only go away from the concept of be a traditional spell caster. IMO necromancers still classify as a "traditional" spell caster.
IMO for it a better integration with class features and feats with spell slots is enought to improve it as a caster (or just give another spell slot per rank because the current level of focus spells aren't enought to justify the sacrifice of a spell slot per rank when we already have classes with strong focus spells and that also have 3 slots per rank like Bards and Druids).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be open to a spell slot progression like Magus/Summoner depending on what we get for it. Maybe a tad more at 3 slots per two highest rank spells instead of 2.
Or maybe just have options that allow us to sacrifice/"spell blend" slots for other benefits or to activate other abilities. You know those grave spells that need an existing thrall? Maybe if you didn't want to sac a thrall for whatever reason, you can instead sac a low rank spell slot in place of a thrall to cast the grave spell directly from yourself.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think 2 slot per level is taking up all that much power budget at all, and frankly I think y'all should consider that something like getting an undead companion is already covered by the undead master at the same efficiency as it would appear in the class itself. The class will still keep the core thrall mechanic no matter what changes occur
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think 2 slot per level is taking up all that much power budget at all, and frankly I think y'all should consider that something like getting an undead companion is already covered by the undead master at the same efficiency as it would appear in the class itself. The class will still keep the core thrall mechanic no matter what changes occurDid they get rid of the evil alignment requirement for this though?
Well, with the remaster Evil alignment isn't a thing anymore, right? Might be changed to Unholy requirement instead but I don't think Paizo has commented on it at all yet.
Just ignore evil requirement. Necromancers aren't unholy there's no need to switch the evil trait to unholy for undead master.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Frankly, a "Graveknight" class archetype that changes the Necromancer to bounded spellcasting and martial proficiencies seems almost trivial to implement. Other than proficiencies, the class already supports this quite well. Add in a few more archetype feats and abilities that support melee a bit more and you're done.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
WE TOTALLY NEED A GRABE KNIGTH ARCHETYPE OH MY GOSH!
On a side note why is it only 2 slots per Spell Rank, is Create Thrall that powerful? I look at Psychic and ask, bro why do you only have 2 slots per Spell Rank too?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really feel like the desire for a Diablo necromancer or world if Warcraft death knight is starting to take away from the necromancer as it currently is.
A class archetype I guess would be the best solution.
Well, they already have better than average Focus point recovery.
I would love a "souls for spell slots" mechanic.
Make Life Tap a class feature, let it cost only one action, and have it grant a spell slot.
Maybe a maximum level slot, for all the hassle involved.
Obviously this would need some limits, but if these were the only slots available, the limits could be very liberal.
Another way to make a Necromancer with magical abilities but without spell slots would be a Focus spell that allows access to Summoning spells, and let's the summoned creatures use all of their Spells.
Giving the Necromancer way to trade Focus points/sacrifices to complete Rituals or to create magic items could also give them magic, without spell slots.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think 2 slot per level is taking up all that much power budget at all, and frankly I think y'all should consider that something like getting an undead companion is already covered by the undead master at the same efficiency as it would appear in the class itself. The class will still keep the core thrall mechanic no matter what changes occurSince the thrall mechanic is what is stopping it being an actual necromancer, I hope not.
I'm very confused by what you actually want from this class. The thrall mechanic IS this class, it's staying.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, it absolutely is a necromancer - it just doesn't fit what you specifically want, but it does for plenty of others.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm very confused by what you actually want from this class. The thrall mechanic IS this class, it's staying.I don't think 2 slot per level is taking up all that much power budget at all, and frankly I think y'all should consider that something like getting an undead companion is already covered by the undead master at the same efficiency as it would appear in the class itself. The class will still keep the core thrall mechanic no matter what changes occurSince the thrall mechanic is what is stopping it being an actual necromancer, I hope not.How is 'I want minion based class that uses the reanimated bodies of the dead' confusing?
But your right this class is not a necromancer, and should not be called such.
Calling this a necromancer is like calling a limbless torso in a box a fighter.
The thralls ARE your reanimated undead minions. I definitely agree that we should be able to do more with them, but dismissing them entirely and saying that they're the main reason why this isn't a necromancer is just baffling. Thralls are your disposable undead cannon fodder, via focus spells you can summon stronger thralls or hordes of them and using your spell slots you can summon proper undead minions as well.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thralls ARE your reanimated undead minions. I definitely agree that we should be able to do more with them, but dismissing them entirely and saying that they're the main reason why this isn't a necromancer is just baffling. Thralls are your disposable undead cannon fodder, via focus spells you can summon stronger thralls or hordes of them and using your spell slots you can summon proper undead minions as well.No, they are summoned nothings that have the undead tag for...reasons, they are not reanimated bodies. The character didn't have to slit a few peasants throats in a ritual circle or rob a few graveyards for corpses to create said thralls, and those thralls aren't life hating abominations, they won't struggle to get free to go devour anything they can catch.
1) I'm sorry but having to do all that sounds miserable to play and an incredibly disruptive requirement to use your base class ability
2) I repeat what I said in another thread: I fail to see what the crucial difference between Create Thrall and Summon Undead is that one is indisputably necromancy but the other isn't when they both do the exact same thing. Literally the only difference is that your thralls are weaker and cheaper than the undead raised by that spell.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thralls ARE your reanimated undead minions. I definitely agree that we should be able to do more with them, but dismissing them entirely and saying that they're the main reason why this isn't a necromancer is just baffling. Thralls are your disposable undead cannon fodder, via focus spells you can summon stronger thralls or hordes of them and using your spell slots you can summon proper undead minions as well.No, they are summoned nothings that have the undead tag for...reasons, they are not reanimated bodies. The character didn't have to slit a few peasants throats in a ritual circle or rob a few graveyards for corpses to create said thralls, and those thralls aren't life hating abominations, they won't struggle to get free to go devour anything they can catch.1) I'm sorry but having to do all that sounds miserable to play and an incredibly disruptive requirement to use your base class ability
2) I repeat what I said in another thread: I fail to see what the crucial difference between Create Thrall and Summon Undead is that one is indisputably necromancy but the other isn't when they both do the exact same thing. Literally the only difference is that your thralls are weaker and cheaper than the undead raised by that spell.1) which is why an actual Necromancer is hard to play, doesn't mean this thrall based thing is worthy of the name.
2) I don't like that spell either.
I don't think anything remotely playable is going to satisfy you then
'Actual' necromancers were those who communed with the dead and evolved from early shamanistic practices, and mostly summoned spirits to commune with or provide guidance and what have you.
The version that is being talked about being wanted (and that this class absolutely successfully emulates) is far more modern and isn't the 'only' way to do necromancy.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, they are summoned nothings that have the undead tag for...reasons, they are not reanimated bodies. The character didn't have to slit a few peasants throats in a ritual circle or rob a few graveyards for corpses to create said thralls, and those thralls aren't life hating abominations, they won't struggle to get free to go devour anything they can catch.The thralls ARE your reanimated undead minions. I definitely agree that we should be able to do more with them, but dismissing them entirely and saying that they're the main reason why this isn't a necromancer is just baffling. Thralls are your disposable undead cannon fodder, via focus spells you can summon stronger thralls or hordes of them and using your spell slots you can summon proper undead minions as well.I'm very confused by what you actually want from this class. The thrall mechanic IS this class, it's staying.I don't think 2 slot per level is taking up all that much power budget at all, and frankly I think y'all should consider that something like getting an undead companion is already covered by the undead master at the same efficiency as it would appear in the class itself. The class will still keep the core thrall mechanic no matter what changes occurSince the thrall mechanic is what is stopping it being an actual necromancer, I hope not.How is 'I want minion based class that uses the reanimated bodies of the dead' confusing?
But your right this class is not a necromancer, and should not be called such.
Calling this a necromancer is like calling a limbless torso in a box a fighter.
... You know, I guess this take is less surprising when I remember that you were there arguing at the onset of 2e that champion reactions were morally reprehensible and complaining you don't like 2e combat...
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
How do summoned Thralls that stand still doing nothing, emulate animated bodies?'Actual' necromancers were those who communed with the dead and evolved from early shamanistic practices, and mostly summoned spirits to commune with or provide guidance and what have you.
The version that is being talked about being wanted (and that this class absolutely successfully emulates) is far more modern and isn't the 'only' way to do necromancy.
You are using necromantic energies to summon creatures made of bone, flesh, or ectoplasm/spiritual essence - all things that are derived from the history of necromancers in both folklore, myth, and modern depictions.
Again, you are talking about one interpretation - not the only one. Paizo is carving out a bespoke niche for their named version, and its one that is clearly inspired by all kinds of necromancers, and is not more right or wrong than any other kind.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
After the first encounter or two of the day, should be plenty of bodies lying around, just summon some and torture some spirits into them and off we go.I don't think anything remotely playable is going to satisfy you thenThe thralls ARE your reanimated undead minions. I definitely agree that we should be able to do more with them, but dismissing them entirely and saying that they're the main reason why this isn't a necromancer is just baffling. Thralls are your disposable undead cannon fodder, via focus spells you can summon stronger thralls or hordes of them and using your spell slots you can summon proper undead minions as well.No, they are summoned nothings that have the undead tag for...reasons, they are not reanimated bodies. The character didn't have to slit a few peasants throats in a ritual circle or rob a few graveyards for corpses to create said thralls, and those thralls aren't life hating abominations, they won't struggle to get free to go devour anything they can catch.1) I'm sorry but having to do all that sounds miserable to play and an incredibly disruptive requirement to use your base class ability
2) I repeat what I said in another thread: I fail to see what the crucial difference between Create Thrall and Summon Undead is that one is indisputably necromancy but the other isn't when they both do the exact same thing. Literally the only difference is that your thralls are weaker and cheaper than the undead raised by that spell.1) which is why an actual Necromancer is hard to play, doesn't mean this thrall based thing is worthy of the name.
2) I don't like that spell either.
...wouldn't that mean that the Necromancer lacks all its core features in "the first encounter or two of the day"? Again, that just sounds miserable to play in practice.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm... personally no longer concerned with your opinion of what the 'true' Necromancer play fantasy should look like.
For everyone else, there is more discussion to be had regarding what is and isn't core to the fantasy of being a Necromancer in the thread, "Is the name Necromancer the right name for this class" (which I direct you to not just because I recently put in a small essay about the very topic of whether or not the thrall mechanic can deliver the Necromancer fantasy desired by everyone)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*pruned wall of text*
...wouldn't that mean that the Necromancer lacks all its core features in "the first encounter or two of the day"? Again, that just sounds miserable to play in practice.
Mmm day might be to much, so have them sustainable/reanimatable over night, but yes a core feature would be reliant on having bodies available, which isn't much worse than having martial classes reliant on level appropriate equipment.
Hell you could have a necromancer that bought bodies before the event.
Except level appropriate equipment is permanent and doesn't become available to you AFTER the fight. What happens when your only encounter in the adventuring day is being held up by bandits on the road, is the Necromancers just useless that day unless they lug around 6 bulk per minion?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
They would still be a death aspected caster, so could do at least some casting to do damage/debuff, but should not be anywhere near a same level damage caster.Except level appropriate equipment is permanent and doesn't become available to you AFTER the fight. What happens when your only encounter in the adventuring day is being held up by bandits on the road, is the Necromancers just useless that day unless they lug around 6 bulk per minion?*pruned wall of text*
...wouldn't that mean that the Necromancer lacks all its core features in "the first encounter or two of the day"? Again, that just sounds miserable to play in practice.
Mmm day might be to much, so have them sustainable/reanimatable over night, but yes a core feature would be reliant on having bodies available, which isn't much worse than having martial classes reliant on level appropriate equipment.
Hell you could have a necromancer that bought bodies before the event.
I think we disagree not only on what this class should be, but on what is fun to play in a TTRPG on such a fundamental level that further discussion is pointless.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, it absolutely is a necromancer - it just doesn't fit what you specifically want, but it does for plenty of others.
I agree I saw a lot of complains about "but this necromancer is not a real necromancer because of..." but ignores that there's a lot of necromancers concept in pop culture and rarely they have a standard beyond "I cast 'dead' magic".
This necromancer is a necromancer that creates many of very simple yet very useful undeads direct from void energies to serve as weapons, tools and fuel for the spells.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This class is also the only one putting lots of disposable bodies on the battlefield and making use of them as its main thing.
And the biggest trope that fits is the undead horde of a necromancer.
The mechanics are just that and the playtest is here to help Paizo refine this to fit the trope as much as possible while still staying within the limits of the PF2 system.