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I'm less concerned generally about "one member of the party is going to be much better at healing themselves, and only themselves, out of combat" than I am about "every single character who hits people in order to do damage benefits from taking a specific level 2 archetype."
That there are options which are attractive alternatives to the "bonus damage" one makes me a little less concerned, TBH.
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It's not nearly as concerning as the archetype, I agree; it breaks a far less integral part of the game. But 1d8+d8/2lvls on yourself every round is out of line with every other available option. It needs a 10 minute cooldown.
This is especially noticeable at lower levels, when fewer healing options are online and a simple treat wounds check might have a 1 hour cooldown (no continual recovery!) and fail to bring you back to full.
The worst abuse case is a party of nothing but exemplars with scar of the survivor, since they can heal up after every combat in less than a minute without any investment in alternative means of healing. That's more than a little off. Sure, it's not something I'd think you'd /want/ to do, necessarily, but the fact you can bothers me.
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It's not nearly as concerning as the archetype, I agree; it breaks a far less integral part of the game. But 1d8+d8/2lvls on yourself every round is out of line with every other available option. It needs a 10 minute cooldown.
This is especially noticeable at lower levels, when fewer healing options are online and a simple treat wounds check might have a 1 hour cooldown (no continual recovery!) and fail to bring you back to full.
The worst abuse case is a party of nothing but exemplars with scar of the survivor, since they can heal up after every combat in less than a minute without any investment in alternative means of healing. That's more than a little off. Sure, it's not something I'd think you'd /want/ to do, necessarily, but the fact you can bothers me.
Healing yourself every turn means you dont use your others trascendence ikons, means also you spend 1 action every turn just to shift inmanence and other action on healing, so you wont contribute to combat at all.
If you are talking out of combat healing, its a nice thing to have but not a gamechanger ability, sure, if you have combat after combat with 1 minute pauses this healing become golden, but this is not something usual, at least in my experience.
Consider also that Scars inmanence is basically nothing, so you are paying a price for that healing action, wich btw i find really temathic with the class feel.
Victors Wreath and dedication is where the focus should go, those are the broken things on the class imo.
Cheers.
It's not nearly as concerning as the archetype, I agree; it breaks a far less integral part of the game. But 1d8+d8/2lvls on yourself every round is out of line with every other available option. It needs a 10 minute cooldown.
This is especially noticeable at lower levels, when fewer healing options are online and a simple treat wounds check might have a 1 hour cooldown (no continual recovery!) and fail to bring you back to full.
The worst abuse case is a party of nothing but exemplars with scar of the survivor, since they can heal up after every combat in less than a minute without any investment in alternative means of healing. That's more than a little off. Sure, it's not something I'd think you'd /want/ to do, necessarily, but the fact you can bothers me.
Although I largely agree with those who think out of combat healing isn't a big deal, it does seem like it's supposed to be one of the things that cuts down on the "buff like crazy and then charge through encounters" style of play prevalent in PF1. I.e., the duration of most buffs is not short enough that they'll expire by the time you're healed up and ready to move on. But if you can heal yourselves up to full in a couple rounds, then that style of play threatens to return...
So, while not a huge deal, I agree that this seems like something they should add a timer to.
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I'm not sure that "one character is able to heal themself, and only themself, especially quickly" is going to make parties go much faster between fights, since everybody else still will want to be healed up in before they go on to the next fight which is likely to take the normal amount of time.
I'm not sure that "one character is able to heal themself, and only themself, especially quickly" is going to make parties go much faster between fights, since everybody else still will want to be healed up in before they go on to the next fight which is likely to take the normal amount of time.
It can if they combo it with Spirit Link. There's no "only 1 link" limit, and because it's an R1 spell, it's super easy to buy in scroll form, and to activate via Trick Magic Item. You cannot multicast onto the same target, but an Exemplar can link up to all 3+ other PCs simultaneously and essentially become an HP dispenser.
The base R1 Spirit Link is 2 HP per turn, so that's 200 per 10min, which is a single cast.
That pretty much solves solves out of combat healing, and at a 10min duration, Spirit Link is actually a very great tool for self-healers like Exemplar to use as a prebuff.
Yeah, you wouldn't want a 10 minute cooldown because a normal exemplar juggling barrow's edge and scar of the survivor in order to repeatedly self-heal inside of combat seems like a reasonable perk of the class.
I'm not sure a ten minute cooldown is necessary. I think you'd get much the same result by linking transcendence to encounters, rather than a time limit. Include a sentence about how an exemplar's divine spark can only reach its full potential in high-stress situations, and is thus entirely or partially usable in encounter mode, and you're golden.
I thought about this, but a few transcendence effects have meaningful and less obviously problematic out of combat uses. Titan Breaker is good at breaking objects, for example, which is way more common out of combat than in combat. Although you didn't mention it, more immanence effects are useful out of combat, as well (most notably the +10ft speed one, though there are others)... and it'd be kind of weird for immanence to work out of combat and not transcendence, given how the class text is formatted.
A 10 minute cooldown is the bog standard rate limit for resourceless healing, so I don't know why exemplar isn't subject to it.
Yeah, you wouldn't want a 10 minute cooldown because a normal exemplar juggling barrow's edge and scar of the survivor in order to repeatedly self-heal inside of combat seems like a reasonable perk of the class.
This doesn't sound very good, regardless, so I don't think it's a loss. If you could've done the healing after combat instead, you've effectively wasted actions. Because of that, you don't want to heal with repeatedly heal with third actions unless you're in serious danger.
It's just inefficient action spend to repeatedly self-heal in this way. Getting each off once is probably a Heal spell's worth of healing or better across two turns; you are unlikely to need more than that, and should probably have to expend some kind of resource to be able to. A 10m cooldown on both (and a clear piece of rules text stating that barrow's edge only works on enemies) seems more than right.
There is a huge difference between focus spells or medicine—which require a ten minute refocus after to Regen resources, or take 10 minutes—and an ability that heals d8 (+ 1d8 heightened) ten times a minute. Versatile vials are also on a ten minute recharge.
Not every encounter day is 3 moderate encounters with as long as the party wants between encounters. Not every adventuring day ends when the party says it ends. That abstracts too far away from actual play. Time costs are very real in many actual play scenarios, including in several published APs.
The difference between 1 minute and 10 minutes is also immense for 10 minute buffs. Spending resources to heal in order to take multiple encounters while buffed is a common strategy. The exemplar's healing is the difference between spending a heal spell to continue with buffs running and not spending one.
A chirurgeon alchemist can use quick vials to infinitely heal using versatile vials. They even scale better than elixirs of life for a single level (at 4th level, a versatile vial heals 2d6s vs. 1d6 of the elixir of life. Literally in one level it becomes obsolete, but this one can be used infinitely while the other one has a coldown).
A chirurgeon alchemist can use quick vials to infinitely heal using versatile vials. They even scale better than elixirs of life for a single level (at 4th level, a versatile vial heals 2d6s vs. 1d6 of the elixir of life. Literally in one level it becomes obsolete, but this one can be used infinitely while the other one has a coldown).
...You are correct. I find this equally concerning, for what it's worth, but you are correct. This was already a worse problem elsewhere and I hadn't really noticed it because PC2 just hit Nethys. (I've only just started using demiplane to check new content instead when I need to, because some of the players in a Season of Ghosts game I'm GMing used stuff from the Tian Xia book.)
EDIT: No, wait, these have the coagulant trait. It's a 10m cooldown.
Chirurgeon has a 10 min per target cooldown, yeah.
And even at the very best single level, when the FV upgrade to 2d6 healing at L3, the Soothing Tonics will do way more via Fast Healing than the FV freebies. To the point that the FV healing is still a complete joke of a feature that outright wastes most of the few feature slots the Chirurgeon has. You might as well use the Chir FV healing out of combat, but all it does is *maybe* save you 10min if all the healing rolls end up being 2d6 away from full, and the party insists on topping off before continuing.
Even the upgrade to remove the cooldown for targets below 1/2 HP does not really end up changing anything in terms of usage / play. It's a useless feature at that level.
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in that immanence effects seem intended to give the Exemplar power exclusive to them, in order to put them on par with other martials. Gaining that from an archetype, let alone the full benefits just from the dedication feat, means allowing the combination of two different classes' defining features in a way very similar to dual-classing, and so the Exemplar archetype should probably offer no amount of immanence from ikons at all.
This is the most simple and efficient solution. Higher lvl feats could grants the immanence. But the lvl 2 should merely grant a Transcendence with a 1d4 round cooldown.
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For now I've made a ruling that the contents of WoI are banned from my table.
If Pathfinder 2E has hit the stage in an edition lifecycle where 'DLC book = power creep' then that will become my off-ramp for rulebooks. But we'll see how this shapes up.
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FWIW, it's really just this one thing that's egregious. The Animist and Exemplar are both excellent classes that really aren't any more powerful than any other class, and even the Mythic stuff (optional to begin with) isn't anywhere near what 1E was in terms of breaking the system.
Hardly power creep, imo.
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FWIW, it's really just this one thing that's egregious. The Animist and Exemplar are both excellent classes that really aren't any more powerful than any other class, and even the Mythic stuff (optional to begin with) isn't anywhere near what 1E was in terms of breaking the system.
Hardly power creep, imo.
Ehhh... I'm sure I'm not the only Alchemist player to notice that there's been some serious power creep in the alchemical items (like, a whole hecking lot). The sticky question is how much of that is on purpose as an indirect way to buff the Alchemist class.
Hard to say if it'll continue, but even HotW added some nutty things like weakness-adding bombs.
IMO, there is a worrying amount of steady powercreep. Things like Spellhearts are staples of every PC that can cast a spell, and they are significant power that once did not exist. That's the kind of power creep I'm most worried by.
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Alchemist definitely still needed the help, though. I'm glad that they got some proficiency rectifications in the Remaster (though I almost wish they scaled similar to a Martial, or got Legendary Class DC, depending on their chosen field), but now I'm confused as to how the class handles its alchemy rules, since they implemented some new feature that just has me confused as to how it interacts with what was there originally. I'm also unsure as to what sort of MCDs work with the class, since it seems like taking an alchemy-based one like Herbalist or Poisoner, you know, the ones you would expect would work great with the class, is worse than literally anything else to pick from.
Incidentally, there are still several things that other classes do that the Alchemist is worse at that I wish they were better at (such as Exemplar's Horn of Plenty being able to
"force-feed" allies from 60 feet away as a single action, or Fighters having better Bomb proficiency than, well, Bombers), but I can understand the difficulties behind them being created as mechanics for the Alchemist.
Things like Spellhearts are staples of every PC that can cast a spell, and they are significant power that once did not exist. That's the kind of power creep I'm most worried by.
I thought spellhearts were essentially reusable talismans used for giving non-casters access to select spells.
It has never even occurred to me to give them to spellcasters.
Things like Spellhearts are staples of every PC that can cast a spell, and they are significant power that once did not exist. That's the kind of power creep I'm most worried by.I thought spellhearts were essentially reusable talismans used for giving non-casters access to select spells.
It has never even occurred to me to give them to spellcasters.
They're a good source for Cantrips that are outside your Tradition. Though I'll admit I've only ever seen the Jolt Coil (it gives electric arc) and trinity geode (it gives scatter scree) in play. The others are mostly ignored.
Except of course the Phantasmal Doorknob, which is used by basically all martials that know it exists, though not for the spell (dazzled on crit no save is pretty sweet).
It has never even occurred to me to give them to spellcasters.
They're a cheap way for spellcasters to add cantrips, including ones they wouldn't otherwise have an easy way of getting. If there was one for Live Wire, it would basically be a must buy item with how overtuned that spell is.
The Activation of Spellhearts is Cast a Spell, which means that if you don't have a spellcasting feature in your class/archetype (and focus/innate spells don't count for that) you can't Activate the spellheart.Though I'd add that now even just spellcasting dedication counts as a spellcasting feature, no 'basic spellcasting' feat needed. Definitely. (probably...)
I believe it was stated that, to count as having a spellcasting feature, you need spell slots from either a main class, or a dedication. Cantrips are not spell slots.
That is also the case specifically for PFS.
The Activation of Spellhearts is Cast a Spell, which means that if you don't have a spellcasting feature in your class/archetype (and focus/innate spells don't count for that) you can't Activate the spellheart.Though I'd add that now even just spellcasting dedication counts as a spellcasting feature, no 'basic spellcasting' feat needed. Definitely. (probably...)I believe it was stated that, to count as having a spellcasting feature, you need spell slots from either a main class, or a dedication. Cantrips are not spell slots.
That is also the case specifically for PFS.
The class dedication feats are now what grant "Cast a Spell," even before / without taking the "basic spellcasting" archetype feat that provides the first 3 spell slots.
There are a fair few spellhearts that deserve a mention.
Clay Sphere is a low L spellheart that grants Gouging Claw (which is otherwise non-accessible for Occult/Divine), gives the weapon B/P/S variation, and upgrades your weapon's damage by one step for 2 turns. It's worth emphasizing that these items grant the cantrip for spellcasters of non-matching traditions, which is especially good for Divine/Occult casters with limited offense options. You can literally buy random daggers and load them with a variety of the low-cost spellhearts to keep a roster of scaling cantrips on-hand.
The other easy sell is the Warding Statuette, which provides the evergreen Shield cantrip, and anytime a weapon bearing it lands a hit (no spellcasting required), an adjacent friendly/you can be granted +1 status to AC. Considering that there are many times where people will spend 1A for a similar effect, getting that as an outright freebie is kinda amazing.
Other spellhearts should be looked at for the free armor passives, as they are not invested items, yet provide all manner of resistances. Including things as odd as resistance __ to "attacks by demons"
While very expensive by needing a 2A spellcast first, Lightweave Scarf's hit effect is just straight up 1 turn of confusion onto the foe if you land the Strike. No save. Talk about a wtf effect being put into a random, non-invested, magical bauble.
It genuinely is worth 2A if you're a martial confident in landing the hit, as no save confusion really is an effect on par (if not above) that a 2A spellcast.
Oh, almost forgot that Saurian Spike might be the only way to buy/equip a PC with something that outright grants scent as a sense. 30 ft imprecise --> 60 ft imprecise --> 60 ft precise scent. Huge wtf there.
Well silly me. I was under the impression that spellhearts allowed you to use the Cast a Spell action to activate the item, kind of like how a feat that grants you a once per innate day spell allows you to use the Cast a Spell action in order to activate the feat.
I never used Spellhearts much to begin with, but I probably got 2-3 characters that might need some adjustments.
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The Activation of Spellhearts is Cast a Spell, which means that if you don't have a spellcasting feature in your class/archetype (and focus/innate spells don't count for that) you can't Activate the spellheart.Though I'd add that now even just spellcasting dedication counts as a spellcasting feature, no 'basic spellcasting' feat needed. Definitely. (probably...)I believe it was stated that, to count as having a spellcasting feature, you need spell slots from either a main class, or a dedication. Cantrips are not spell slots.
That is also the case specifically for PFS.
The class dedication feats are now what grant "Cast a Spell," even before / without taking the "basic spellcasting" archetype feat that provides the first 3 spell slots.
But you can't use Cast a Spell to activate an item without a spellcasting feature, per GM Core:
If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” you have to use the same actions as casting the spell to Activate the Item, unless noted otherwise. This happens when the item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class feature to Activate an Item with this activation. Refer to the spell’s stat block to determine which actions you must spend to Activate the Item to cast the spell. You essentially go through the same process you normally do to cast the spell but draw the energy for the spell from the magic item. All the normal traits of the spell apply when you cast it by Activating an Item.
You don't get a spellcasting class feature from the dedication, so that it grants Cast a Spell itself doesn't really do much except let you use the cantrips.
By the time that you can afford multiple spellhearts, you're at the point when cantrips have stopped being a noticeable source of power.
Some of those passives are pretty spicy sounding, though.
On the other hand, actually activating the lightweave scarf requires you to cast an incapacitation spell that is well below the level of enemies you are facing, so the actual spell is an action tax that is unlikely to do anything.
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On the other hand, actually activating the lightweave scarf requires you to cast an incapacitation spell that is well below the level of enemies you are facing, so the actual spell is an action tax that is unlikely to do anything.You just use it as a no-save AoE dazzled, you don't care about the save or incap trait or anything. It's a really nice item, and remains so way past its level
What's even more ironic is that spellhearts can suffer the "box of wands" issue due to how silly gp costs scale.
Why would anyone buy an L15 L-Scarf to get that 2nd (incap) spell p day, when that 5,500 gp could by *TEN* of the L8 L-Scarfs for 10 daily attempts at the hit-confusion?
(That's what yall invented the Invested trait for, Paizo! If an item is p day and doesn't have Invested, yall need to really think about putting some other safety-limiter in there, c'mon.)
On the other hand, actually activating the lightweave scarf requires you to cast an incapacitation spell that is well below the level of enemies you are facing, so the actual spell is an action tax that is unlikely to do anything.You just use it as a no-save AoE dazzled, you don't care about the save or incap trait or anything. It's a really nice item, and remains so way past its level
I didn't notice that part of the spells. On the other hand, the dazzled condition is handed out like candy these days, so I still don't see the big deal, honestly. Two actions to dazzle a small area until people move is not a big deal.
My players got to level 15 in strength of thousands and never once came even close to the investment cap.
My players got to level 15 in strength of thousands and never once came even close to the investment cap.Were you very stingy with magic items or did they not care about them? Because getting to 10 is trivial at about level 10 (and you have to start choosing at this point). Armor, skill items, defensive things, it builds up fast.
I was ultra generous with wealth, but they just weren't that interested in most invested items.
I went back and reviewed and one character actually did hit 10! I never noticed. The others were sitting at around six: Staff, armor, ring of resist, movement item, skill item 1, skill item 2
They had other items they sold, and consumables that they never touched.
My players got to level 15 in strength of thousands and never once came even close to the investment cap.
Wild, 3 of my Ruby Phoenix players are capped and two of those have Incredible Investiture. Course, one of those has like five rings ("Power Glove" as he calls it).
But it definitely feels easy to hit the cap at high level, especially if you're either using what you find or keeping mid level items around because they're still useful.
they just weren't that interested in most invested items.Well, there you go. I've looked at my 10th lvl PFS char: 4 skill items (with other great bonuses of course), 1 focus item, armor (with 5th skill rune), cantrip ring, resistance ring, wayfinder - that's 9. And I'd fill on resistance rings up to 3-4 I think :D And I think I had several future plans on the remaining slot.
StaffStaves don't take investment as most of held items though.
Dang I could have sworn staves were invested. Shows what blind spots GMing gives you!
By the time that you can afford multiple spellhearts, you're at the point when cantrips have stopped being a noticeable source of power.
Some of those passives are pretty spicy sounding, though.
Spellhearts are still decent items for non-casters. In many cases, the passive benefit (on armor mostly) is almost like an extra rune (even at a lower numerical impact); and one or two others (like the beastmaster's sigil granting a +1 on Athletics checks to Trip on a melee weapon) can provide some targeted improvements for certain characters.
Non-casters will probably not want to invest in the higher level versions, however.
Dang I could have sworn staves were invested. Shows what blind spots GMing gives you!they just weren't that interested in most invested items.Well, there you go. I've looked at my 10th lvl PFS char: 4 skill items (with other great bonuses of course), 1 focus item, armor (with 5th skill rune), cantrip ring, resistance ring, wayfinder - that's 9. And I'd fill on resistance rings up to 3-4 I think :D And I think I had several future plans on the remaining slot.
StaffStaves don't take investment as most of held items though.
You don't need to invest a staff, but you do need to prepare it each day you want to use it.
I don’t know about power creep, but there is definitely some mission creep in this thread. Anyone have anything further to say about the Exemplar Archetype?!?