Speculating on the 9 Mythic Destinies

[Pronate11]

Michael Sayre when talking about why the upcoming class is called the guardian and not something else wrote:

"aegis" isn't appropriate for reasons that will become apparent

Assuming that the new class doesn't explode when it touches Zeus's shield, I have a feeling the word "aegis" is going to be used somewhere in WotI, and a mythic destiny seems very likely. something similar to "Adamantine Aegis", "Celestial Aegis", or "Eternal Aegis" are my best guesses.

[exequiel759]

I think "Aegis" is likely taken in the Exemplar as one of their...implements? (I don't remember the exact name they used). Likely as an ability or the name of the (implement) itself.

[Gobhaggo]

Personally, I don't think the Immortality is going the be an important benefit for Mythic-ness. Like that's a common benefit for reaching level 20 for some classes, even ressurective immortality.

[rainzax]

Ikons

[sophiechan]

Do you know guys is mythic will be levels 1-20 or post level 20 a la epic destinies in D&D4E?

[PossibleCabbage]

sophiechan wrote:

Do you know guys is mythic will be levels 1-20 or post level 20 a la epic destinies in D&D4E?

In 1e it was a parallel advancement track, which makes sense since "actual figures of myth" had a range of mythic deeds that defined them. Like in terms of the labors of Heracles "cleaning some stables" is less defining than "literally holding up the sky for a while."

I see no reason to expect it won't remain a parallel advancement track.

[Perpdepog]

I swear we've had a dev chime in on this and say it wouldn't be 20+ leveling, but I'm not sure of where it was said.

[PossibleCabbage]

Perpdepog wrote:

I swear we've had a dev chime in on this and say it wouldn't be 20+ leveling, but I'm not sure of where it was said.

I mean, in terms of "being a system that people like and want to use" it's probably a good idea to make it relevant to more levels than just the very highest levels, which most campaigns won't spend a lot of time at anyway.

[sophiechan]

If they are bellow level 20 i will not use them, for me don't have any sense, I'm a level 5 archmage.... With this pf2 system really good balanced why they don't want to create content post level 20?

I'll try to adapt it or i will use pathfinder infinite mythic powers from manbearscientist.

[Calliope5431]

sophiechan wrote:

If they are bellow level 20 i will not use them, for me don't have any sense, I'm a level 5 archmage.... With this pf2 system really good balanced why they don't want to create content post level 20?

I'll try to adapt it or i will use pathfinder infinite mythic powers from manbearscientist.

I agree that some of that makes zero sense. However my guess is that like 1e they're additive power rather than replacement power. That is to say, it's possible they're not just replacement class feats that are balanced against existing ones. They might not be feats at all, or they might be significantly stronger than normal class feats, or they might be free feats (a la free archetype). That's basically what 1e mythic paths were - an advancement track that was tacked on to your existing class progression without making you literally level 25.

We don't know what the plan is. It's entirely possible that "archmage" is just an archetype you can take like anything else that doesn't boost your power at all compared to taking levels in wizard. In which case...I'd be disappointed and irritated. It's also possible that "archmage" is a template that functionally makes you higher level, even if it's not literally "you are now a level 21/22/23 character".

[Aenigma]

So the mythic power is not a post level 20 content? Sigh. I really wish the mythic power would let my wizard do truly mythic deeds, like: Raising an island from the bottom of the sea (just like what Aroden did) so that he would recreate the drowned Azlant once again! Or transporting thousands soldiers with one teleport spell so that he would conquer literally anywhere in the world! Or an outright planet-destroying spell, perhaps. But if it's a below level 20 content, that means my mythic wizard would not be able to do such things?

I really wish Paizo to publish post level 20 rules someday. I like the flavor of the mythic power, sure, but advancing beyond level 20 seems better I guess.

[keftiu]

I'd prefer a system where my Iblydosi hero-gods don't have to be level 25. One of them was literally just a magic lion in 1e - that's not the kind of threat that brawls with demon lords.

[Calliope5431]

Aenigma wrote:

So the mythic power is not a post level 20 content? Sigh. I really wish the mythic power would let my wizard do truly mythic deeds, like: Raising an island from the bottom of the sea (just like what Aroden did) so that he would recreate the drowned Azlant once again! Or transporting thousands soldiers with one teleport spell so that he would conquer literally anywhere in the world! Or an outright planet-destroying spell, perhaps. But if it's a below level 20 content, that means my mythic wizard would not be able to do such things?

I really wish Paizo to publish post level 20 rules someday. I like the flavor of the mythic power, sure, but advancing beyond level 20 seems better I guess.

Reminder that "post level 20" was also not a thing as of PF 1e.

You could stop time for 24 hours (mythic time stop) or blight a city with pestilence using mythic power (mythic contagion). At no point were you actually level 23.

That being said...I will be both disappointed and amused if demon lords, horsemen, and archdevils never actually get stats, but are merely referred to as "level 27 creatures" in flavor text despite rules for said creatures being nonexistent.

[Perpdepog]

I'm hopeful we'll be seeing some level 26-and-higher monsters in War of Immortals. We're only getting eight of them, which makes me think that they either need lots of room to explain how everything they can do works, which sounds fitting for 26 and up, or they're getting a load of lore as befits a super powerful creature, or both.

[Ezekieru]

Perpdepog wrote:

I swear we've had a dev chime in on this and say it wouldn't be 20+ leveling, but I'm not sure of where it was said.

Came straight out of Jason Bulmahn's mouth back in September, shortly after the WoI Playtest blog came out.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Mythic rules are categorically NOT an extension of the game past 20th level.

Link to the post found HERE!

[TriOmegaZero]

I applaud Paizo for focusing on more options for the current 1-20 instead of adding more levels and increasing the amount of effort to support all available play.

[The Raven Black]

I still wish an existing PF2 AP can be used with Mythic PCs without the GM having to rewrite all the encounters.

[Cori Marie]

I mean it can, they'll just steam roll encounters.

[Calliope5431]

Cori Marie wrote:

I mean it can, they'll just steam roll encounters.

Do we actually know that? Do we know whether or not mythic provides any mechanical benefit over and above standard play at all?

[Cori Marie]

I mean if it offers no benefit, it's not really doing what it is meant to do. Mythic has a very specific connotation in Pathfinder. I'd be extremely disappointed if it didn't live up to that.

[Calliope5431]

Cori Marie wrote:

I mean if it offers no benefit, it's not really doing what it is meant to do. Mythic has a very specific connotation in Pathfinder. I'd be extremely disappointed if it didn't live up to that.

Yep and I hope it does - just not sure if it will, at least for PCs. NPCs, maybe.

[PossibleCabbage]

Mythic is supposed to let you do things that a person at the same level cannot hope to do.

But it's much more likely to be something like "you get a 4th action with no conditions" than "you get extra numbers."

[Perpdepog]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Mythic is supposed to let you do things that a person at the same level cannot hope to do.

But it's much more likely to be something like "you get a 4th action with no conditions" than "you get extra numbers."

I'm not so sure of that. Or rather, I feel like it will be some of both, though this assumption is predicated on us getting statblocks for creatures higher than 25. Such enemies would be really hard to hit without some massaging of numbers, though that could also happen on the monsters' side rather than on a player-facing one.

[The Raven Black]

We do not need Mythic to get higher numbers. Just play at a higher level.

[Xenocrat]

The destinies could just give you relevant permanent abilities or activities that scale with your level and make you more dangerous and able to handle higher level threats. Effectively higher numbers, but not in all cases or against all enemy types.

The "fearsome apocalypse rider" might have a frightened/drained aura or strike that works with or reinforces existing sources of frightened.

The "undying eternal legend" might have resistances and condition ignoring stuff that lets him get pounded by high level enemies to draw heat from his mythic buddies fighting a normally deadly thing but not contribute much extra offense except through slow attrition against unusually large groups of lower level stuff.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's easy enough to give mythic a few numbers here and there, just create a new type of bonus "mythic bonus" to go with circumstance, item, status, etc. You don't need to make it always on or scale to the number of mythic ranks you get.

Like Mythic in PF1 involved spending a meta-currency in order to momentarily access greater power, and you got better at doing this as you advanced in rank. Like your basic Mythic mechanic from 1e was "you can spend a point to add your Mythic Surge number to the result of any roll after the results are known" which is something that would be pretty easy to reproduce in PF2.

[The Raven Black]

I would like to see some always on lesser power that enables a Mythic character to better hold their own against non-Mythic enemies and then truly exceptional Mythic abilities that only appear either when you spend a limited resource or when you face a Mythic encounter.

[Perpdepog]

The Raven Black wrote:

We do not need Mythic to get higher numbers. Just play at a higher level.

That only works for enemies up to levels 24-25, though. It'll become increasingly unlikely that the party will be able to hit the enemy at levels 26+, assuming enemy numbers keep increasing as levels go past that point. Someone's numbers would have to change, otherwise your grand, mythic fights at 26 and beyond are going to feel like those encounters in Age of Ashes people were unhappy about; impotently flailing to try and hit defenses that require a 16 or higher.

[The Raven Black]

Perpdepog wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

We do not need Mythic to get higher numbers. Just play at a higher level.

That only works for enemies up to levels 24-25, though. It'll become increasingly unlikely that the party will be able to hit the enemy at levels 26+, assuming enemy numbers keep increasing as levels go past that point. Someone's numbers would have to change, otherwise your grand, mythic fights at 26 and beyond are going to feel like those encounters in Age of Ashes people were unhappy about; impotently flailing to try and hit defenses that require a 16 or higher.

Is it that difficult to homebrew epic levels of 21+ ?

To be clear, I am not talking about new abilities here. Just the ramp up of existing ones.

[Arachnofiend]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Mythic is supposed to let you do things that a person at the same level cannot hope to do.

But it's much more likely to be something like "you get a 4th action with no conditions" than "you get extra numbers."

One of the things Mythic is supposed to let you do is "win a fight with Deskari", which does ask for additional numbers.

[Dragonchess Player]

This is speculation, but IMO PF2 mythic will be a power boost similar to SF1 mechs (just a sliding scale based on "mythic tiers" or whatever) but more balanced (because of PF2's tighter math) than PF1's version.

PF1's mythic was supposed to add half the individual's mythic tier to APL/CR. However, the execution varied wildly from that baseline.

[PossibleCabbage]

Arachnofiend wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Mythic is supposed to let you do things that a person at the same level cannot hope to do.

But it's much more likely to be something like "you get a 4th action with no conditions" than "you get extra numbers."

One of the things Mythic is supposed to let you do is "win a fight with Deskari", which does ask for additional numbers.

Sure, but that's only at the top end of levels/mythic tiers. You still need something mythic for 8th level 2nd tier mythic people to do, and it's not "fight the stuff they would be fighting in a few levels."

[Dexter Coffee]

I really want a power component myself.

If you extrapolate up and make a CR30 creature. You would need about a +10 (maybe +12) across the board, maybe way for spells to be considered higher ranks for incap on high level threats at very high levels, more hp, and few other smalls things to get it basically functional.

If it doesn't have one it's not the hardest to homebrew it but I'm no game designer. I don't near have enough free time to make and properly balance such a system for home games. My main desire is for something I can slot in at higher levels since they are not doing level above 20 as far as we know.

That being said I understand someone who doesn't care about the Level 20/10 MR playspace like I do and wants it to be good for Level 8/ MR 3 etc., which I don't care about at all myself.

I have said it before, but I still hope it has both in the end. One with and one without a power component stapled on so we can all be reasonably satisfied.

[Pronate11]

Paizocon keynote speech: Each mythic player will get a calling, which is the basis of their mythic power, such as the Sage and the guardian, and work like free architype except they also give you mythic proficiency allowing you to add higher numbers to your rolls. At higher levels, You unlock mythic destinies, such as prophesized monarch for your king author needs. Mythic threats "don't change the math scaling", but do have very powerful abilities that makes them much stronger than non mythic threats. Whether they go to levels 26+ is yet to be seen, but I would assume so if they are adding mythic proficiency.

[Perpdepog]

Wait is Paizocon this weekend?

[Saedar]

Perpdepog wrote:

Wait is Paizocon this weekend?

You just missed the keynote.

[Perpdepog]

Dang, time really has been slipping away from me badly lately. I could have sworn that was next week.

[TriOmegaZero]

I only knew because Memorial Day weekend. PaizoCon has been on the same weekend as Phoenix Fan Fusion for a decade almost. Made it difficult to support both.

[Pronate11]

More Paizocon stuff: Mythic callings are levels 1-10 and give you mythic abilities, including making you very hard to kill. Mythic destinies are level 11-20, and are all ways to make you immortal. The archfiend mythic destiny is mentioned and we have art for it. There is mythic equipment, and mythic spells you cast with mythic powers+ normal spell slots. There are templates to turn any monster mythic, as well as multiple specific monster statblocks.

[Perpdepog]

That's a cool-sounding system. It's like they're mashing the old PF1E mythic and Owlcat's mythic together and trying to keep the best bits of both.

[Saedar]

What they've described sounds pretty close to what I was wanting. Incredibly hyped. Doesn't hurt that Michael Sayre always looks and sounds like he's hitting on the camera and it makes me feel loved. ;)

[Iron_Matt17]

Pronate11 wrote:

More Paizocon stuff: Mythic callings are levels 1-10 and give you mythic abilities, including making you very hard to kill. Mythic destinies are level 11-20, and are all ways to make you immortal. The archfiend mythic destiny is mentioned and we have art for it. There is mythic equipment, and mythic spells you cast with mythic powers+ normal spell slots. There are templates to turn any monster mythic, as well as multiple specific monster statblocks.

Intriguing… Where did you hear this info?

[Calliope5431]

I have no real feelings towards mythic callings, since they don't seem to actually add anything narratively and are just vaguely themed numbers for the sake of numbers - but we'll see when they come out. Very hyped for mythic destinies, though. Those seem great!

I do hope that there will be level 26+ stuff though. Since the alternative of just providing GMs with new ways to make level 10/mythic rank 3 chimeras would be sad and feel like a missed opportunity, in my opinion.

[exequiel759]

Wait, are they calling one of the mythic paths guardian? Wouldn't that be troublesome since we are going to get a class with that same name?

[Saedar]

exequiel759 wrote:

Wait, are they calling one of the mythic paths guardian? Wouldn't that be troublesome since we are going to get a class with that same name?

I think it was one of the "Callings" but yeah. Unpleasant naming collisions.

[TriOmegaZero]

Now you can be a Guardian squared.

[WWHsmackdown]

Oh wow, I'm surprised that much feat space is being dedicated to mythic rules. That's gonna be a good number of pages, neat!

[PossibleCabbage]

Mythic Destinies are apparently "all the possible ways for you to be immortal". Mythic Callings are "what starts you down this path."

[Michael Sayre]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Now you can be a Guardian squared.

It's "Guardian's Calling", so you'd be a guardian with the Guardian's Calling, which isn't quite a winter witch (winter witch) / winter witch.

[Bad Voice Acting]

That's not a witch, that's my wife!