I'm playing a fighter. I'm a bit tired of the optimized two-hand trip build with knockdown.
What are some other interesting somewhat optimized fighter builds?
I have a real problem playing a character that performs poorly due to obviously bad feat or tactical choices. But there has to be a few builds that work somewhat well other than the obvious alpha trip build.
Are there any good two-weapon builds?
I've heard of some quality forced movement builds.
Has anyone tried a dual falcata two-weapon fighter? Or would that be far better as a ranger?
I've played so many trip characters at this point with monks, fighters, and barbs that I would like to give some new at least somewhat decent strategy a shot.
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I don't have the stats and whatnot for it but I once played an incredibly fun Leshy Fighter with Grasping Reach, Lunge, plus a Battle Axe in order to wield the Battle Axe in two hands and give it 10 ft Reach and then use the remarkably good Lunge specific Attack that gives you another 5 ft of Reach to grant you a WHOPPING thirty-six squares around your person in which you can make Lunge attacks during your turn and 22 squares around you that you can use AoOReactive Strike against. Sure, it's a two-handed d6 Weapon at that point but you're a FIGHTER and unless you fail to invest in Str properly or are fighting exclusively +2-+5 PL creatures you're going to land crits on enemies every three of four attacks.
I only played that character twice in a one-shot (two-shot, but whatever) and I had an absolute blast with him, sure his lower damage dice at d6 was very aggressively mid but Fighter Accuracy, Crit Spec bonuses, and the sheer tactical advantages it provided was just awesome with the upside being that even with ranged foes about I could simply hide behind cover and break LoS denying their actions and still reliably get Reactions against melee opponents who need to close the gap.
Outside the trip fighter I honestly have difficult to make recommendations.
Power Attack fighters are interesting due the high damage when you crits but it won't be much better than a Barbarian (except the fact that you don't need to rage and its limitations).
Two-weapons fighters are good but I have serious difficulties to recommend them over a 2-handed one.
Board and weapon fighters are pretty good tankers once the shields improves the survival a lot but doesn't looks like that the survivability is your greatest worry and they defensively the champions are better and paladins have a good dmg output for this type of char.
Maybe an Archer/Eldritch Archer could be an interesting alternative but honestly usually is more boring than the 2-handed trip fighter.
Maybe you can try the men-at-arms fighter focusing in use of Shifting rune and have a one-handed weapon with it, a 2-handed weapon with it, a bow and a board, focus in non-weapon specific feats except for those that you get with Flexibility feats. And play changing your weapon to adapt for each need and "role" you want/need to play each time.
A lunge reach build. I can pick up Whirlwind Strike. That might be interesting. They have Lunging Stance, then find a way to enlarge.
If you have the party for forced movement then you just take everything in the brutal shove line and start flinging people through berms, difficult terrain and snares. Not much to it.
The dual wield build is typically pick+light pick for the big fatal and pick crit spec damage without the accuracy loss that something like double falcata would incur. Either way, you're looking at a pair of weapon siphons and a stack of bombs for some bonus damage and element coverage. Blessed one gives you sustain without worrying about hands, alchemist can make you self sufficient on bombs, or whatever else your preference might be.
Fake champion fighter can be built for shields instead of tripping. You take the champ package 2-6 and take the extra shield reaction feats and paragon's guard.
Fake monk can start with an ancestral unarmed attack feat and run up the student of perfection/heavenseeker line before using adopted ancestry and half-elf heritage to meme your way into monk for flurry.
Archer grabs a gakgung, as many damage boosters as you can fit like gravity weapon/hunted shot, dread striker/sneak attack, point blank shot, etc and then runs around later with debilitating shot, bola ammo and bow crit spec to play the lockdown game. That's just trip fighter at range though.
There's the caveman build where you stack as much static damage as possible and swing with exacting and certain strike every round.
With FA you can get a dual-wield build going that uses Double Slice, FoB and Heaven's Thunder with Shortswords or Dogslicers for superb DPR. It is clunky early on, sadly.
You need to get a weapon familiarity feat with any of those weapons, Monastic Weaponry and Ancestral Weaponry to enable Heaven's Thunder with the weapons. On top, Ki Strike and Wholeness of Body are also really nice to have. Only Fighter feats you need are Double Slice and Agile Grace (Fearsome Brute is really nice too, though), so you can use both your FA and normal feat slots for the Monk and Jalmeri Heavenseeker feats.
Your turns are very modular. Turn one you get to HT, move and FoB with Ki Strike, turn 2 you can FoB if you want to move twice, either FoB + Strike or Double Slice if you only need to move once and both if you can spend all 3 actions attacking.
Very strong if you are starting close to level 10.
Thunder blades. Those turns are very tight, but I can see the damage being good.
Some interesting ideas.
I did notice that dual wield builds definitely encourage agile weapon in offhand.
I do not have the party for forced movement. So that would not work.
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It is very open ended and up to you.
Options are broadly
a) two handed weapon and lots of proning which you have done.
b) 2 weapons and lots of agile attacks
c) one handed. This is a control build though as it is all about grappling and restraining. So it doesn't do as much direct damage.
d) ranged
I can't say I'd like waiting till level 10 for a build to come together with Flurry of Blows for Heaven's Thunder. If I was doing that build I'd just be a monk.
A few suggestions:
For 2 weapon, I like Marshal as you get a damage bonus just from Dread Marshal Stance at level 4. You don't have to keep reapplying it. Intimidation is a useful skill anyway. So many other good things here.
For ranged you can go Eldritch Archer, but how about Snare Crafter instead. Your enemy needs to come to you so I feel and archer is the right way to snares.Plus it will be more tactically interesting.
Also perfectly happy to lean into a multiclass. Fighter -> Magus gives you a really good spell strike once per combat.
I can't say I'd like waiting till level 10 for a build to come together with Flurry of Blows for Heaven's Thunder. If I was doing that build I'd just be a monk.
By level 8 you can use Heaven's Thunder and Double Slice together and before that you are just a regular dual-wield Fighter. Also, just realized you can use Kamas instead and skip the Ancestral Weaponry feat completely. You loose the extra damage from backstabber, but that's not a big deal, also quite better than going for the shortsword.
Build pops off at 10 because you get some actual leeway to move on top of the amazing damage, but it is not like it is useless before that. Just a bit boring by FA standards.
Like, you can do:
Lvl 1 Double Slice
Lvl 2 Sudden Charge + Monk Dedication
Lvl 4 Monastic Weaponry + Whatever
Lvl 6 Jalmeri Heavenseeker (and Ki Strike) + Ancestral Weaponry
Lvl 8 Heaven's Thunder + Wholeness of Body
Lvl 10 Agile Grace + Flurry of Blows
Edit: You could change Ancestral Weaponry for Ki Rush and get the 3 focus points by level 8 if you want to go down the Kama route. I think that's worth it.
Also, another build that is pretty fun and quite effective is free hand Fighter with Wrestler dedication. With FA you can also sneak a Martial artist dedication there for extra damage. Point is to abuse Combat Grab, Whirling Throw and Suplex to keep an enemy either locked down or wherever you want them to be.
When the falcata was mentioned earlier I thought of a fighter with magus dedication for spell striker and hybrid study for dimensional assault. Then keep leaning into focus spells by getting psychic dedication with oscillating wave.
But I wasnt sure if you can use the amp version of ignition for a spell strike.
A spell strike with a falcata and amped ignition would crit for a lot of d12s.
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I've seen the one handed fighter build used to very good effect. The build is roughly:
Weapon: short sword is a really solid option because it's agile and the specialization effect works well with a fearsome rune and shatter defenses. But it works fine with other weapons too, like some bludgeoning weapon and a crushing rune.
1 Snagging Strike
2 Combat Grab
4 Good choices include Intimidating Strike and Sudden Charge
5 Maybe specialize in swords
6 Shatter Defenses works well with intimidating strike, your grabby feats, sword specialization, battle cry or a fearsome rune.
8 Blind-Fight
10 Disruptive Stance
12 Tactical Reflexes
14 (free space, maybe an archetype?)
16 (free space, maybe an archetype?)
18 (free space, maybe an archetype?)
20 Boundless Reprisals
So what's the general idea? Control! Move up to an enemy, snagging strike to make them off-guard, combat grab to keep them that way. If you already had enemies flanked, open with intimidating strike instead and perhaps move on to shatter defenses to make the frightened stick longer.
Disruptive Stance and Combat Grab are a nightmare for enemy casters. If they cast while grabbed you can attack them while they're off-guard and if you hit you disrupt the spell (not just on a crit). Even if they survive that, they still need a flat check to do manipulate while grabbed. They can't step back first, they're an action short to Escape, Step, and cast a typical spell.
I've seen this played in campaigns heavy in enemy casters/cult leaders and so many of them ended up "swooning" to death in the fighter's arms.
It's also a very party-friendly build, because you're dishing out a lot of debuffs to enemies and keeping them locked in place, so it's good for protecting back row casters and making enemies off-guard to rogues and ranged attackers.
So, not the highest damage, but the control is really strong.
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What are some other interesting somewhat optimized fighter builds?
As I know you like high level play more, you have the Fighter Mutagenist which is a beast at very high level:
Alchemist Dedication + Expert and Master Alchemy + Feral Mutagen (you need another low level feat but there are nearly none that are useful) + Monk Dedication + Ki Strike + Flurry of Blows + Martial Artist Dedication + Agile Grace (with FA you can even add Rogue Dedication for Opportune Backstab and Sneak Attack). You end up with a d12 Deadly d10 weapon + d10 Deadly d10 Agile Weapon (with Agile Grace you have reduced MAP on these ones) + Flurry of Blows so most of your damage is on your first action (and as such you can't be disrupted by anything). In terms of damage output, you are way above the curve. But you suffer from low AC so you're a bit of a glass canon.
Feral Mutagen looks pretty tough at high level. Wouldn't mind that with a monk.
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Feral Mutagen looks pretty tough at high level. Wouldn't mind that with a monk.
Clearly. Another asset of this build is that you can use the level 17 version for an extra +1 to attack during tough fight. But you can't produce it with your Alchemy so you need to buy/Craft it.
A lunge reach build. I can pick up Whirlwind Strike. That might be interesting. They have Lunging Stance, then find a way to enlarge.
Honestly is way more easier to do this with a Giant Barbarian.
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Honestly is way more easier to do this with a Giant Barbarian.
Or, if you want unbeatable reach, a Mutagenist. Reach Mutagenist is funny (and rather efficient at mid levels as enemies are triggering your Reactive Strikes rounds after rounds).
Now I have some time, the build I was talking about earlier (free hand Fighter + Wrestler) goes like this:
Lvl 1 Snagging Strike
Lvl 2 Combat Grab
Lvl 4 Wrestler dedication
Lvl 6 Suplex
Lvl 8 Whirling Throw
Lvl 10 Agile Grace
Better done with an ancestry with a D6 agile unarmed attack (like a Lizardfolk with Razor Claws) or with a Martial Artist dedication gotten through FA.
Suplex Function is capitalizing on those moments an enemy either refuses or fails to escape your grab, since you can use it as your first strike on your following turn (enemy is grabbed until the end of your turn). Whirling Throw combos extremely well with hazardous terrain and persistent spells, on top of being amazing at keeping melee enemies away from your backline. It is also amazing when the maps have holes and cliffs.
With FA you can try and get stuff like Stumbling Stance, Dazing Blow, Follow-up Strike, Strangle, Submission Hold and Spinebreaker. Last 2 are really good because they don't have any effect on failure or crit failure, so they are pretty safe to use regardless MAP.
Seen something really close to this in action (levels 15 to 18 only as Fighter, played until level 8 with a character that used these but as a Barbarian) and it works really, really well.
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What are some other interesting somewhat optimized fighter builds?As I know you like high level play more, you have the Fighter Mutagenist which is a beast at very high level:
Alchemist Dedication + Expert and Master Alchemy + Feral Mutagen (you need another low level feat but there are nearly none that are useful) + Monk Dedication + Ki Strike + Flurry of Blows + Martial Artist Dedication + Agile Grace (with FA you can even add Rogue Dedication for Opportune Backstab and Sneak Attack). You end up with a d12 Deadly d10 weapon + d10 Deadly d10 Agile Weapon (with Agile Grace you have reduced MAP on these ones) + Flurry of Blows so most of your damage is on your first action (and as such you can't be disrupted by anything). In terms of damage output, you are way above the curve. But you suffer from low AC so you're a bit of a glass canon.
What about Untamed Druid Dedication in place of Alchemist ?
I have not done the calculations, but I feel it would start earlier and bring more versatility, though likely less damage at the highest levels.
For 2 weapon, I like Marshal as you get a damage bonus just from Dread Marshal Stance at level 4. You don't have to keep reapplying it. Intimidation is a useful skill anyway. So many other good things here.
If you decide to go dual wield/intimidate, then you might consider hobgoblin for remorseless lash/agonizing rebuke.
...and, of course, it's going to depend on your party to a degree. Are you going to have anyone consistently handing out damage buffs? If so, then that cranks the value of dual wield builds (and other "lots of small attacks" builds) accordingly.
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What about Untamed Druid Dedication in place of Alchemist ?I have not done the calculations, but I feel it would start earlier and bring more versatility, though likely less damage at the highest levels.
Wild Druid Dedication, especially without Free Archetype, is very random. You need to be level 4 for it to start, then at level 5 you don't get Master proficiency and have to wait for level 8 to get it, then at level 11 you can no more improve your Battle Forms, you finally get new ones at level 16 but you can't improve them at level 17+. So, overall, it's a complete mess. It's better with Free Archetype, especially at low level, but still rather messy.
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Someone on Reddit recently suggested a Fighter using a Rooting, Greater Crushing, Grievous Bo Staff, preferably with Lunging Stance. Crit enemies at 15 ft (including Reactive Strikes), knocking them back 15 ft, immobilizing them and making them Enfeebled 2 and Clumsy 2.
A lunge reach build. I can pick up Whirlwind Strike. That might be interesting. They have Lunging Stance, then find a way to enlarge.Honestly is way more easier to do this with a Giant Barbarian.
Yeah, I think the draw of the Reach fighter is that you get to make the most reactive strikes and they are the most accurate reactive strikes. Whirlwind is a thing you might take if you're already invested in reach games, but the fighter's real ace here is Tactical (formerly Combat) Reflexes.
Double Slice Fighter with Dual Light Picks and the Assassin archetype is nasty as all get out-- especially in any encounter where you can Mark for Death prior to hostilities being engaged.
I really want to switch to ranger and do a falcata dual wield build. That looks like it might do some crazy damage.
It's hard to do anything particularly interesting if you've already done a trip two-hander build, a starlit span, and two-hander Inexorable Iron magus as well as a giant and dragon barbarian.
What two weapon fighting build can equal those damage hammer builds? I'm theorycrafting to get an idea and maybe the ranger flurry falcata build could do something nasty.
Fighter doesn't seem great at two-weapon fighting.
If we're talking about your basic d12 weapon giant barbarian, dual pick is about even with it while performing better at 11+ (when doubling rings upgrade), against resistances (because double slice helps bypass it), has better damage type coverage with weapon siphons adding extra types and has no rage action tax.
If we're talking about your basic d12 weapon giant barbarian, dual pick is about even with it while performing better at 11+ (when doubling rings upgrade), against resistances (because double slice helps bypass it), has better damage type coverage with weapon siphons adding extra types and has no rage action tax.
I was thinking more end game when you reach the point you're only -4 on all your attacks. Which ends up being a +36/+34/+32 to hit with Masterful Hunter Flurry upgrade.
Whereas the fighter ends up +38/+33/+28.
Barb would end up +36/+31/+26.
Past the first attack, the high level ranger gets a better chance to hit when racking up attacks.
Ah ok i was wondering how to get to master proficiency with weapons like the falcata but just realized it was fighter's advanced weapon training that you can pick up at level 12 through archtype that lets you pick swords and treat all swords as martial weapons.
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Ah ok i was wondering how to get to master proficiency with weapons like the falcata but just realized it was fighter's advanced weapon training that you can pick up at level 12 through archtype that lets you pick swords and treat all swords as martial weapons.
I'm not worried about that. My DM will let me use Unconventional Weaponry with the Falcata.
Mathematically, at level 17 if you stack double slice, agile grace, haste and archetype twin takedown on the double pick fighter, they'll be about equivalent to a double falcata ranger using the same but with archetype double slice. At 18, impossible flurry ranger pulls ahead a tiny bit. Assuming your goal is to just press the strike button as many times as possible, the ranger will finally do it a little better than anyone else at 18.
Turns out flurry of blows + twin takedown will perform slightly better than double slicing on the flurry ranger. You might also manage to squeeze out slightly more damage using Tamchal Chakrams instead (d6, agile, deadly d6), though they are effectively the same outside of higher level or extreme AC opponents.
Turns out flurry of blows + twin takedown will perform slightly better than double slicing on the flurry ranger. You might also manage to squeeze out slightly more damage using Tamchal Chakrams instead (d6, agile, deadly d6), though they are effectively the same outside of higher level or extreme AC opponents.
Both have Flourish, though.
Both have Flourish, though.
That's what I get for thinking it might be fun to check without thinking it through all the way. In that case double slice falcata is probably the way to go until level 18 where impossible flurry chakrams outperform them.
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Most action compression stuff gets the Flourish trait. Mostly just focus spells (or actual spells) get around it.
The Tamchal Chakram is a nice weapon and can be thrown.
Fighter doesn't seem great at two-weapon fighting.
Level 1: Double Slice,
10: Agile Grace, Certain StrikeLevel 14: Two-Weapon Flurry, Desperate Finisher
Level 16: Graceful Poise
So plenty of space for generic good things like Blind Fight, Savage Critical,
Lunge plus Lunging Stance or Twin Parry plus Twinned Defense. Plenty of space to get more things from archetypes.
Fighter doesn't seem great at two-weapon fighting.Level 1: Double Slice,
10: Agile Grace, Certain Strike
Level 14: Two-Weapon Flurry, Desperate FinisherSo plenty of space for generic good things like Blind Fight, Savage Critical,
Lunge plus Lunging Stance or Twin Parry plus Twinned Defense. Plenty of space to get more things from archetypes.
It seems like Double Slice doesn't hit as hard as a two-handed weapon or work as well with Reactive Strike. A two-handed weapon with Reactive Strike hits harder than a one-handed weapon.
Wish they had a feat to let two-hand fighters use both weapons for Reactive Strike.
That would be very strong if it was low level.
My understanding on the ranger is that if you want to really push the high-level dual-wield attack spam damage in a practical way, you need someone else in the party who can feed you actions. You need to start out both within range and having hunted prey, and it can be a bit tricky to arrange.
Admittedly, using throwable weapons and going into dual-weapon warrior to be able to pull some of your shenanigans at range helps with that, but having an ally who can reposition you is still useful.
Flurry Ranger also reacts really well to both precision increases (like Heroism) or damage increases (like Stoke the Heart), no other class can take more advantage of those than a Flurry Ranger due to the amount of hits with an actual chance of hitting they can make a turn.
Until high levels they are not that impressive without that support, sadly. They also suffer the most from the action cost of Hunt Prey.
Then maybe they benefit more from reactions that allow them to get into position more than reactive strike?
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Honestly, I think there's a lot of hype around the Flurry Ranger for not much. It is only competitive at level 19+ while Hasted... This is just a bad joke.
Flurry Edge needs a buff to be competitive. Especially before level 17. Overall, Ranger's Edges need a buff even if Precision is quite playable.
I'm still baffled that Rogue got more relevant changes in the remaster than Ranger.
Honestly the fighter is such a strong class you could almost just pick your feat choices at random and still have a character that functions well as long as you wield a weapon that matches your (also randomly selected) weapon group.
The bar for making an effective DPR machine is pretty low here.
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I feel ranger's problem is that the way enemies scale doesn't gel nicely with hunt prey action economy.
The common wisdom is that it's better to scale up encounter difficulty by adding more monsters rather than making a solo monster tougher. Because the math of the system gets more painful when there's a big gap between levels. So PFS scenarios for example tend to scale for extra players by adding extra monsters. And this is also advice that GMs often get when they ask how to adjust adventure paths for five or six players.
But this is not so good for rangers. If there are more enemies then they need to hunt prey more. Also, more players tends to mean that everyone is focus-firing more on the same enemy. So either you fight the same enemy as the rest of the party (and have to hunt prey again soon) or you go deal with one enemy while the rest of the party focus fires down other enemies. Of course rangers have trouble with stronger solo enemies in the same way as everyone else.
As a GM, if there was a ranger in the party and I had to scale up enemies, I'd consider giving the enemies a lot more HP instead of raising the level or amount of enemies.
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Hunt Prey is not the Ranger problem as they have compression actions based on it (Twin Takedown and Hunted Shot). Reducing the number of times you have to Hunt Prey is just giving them more third actions, so nothing interesting. The problem is that the Edges are not competitive enough against the Fighter +2 or the Barbarian Rage damage.
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Honestly the fighter is such a strong class you could almost just pick your feat choices at random and still have a character that functions well as long as you wield a weapon that matches your (also randomly selected) weapon group.
The bar for making an effective DPR machine is pretty low here.
Not really. I've seen a sword and board and a two-weapon fighter in play and the the two-hander fighter is really the only one that keeps up with the other powerful DPS classes like the rogue and barbarian.
I've played a flurry ranger. They do a lot of damage. Problem with the flurry ranger is blow through damage attacking the same target. I had to have the ranger go after targets solo to maximize my DPS or they would often blow right through the creature having it dead by the 2nd or 3rd attack unable to change targets due to the Hunt Prey action tax to make the ability work.
Two-weapon fighter's weapons do less damage due to the lower damage die even with the better chance to hit due to Reactive Strike being such a major part of the fighter's DPS as they level up. So maximizing Reactive Strike is more important for the fighter than the main round hits. That's what causes their DPS to spike high is when the Reactive Strike's start going off. The fighter has no real damage booster during their main hits, so getting as many hits with the big hit bonus is what sets their DPS high. The Reactive Strikes at full BAB with a two-handed weapon really set them apart.
That's why it is hard for me to make any fighter other than a big 2-hander fighter. I have to force my mind to accept suboptimal damage to play a different class fantasy because any fighting style other than big two-hander really doesn't maximize the fighter's abilities.
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That's why it is hard for me to make any fighter other than a big 2-hander fighter. I have to force my mind to accept suboptimal damage to play a different class fantasy because any fighting style other than big two-hander really doesn't maximize the fighter's abilities.
Well, the build I gave you outdamages 2-hander Fighter easily and strongly changes the fantasy. Well, there's the issue of it being available only at level 16 but you always tell me you play high levels.
You can work around difficulty getting reaction attacks off with ranged reprisal off a champion archetype with their reaction attack, any sources of reach improvement, an ally with amp message, etc. Getting at least one reaction off each turn shouldn't be a problem even limited to 5ft innate reach.
Getting at least one reaction off each turn shouldn't be a problem even limited to 5ft innate reach.
I've seen many players stating that reactions were easy to get when on the other hand I find them rather hard to get. Reactive Strike will be triggered at most 20% of the time unless you have someone setting it up for you or crazy reach, Champion's Reaction are more common but still not happening half of the time. The only reaction that happens more than it doesn't is Opportune Backstab as it's really easy to trigger (without costing other player's actions as not everyone wants to syphon their Focus Point on Amp Message).
Reaction play is really limited if no one sets things up for you (or it doesn't improve your damage output if you are the one setting it up for the party).
Honestly the fighter is such a strong class you could almost just pick your feat choices at random and still have a character that functions well as long as you wield a weapon that matches your (also randomly selected) weapon group.
The bar for making an effective DPR machine is pretty low here.
Yes there is a lot of space in fighter builds as only a few of the feats are required and they just have more feats, but there are some necessary feats for your fighting style or you really aren't moving above the base damage. You might think your fighter is OK but it is not compared to what it could be.
I've seen a sword and board and a two-weapon fighter in play and the the two-hander fighter is really the only one that keeps up with the other powerful DPS classes like the rogue and barbarian.
Then you aren't doing your two weapon fighter right.
The two handed fighter is doing around 25% more damage per hit, but the two weapon fighter is landing more hits because of the reduced MAP and because he can use quickened better.The Reactive Strikes at full BAB with a two-handed weapon really set them apart.
That's why it is hard for me to make any fighter other than a big 2-hander fighter. I have to force my mind to accept suboptimal damage to play a different class fantasy because any fighting style other than big two-hander really doesn't maximize the fighter's abilities.
Yep the extra zero MAP attacks are important, but you don't always get offered them, and when you do the other fighters get them as well - just at less damage per hit.