So Level 9 Rogue Resilient... Is it suppose to see this oppressively strong? I had heard it was a mistake but I can not find anything to confirm this but 3rd hand accounts, if anyone has posts from the Devs abou it being such a link would be mroe then welcomed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, we are still able to assume that it is a mistake that will get fixed eventually. There just isn't any evidence to support that assumption.
But since when have assumptions ever needed evidence?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't call it oppressively overpowered. The Rogue's fortitude progression is still bad. It's not entirely unprecedented either, given the fighter has a lighter version with Bravery.
I'm not saying it couldn't be a copy-paste error, but I don't think it's something in urgent need of fixing.
I wouldn't call it oppressively overpowered. The Rogue's fortitude progression is still bad. It's not entirely unprecedented either, given the fighter has a lighter version with Bravery.
I'm not saying it couldn't be a copy-paste error, but I don't think it's something in urgent need of fixing.
Not oppressively overpowered. I would like to highlight your example of the Fighter's Bravery feature; the fighter only bumps will saves versus fear effects.
Rogue Resilience bumps all fortitude saves. So now the rogue gets to be a capable damage dealer, martial weapon proficient, THE skill monkey, AND the ability to bump all saving throws? I won't call it super oppressive, just that it seems a bit much.
That Rogues and Fighters are ridiculously strong in PF2 seems to have been a design goal.
THE skill monkey,
Hey! Investigator... exists...
THE skill monkey,Hey! Investigator... exists...
Well clearly the fact that rogues got this unnecessary improvement means they're going to work a miracle on the Investigator for PC2, right???
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We hope so...
Investigators can bump all crit fails into crit successes, but to compensate they drop all crit successes into crit fails.
...which can be good if you're fighting something that's a fair bit higher level than you.
Not so great if you're being swarmed by rats
(I assume the suggestion was made with humor, but it is a fun thought experiment) And thus we get a class taking voluntary flaws in all 3 save stats, that never, ever wants to use a finesse weapon as a finesse weapon, but only can use finesse weapons with their key ability. Also, every 5 levels they beg their GM to only give them 3 boosts.
So Level 9 Rogue Resilient... Is it suppose to see this oppressively strong?
...Are you being serious or are you just taking the piss?
Let's compare a few things, shall we...
Rogue:
Lv. 9 Fortitude saves increases to expert. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Barbarian:
Lv. 7 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Lv. 13(!)Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take.
Fighter/Champion:
Lv. 9 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Ranger:
Lv. 11 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Magus/Thaumaturge:
Lv. 15(!) Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.
Swashbucklers don't get mastery at Fortitude, but they get mastery at will saves. If only at lv. 17.
Oh and Investigators don't get to be masters at Fortitude saves (and only masters at Reflex saves instead of legends). They get a consolidation prize at 17 th level though...
"Will saves increases to legendary. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success. When you roll a critical failure on a Will save, you get a failure instead. When you fail a Will save against a damaging effect, you take half damage."
And Monks... Monks chose their own saves.
Soo... Rogue is "oppressively strong" how again?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So Level 9 Rogue Resilient... Is it suppose to see this oppressively strong?...Are you being serious or are you just taking the piss?
Let's compare a few things, shall we...
Rogue:
Lv. 9 Fortitude saves increases to expert. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Barbarian:
Lv. 7 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Lv. 13(!)Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take.
Fighter/Champion:
Lv. 9 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Ranger:
Lv. 11 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Magus/Thaumaturge:
Lv. 15(!) Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Swashbucklers don't get mastery at Fortitude, but they get mastery at will saves. If only at lv. 17.
Oh and Investigators don't get to be masters at Fortitude saves (and only masters at Reflex saves instead of legends). They get a consolidation prize at 17 th level though...
"Will saves increases to legendary. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success. When you roll a critical failure on a Will save, you get a failure instead. When you fail a Will save against a damaging effect, you take half damage."
And Monks... Monks chose their own saves.
Soo... Rogue is "oppressively strong" how again?
Just looking at fort progressions misses the point.
1. No other published class gets "when you rolled a success, you get a crit success instead" at expert. (Including the CRB rogue, who otherwise had the exact same save progression as in player core.)
2. Rogues already had an aggregate save progression on par with other martials like the barbarian, despite being an intentionally more fragile class to balance their high damage and skill utility. (Two saves at expert to start, one save go master at 7th, third save to expert, master save to legendary at 13th or 15th, secondary save to master at 15th to 17th.)
3. No other published class gets the crit success thing on all saves. If rogues were otherwise behind on their save progression, like never getting a legendary saving throw, this abnormality might read as intentional, but they get a legendary save at the earliest point any class can.
Now, does this make rogues insanely overpowered? No. But it completely ignores the design principles of every published class (remastered or otherwise) and boosts the staying power of the most powerful classes which was meant be balanced by being a glass cannon. It absolutely comes off as an unintentional copy/paste error, particularly when you consider how inconsistent the name conventions are on the save progression class features. And it is a buff to a class that didn't need it.
You can choose to let it slide or not, but it is pretty obvious why people object to it.
which was meant be balanced by being a glass cannon
This is the only part of the post I disagree with. They're a little squishier than some of their contemporaries, but arguably in a better spot than a lot of post-CRB martials, especially those that rely on non-defensive secondary stats (like the Inventor, Magus, Investigator, and Thaumaturge).
The rogue is pretty clearly middle of the road here.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the Expert but with the juggernaut type effect makes a lot of sense of the Rogue as a "Luck" type character. A lot of traps and hazards do target fortitude and I think it is very on brand that Rogues tend to either be fine from such effects, or they are in big trouble.
|
So Level 9 Rogue Resilient... Is it suppose to see this oppressively strong?...Are you being serious or are you just taking the piss?
Let's compare a few things, shall we...
Rogue:
Lv. 9 Fortitude saves increases to expert. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Barbarian:
Lv. 7 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Lv. 13(!)Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take.
Fighter/Champion:
Lv. 9 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Ranger:
Lv. 11 Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Magus/Thaumaturge:
Lv. 15(!) Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a success on a Fortitude save, you get a critical success instead.Swashbucklers don't get mastery at Fortitude, but they get mastery at will saves. If only at lv. 17.
Oh and Investigators don't get to be masters at Fortitude saves (and only masters at Reflex saves instead of legends). They get a consolidation prize at 17 th level though...
"Will saves increases to legendary. When you roll a success on a Will save, you get a critical success. When you roll a critical failure on a Will save, you get a failure instead. When you fail a Will save against a damaging effect, you take half damage."
And Monks... Monks chose their own saves.
Soo... Rogue is "oppressively strong" how again?
Just looking at fort progressions misses the point.
1. No other published class gets "when you rolled a...
IIRC the naming conventions actually support the Rogue's feature being different from other classes.
which was meant be balanced by being a glass cannonThis is the only part of the post I disagree with. They're a little squishier than some of their contemporaries, but arguably in a better spot than a lot of post-CRB martials, especially those that rely on non-defensive secondary stats (like the Inventor, Magus, Investigator, and Thaumaturge).
The rogue is pretty clearly middle of the road here.
Well, all of those examples except the investigator have options that improve their durability. Armor Innovation, Inexorable Iron/Sparkling Targe, Amulet/Chalice implements. Plus some get native shield block access.
But really, I'd argue all those classes are trying to walk the same line as the rogue, with varying degrees of success. They all get martial accuracy with a damage enhancer, plus additional utility above your standard martial. The cost is 8 HP a level and no heavy armor, so you need to spend resources if you want to shore up defenses.
The only real difference is Thieves are less MAD than anyone without full plate, but Ruffians and Scoundrels suffer from the same woes as the post- CRB crowd.
Once the rogue gets Blank Slate, Legendary Sneak, Foil Senses, Sneak Savant, or Blank Slate and just the ability to cast a 4th level invis with a cloak and boots of elvenkind, they reach a point where you don't see them very much.
The thief rogue with all of that is the invisible man striking out of nowhere and then disappearing. It gets pretty insane.
If you cast something like disappearance on them, it gets even more insane.
Lower level they can have some soft defenses, higher level hard to even keep track of where they are or get a clean target on them if they build to not be seen.
Better fort saves not much of a concern given all the other stuff they can do. Sort of like adding a good paint job to an already amazing muscle car.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It gets pretty insane.
Yes and this is where Paizo stuffed up with the balancing of the Rogue Rackets. Scoundrel and Mastermind only give you an alternative way to get Off-Guard. But from mid level that is 99% automatic anyway without a roll. (Improved Invisibility, Dread Striker, Gang Up etc etc) so the Rackets Scoundrel and Mastermind become largely pointless. Given that Eldritch Trickster RAW doesn't work and is not a unique benefit anyway, there are only 2 Rogue Rackets mechanically worth taking Ruffian or Thief.
No other published class gets "when you rolled a success, you get a crit success instead" at expert.
I've heard it said otherwise. (Truly.)
EDIT: Though I have not yet been able to verify said claim to the contrary.
No other published class gets "when you rolled a success, you get a crit success instead" at expert.I've heard it said otherwise. (Truly.)
EDIT: Though I have not yet been able to verify said claim to the contrary.
"Published" class was important there. There was something like that with the shaman playtest, but that class isn't published yet and I wouldn't bet they hopped from there to changing one specific Player Core 1 class randomly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, if we want to bring unpublished classes into this, there is the Animist where Channeler's 9th level boon would increase Fortitude save proficiency to Master and give Will saves the critical success upgrade.
Many people also thought that was a typo to begin with... until the devs came out and stated outright that it was no mistake.
That's what I was referencing, I just forgot they renamed the shaman to animist.
Ah. That's right. I forgot the other base class that Animist is pulling from. Mostly I know it as coming from Medium since that is what I actually played.