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So, trying to figure out a rouge throwing dagger build, and I'm not finding much. I know there is the archer/fighter dedication feat parting shot, but that doesn't work with daggers. Any other way for a ranged character to get someone Off-guard so that you can sneak attack them that I'm not thinking of?
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As far as I am aware, there's really not much support for ranged sneak attacks beyond the Hide action...
The problem is that there's less way to make your targets Off-Guard at range than in melee in the lowest levels. But there's some workarounds specially in mid-levels.
For level 1-9 the only ways to grant Off-Guard to you is as already pointed by Taja, Hide behind something or in a low-light condition vs non-darkvision targets. If you are playing as halfling you can get Distracting Shadows to use your medium size allies to Hide Hide and then throw your daggers. Outside this you will need that your allies makes your target Off-Guard to you with maneuvers like Trip or Grapple that makes it Off-Guard to everyone.
Starting from level 10 you can workaround these limitations to a target using Precise Debilitations allowing you to put the target into Off-Guard condition until the end of your next turn allowing you to don't need to Hide every round that you want to attack with a Sneak Attack bonus.
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There are a few ways to get flatfooted at range.
Deception - Feint doesn't work. That is unless you take Grovelling Feint and your GM has an expansive interpretation of it.
Deception - Create a Diversion does work. That is not a bad option. But probably only useful once per target.
MasterMind Racket - Recall Knowledge works.
The best is probably Dread Striker and demoralise effects. Or an ally with Winter Sleet. But that is level 4 and up.
Then there are the team work ways. If you have a grappler or tripper in the party it is all set up for you.
My recommendation would be to play a Thief Racket Rogue maximise your Charisma and Deception so ability scores like 18 Dex, 16 Cha, 12 Wis and Con. Just accept that you are going to have to be in melee occasionally. Also rank your Intimidation skill. Then level 4 pick up Dread Striker. That will work well enough and should fit your concept.
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If you want a dagger throwing build, I'd look at Swashbuckler and not Rogue. Flying Blade allows you, right at level 1, to have a nice throwing build.
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Lets not forget Tumble Behind!
It was the core of a friends early level Thrower Rogue build.
Tumble through their space, get some distance out the other side, Sneak attack from range. Daggers have a pretty small range increment by default anyhow.
They eventually made heavy use of Dreadstriker and You're Next/Battlecry/Dazzling Display, etc.
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Thaumaturge - Divine Disharmony (L1)
Rogue/Swashbuckler - Tumble Behind (L1/L2)
- This goes well with a the Unbreakable Goblin Heritage and 'Bouncy Goblin' L1 feat that gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to these checks.Rogue - Dread Striker (L4)
- This will be the most reliable and earliest if you start rogue. There is a new Rare L5 reincarnation feat in the newest season of ghosts book called reincarnated ridiculer. The feat only makes people immune to your demoralize attempts if you critically fail, so it will be significantly more reliable from L5 onwards.Gunslinger/Pistol Phenom/Bullet Dancer - Pistol Twirl (L2/L2/L4)
- The Pistol Phenom dedication will give this to you right at L2.Water Kineticist - Winter Sleet (L4)
- Great for a kineticist because you can expand your aura, but it will remain at 10ft for others the entire game.So you could do something like a Unbreakable Goblin Heritgage, L1 ancestry feat with bouncy goblin. Grab Tumble Behind at L1 from rogue. L2 take the pistol phenom dedication so you can do a ranged feint as long as you hold a gun. L4 take dread striker from rogue so you can demoralize instead of feint (the -1 status penalty to enemy AC is better than feinting). L5 take the reincarnated ridiculer so you can re-apply demoralize.
Wouldn't they really suffer from missing Quick Draw at level 2? That means they'd need 2 actions to throw a dagger, and since Pistol Twirl requires a hand occupied by a gun they can't start with two out before needing to rearm.
If I had to build a throwing dagger Rogue I'd personally go:
Racket: Thief (we're sadly not going to be using Dex-to-Damage, but we want their Debilitations)
Lvl 1: Tumble Behind
Lvl 2: Quick Draw
Lvl 4: Dread Striker
Lvl 6: Juggler Dedication
Lvl 8: Lobbed Attack
Lvl 10: Precise Debilitations
After that you can build however you want. Until Dread Striker, you really need to make good use of the Rogue's Surprise Attack and you'll need to get close to use Tumble Behind to get consistent Sneak Attack damage off of your daggers. Once you have Dread Striker you have a lot more wiggle room, since you can Demoralize foes from 30ft away, but you still have Tumble Behind if they're immune and/or they pass.
Juggler is a fun little archetype (and if you have Free Archetype, you should take basically all the feats, adding Focused Juggler at 4 and Quick Juggler at 6), but Lobbed Attack is just another failsafe to get us one more off-guard if Demoralize fails and we want to stay at ranged.
At lvl 10 things get easier because Precise Debilitations means you only need to land 1 attack against an off-guard opponent to make them off-guard to anything until the end of your next turn, which will help immensely.
Hope it helps!
Lets not forget Tumble Behind!
It was the core of a friends early level Thrower Rogue build.
Tumble through their space, get some distance out the other side, Sneak attack from range. Daggers have a pretty small range increment by default anyhow.
They eventually made heavy use of Dreadstriker and You're Next/Battlecry/Dazzling Display, etc.
I would question how much tumble behind helps a throwing build.
You have to move in close, and it is considered difficult terrain when you pass through the enemy's space. So you might not be able to keep distance appropriate for ranged attack builds, and you might as well just melee at that point.
Admittedly, switch hitting is one of the key advantages of throwing builds, but I don't think it is the flavor they were looking for here.
Tumble Behind comes on line at level 1. It is a Reflex option as opposed to, Intimidation which targets Will, or Deception which targets Perception -the extra defence people often forget about.
Yes there are easier ways to inflict OffGuard eventually, but being at range gives you a defensive advatage as hopefully the enemy has to move. It costs him an action.
Most Rogues will have a high base move.
Lets not forget Tumble Behind!
It was the core of a friends early level Thrower Rogue build.
Tumble through their space, get some distance out the other side, Sneak attack from range. Daggers have a pretty small range increment by default anyhow.
They eventually made heavy use of Dreadstriker and You're Next/Battlecry/Dazzling Display, etc.
I would question how much tumble behind helps a throwing build.
You have to move in close, and it is considered difficult terrain when you pass through the enemy's space. So you might not be able to keep distance appropriate for ranged attack builds, and you might as well just melee at that point.
Admittedly, switch hitting is one of the key advantages of throwing builds, but I don't think it is the flavor they were looking for here.
The thing is though, VampByDaw specified throwing daggers. Those have a range of 20ft. They'll have to be close if they want to use them no matter what. And the only way I know to get more range would be Far Shot, but that'd require Ranger Dedication and level 8.
If you want to use thrown weapons and stay at actual range you basically need to use boomerangs, or at worst chakris (since we need stuff to be L bulk to work with a thrower's bandolier). Anything else is 30ft or less (with 20ft being far more common) which is essentially 1 Stride for most monsters.
If he will play a indoor dungeon crawling the distance wouldn't be a big problem.
But to do a good dagger thrower probably a flurry ranger is a better option IMO (daggers a agile weapons that will benefit from flurry pretty well and Far Shot helps pretty well in many situations). To keep the rogue like style maybe get rogue dedication with Sneak Attacker. But Swashbucker dedication + Flying Blade + Unbalancing Finisher/Dual Finisher is better IMO due the higher number of attacks and reduced MAP. This build allows to do up to 5 Strikes (or 6 if you are Quickened) per turn because Twin Takedown and Dual Finisher in a pretty low MAP (due flurry + agile) because they doesn't block each other.
If you want you can also get an aditional precision damage if you get rogue dedication via multitalented and Sneak Attacker.
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But to do a good dagger thrower probably a flurry ranger is a better option IMO
A Dagger throwing Flurry Ranger will deal negligible damage. Even the level -1 Skeleton Guard will be too hard to kill.
Flurry Ranger only works with maximum damage weapons. Otherwise, go Precision, the extra d8 on a d4 weapon nearly triple your damage.
This depends from target resistances and weakness.
A dagger thrower my get a pretty damage reduction if the target get resistance to piercing. But for other side if the target have fire weakness and you dagger have a fire rune you will trigger it many times.
Resistance and weakness are multiplied for in multi attack strategies. Also Twin Takedown is combined before apply the resistance and weakness. If you put multiple damage type runes into your weapons you can benefit from weakness more than affected by resistances.
In the end this becomes a zero sum game you maybe get extremely penalized if you face a ghost but you can make a pretty good damage if you are facing a white dragon with a multiple attacks using a fire rune.
From my experience, Create a Diversion and Dread Striker are the best ancestry agnostic ways for a ranged character to make someone Off-Guard outside of using level 4 Invisibility, Legendary Sneak, or something similar.
That said, the main reason to build a thrown weapon user over, say, a bow user from a mechanical standpoint is being able to fight in melee and range. Otherwise, using a bow is going to do more damage with a generally better range.
The reason I mention this is that your problem becomes less of one if you embrace the idea that you're rogue's earliest levels will probably be opening with Create a Diversion -> chucking a knife, followed by melee stabs when enemies close in; you'll have a pretty good time. Once Dread Striker kicks in, Demoralize because a hell of nasty debuff, and you probably have Confabulator to start taking the edge off of repreated Create a Diversions.
Also you can have your teammates and items help you. Trip and Grapple are already good actions; your friendly neighborhood melee martial will probably be twice as eager to use it as they already are if you're going to get something out of it, too. Smokesticks are a cheap way to be able to hide anywhere starting at level 1. Mist from an ally caster kicks in at level 3. Cover lets you hide and most maps probably have something you can at least duck behind
With thrown you get full strength to damage. Versus half for a bow. So probably only significant if you are planning on 18 or higher strength eventually. But then you probably won't have a high charisma as well. There are d6 thrown weapons like the light hammer. Even a d8 Chakram. It would be nice if there was a way to get a better thrown dagger aside from going cleric.
Lets not forget Tumble Behind!
It was the core of a friends early level Thrower Rogue build.
Tumble through their space, get some distance out the other side, Sneak attack from range. Daggers have a pretty small range increment by default anyhow.
They eventually made heavy use of Dreadstriker and You're Next/Battlecry/Dazzling Display, etc.
I would question how much tumble behind helps a throwing build.
You have to move in close, and it is considered difficult terrain when you pass through the enemy's space. So you might not be able to keep distance appropriate for ranged attack builds, and you might as well just melee at that point.
Admittedly, switch hitting is one of the key advantages of throwing builds, but I don't think it is the flavor they were looking for here.
The thing is though, VampByDaw specified throwing daggers. Those have a range of 20ft. They'll have to be close if they want to use them no matter what. And the only way I know to get more range would be Far Shot, but that'd require Ranger Dedication and level 8.
If you want to use thrown weapons and stay at actual range you basically need to use boomerangs, or at worst chakris (since we need stuff to be L bulk to work with a thrower's bandolier). Anything else is 30ft or less (with 20ft being far more common) which is essentially 1 Stride for most monsters.
Let's assume you go a straight line going from 20' range in from to 20' range behind the enemy. Let's assume one action for movement, since you want to attack twice.
That needs 50' movement speed when tumbling through a medium creature. (40' if you are just trying to stay at the range of regular daggers). Possible, but it needs some work.
I realize you aren't going full on ranged. I just imagine that you would want a hill giant to have to take a 5' step to reach you.
In the end this becomes a zero sum game you maybe get extremely penalized if you face a ghost but you can make a pretty good damage if you are facing a white dragon with a multiple attacks using a fire rune.
Well:
- Resistance to Piercing/Physical is common, Weakness to it is really rare.- You will solely deal piercing damage up to level 7.
So, you will face much more fights where you won't be able to deal damage than fights where you'll benefit from extra damage. You can't handwave the extreme difficulties Dex-based Flurry Rangers have against Resistances.
And then, I can bring the fact that it isn't a zero sum game as the gain when you face a weakness is equivalent in value to the loss when you face a resistance, but it is much lower in actual impact. Having a character being twice more efficient during a fight won't really change things much unless it's an Extreme encounter, but having a character unable to affect the enemy can very easily lead to a TPK if the encounter was Severe.
Anyway, with Daggers and starting at 14 Strength and going up to 20, a Precision Ranger outdamages a Flurry Ranger without having the issues with Resistances the Flurry Ranger brings. So my point sticks, go Precision with Dex-based builds.
In the end this becomes a zero sum game you maybe get extremely penalized if you face a ghost but you can make a pretty good damage if you are facing a white dragon with a multiple attacks using a fire rune.Well:
- Resistance to Piercing/Physical is common, Weakness to it is really rare.
- You will solely deal piercing damage up to level 7.
This is a wrong presumption.
Based in All Easytool Monsters. Between the level -1 and 10 there are 1765 in the table (currently there's a bit more monsters because the table is outdated but probably this won't change the proportion) and just 96 have piercing resistance and 22 vs physical except bludgeoning and 5 physical except slashing. This is less than 10%.
You have a point saying that this could be a problem before get a property rune but usually the resistance in these levels are about equal to monster level (more usually 5) and it's not a thing that would fully incapacitate a flurry ranger.
Also starting from level 8 this problem becomes a pretty minor when you get access to property runes. Because between levels 5-21 there are 59 monsters with pierce resistance + 24 vs physical except bludgeoning and 3 physical except slashing vs 65 with fire + 54 with cold + 11 with electricity weakness in a total of 1275 monsters.
So weakness aren't really more rare than resistances.
You also can workaround the resistance starting from level 3 using spellhearts like Flaming Star. This will hurt the action economy a bit but allows to exploit the target weakness pretty well in a flurry ranger with a reduced MAP.
I'm not 100% on why throwing daggers specifically, but if one goes Ruffian Rogue, that combines well with Dread Striker and opens up your weapon selection and build a whole lot. If you're alright with lower CHA, I'd embrace the STR DEX ruffian style and get extra STR damage on every hit, while leaving Demoralize and Feint as your sometimes/uncommon maneuvers.
Ruffian also means Critical Specialization effects are relevant from level 1. Even something like a thrown light hammer's prone-on-crit is a freebie that I almost forgot about. Pair that with a drop-ready whip for Agile ranged Trips/Strikes, and that sounds pretty great.
L1 Tumble Behind, L2 Brutal Beating, L4 Dread Striker.
If you get a single Returning rune, you don't really need the Thrower's Bandolier.
Acrobat Dedication also is amazing.
I think it's important to say that one reason for the Tumble Behind being so good is that Tumble is just a Stride Action with additional possibilities. There's no MAP nor once-per-foe issue like Demoralize. It's an odd one in that you need to be able to actually cross squares, while Demoralize is ranged, but I very much like the idea of using the maneuver that matches DEX over trying to also have good CHA.
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Acrobat providing the Expert, Master, Legendary skill Prof and improving Tumble Through via Tumbling Strike & Tumbling Opportunist is seriously synergistic with a Ruffian Rogue that wants to stay more mobile without sacrificing Sneak Attack via thrown weapons.
Dodge Away is another amazing Feat for 2nd or 3rd swings against you to get yourself some free stepping as well.
This is a wrong presumption.
96 with Piercing Resistance + 30 physical except Silver + 4 Physical except Cold Iron + 29 Physical except Adamantine + 22 Physical except Bludgeoning + 5 Physical except Slashing + a certain number of incorporeal creatures (I don't know why the number don't show anymore) = 186+ enemies on 1765 = 10.5% of enemies. I call that common, being close to useless 10% of the time is rather problematic.
But more importantly: Why does it even matter? Precision does more damage, is more adaptable and doesn't have this weakness. So... who cares about Flurry?
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That needs 50' movement speed when tumbling through a medium creature. (40' if you are just trying to stay at the range of regular daggers). Possible, but it needs some work.
30 is enough for medium creature.
Start 10 away,
Difficult terrain, so 10 through,
and then 10 out the otherside.
You need to start and end 20ft away, 10 works just as well in most circumstances. Sure, there is reach considersations, but you need to factor that in no matter what you do.
Most Rogues I've seen quickly get to 40ft move. Then they get trick magic item and get Longstrider/Tailwind and are a 50ft in mid levels. Easier for Swashbucklers. It is great action economy.
The thrown builds work. However there are easier and more reliable ways to get flatfooted in melee eg Gang Up and Dread Striker. If there is another PC in a lead position in melee then there is little point in not being in melee as a Rogue. You aren't that squishy. If the enemy attack you, then they are spreading damage around. Then there are power melee options that don't exist at range. Like Opportune Strike and Nimble Strike. In the end the thrown Rogue gets drawn into melee.
PF2 deliberately penalises ranged builds compared to melee. Which I agree with, as why would anyone ever risk melee if you could do the same damage from range? (Another thing D&D does badly) So thrown builds sort of get stuck half way in that there isn't much mechanical value in them so you may as well build for melee or ranged instead. So they become a useful option and not really a focus of builds.
I'd really like to see a couple of cool tricks that were exclusive to thrown builds.
This is a wrong presumption.96 with Piercing Resistance + 30 physical except Silver + 4 Physical except Cold Iron + 29 Physical except Adamantine + 22 Physical except Bludgeoning + 5 Physical except Slashing + a certain number of incorporeal creatures (I don't know why the number don't show anymore) = 186+ enemies on 1765 = 10.5% of enemies. I call that common, being close to useless 10% of the time is rather problematic.
But more importantly: Why does it even matter? Precision does more damage, is more adaptable and doesn't have this weakness. So... who cares about Flurry?
It's wrong to include Physical except Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine because they aren't dmg types. You can workaround easily with backup weapons and Doubling Rings (many non-two-handed weapons players does this to get benefit from precious materials) also incorporeal creatures are already included in the math and daggers are finesse weapons for purpose
But OK I forget about the All except... because the sheet isn't accounting them correctly so I used AoN now.
306 resistance vs piercing (including all + physical but except material exclusion (searched with the parameters: 'resistance.piercing:* NOT ("except adamantine" OR "except cold iron" OR "except silver")')
vs
284 weakness vs piercing or fire or cold or electricity (searched with the parameters: 'weakness.piercing:* OR weakness.fire:* OR weakness.cold:* OR weakness.electricity:*')
Still pretty balanced IMO.
Also rogue players needs to deal with 207 different creatures immune to precision damage (searched with the parameters: 'immunity:precision') and aren't really complaining that they becomes useless due this and the only way to workaround is getting a lvl 18 feat.
So using the same logic for rogues it's like saying something like "they are bad due many creature with precision damage immunity so it's better to play with a barbarian instead".
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Most Rogues I've seen quickly get to 40ft move. Then they get trick magic item and get Longstrider/Tailwind and are a 50ft in mid levels. Easier for Swashbucklers. It is great action economy.
I've seen versions of this a couple of times. How is a Rogue getting to 40 move without Longstrider and in a way that stacks with Longstrider? Excepting being an Elf (and maybe one other Ancestry?), the only way you can even get Fleet at 1st level is to be Human. For a lot of ancestries, it'll be 3rd level before they can get a 30-foot speed, which is not significantly earlier than Dread Striker.
Since there are instances where Juggler won't be allowed, like PFS, I'll offer this alternative build. Apologies if the names of any of these feats have changed in the Remaster (or gone away). Also, not saying this is a perfect build or better than others presented. Just another option, if your focus is to keep at range and boost the damage a little.
Ruffian Rogue
Lvl 1: You're Next
Lvl 2: Quick Draw (or Strong Arm)
Lvl 4: Dread Striker
Lvl 6: Strong Arm* (or Far Throw)
Lvl 8: Sly Striker
Lvl 10: Vicious Debilitations
* It's disappointing to have to spend a 6th level feat on Strong Arm, but if the goal is to stay at range and throw daggers, it lets you stay farther away. The alternative would be to get a returning rune and do away with Quick Draw, but as others have noted, that has damage implications later. Still, it would let you take Far Throw, which lets you stay 40 feet away with just a -1 penalty.
You're Next gives you an intimidate check as a reaction after you down an enemy, meaning that you can have rounds that look like:
Action 1 Demoralize
Action 2 Strike with Sneak Attack
Reaction You're Next (if you down them)
Action 3 Strike 2nd target with Sneak Attack
Sly Striker helps make up for the low base damage of a dagger and gives you a chance to do okay damage even when you don't have Sneak attack.
Vicious Debilitations can give them Weakness 5 to piercing, helping to make up for the low base damage of the weapon.
Up until 4th level, rely on Create a Diversion to try to get 1 sneak attack off per round.
From there on, Demoralize to get off-guard.
Ruffian (as others have mentioned) lets you have alternative weapons for a larger damage die or different damage types. It also gives bleed damage on a critical (with a dagger).
But you could easily swap for Thief and Precise Debilitations. Or Scoundrel and maybe Dazzling Display (Tactical Debilitations isn't as directly helpful) then Bloody Debilitations at 12 to help with overall damage.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Most Rogues I've seen quickly get to 40ft move. Then they get trick magic item and get Longstrider/Tailwind and are a 50ft in mid levels. Easier for Swashbucklers. It is great action economy.I've seen versions of this a couple of times. How is a Rogue getting to 40 move without Longstrider and in a way that stacks with Longstrider? Excepting being an Elf (and maybe one other Ancestry?), the only way you can even get Fleet at 1st level is to be Human. For a lot of ancestries, it'll be 3rd level before they can get a 30-foot speed, which is not significantly earlier than Dread Striker.
No one is all there at level 1. I'm talking a few levels in. But there are base 30ft move ancestries, elves can start with 35ft. Presumably the player taking such a build would prioritise speed. Then there is fleet for +5. An item bonus to speed from is Boots of Bounding at level 7. A status bonus from speed would be Trick Magic Item and a Wand of Longstrider but there are also things like a Bracelt of Dashing from level 3. If you are prepared to get into consumabless like Quicksilver Mutagen or Prey Mutagen you can be going from level 1. 50ft by level 3 is doable.
Everyone agrees that DreadStriker makes all this tumbling effort obsolete.
Also rogue players needs to deal with 207 different creatures immune to precision damage (searched with the parameters: 'immunity:precision') and aren't really complaining that they becomes useless due this and the only way to workaround is getting a lvl 18 feat.
So using the same logic for rogues it's like saying something like "they are bad due many creature with precision damage immunity so it's better to play with a barbarian instead".
You are conflating things that have nothing in common in terms of proportion. The Rogue losing Sneak Attack will deal around 50% of its damage. The d4 Flurry Ranger facing a level -1 Skeleton deals 0 damage. 0, nada, nothing. They can just get back to the inn and wait for their allies to deal with the fight.
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Most Rogues I've seen quickly get to 40ft move. Then they get trick magic item and get Longstrider/Tailwind and are a 50ft in mid levels. Easier for Swashbucklers. It is great action economy.I've seen versions of this a couple of times. How is a Rogue getting to 40 move without Longstrider and in a way that stacks with Longstrider? Excepting being an Elf (and maybe one other Ancestry?), the only way you can even get Fleet at 1st level is to be Human. For a lot of ancestries, it'll be 3rd level before they can get a 30-foot speed, which is not significantly earlier than Dread Striker.No one is all there at level 1. I'm talking a few levels in. But there are base 30ft move ancestries, elves can start with 35ft. Presumably the player taking such a build would prioritise speed. Then there is fleet for +5. An item bonus to speed from is Boots of Bounding at level 7. A status bonus from speed would be Trick Magic Item and a Wand of Longstrider but there are also things like a Bracelt of Dashing from level 3. If you are prepared to get into consumabless like Quicksilver Mutagen or Prey Mutagen you can be going from level 1. 50ft by level 3 is doable.
Everyone agrees that DreadStriker makes all this tumbling effort obsolete.
What I was questioning was the assertion that “most rogues” will have a 40 ft speed “quickly,” because I don’t see that happening at the tables I’m at. And Rogues don’t have any options for increasing speed that aren’t available to everyone else (unlike Swashbuckler). They do have more skill feats, making Trick Magic Item easier to fit into a build, but no Rogue specific speed boosts that I’m aware of. If I’m missing something, it would be good to know. Elf can do it.Human can get Fleet from the start. I’m going to assume that not every rogue is an elf or human (or whatever other 30-foot base ancestry exists). If you want to build for high speed, you have those options, but that doesn’t qualify as most rogues for me, since those aren’t options available to the vast majority of Ancestries.
Of the other things you listed, other than the boots, longstrider, and fleet, those aren’t (effectively) always on bonuses. Being possible to get 40 or 50 speed for a few rounds by third level isn’t the same as having a 40 or 50 speed by 3rd level. At 1st level, most rogues are going to have a 25 speed. Meaning tumble behind will only work for one action if they start their turn close to the enemy.
Scrolls of longstrider are available at level 1, a wand at 3rd. But that’s the 1-hour version. While it’s one of the few things that can effectively pre-buff, I wouldn’t consider that an always on bonus. Not until 5th level with a heightened version of the spell as a wand.
I would say that most rogues have a 25 or 30 base speed by the time they can take Dread Striker, since even humans, who can get fleet early, don’t ultimately have more options than anyone else. Elves, if you are building specifically for speed, can obviously do better, but they are the only ones I see getting to 40 by 3rd (without burning scrolls of 2nd level longstrider every day). Even another base 30 speed ancestry would only get to 35. At 5th, those numbers go up by 10 due to 8-hour longstrider wands. But at that point it’s a backup tactic to use against things you can’t intimidate.
Having a high base speed is a good thing in this system, so even if you stop using tumble behind, it’s only hurting you in that you can’t put those resources elsewhere (unless you retrain). If you want to build around tumble behind, it’s certainly possible to do so and should be fun. It’s just not, to me, something that should be assumed for the majority of rogues. Meaning that tumble behind may struggle to do what you need it to do, or at least require extra actions, at the low levels where you need it the most for a thrown weapon build.
You are conflating things that have nothing in common in terms of proportion. The Rogue losing Sneak Attack will deal around 50% of its damage. The d4 Flurry Ranger facing a level -1 Skeleton deals 0 damage. 0, nada, nothing. They can just get back to the inn and wait for their allies to deal with the fight.Also rogue players needs to deal with 207 different creatures immune to precision damage (searched with the parameters: 'immunity:precision') and aren't really complaining that they becomes useless due this and the only way to workaround is getting a lvl 18 feat.
So using the same logic for rogues it's like saying something like "they are bad due many creature with precision damage immunity so it's better to play with a barbarian instead".
Nothing prevents you to just punch them!
Everyone agrees that DreadStriker makes all this tumbling effort obsolete.
Is that a common outlook?
Tumble Through is a Stride that is allowed to let a Rogue "tag" foes with a non-MAP Acrobatics check. Especially if they stack speed, being able to both move and get a chance at off-guard in one action sounds really good.
Thrown weapons are all about continuing the assault when just outside of the foe's melee swing range, whether that's due to a narrow hall being plugged by a friendly Champion or because you can't reach the foe's squishy backline. For the plugged hall example, you're allowed to move through the ally, tumble, then move right back where you started. It's the same action cost of a Demoralize attempt, but with a more generally useful Skill and Rouge-friendly DEX. That's not bad for an option enabled by a L1 Feat.
Though Gang Up is plain amazing, there are situations it does not help (and it kinda encourages Rogues to not offer the mutual flank, which kinda stinks. Meanwhile, Tumbling Behind and standing there offers that nice mutual flank if desired).
Even with Brutal Beating for Fear on crit, it seems like the Rouge could not reliably depend upon Fear for their off-guard, and Tumbling Through would be rather a perfect complement to get sneak attack in those situations.
While a friendly alchemist with Dread Ampoules might be such a Rogue's best friend, I don't think the Rouge themself could fit the use of such bombs into their own build. And Demoralize is it's own action needing CHA and skill training investment, perhaps a skill feat or two.
You are thinking about Rogue in isolation not a Rogue in a party. Fear is common. Even ubiquitous.
You are thinking about Rogue in isolation not a Rogue in a party. Fear is common. Even ubiquitous.
I have had party members refuse alchemical items, refuse to fight with actual strategies, "because my character would think it's cheating." The GM had to talk with one of them who nearly died for refusing to run/playing the PC suicidal-stupid.
I have seen the Magus get Hasted, and do a *4* Strike turn against a foe with such high slash resist, the GM said "it's doing some damage, but it's like you are scratching it" when a second, non-slash resistant foe was nearby.
I don't know what the "average player skill" may be, but, I've got 3 Alchs and the idea of counting on party members to coordinate an essential debuff for my class feature, let alone talking with them in a manner that might change their spell or Feat selection, is beyond my ken.
To me, other PCs are forces of nature. They can be observed, their behavior studied and even predicted. But attempting to control or influence their path would be a mark of dire arrogance, and would only invite disaster.
There's a certain level of competency assumed in discussions like this. Once you go below that, all bets are off.
I, for once, quite agree with Trip. Not all groups are coordinated. And some people are just bad at tactics...
You even sometimes have external factors, like a player who can't accept that his character gets in any form of danger, triggering extreme defensive reactions like running away from fights the second they are targetted.
Not all groups are alike, clearly. And I feel that the tactically savvy party is far from ubiquitous. I've personally learned to play my characters in a vacuum.
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I think it’s both. If you’re with a group consistently, hopefully they’re eventually working as a group. Even in PFS, though, there are a lot of very good players. But it doesn’t hurt to have some options for things you can do on your own for when it’s a smaller table or there are less experienced/saavy players. This edition encourages teamwork, though, and I’ve run into quite a lot of characters in PFS built around doing things to make other characters more effective. And a lot of players who light up when a debuff or buff they have can combine with another character’s abilities.
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Everyone agrees that DreadStriker makes all this tumbling effort obsolete.
They're different attack vectors. Just because one is potentially more universally accessible than others doesn't mean I don't want options. I will always taken an option that me to target multiple types of saves to get my desired effect instead of just one.
I always wanted to stack the deck as much as possible.
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Though Gang Up is plain amazing, there are situations it does not help (and it kinda encourages Rogues to not offer the mutual flank, which kinda stinks. Meanwhile, Tumbling Behind and standing there offers that nice mutual flank if desired).
Just noticed this point. In the remaster, Gang Up now provides a flank to all of your allies as long as you are adjacent to a creature.
You and your allies harry an opponent in concert. You can flank an enemy if it’s within reach of both of you and an ally—you and your ally don’t have to be on opposite sides. This benefits your allies as well as you, but only if they’re flanking with you, not each other. The other requirements for flanking must still be met.
Bolding mine. Gang Up was already one of the better feats in the game, and somehow they decided to make it even better in the remaster. But I can understand skipping it on a thrown/ranged build.
Gang Up was already one of the better feats in the game, and somehow they decided to make it even better in the remaster
I certainly did a double take when I first read the new version.
Wow that Gang Up change is wild.
I wonder if they thought about Reach weapons, because... wow.
My sketched out Rogue is definitely holding onto that Whip as his Agile weapon, because, damn. Rogues can literally stand behind the Champion and every friend's got a flank.
Yikes, I honestly don't think that was a good idea. A "no reach weapons" rider could/should have been added to Gang Up as a trade for that crazy buff.
Reach weapons mean that the Rogue can offer a Gang Up flank for like half the foes on the field at once. That's just crazy.
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Yeah. It’s really hard to not just make Gang Up an automatic selection at 6th level. And yeah, I should have said as long as the enemy is in your reach, not adjacent. Having played a few games now with both the new Gang Up and Opportune Backstab, I have a hard time imagining taking alternatives to either of them (on a melee build). Opportune Backstab triggers more reliably than Reactive Strike or a Champion’s Reaction.