Scrolls that do decent blasting are not very expensive as you level. You take crafting and make lower level scrolls in batches of 4 that get progressively easier to make to have utility scrolls to preserve slots for blasting. Anyone can do this as lower level scrolls have a lower craft DC and thus don't require max intel to do.
Scrolls are progressively cheaper as you level.
Scrolls versus runes not really an either or scenario. Rune drops are super common. Even high level mooks use rune weapons. You can grab some no one else picks up and have a runed weapon for almost nothing.
You craft scrolls with minimum rank blasting to supplement blasting. Not like you always need to blast off a top rank spell when heightening doesn't greatly enhance the damage.
Chain lightning as the example used is provides the majority of its damage with the base rank. Heightening it adds at most 4d12 for a 10th level chain lightning. The cost-benefit for that is bad. So you probably want to make it at level 6 and buy a bunch just to blow it off more often in easy mook battles as your higher level slots will be for the big targets.
Some folks like to say only max level slots are worth using at higher level. That isn't true. I'm level 17 right now and I still use tons of lower level slots and from level 6 blasting spells like chain lightening to level 2 faerie fire to level 3 slow or haste or level 2 see invis.
Level 8 spells use are disappearance or a level 7 sunburst.
PF2 designers did a good job of making spells useful across slot levels with several low level utility spells being useful across all levels and blasting spells being useful from rank 6 to rank 9 spells with level 10 spells being something used for BBEG or to use a level 10 interesting spell.
If you're playing in a game with infinite gold, sure.
For a regular game, what you're saying is completely unrealistic.
To give some numbers, an average 15th level character has a lump sum gold amount of 13500gp.
4.5k of those are for your fundumental armor runes.So, if the only thing you have out of permanent items is your armor, you are left with 9k gold.
A level-1 scroll costs 600gp.
So, if you only spend on scroll, nothing else, not a single staff or skill item bonus, you can have... 15 level-1 scrolls.
Can't you get a wand for the same price as 15 scrolls?
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Again, I quoted you the exact expected gold numbers.
And I answered you your gold number is way out.
+1 Rune: 35gp = 8 Scrolls
Striking Rune: 65gp = 16 Scrolls
Flaming Rune: 500gp = 18 Scrolls
+2 Rune + Frost Rune: 1435gp = 20 Scrolls
Greater Striking Rune: 1065gp = 7 Scrolls
+3 Rune + Shock Rune: 9435gp = 15 Scrolls
Major Striking Rune: 31065gp = 10 Scrolls
Total: 94 Scrolls
That's way more than 15 Scrolls and I only took the money spent on a weapon.
A weapon is easy to build out with runes.
You don't need maxed out energy runes. Greater runes don't do more damage. They usually have higher save DCs against their crit effects or eliminate resistance which really doesn't matter if you take thundering or holy. Which the first level is cheap.
So a 1 action weapon option is something you build out using pick up runes or cheap standard runes without upgrade.
That vastly depends on environment. I'm used to play in environments where I have to pay for my equipment, including my weapons, and the price is definitely one I skip.
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Yet it still a pretty low number to justify sacrifice to have a weapon to get more scrolls along the levels.
As you said SuperBidi, +1 Rune: 35gp = 8 lvl 1 Scrolls.
But we have about 10 encounters per level in avg (maybe a bit less if the GM want to make some more severe encounters and give some extra XP due events or more if the GM makes some more low encounters or don't give non extra XP due events) and you won't still with just lvl 1 scrolls up to level 3. You probably will want to get some lvl 2 scrolls to but each lvl 2 scroll costs 3x the price of a lvl 1 scroll.
This repeats along the levels.
I know that many spellcasters players doesn't like the idea of fight casting while shoting/striking with a weapon but this is more efficient in terms of both action and money economy than try to save some money to get a bit more scrolls.
Also IMO scrolls are more a good option to cast supportive spells like bless and haste in higher levels when the price of this scrolls are pretty cheap than an alternative to weapon or to compensate the limit of your high level spell slots.
Weapons still probably the best way to use your 3rd action up to level 13 when you get fiery body/ferrous form and don't want to sustain a spell and even after if you are hasted.
I guarantee you that if you buy the bare necessities, you'd have less than 15.
Says who? Someone who never ever tried that playstyle and wants to convince someone who did that it's impossible?
As you may guess, 15 scrolls is vastly more than what you need. You need 2 spells per fight to deal 30-50% of enemy hit points pool in damage. Unless your party has issues dealing damage, they should be able to deal the rest of the damage.
Says math.
You haven't provided any mathematical proof. I showed that math disproves your stance as 4 spells are enough to nearly eliminate the opposition single-handledly.
Anyway, I won't convince you so I don't think it's much useful to continue the conversation.
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It is important to remember that the goal of this game is to have fun, and that the game can be played in so many different ways by different groups that assumptions about how the game "works" are varied enough that objective statements about play styles should always be taken with a grain of salt and contextualized by style of play experience of the player making them.
How wealth is distributed and handled varies so heavily from party to party that there are few generalized assumptions that will cary over to everyone's experience. That said, there are charts that are supposed to help guide GMs in designing encounters and as a player those charts are worth understanding well enough for you to ask questions of your GM when you feel like things are not adding up the way you feel that they should.
It is pretty consistent that at odd levels every moderate encounter should give each player in the party about enough gold to buy one more max level scroll and every even level should give you about half again that amount of gold. The wealth by level chart that Shroud is referencing for starting gold for a level 15 character is deceptive because it is the gold that a starting character should have to buy permanent items, not how much gold a character who has reached 15th level in play will have earned and spent. Characters are expected to spend their gold over the course of playing and not just on permanent items. It is one of the more complex jobs of the GM to make sure that the wealth rewards that the party is finding keep up well with the play style of the party and allow the players to play their characters in a way that is fun for everyone.
This ends up meaning that whether using scrolls in encounters is a fun and rewarding experience will vary from table to table based upon whether the other players see value in having a caster that can fire off spells all day long or not, and whether the GM is treating the campaign world like a place where there is a set cap on wealth that the party will receive over the course of the campaign (and so every consumable used is less gold on permanent items at the end of the campaign), or whether the GM is treating the campaign world like a game where each player has certain needs and wants for their character's use of items that requires individualized attention (which is the expectation expressed in the GM guides, even if it is the opposite of what is written into APs).
I agree with Superbidi that casters are a lot more fun when you feel like you can take the gloves off and use your resources freely to be as effective as possible in each encounter, rather than trying to be the rainy day party savior with your spells, hoarding spell slots needlessly 90% of adventure days for sever encounters that never materialize (or materialize in ways you weren't really prepared for anyway), but I acknowledge that different GMs make that easier than others and that the way your figure this out is by talking to your table, and not something that will be resolved in internet debates.
The treasure by level chart states that a party should make a total of 16500gp between levels 12 and 13 split between permanent items, consumables and raw gold. Let's say your gm has given you your share entirely as a lump sum of 4125gp (16500 / 4). By foregoing everything else, you can purchase 13 scrolls of rank 6 chain lightning with some change to spare. You can, conceivably, blast your way through every single fight this way. And this will work roughly every level that you don't need to update your armor or buy any kind of permanent item.
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However, using scrolls for blasts, even in this situation, is still complicated.
You will actually use all your money for scrolls, you will not try to improve your defense with runes or acquire any permanent items. This competes with your budget and considerably reduces the number of rank-1 scrolls you will get.
Another point that was discussed before is, is it worth it? For example, at this level a Sorcerer of the draconic bloodline will already be able to make AoE attacks with one dice of damage less than his top rank fireball + additional bloodline damage about 2x per encounter, resting at least 20 minutes between them. Knowing this, instead of taking scrolls from a lower rank, wouldn't it be better to take some even cheaper utility scroll and use your focus spell and spell slots just to complete it, such as casting a floating flame to complete your 3rd action while using dragon breath focus spell as the main attack and then for your 3rd or 4th round, use some cantrips to finish off those who were still alive?
Scrolls are not bandaids to compensate the lack of spells slots they are utility tools to allow you to make some utility specific strategy or to use in a situational situation.
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I'm not sure you would use chain lightning every single round of every combat.
Use it the first 2 or maybe even 3 rounds, sure. But once most of the monsters are dead, you can drop back to a focus spell or your lower level slots.
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Scrolls can be many things for casters, but they do allow for a play style where casters can come out blasting with a top rank or top rank -1 blasting spell in most every encounter. That is a valid way to play a blaster caster if, as the OP was asking, that is the goal.
This is nice because it means that pretty much any caster can be an all day blaster without investing character building resources into doing so, meaning that you don't really have to do much to optimize a caster for blasting as long as you are willing to spend about 50% of your wealth on making sure you have enough blasting scrolls to use them when you need them, rather than feeling like you have to hold back from doing your best damaging option when that is what you want to do.
That's not the scenario Bidi gives though. That's [Max rank] scrolls, not [Max rank-1] scrolls. At rank-1, you get double that number (literally; rank 5 to 6 doubles scroll cost). Or alternatively, you get the same number of scrolls plus half your loot take to use for other purposes.
At level 13 (the point at which you'd have earned all that money), max rank is 7. Hence, rank 6 being rank-1. Though at levels like 13->14 you could indeed buy top rank instead.
I would think Super Bidi is probably doing efficient scroll purchasing.
A max level slot is not needed. The idea of a max level slot being needed is a false one.
A lot of blast spells aren't as usable due to their area of effect. Fireball is still a very usable spell at many levels because a 20 foot burst is easier to fit into an area with other PCs than a Sunburst or Eclipse Burst 30 foot burst and miss your fellow PCs. Cones are hard to use as well without hitting PCs if you are standing behind them away from the battle. Lines usually are not wide enough to hit enough targets. The burst or emanation is usually the best, but you can position for cones now and again.
Chain Lightning is one of the best blasting spells because it is surgical and hits only enemies or targets you want it to hit. So it stays useful across many levels.
It sounds like Super Bidi also uses a lot of single target scrolls. I would thing spells like Sudden Bolt or Magic Missile. If he carries a bunch of those scrolls, he doesn't really need to purchase them with max level slots.
At 13th level, he can buy 5th level magic missile and sudden bolt scrolls for 150 gold each. He can craft batches of 4 for 600 gold, less if he has more days. A 5th level sudden bolt 7d12 damage and a 5th magic missile is 9d9+4 guaranteed hit. That's more cost effective than buying a 9d12 7th level sudden bolt for 600 gold each for 13 more average damage less times per day.
You don't need max level slots to do big damage every hit. Combine a max level slot from your actual slots, then hammer with some 5th and mix in a sustain spell and it will all add up to a lot of damage.
Just to add to the mix of blasting info on this thread. What are you most used blasting spells?
1st level
Magic Missile: usually get this as a sig spell on spontaneous casters. It's always nice to have a guaranteed hit spell for doing some damage against hard targets or if something is almost dead.
Hydraulic Push
2nd level
Sudden Bolt
3rd level
Fireball: usually a sig spell.
Searing light: situational, but good when that situation occurs.
4th level
Phantasmal killer
Sanguine Mist
6th level (this level for some reason has probably the most good blasting spells that do good damage and are easy to use on a battlefield)
Arrow Salvo
Chain Lightning
Phantasmal Calamity
Phantom Orchestra
Spirit Blast
Vampiric Exsanguination
7th level (Divine has some nice ones here)
Deity's Strike
Divine Decree
Eclipse Burst
Frigid Flurry (not the easiest to use, but cool when you can)
Moonburst
Shadow Raid
Sunburst
8th level
Boil Blood
Canticle of Everlasting Grief
Divine Armageddon
Horrid Wilting: good precision so you don't hit your group.
Polar Ray: I don't like it, but it can do damage, especially on a critical hit.
Spirit Song
9th level
Meteor Swarm: Hard to use given the area it covers, but it hits super hard.
Power Word Kill: Finally an arcane spell that is brutal.
Storm of Vengeance
Wail of the Banshee
Weird
10th level
Cataclysm
Shadow Army
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Overall, you are all speaking of much bigger stacks of Scrolls than what you actually need.
The scarcity mentality is based on the fear of the empty spell list. As a result, most players will never experience it outside extreme circumstances. And when they get to sleep, they have a lot of remaining spells in their slots. So the first effect of buying a good stack of Scrolls is that you use your slotted spells, not your Scrolls. The only adventuring days where you'll actually start using your Scrolls are the longest ones. For all the other adventuring days you'll just be more liberal in your slot use without ever reaching your limit.
A corollary impacts combat: Players with the scarcity mentality will start low (with a Focus spell or cantrip), ramp up if the fight is tough, and then ramp down. This is inefficient. The best combat strategy is to start high and ramp down.
These 2 points generate one big effect: You have much more efficiency. It's not something you'll feel at each and every combat because fights are random in PF2. But during your top fights you'll deal 50+% of the party damage, and that's blissful.
This increase in efficiency will actually have a reverse impact on your resource use: As you'll be more efficient, fights will be shorter and you'll use less resources.
To sum up:
- You'll be much more efficient, effectively doubling your blasting ability (blasting is the form of casting that is the most impacted as it relies heavily on your top spell slots, but other forms of magic are also impacted by this way of playing).
- It'll be much more pleasant. Without even considering there's pleasure in efficiency, but there's definitely displeasure in self-restraint.
- You won't actually burn that many Scrolls. Shroudb's fear of burning 10 Scrolls per adventuring day is completely out of proportion, even with 3-slot casters you don't use that many Scrolls.
I moved away from the scarcity mentality in Starfinder (which has much more limited spell lists). And since then I regularly have comments on my caster's violence or my way of playing, comments that I never see otherwise (I play a lot of PFS so I meet a lot of different characters/players). It also reshapes combats as martials take my spells areas in consideration before moving (which is not the case before they start understanding my way of playing). I also find that it puts back caster at their rightful position: at the center of the party.
What are you most used blasting spells?
I consider only the best when it comes to blasting.
Magic Missile
Sudden Bolt (Thunderstrike if you don't have access)
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
True Striked Searing Light
Chain Lightning
Eclipse Burst
Meteor Swarm
There are other spells that work depending on circumstances:
Imaginary Weapon, Debilitating Dichotomy and Shatter Mind: You need a specific build to use them but they are high value damaging spells.
Wand of Manifold Missile: Third actions rarely impact blasting much but this is a clear exception. It is so high value that taking a Dedication just for it is valid.
3-action Heal when you face Undeads: Healing + blasting.
Spectral Hand + Harm/Tempest Touch: I'm liberal when using spell slots but not enough to use Harm on every build. But on a Tempest Oracle of Evil Cleric you can make it work thanks to Spectral Hand (preferably cast beforehand).
Sound Burst, Sudden Blight, Spiritual Weapon, Divine Smite and Divine Immolation: These spells are not good but they are the only ones available to the Divine spell list. You should find a god with a good low level blast so you won't have to rely too much on them but, well, you may have to.
Spell Immunity + Wall of Fire: In small rooms with big enemies it can be a fight ender. Still, it asks for expensive preparation.
You should also look at Scorching Ray.Yes its an attack roll but it is reasonable multitarget damage even after the melee gets busy. So similar role to Chain Lightning.
Frigid Flurry is good enough.
Shadow Projectile is great when you have a lot of slots to fit in even more blast damage.
Overall, you are all speaking of much bigger stacks of Scrolls than what you actually need.
The scarcity mentality is based on the fear of the empty spell list. As a result, most players will never experience it outside extreme circumstances. And when they get to sleep, they have a lot of remaining spells in their slots. So the first effect of buying a good stack of Scrolls is that you use your slotted spells, not your Scrolls. The only adventuring days where you'll actually start using your Scrolls are the longest ones. For all the other adventuring days you'll just be more liberal in your slot use without ever reaching your limit.
A corollary impacts combat: Players with the scarcity mentality will start low (with a Focus spell or cantrip), ramp up if the fight is tough, and then ramp down. This is inefficient. The best combat strategy is to start high and ramp down.
These 2 points generate one big effect: You have much more efficiency. It's not something you'll feel at each and every combat because fights are random in PF2. But during your top fights you'll deal 50+% of the party damage, and that's blissful.
This increase in efficiency will actually have a reverse impact on your resource use: As you'll be more efficient, fights will be shorter and you'll use less resources.
To sum up:
- You'll be much more efficient, effectively doubling your blasting ability (blasting is the form of casting that is the most impacted as it relies heavily on your top spell slots, but other forms of magic are also impacted by this way of playing).
- It'll be much more pleasant. Without even considering there's pleasure in efficiency, but there's definitely displeasure in self-restraint.
- You won't actually burn that many Scrolls. Shroudb's fear of burning 10 Scrolls per adventuring day is completely out of proportion, even with 3-slot casters you don't use that many Scrolls.I moved away from the scarcity mentality in Starfinder (which has much more limited spell lists). And since then I regularly have...
That's how to do it. Open with a big dog spell while you have a chance of hitting everyone without messing the other PCs up and before the monster's hit points are depleted causing your damage to be overkill.
Then adjust as needed as the PCs spread and start doing damage.
I tend to use focus spells either for a set up like consuming darkness with 4th level invis to walk amongst the martials and drain damage and interfere with movement. Maybe toss in a 6th level slow. This is when I'm letting the martials do most the damage with a control strategy and just relying on sustain damage and cantrips. Still tends to add up to quite a bit of damage by the end, but is more of a slow burn strategy.
The best blast focus spell for clean up damage is the two blast elemental focus spells or tempest surge. After you've already smacked them hard, just add some more damage with a sudden bolt and 1 action elemental shot or whatever or a weapon strike with a tempest surge for single target damage. If doing a few mooks clean up, use the elemental AoE spell in the necessary area of effect.
I have been enjoying unraveling blast for the Harrow Sorc. It gets up to 29d4 damage. I'm at 26d4 and can flat foot the target.
Debilitating Dichotomy and a few of the psychic spells are good. I always like spells that do damage and apply a debuff or some effect.
I always consider any damage caused due a spell I cast my damage. If I use Rewrite Possibility on the rogue after they miss, that is my damage caused by my spell. Same as true target. May not be pure blasting, but if your spell is the reason someone hits, that's your damage.
Casters are definitely the most powerful at high level. They can do a lot of damage and effects that trivialize encounters. The shift seems to happen around 11th level and just keeps on shifting in caster's favor, though martials do have better defenses to withstand incoming pain. I imagine there is always a cost for power.
That's how to do it. Open with a big dog spell
You say that and then:
The best blast focus spell for clean up damage is the two blast elemental focus spells or tempest surge. After you've already smacked them hard, just add some more damage with a sudden bolt and 1 action elemental shot or whatever or a weapon strike with a tempest surge for single target damage. If doing a few mooks clean up, use the elemental AoE spell in the necessary area of effect.
So, do you open with a big dog spell or with a Focus Spell? Because it's rather unclear to me.
That's how to do it. Open with a big dog spellYou say that and then:
The best blast focus spell for clean up damage is the two blast elemental focus spells or tempest surge. After you've already smacked them hard, just add some more damage with a sudden bolt and 1 action elemental shot or whatever or a weapon strike with a tempest surge for single target damage. If doing a few mooks clean up, use the elemental AoE spell in the necessary area of effect.So, do you open with a big dog spell or with a Focus Spell? Because it's rather unclear to me.
Sorry, American slang. I know you've said you're from another country.
Clean up is after you've already hit them with a big dog spell and you're finishing up targets after they are mostly dealt with.
Order would look like this:
Round 1: Big Dog spell like chain lightning or eclipse burst to open.
Round 2: Maybe another big spell if I have room or things set up right or maybe a control spell if I want to slow damage done by the targets.
Round 3 and later: Use AoE or single target damage focus spell to kill remaining targets likely engaged with martials.
In round 3 or later if things are still alive, I imagine you use a scroll or some cantrip to finish easy targets that are already mostly dead.
It depends on how much info you have from scouting, the room set up, the enemy spread, and other variables.
Clean up is after you've already hit them with a big dog spell and you're finishing up targets after they are mostly dealt with.
Ok, so we agree. Focus Spells are useful when you ramp down the damage.
So are we suggesting to replace Blaster-Casters with Kineticist at this point? Is that what I see being recommended to everyone or am I just reading the first coupl3e posts a bit too much?
Blasting with casters works from level 1 as long as you don’t get slogged with really long adventure days and have access to buying scrolls after every couple of encounters. The issue with it is that a fair number of APs try to throw you into chains of encounters or your party thinks they are supposed to clear a whole floor in one day, just because someone in the party has lay on hands. Even with only 3 spell slots, a drain bonded item and a scroll or 2, 3 encounters is very doable where you throw down spell slots about 2 an encounter.
I am curious how much more weaknesses and resistances will factor in to the new stream of level -1 monsters we will see in the monster core 1 book as that has a lot of potential to change the way people see blasting.
Right now, force barrage is probably too good of a rank 1 single target blast spell. Not in “problematic for game balance” sense, but just in a “this is good enough that I don’t really need to pick up more 1st level blasting spells.” No attack roll or save just makes it so powerful in encounters where the enemy has a level advantage and it requires no action set up to hit hard. Thunderstrike takes a long time to pass it up as the better damage option without specific weaknesses or a terrible save. 4 casters who all had 4+ castings of force barrage at level 1 and just multi target/AoE cantrips would tear through any APs 1st level that wasn’t “here’s a string of 8 to 10 encounters you have to complete before you can take your first rest.”
Spell attack roll spells used to have a niche in single target damage spells , since you could set them up against a fairly debuffed enemy, but those are really going away in the remaster. And multi target blasting/blast and debuff are the more magical feeling spells than trying to snipe hard with shocking grasp or horizon thunder sphere.
My current wizard works with the party wood kineticist to be the party tank, but the best way to be able to draw enemy fire in the first place is to blast hard round one, so the enemy comes to me and I never have to waste actions moving.
The new conceal spell makes pre buffing and spell based recon so much easier. The remaster changes are a bigger step back towards the god wizard archetype than I thought they’d be. Not in a “I solve all the problems myself” sense, but in a “the wizard puts the whole party on the path towards the easiest possible solution to the problem ahead” sense. I think blasting in PF2 is probably in a better place than it was in PF1, because shut down battle field control and save or suck spells are so much harder to stick effectively and consistently. Especially since you don’t/can’t build into being an over-specialized caster. You can always have a couple of very good blasting options available to you, even if your primary role is something else.
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So are we suggesting to replace Blaster-Casters with Kineticist at this point? Is that what I see being recommended to everyone or am I just reading the first coupl3e posts a bit too much?
I would not be suggesting that. Minimal damage types and repetitive action cycles are not especially fun to me. Kineticists are best when party damage dealer is not seen as their primary role in the party. They can do decent damage, but not better than spell slot spells. Unless your party just constantly pushes on in dungeons and only ever likes to take short rests, a dedicated blaster caster is a better damage dealer than a kineticist. But the kineticist is really fun and thematic and can be easier to learn than a caster so can be more satisfying for what many players want out of the blaster role.
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I also don't see the Kineticist as a replacement for blaster casters. Its damage is really lower.
But:
- It has much better defenses (mostly HP, but also easier ways to maximize AC).
- It is very easy to play and quite reliable. It's hard to make mistakes. Casters are harder to play, spells are for example of very different values.
- It has some nice utility effects that go sometimes beyond what spells can do.
For me, it's a question of simplicity and reliability on one side and of maximum efficiency on the other.
Which Kineticist element would benefit the most from using scrolls through Kinetic Activation for blasting ?
Or would it be better to just take a caster dedication (Arcane casting I presume) for a Kineticist to blast with scrolls ?
dedication.
Fire gets you a fireball, but Chain lighting and lightning bolt are electricity so not accessible.
There is also Scroll Thaumaturgy. Though the dedication is useless, even with Weapon Infusion.
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The original Op asked about character build suggestions for a level 12 character in a campaign going to 20, and I realized I never really responded to that.
As maybe the boards' biggest proponent of the wizard, I do think a battle magic school wizard is a particularly strong blaster. A good 1 action focus spell that you will use all the time is hard to pass on and while I love spell substitution as a way to really feel unique as a wizard, starting at level 12 with an interest in blasting leads very neatly to spell blending as that thesis really doesn't start get going until level 7+.
As far as ancestry, I am a sucker for human to grab reach at level 1 for a blaster (unless your party is into setting up big AoEs for you, in which case widen spell can be a lot of fun). I have no idea what kind of campaign you are playing, but a couple of wizard feats that are incredibly useful in play:
Nonlethal spell is surprisingly awesome for blasters in campaigns where you want to be able to take prisoners/not kill people. It is wizard only and doing nonlethal damage with spells is really difficult otherwise. With this feat you can do things like non-lethal fireball and be a little less concerned about friendly fire for NPCs as well. If that idea sounds useful for your campaign, I promise you it will be, but if it doesn't, or you don't think your GM or other players are interested in playing that style of game then it won't be useful.
which is ok because
Conceal spell is dangerously close to must take for all casters. It is the only reliable way to get to prebuff spells that you won't want to waste time casting in combats without alerting any nearby enemies you are there.
level 4 is only worth messing with bespell strikes if the cast and use a weapon is your thing, but force bolt is usually a much more reliable damage dealer with no gold sink or feat investment necessary.
IRRESISTIBLE MAGIC is a great level 6 feat for a blaster wizard. Other classes should be considering MCing in to pick it up if they want to be primary blasters.
I think knowledge is power is the best level 8 choice for a blaster wizard , but advanced school spell is your only in class way to get more force bolts. It sounds like you might be playing free archetype though in which case I recommend getting your focus spells from your psychic dedication or your witch dedication (I prefer psychic personally for amped guidance, since you will mostly be using your focus points on force bolt, but having a back up reaction that is that useful is pretty awesome).
At level 10, overwhelming energy is appealing for many blasters, but I think it is a mistake for the wizard. The point of being a wizard and not a sorcerer is to use the right spell for the situation, not to force the same spell down the enemy's throat. I think it is better for control wizards than blasters, who should just be blasting with a different energy type. It is only once a day, but I like quicken spell for blasters.
level 12 is a great starting place for the blaster wizard because Forceable energy is a great feat for a party with a lot of casters. It is a great option for you and will make everyone very happy when you figure out how to run with it.
Clean up is after you've already hit them with a big dog spell and you're finishing up targets after they are mostly dealt with.Ok, so we agree. Focus Spells are useful when you ramp down the damage.
Yep. I see Focus spells as good for sustaining damage for a time resource cost versus a daily resource since you can do them 1 to 3 times per 10 minute rest. So you use them after you already smashed with the heavy spell, then want to sustain damage as things die.
Some folks like to say only max level slots are worth using at higher level. That isn't true. I'm level 17 right now and I still use tons of lower level slots and from level 6 blasting spells like chain lightening to level 2 faerie fire to level 3 slow or haste or level 2 see invis.
This cannot be stressed enough. I've gone as high as 17th-level with a champion, and have totally rocked the game even at those high levels with only 0-3rd rank spells from the Sorcerer multiclass archetype.
It's not how high your max spell rank is, it's how you use them!
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So are we suggesting to replace Blaster-Casters with Kineticist at this point? Is that what I see being recommended to everyone or am I just reading the first coupl3e posts a bit too much?
I'm playing a fire-metal kineticist right now. They are too short range and limited to replace casters. Though Kineticists do layered damage that can add up quite nicely. It's a deceptively good amount of damage done in small amounts that adds up over time.
I don't really see casters as specialized any longer. Making a blasting caster in PF2 would be like tying one arm behind your back just because. There is no benefit to it and no feats or abilities to support self-limiting to blasting. You can take good blasting spells with other good spells. You may as well use your full toolbox than self-limit to blasting.
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Hmmm I was thinking KA. Here's my reasoning: the whole point of a kineticist taking blasty spells (or scrolls) is to go *above* what you can do with an impulse. Since impulses are roughly like Max Rank-1, any option that gives you access to Max Rank -1 spells is just kinda pointless (unless you are looking for some debuff or special effect you can't achieve otherwise). For example: a 6d6 fireball at level 5 is great for a kineticist - that beats out any impulse in terms of damage. But a 6d6 fireball at level 8 (which is what you'll get with an archetype) is simply inferior to the 6d8 blazing wave or solar detonation that a single gate fire kineticist would have without bothering with an archetype. Likewise, wands, staves, and scroll trickster are all out, because they give spell access that's a rank or more below maximum and thus you're spending a lot of build resources to get something which probably does...about what an impulse does. I will admit to being a noob, but the only way I know for a kineticist to get access to spells commensurate with their actual level is KA + buying scrolls. Any fancier build game tends to be "be level X, get access to spells of rank (X/2)-1".
Any spellcasting Dedication also lets you buy and use scrolls to access spells at current max rank (or potentially even higher). The bigger benefit to Kinetic Activation over a Dedication is that you use your Kineticist class DC instead of the DC from the Dedication class. Kineticist scales to Expert at 7, Master at 15, and Legendary at 19 whereas a Dedication is Expert at 12 and Master at 18 (and getting that requires investing 3 more feats). So I agree Kinetic Activation is the better choice for most Kineticists even if I disagree with your line of reasoning.
That said, in a FA game it's beneficial to also take a spellcasting Dedication, since that gives you access to a greater variety of damage types. I just wouldn't spend any primary class feats on one.
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Which Kineticist element would benefit the most from using scrolls through Kinetic Activation for blasting ?
Or would it be better to just take a caster dedication (Arcane casting I presume) for a Kineticist to blast with scrolls ?
dedication.
Fire gets you a fireball, but Chain lighting and lightning bolt are electricity so not accessible.
There is also Scroll Thaumaturgy. Though the dedication is useless, even with Weapon Infusion.
The dedication has issues with archetype lock-in, and it only unlocks a single spellcasting tradition. Kinetic Activation lets you use your Kineticist Class DC rather than whatever casting skill you manage to scrounge up with archetype feats, and it also gives you access to staves, at the same level of charge as a standard full-caster.
So it's a power vs flexibility thing. You want to be able to run around with a small library of low-level utility scrolls just in case? You'll want to archetype. You want to add some spell-based blasting to your impulse-based blasting, at minimal feat cost, and actually have the hits land? You'll want kinetic Activation.
Of course, Kinetic Activation gets significantly better as you add elements. If you want to run a single-element kineticist, then your flexibility is going to be *seriously* constrained. If you want to run the Avatar Special, then by the time you've unlocked everything, you'll have something that's not entirely ashamed to compare itself to a standard tradition in terms of breadth.
Total non-focus spells in game: 1015
Arcane: 669
Divine: 362
Occult: 541
Primal: 506
Earth(49)+Air(41)+Fire(55)+Water(44)+Metal(20)+Wood(24): 216
Elemental (from that one dreadful archetype): 50
Incidentally, adding in Cold(27), Electricity(20) and Plant(35) brings the total up to 263. If I were houseruling it, I'd probably add "plant" to the list for Wood and "electricity" to the list for Metal, and then think a bit about Cold. Regardless, that would be a houserule.
So... not awful. Not if you were already intending to get a bunch fo different elements to play with. Still, like I said, the selling points of Kinetic Activation are "you get to use your full con-based Class DC for attack spells" and "It's one feat and no archetype lock-in". If those aren't strong draws for you, then Kinetic Activation isn't the path you shoudl take.
Well, okay. Some people might like it for flavor, too. There's nothing wrong with making build choices based on flavor.
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Which Kineticist element would benefit the most from using scrolls through Kinetic Activation for blasting ?
Or would it be better to just take a caster dedication (Arcane casting I presume) for a Kineticist to blast with scrolls ?
For damage/debuffing to use Kinetic Activation is better because it will use your Kineticist Attack/DC including this allows you to use your Gate Attenuator item bonus of your impulse attacks modifier to your Spell Attacks (but not for saves) (so you can cast a scroll of Scorching Ray spellshaped with a Shadow Signet using your Gate Attenuator item bonus to your spell attack!!).
For less hostile spells it's better to get a spellcaster dedication or just try to trick the scrolls.
Kineticist feels more like a battlemage, a shotgun wizard. Not exactly the same function as a caster, even when they are limiting themselves to damaging spells.
Going back to a previous topic now, I kind of agree with Superbidi to a point with the scarcity mentality thing. When you allow yourself to go nuts, caster damage is ridiculous, even against a single target. Thing is that past a certain point, I'd rather swap between doing big damage with your top slots and pivoting to a support role with your lower ones, supplementing both with focus spells. You can still carry a fight with level -3 or -4 spells if you choose the right ones and around level 10 or so it is hard to use all your spells in a normal adventuring day. Blasting can be your main shtick and it does wonders, but not using your lower level slots for buffs, debuffs and utility is shooting yourself in the knee.
I also love scrolls, but since I can never be sure how the loot and money will flow in a homemade campaign (which constitutes most of what I play), I'd rather save part of that money he is using on scrolls to ensure I can be up to date with my defensive runes and my staff.
I use my top slots for utility as often as not and I get by just fine with lower rank spells.
I will admit to being a noob, but the only way I know for a kineticist to get access to spells commensurate with their actual level is KA + buying scrolls. Any fancier build game tends to be "be level X, get access to spells of rank (X/2)-1".
Fair. I'm also a bit of a PF2 noob.
I was thinking too much about spell access.
You can still carry a fight with level -3 or -4 spells if you choose the right ones
I kind of agree. Of course, some evergreens work fine up to level 20. But the first one is Slow (against bosses). So with 3-4 ranks less than your top spells we are speaking of level 11-13+. It's a limited moment (you could say nearly half of the game, but we all know that low level play is more common than high level play).
Efficient low rank spells is really an end game concept.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I use my top slots for utility as often as not and I get by just fine with lower rank spells.
Since the point of the thread is blasting as a caster, I don't think that advise amounts to much.
You can still carry a fight with level -3 or -4 spells if you choose the right onesI kind of agree. Of course, some evergreens work fine up to level 20. But the first one is Slow (against bosses). So with 3-4 ranks less than your top spells we are speaking of level 11-13+. It's a limited moment (you could say nearly half of the game, but we all know that low level play is more common than high level play).
Efficient low rank spells is really an end game concept.
I consider level 9 the breakpoint, honestly. Rank 2 slots by then feel inexpensive, so you can start making good use of spells like Hideous Laughter or Loose Time's Arrow, who are very meaningful spell casts by that point in the game. Obviously things get much better at levels 11 or so once you can start throwing like nothing not only those, but also Slows or rank 3 Fear spells.
And it is not like proper blasting is that effective at low levels either, it is also a mid to high level thing for the most part. Before rank 3 spells you don't have good AoE/multitarget spells besides Scorching Ray, and at levels 5 and 6 casters lagging behind in their spell DC hurts quite a bit. Before that we are looking at Magic Missile for bosses, Scorching Ray for mobs and that's kind of it. That's alright, but it is nothing too impressive either, specially considering how in levels 1 to 4 Runic Weapon and Heal are as dominant as they are.
Btw, I think these medium levels (7 to 13 or so) are the ones I've played the most. I'm pretty sure the low levels are undoubtly the ones people play the most, but outside organized play I don't think the difference in experience people have with low and mid level play is as big as you may think. 15+ though, that I'm sure most people have little to no experince with from what I can gather from these boards, Reddit and Twitter.
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I use my top slots for utility as often as not and I get by just fine with lower rank spells.Since the point of the thread is blasting as a caster, I don't think that advise amounts to much.
Allow me to be more clear: You can blast just fine with spells one or even two ranks below your maximum spell rank, without ever needing to touch your highest level slots.
I've done it in several adventures with a number of characters and it has made an almost negligible impact on the party's overall performance.
I use utility spells in many of my top slots, but if you were to use powerful debuff spells in those slots, then the secondary blast spells you follow up with may well come out as MORE optimal than straight-up higher rank blasting.
The idea that you must always use your top slots to be effective (particularly where blasting is concerned) is complete hogwash.
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...and there are a few blasty spells that can be usefully blasty even when significantly outleveled, generally because they're only eating reactions. (I've only included the common slot spells here)
Brine Dragon Bile (lvl 2 arcane/primal): reaction when a creature takes damage from slashing or piercing - adds a decent helping of ongoing acid damage to that
Shadow Projectile (lvl 3 arcane/occult): reaction when an ally makes a ranged attack. Causes damage and makes the enemy off-guard to the attack
Anathemic Reprisal (lvl 4 divine): reaction to deal damage to someone who's just violated one of your deity's anathema in front of you. Deals damage. (How useful this is is very deity-specific.)
There are some that fit in similarly by being single-action, but, as it turns out, none that are common slot spells.
Cernunnos, Apsu, and Qi Zhong stand out as having readily available anathema, though in Qi Zhong's case it becomes difficult to trigger the spell without violating the anathema yourself. There's also a few in there who get upset when you harm children/old people, and thus depend on details of party distribution.
Qi Zhong is a great choice for the Agents of Edgewatch adventure path since it has specific rules that make ALL of your attacks, spells, and abilities nonlethal without penalty.