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You need to decide if you actually want to JUST be a blaster or a general spell caster who can blast. If you want to mono blast, you'll want a single gate fire kineticist. If you want to scale up your utility, then the tiers are essentially:
Mono fire kineticist
Most other kineticists
Psychics
Sorcerers
Spell blending wizards
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I don't play a casters much, but in this edition I've always had concerns about the longevity of blasters simply because of the limited spell of each level. I think you might have a hard time dealing relevant damage outside of your top 2 spell levels. (Although I think all casters have this problem that offensive spells outside the top 2 levels just don't seem to have enough impact, but again this is my perception as someone who doesn't play them much).
All of which is to say, personally I would look at some way of getting some Focus Spells that you like for blasting so you can do it more consistently.
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the tiers are essentially:
Mono fire kineticist
Most other kineticists
Psychics
Sorcerers
Spell blending wizards
Or more generally:
1) Kineticist
2) Focus spell damage casters
3) Spell slot damage casters
The reason being that spell slots run out for the day. And focus points run out for the rest of a fight. Kineticist just keeps throwing out Impulse effects.
For focus point blasters, Psychic is really good. I also think that Flame Oracle, Element type Druid (especially Storm Order), and some types of Sorcerer can do pretty well.
the tiers are essentially:
Mono fire kineticist
Most other kineticists
Psychics
Sorcerers
Spell blending wizardsOr more generally:
1) Kineticist
2) Focus spell damage casters
3) Spell slot damage castersThe reason being that spell slots run out for the day. And focus points run out for the rest of a fight. Kineticist just keeps throwing out Impulse effects.
For focus point blasters, Psychic is really good. I also think that Flame Oracle, Element type Druid (especially Storm Order), and some types of Sorcerer can do pretty well.
Yup, although spell blending wizards have a pretty sizable longevity edge for top level slots compared to other casters, which is why they made my list.
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I like primal elemental blaster sorcerer.
You could do draconic arcane sorcerer as well.
The remaster wizard seems like it may be a better blaster with focus spells.
Druid storm isn't bad either, but I usually add a weapon like a bow in for single action damage add.
Psychic is an interesting blaster too, but have to manage the cantrips.
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Elementalist archetype wizards deserve a look as well, the air and earth focus spells are very strong single target blasts.
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On the kineticist, I wouldn't suggest mono fire. I'd suggest dual element with heavy fire. Go dual gate from the beginning, with fire and something else you like, then take the fire aura junction at 5 and the fire impulse junction at 9. Losing that one point of damage per die on 2+ action impulses isn't going to hurt you all that much before then. The blast junction is *technically* useful... but it's just so low-impact that it's hard to care.
I'd further suggest Metal or perhaps Earth for that second element. They both have nice blastery combo impulses with fire, and they both have armor impulses at level 1, which will let you invest in str rather than dex... which is nice for getting a bit of extra damage out of Weapon Infusion. If you're not planning on going overflow-heavy (which I wouldn't suggest on a Fire blaster) then you really should get weapon infusion.
Protip - if you do go metal/fire, Molten Wire neither cares about nor affects BAB in spite of being vs-AC. It's weird like that. Also, if you get high enough level for it, Hell of 1,000,000 Needles is apparently pretty brutal, and a heck of an opener.
I honestly wouldn't suggest dipping into any MCs. Dual-element kineticist is going to give you plenty of useful places to spend those class feats. If you wind up with FA or something...? Hoenstly, at that point I'd suggest going with psychic, with an eye towards picking up useful enhanced cantrips in general and enhanced guidance in particular. "Useful" in this case is more about utility than damage (you'll be able to turn your actions into damage just fine without spending focus points) and Amped Guidance in particular is a reaction, which Kineticist are... spotty on. Like, they have reactions, but the reactions they have (other than shield block, where appropriate) are basically all niche.
Kineticist ancestries are an entirely different thing that I put together a thread on once.
(I rather like the Kineticist. Can you tell?)
/*******************/
That said, there are some caveats.
- Dedicated blaster kineticists can get a bit bland. They're very good at being blasty, but they miss out on the utility powers that the slot-casters wind up with whether they like it or not. In the case of fire blasters, they also wind up wanting to get pretty close, especially between level 5 and level 10, in order to really take advantage of that aura junction. If you want to be able to stay back and blast, then this kineticist is not for you.
- It depends on your encounter profile. Kineticists are fantastic all-day blasters. They can keep running at full intensity for as long as you like, right up until the HP run out. If your campaign features a lot of 10-minute adventuring days, though... the fact that they're built for sustained combat is going to mean that the slot-spell casters are going to beat them out pretty handily. In that case, I might suggest a Sorceror, as even the Spell Blending Wizard is basically just a way to get more high-level slots to play with, and for the very short days, running out of slots basically isn't a problem.
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I prefer a primal sorcerer, multiclassed into a occult caster (psychic or bard). Then pick up a staff with true strike in it. You will have a good range of spells. Getting a big attack spell with true strike is very effective. Searing Light and Polar ray can be devastating.
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Lots of words
I also prefer starting Dual Gate for OP's situation. The only relevant things they'll lose are getting several composite impulses through Elemental Overlap and the counter fire reaction.
I personally favor Wind and Water for the secondary element. Wind for the invisibility and Flight impulses, Water for the reaction and the healing (also Steam Knight, but it requires dome deviation from what most would consider a standard fire build).
While I agree with going hard on archetypes is a bad idea without FA, getting sentinel at 2 is not that hard to fit for most fire builds. That's why I don't value Earth of Metal that much outside their composite impulses, and if I want them, mono fire already gets access to them and a few more toys on top.
Also, for the reactions I really like Volcanic Escape even though oveflow is not where Fire kineticists are at. Yeah, it costs you an action later on, but it makes you really hard to kill (enemy moves in and strikes, you react and you are suddenly out of reach for their follow-up) and makes it so staying at that sweetspot range relative to enemies towards the border of your aura way easier. It is also a decent way of squeezing a bit more damage towards the end of a fight.
Regarding high level impulses, Ignite the Sun is too good to pass up. It has insane damage potential, even if you plan to only sustain one and use your actions for other stuff.
So OP, what I'd do if you want to go Fire Kineticist is
1. Decide between mono-fire or dual gate. It comes down to what you value more, the ability to counter fire effects and poach composite impulses or getting the extra utility that a second element brings.
1.5 If you go for dual, decide your second element. I recommend Water or Wind, but most elements have good things to offer.
2. Make sure you get the most important impulses. Those being Flying Flame, Thermal Nimbus, Furnace Form and Ignite the Sun. Weapon Infusion, Aura Control and Effortless Impulse are also too good to skip. I'd also consider Volcanic Escape if you don't have a better reaction and also encourage you to pick Versatile Blasts if you go for mono-fire.
2.5 If possible and only if you are not going for the Earth, Metal or Wood dual gate route, try to get Sentinel Dedication so you don't need to worry about DEX. You will also need Armor Proficiency for heavy armor.
3 round out the rest of your build, get some items, come up with a cool backstory and go play your character.
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Looking to play an arcane caster just because the party already contains a primal and divine caster. An occult caster would be ok too but they are looking for a blaster and I'm not sold on Occults blasting ability. I have no idea which class is best here for the blaster so I am looking for someone who can provide advice on race, attributes, class, which MC to dip into etc. the campaign goes to level 20, current level is 12.
I'm a great fan of casters with a (strong) blasting component. My experience is that a good blaster has more to do with how the player plays their character than with the actual build.
Roughly, nothing will compete with your 2 highest spell slots when it comes to damage. Focus Spells are a trap and Kineticist does consistent damage but far too low to be considered a blaster.
So the main goal to play a blaster is to maximize your number of top spells so you can blast all day long. Sorcerer and Spell-Blending Wizard are the 2 'class' options, Scrolls is the 'item' option.
And then, you need to blast... It seems silly, but it's actually the main issue most players have with blasters: the scarcity mentality. They hoard their spells waiting for the "good moment" to cast them. That just doesn't work with blasting. If you don't blast you won't blast. It's repetition of blasts, rounds after rounds, that makes you a good blaster. And to achieve that, you need to switch away from the scarcity mentality. You need to blast anytime you can (unless the fight is won and then you can switch to Focus Spells/Cantrips). And if you end up out of spells, it means you haven't bought enough scrolls. Never ramp down the blasting, ramp up the scrolls (you can siphon half of your equipment in scrolls without issue, PF2 economy is extremely forgiving). At level 12+, fights tend to last quite some rounds, so buy Scrolls of your second highest level, they are cheap like candies so you can easily get a dozen of them.
Fighting the scarcity mentality is really the key to blasting. That's why the best is to buy way too many scrolls, forcing you to use them so you can realize you actually can't use enough of them as there are not enough rounds in a day to do so. Also, if you play a prepared caster like a Spell Blending Wizard, don't make the mistake of having a "versatile" spell list. Just Prepare a few spells in all your top spell slots, versatility is for toolboxes, you do play a blaster.
Do you recommend blaster builds invest in Magical Crafting and craft their own in downtime? For just INT casters, or everyone? Or is it just not a great 'bang for the buck' in terms of downtime activity and skill feat choice?
Magical Crafting is a bit of a situational pick. Especially if the decision is made entirely for creating consumables.
In certain campaigns where buying items is not always available, it can be very powerful. In other campaigns where buying items is available pretty much constantly, buying the items is faster and not more expensive.
Do you recommend blaster builds invest in Magical Crafting and craft their own in downtime? For just INT casters, or everyone? Or is it just not a great 'bang for the buck' in terms of downtime activity and skill feat choice?Magical Crafting is a bit of a situational pick. Especially if the decision is made entirely for creating consumables.
In certain campaigns where buying items is not always available, it can be very powerful. In other campaigns where buying items is available pretty much constantly, buying the items is faster and not more expensive.
My understanding is that you can eke a bit of extra efficiency when crafting lower-level items in bulk, as it basically lets you use the lower DCs to do well rolling for the effective income of your base skill. I'm not sure how much of a big deal it is, though.
At the same time, if you *really* want to optimize effective downtime income, you'd be doing things like building an Irongut Goblin city scavenger. for earning income (with a bonus) while also getting a free subsist check... or (again with the Goblin) taking Junk Tinker so that you can scavenge some of the materials for those scrolls from dubious sources for fun and profit. What? It's perfectly good ratskin, it is. Still got some of the fur on it and everything.
My understanding is that you can eke a bit of extra efficiency when crafting lower-level items in bulk, as it basically lets you use the lower DCs to do well rolling for the effective income of your base skill. I'm not sure how much of a big deal it is, though.
Yeah, it is possible. That is also campaign dependent though. In this case, dependent on the campaign having a lot of downtime available that you don't want to use for something else.
And it is also a marginal amount of gain. Something along the lines of tens of gold per week at mid levels - where things cost hundreds of gold.
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If it's just AoE blasting, shatter mind psychic has a clean 3 turn rotation
Amp shatter mind
Unleash psyche, amp shatter mind
Amp shatter mind
Amp shatter mind scales at 1d10 (5.5) points per rank which is slightly behind fireball's standard of 2d6 (7) but comes with that big unleash bonus on two casts. 60ft cone with no friendly fire is a great shape. Focus points are a renewable resource. If you're in 30ft you can tack on psi bursts for another instance of damage that scales the same as spells during your unleash turns. Can also choose to use tools like strain mind during important fights to get a 4th amp shatter mind. The deranged can dip into familiar master or something to use familiar focus for a bonus cast 1/day as well.
The big flaw being mental immune enemies, but you have spell slots for that.
Focus spells are not a trap, but they are more useful if you play well past level 10 and not as much if you don't.
Elemental and Dragon Sorc have a good AoE blast focus spell to help with sustaining blasting. It maxes at around 18d6 AoE. The elemental AoE focus spell has a shapeable area you can choose each time you use it.
Now I also like sustain damage AoE spells like phantom orchestra.
Now my advice comes with a grain of salt. I often play to level 10 plus and level 16 plus. So my view of blasting is always with having all my focus spells available and possibly accessing Effortless Concentration, which is a huge action economy booster for blasting with a sustain spell. Once your past 16, it is good to get a sustain damage spell going if you expect the fight to last a bit.
Fights at high level often don't last very long unless you have poorly built martials and a lack of group tactics, so you have to think about when the best time to use a sustain AoE damage spell is.
If you're used to reaching around level 10 or so and maxing the campaign around there. Super Bidi probably has a better idea of how to blasting well in that range. I always plan my characters for higher end blasting all the way to 20.
I get the feeling the sorcerer's power isn't really felt until they reach 10th level plus with their full array of focus spells. If you're not playing well past level 10, you won't be able to see and enjoy the power of elemental blast or consuming shadows.
[i]Fireball[/b] seems to be a bread and butter AoE spell for a lot of levels.
Once you hit 11, the blasting spells become pretty nice. Phantasmal Calamity, Arrow Salvo, Eclipse Burst, Vampiric Exsanguination, Chain Lightning, and quite a few others. Prior to level 11 you're stuck with the old standbys with maybe some type variation like fireball and cone of cold. I've personally found fireball is probably the most used AoE spell up to around level 10 for its range and easier placement. Cones are usable, but a bit trickier to place depending on the terrain and party location.
Blasting is very fun and viable in PF2. It gets better as you level.
Yep I played an elemental sorcerer from level 9 to 20. At high levels they had huge damage potential through focus spells, effortless concentration, dangerous sorcery/elemental bloodline, and buff spells.
It's funny though, even though I did a ton of damage, towards the end of the game I spent most of my turns on utility. Poaching spells like synesthesia and roaring applause meant that my turns were better spent casting those spells most of the time. Having a bunch of buffing, healing, and control spells meant that I rarely had time to blast; but when I did it was awesome.
All this to say, it doesn't take much to optimize a blaster caster. Pick any of the suggestions listed here, and then you can branch out to do a bunch more cool stuff which is a major point of the archetype, imo.
I do find I spend more time controlling and debuffing than blasting as its a more efficient and effective use of spell power at higher level save a few fights with a ton of mooks where you just can't resist dropping a pain bomb on them.
An AoE Slow is often more effective than a blast. Then read a book while the martials kill the things. I always imagine my casters reading or working on some hobby as they adventure while the martials do all the grunty, dirty work of fighting. They keep themselves clean and provide the magic to make the fight easy.
Looking to play an arcane caster just because the party already contains a primal and divine caster. An occult caster would be ok too but they are looking for a blaster and I'm not sold on Occults blasting ability. I have no idea which class is best here for the blaster so I am looking for someone who can provide advice on race, attributes, class, which MC to dip into etc. the campaign goes to level 20, current level is 12.
One of the interesting things about the arcane caster is that they really don't really need to specialize in build choices to be a good blaster. They just need to have the right blasting spell available to them in the situation that calls for it, which can be a bit of a challenge when you have such a large spell list. There are a handful of "these spells are usually the right blasting spells" to have, but the meta on those is changing a little bit between the remaster and the original PF2 rules, especially as it looks like monster stats might be changing a fair bit as well (including more lower AC level -1 monsters and a willingness to throw on more weaknesses to old "classics").
For an obvious level 1 (as in level 1 character experience) example, Force Barrage has been a great single target boss killer spell that no other 1st rank spell was really able touch without a lot of luck. Like, Thunderstrike eventually becomes a better heightened option than Force Barrage against many enemies, but not for several levels and without being fairly rigorous in keeping track of enemy defenses that you have been fighting and doing what you can to gather that information in advance, it can be easy to make assumptions about what spells to bring that can lead to player frustration, especially with limited numbers of spell slots.
This is why I personally much prefer the wizard to the sorcerer for an arcane caster, because I like to switch up what spells I cast a lot, and will happily spend 75% to 90% of my gold before level 5 on scrolls.
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buy a few max rank scrolls rather than a bunch of Max rank-1 scrolls
My advice was for a level 12+ game. Before level 10 you buy only max rank scrolls. After level 10, the difference between a max rank spell and a max-1 rank spell begins to be really small while the difference in price is still extremely high. So you'd start to prefer having tons of scrolls even if they are slightly weaker.
Though, hmmm...18 blazing vs 21 fireball ave dpr...can't see it being worth it too often
As a Kineticist, there's not that much point in grabbing blasting spells as you are supposed to get them from your class. The difference is still higher than what you say, as the Fireball is a Blast and not a Cone and because the Blazing Wave doesn't improve as fast as a Fireball when Heightened (also, why taking a Fireball when you already have a Fire-based spell... Well, because you can take only that, but casters will have a variety of elements to cover resistances and weaknesses).
Focus spells are not a trap
I disagree on that. The issue with Focus Spells is that they deal less damage than slotted spells and that you are "pushed" to use them during the first round. The actual result is a significant loss of damage. If you use them during the third or fourth round then they are fine. But at that stage, their impact is so low that you wonder if it was worth the feat.
Overall, it's better to entirely forget about them while learning how to blast and potentially add them to your rotation later on than to start with them and try to use them as chances are high you'll misuse them and cripple your damage output.
If it's just AoE blasting, shatter mind psychic has a clean 3 turn rotation
There are 2 exceptions to "Focus spells are a trap": Shatter Mind and Debilitating Dichotomy. But both of them need a specific class (and subclass) to be used that's why I prefer not to speak too much about them. But I agree, a Shatter Mind build is a great blaster.
Fights at high level often don't last very long unless you have poorly built martials and a lack of group tactics, so you have to think about when the best time to use a sustain AoE damage spell is.
I had a very different experience. I don't have your experience with high level but from my experience high level fights tend to last longer due to 2 factors:
- Mooks are damage sponges. At low level, mooks die fast. But at high level they really are tough and some fights may last just because the mooks do a good job at taking the damage instead of the bosses.- There are much more effects that block damaging abilities. Invisibility, strong debuffs, save or suck spells, reactions, fly, hit and run, etc... are much more common at high level. As a result, and despite an unbalanced experience between low and high level, all my longest fights happened after level 10.
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buy a few max rank scrolls rather than a bunch of Max rank-1 scrollsMy advice was for a level 12+ game. Before level 10 you buy only max rank scrolls. After level 10, the difference between a max rank spell and a max-1 rank spell begins to be really small while the difference in price is still extremely high. So you'd start to prefer having tons of scrolls even if they are slightly weaker.
Though, hmmm...18 blazing vs 21 fireball ave dpr...can't see it being worth it too oftenAs a Kineticist, there's not that much point in grabbing blasting spells as you are supposed to get them from your class. The difference is still higher than what you say, as the Fireball is a Blast and not a Cone and because the Blazing Wave doesn't improve as fast as a Fireball when Heightened (also, why taking a Fireball when you already have a Fire-based spell... Well, because you can take only that, but casters will have a variety of elements to cover resistances and weaknesses).
Focus spells are not a trapI disagree on that. The issue with Focus Spells is that they deal less damage than slotted spells and that you are "pushed" to use them during the first round. The actual result is a significant loss of damage. If you use them during the third or fourth round then they are fine. But at that stage, their impact is so low that you wonder if it was worth the feat.
Overall, it's better to entirely forget about them while learning how to blast and potentially add them to your rotation later on than to start with them and try to use them as chances are high you'll misuse them and cripple your damage output.
If it's just AoE blasting, shatter mind psychic has a clean 3 turn rotationThere are 2 exceptions to "Focus spells are a trap": Shatter Mind and Debilitating Dichotomy. But both of them need a specific class (and subclass) to be used that's why I prefer not to speak too much about them. But I agree, a...
Focus spells help sustain so you can save slots in fights where blasting a high level slot is unnecessary while still maintaining a higher level of damage. I can guarantee a 14 to 18d6 AoE that costs no slot with a basis reflex save works just fine at high level for sustaining blasting damage. So does a 6 to 10d8 1 action blast that doesn't use a save.
I have personally used consuming shadows with Effortless Concentration and it is a great damage stacking spell for a sustain action while blasting you can use all day.
Focus spells are definitely not a trap and help your daily blasting sustain. There are a lot of fights your martials can handle super easy, so you don't need to unload a high level slot.
I thought that would be the case for high level mooks as well. But it isn't the case. Level-2 to 4 mooks get crit a lot and with striking and property rune stacking it tends to equate to a roughly similar amount of time. Whoever did the math for kill speeds layered it fairly well in PF2 so that even high level fights don't take that long.
It's not level 1 one shot kills, but still in the 3 to 4 round range.
Even today we fought 6 mooks with 230 hit points each and a 450 hit point mook and we planted them in 4 to 5 rounds. This was a main boss fight.
We also planted three 300 plus hit point mini-bosses in four rounds.
High level martials backed up by casters do pretty nutty damage. Their crits are pretty nuts. Casters do what I call layered damage and effects where they trivialize fights with things like AoE slow with a sustain spell like phantom orchestra with a blast to really tear down the targets.
It's why I don't see the caster-martial disparity at higher level. A caster can match martial damage casting a few spells on top of using a control strategy. One big blast with a mix of fails, crit fails, and successes adds up to a brutal amount of damage. Then a sustain damage spell with Effortless Concentration layers in more damage. So you do maybe two rounds of blasting along with a control spells like 6th level slow and you pretty much made the entire fight a cakewalk for the martials.
If you have something like a giant barbarian with haste whirlwind attacking or a flurrying monk or a fighter crit hammering or a magus smashing things, they die quick.
I think the average damage for our monk per hit using the new Heaven's Thunder is 3d8+11 +1d6 holy 1d6 Force with +6 sonic/electrical damage using wolf jaws with flank and sneak attack from rogue archetype is 40 per hit. If they crit a lot, 80 per hit.
And the monk isn't even a great damage dealer.
Our Starlit Span imaginary weapon archer at 16th level is doing 3d8+8 +1 d6 force +1d6 Runic Impression 8d8+4 imaginary weapon. 28 plus 40 or 68 a hit. When they crit, oh boy, just insane. They crit a ton against mooks.
Bosses often get debuffed with synesthesia with trip, so their ACs are often 5 less.
No way to spell it all out. High level characters do truck tons of damage. And they can carve up a 250 to 300 point enemy up real fast, even faster if weaknesses are exploited.
Main thing to avoid is spreading damage. If your group has one person attacking each mook by themselves, then you spread the damage and it can take a long time. If you are focus firing on a high level mook to take them off the board, they die real quick.
The reality with casters is they don't need to specialize in PF2. It does almost nothing for you. There aren't feats to support it. You aren't very limited as a casters. Spells are built really powerful from the ground up and don't require type specialization for a benefit like they did in PF1.
Every caster has some decent blast spells using a high DC to resist it. It's a built in part of the game. So the idea of building a blaster caster is not really necessary in PF2.
I take high value spells of different kinds and use them as appropriate. I know the high value focus spells and have already tested them in battle. I have no desire to blow off a bunch of slots when I have perfectly well built and capable martials to crush things using an unlimited daily resource. I'd rather sustain and use spells to apply the necessary leverage for an easy victory.
I understand some people want to cast spells often and enjoy that playstle for personal reasons. I much prefer to play to the strengths of the PF2 system which is built for coordinated group play with casters applying a variety of different spell effects to win easy. Blast a little, slow a lot, debuff as necessary, heal a bit, beat the enemies.
I don't see any benefit to building a blaster. That was fun in PF1 because that system was built to reward focused blasting builds if that is what you wanted to do. But PF2 is built so a caster can be all things all the time with a few key high value spells slotted. So that's what I focus on.
One of the fun things about scrolls for casters is that at low levels you can actually afford to buy level +1 scrolls relatively easily and have a pretty substantial leg up for a really difficult fight.
For example, it is not uncommon to face an AP boss at level 4. Having a rank 3 scroll at hand, whether that is fireball, lightning bolt, or a slow, can really break the math of a challenging fight. This is also really true at level 2, when you can afford a couple of rank 2 scrolls pretty easily. I imagine this would work for a kineticist as well, but they really have to be saving up for their gate attenuators.
I know a lot of players dislike the learning a spell mechanic of witches and wizards, but I find the ability to get something else out of a scroll a nice plus, especially since you can learn spells you can’t yet cast. I find it encourages me to keep finding new spells to test out.
As an aside, another important part of optimizing blaster casting is team work with your martials or other casters. There are now tons of ways to do damage in ways that give weaknesses for other characters to exploit or do damage and debuff that can synergize very well. Just be careful about action economy because a first round given over to setting up round 2 can easily result in either a lot of wasted casting or a vital character dropping and your spell basically doing nothing. (I have seen this with magic weapon/runic weapon multiple times). When the combat has already started, spells that damage and debuff/set up an ally are much better than spells that only buff/debuff. This is part of why phantasmal killer was such a popular pre-remaster spell. I have no high level remaster experience yet, so the new spells/changes to spells all feel new to me, but it feels like a lot of the changes were centered around seeing the sticking points players were having with casters.
More info on blasting. Spells tend to take jumps at 3rd and 6th level spells.
Your first big blasty jump is 3rd level fireball. Which does 6d6 up to 10d6 at 5th level spell.
Your next jump is 6th to 9th level spells. Chain Lightning does 8d12 to 11d12. Sunburst does 8d10 fire and 8d10 positive (very good against undead) up to 11d10. Most of the spells do the same relative damage with additional effects and shapes from 6th to 9th. Level 10 surprisingly doesn't have huge blasting spells.
Thing about blasting some folks focus on is using your highest level slots. That is not necessary unless you've taken your first big jump up which happens with 6th level spells. As you level higher, you can keep using 6th or 7th level spells for primary blasting for minimal damage differences.
Horrid wilting is an 8th level spells doing 10d10 damage. Is that going to be much better than an 8d12 chain lightning? Or an 8d10 sunburst or eclipse burst? Nope.
Once you reach the big dog blasting spells in level 6 to 8 spell level range, you'll be using those quite a bit. And it's pretty easy once you get higher level to have a bunch of 6th or 7th level scrolls to keep casting those nice blasting spells.
Level 10 is 1 or 2 slots. It doesn't have a huge amount of blasting. I think cataclysm may be the best blasting spell. Shadow Army is a decent spell too. You'll likely just heighten one of your blasting spells.
At high level slots from 6th to 10th all become good blasting slots supplemented by wands, staves, and scrolls on top of a good focus spell.
You'll also likely want some control spells because 6th level slow is one of the most powerful spells in the game. I often use it with reach spell, one of the most powerful metamagic feats in the game. One 6th level slow spell will do more to slow down enemies and their damage than any other spell in the game the majority of the time.
It's to the point where any enemy with spell immunity or spell reflection should be using it on a slow spell trying to land on them. If that spell lands, the enemy is usually done. If it crit fails, you basically turn dangerous threats into molasses slow bags of hit points.
To get back to blasting, once you're in the 6th level spell range your blast spells will be good from 6th to 10th, all your slots. So you'll have plenty of slot and spell flexibility so you don't have to rely on your highest level spells.
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Focus spells are not a trap, but they are more useful if you play well past level 10 and not as much if you don't.
If you think focus spells are a trap then you haven't got a good one. If you really don't like the 2 action focus spells because it is one dice down on a top level spell slot, then there are single action and free action options.
I find that often in a tight encounter you spend a couple of slots which may or may not be blasts, a couple of focus spell blasts, then you can probably just use cantrips for the clean up. Having reasonable focus spells really extends the casters ability to handle a longer adventuring day.
Most casters should have 2 focus points by level 4/6. Though Wizards are probably not getting there till level 8 if they don't go with an archetype. At least one of your 2 focus spells should be a common combat option.
Focus spells are not a trap, but they are more useful if you play well past level 10 and not as much if you don't.If you think focus spells are a trap then you haven't got a good one. If you really don't like the 2 action focus spells because it is one dice down on a top level spell slot, then there are single action and free action options.
I find that often in a tight encounter you spend a couple of slots which may or may not be blasts, a couple of focus spell blasts, then you can probably just use cantrips for the clean up. Having reasonable focus spells really extends the casters ability to handle a longer adventuring day.
Most casters should have 2 focus points by level 4/6. Though Wizards are probably not getting there till level 8 if they don't go with an archetype. At least one of their 2 focus spells should be a common combat option.
Yep. Just allows you to layer in more damage with a all day resource. Good focus spells provide options and do some nifty stuff automatically heightened.
I'm trying a Nymph Sorc next. I can't stop making sorcerers. Blinding Beauty, Establish Ward, and Nymph Token all look pretty great to me.
Sorc with a Charisma focus has such immense role versatility in groups. They are hard to beat. So far I've done Elemental, Shadow, Harrow, and Imperial. All were great. I've seen a draconic sorcerer. It seemed to work nicely too. Now I will try Nymph. Sorcs are so fun and versatile to make.
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When assessing the value of Focus spells, it's important to remember that the standard adventuring day is supposed to have 3 encounters.
So, as opposed to Cantrips, you do not have unlimited amounts of Focus spells casting but between 3 and 9 castings in a standard adventuring day.
Also, AFAIK, there is no way to spend wealth on getting more castings of Focus spells, like buying scrolls does for slotted spells.
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I believe each class with focus spells gets an item circa levels 9-11 (e.g. Druid's Vestments) that provides an extra focus point per day, along with some other benefits. Not quite the same as a scroll but it is a way to get an extra focus spell from an item.
When assessing the value of Focus spells, it's important to remember that the standard adventuring day is supposed to have 3 encounters.
So, as opposed to Cantrips, you do not have unlimited amounts of Focus spells casting but between 3 and 9 castings in a standard adventuring day.
Also, AFAIK, there is no way to spend wealth on getting more castings of Focus spells, like buying scrolls does for slotted spells.
What do you mean? Focus spells can be used all day as long as you can find the rest period. Why would you need to obtain more with wealth?
Even if the DM only makes 3 encounters, they can use their focus spells for each encounter with a 10 minute rest.
If the DM makes 5 encounters, they can use them 5 encounters.
IF the DM makes 10 encounter, they can use use them for 10 encounters.
Focus spells are only limited by the rest period to regain focus points.
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I believe each class with focus spells gets an item circa levels 9-11 (e.g. Druid's Vestments) that provides an extra focus point per day, along with some other benefits. Not quite the same as a scroll but it is a way to get an extra focus spell from an item.
Thank you. I did not remember this.
Playing PFS, it will not have an impact but it's good to know.
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When assessing the value of Focus spells, it's important to remember that the standard adventuring day is supposed to have 3 encounters.
So, as opposed to Cantrips, you do not have unlimited amounts of Focus spells casting but between 3 and 9 castings in a standard adventuring day.
Also, AFAIK, there is no way to spend wealth on getting more castings of Focus spells, like buying scrolls does for slotted spells.
What do you mean? Focus spells can be used all day as long as you can find the rest period. Why would you need to obtain more with wealth?
Even if the DM only makes 3 encounters, they can use their focus spells for each encounter with a 10 minute rest.
If the DM makes 5 encounters, they can use them 5 encounters.
IF the DM makes 10 encounter, they can use use them for 10 encounters.
Focus spells are only limited by the rest period to regain focus points.
Rereading my post, I realize my lack of mastery in English made me use the wrong words.
I should have said that you do not USE unlimited amounts of Focus spells casting in encounters in a standard 3-encounters adventuring day.
You are quite right that you can use Focus spells all day long. Or more precisely, 3+24x6 times max (without focus point boosters such as the one mentioned above). So 147 castings of Focus spells per 24h.
All this reminds me of how powerful slotted spells feel when you are doing lengthy hexploration with usually at most one encounter a day.
When assessing the value of Focus spells, it's important to remember that the standard adventuring day is supposed to have 3 encounters.
So, as opposed to Cantrips, you do not have unlimited amounts of Focus spells casting but between 3 and 9 castings in a standard adventuring day.
Also, AFAIK, there is no way to spend wealth on getting more castings of Focus spells, like buying scrolls does for slotted spells.
What do you mean? Focus spells can be used all day as long as you can find the rest period. Why would you need to obtain more with wealth?
Even if the DM only makes 3 encounters, they can use their focus spells for each encounter with a 10 minute rest.
If the DM makes 5 encounters, they can use them 5 encounters.
IF the DM makes 10 encounter, they can use use them for 10 encounters.
Focus spells are only limited by the rest period to regain focus points.
Rereading my post, I realize my lack of mastery in English made me use the wrong words.
I should have said that you do not USE unlimited amounts of Focus spells casting in encounters in a standard 3-encounters adventuring day.
You are quite right that you can use Focus spells all day long. Or more precisely, 3+24x6 times max (without focus point boosters such as the one mentioned above). So 147 castings of Focus spells per 24h.
All this reminds me of how powerful slotted spells feel when you are doing lengthy hexploration with usually at most one encounter a day.
I understand.
That is true. Slotted spells feel way stronger if you can blow off your top levels and rest doing 1 or 2 encounters a day.
It's also why I don't see the value of the wizard. Seems you're either doing 1 or 2 encounters a day and sorc can blow off just fine. Or your doing a long bunch of rooms with moderate to low encounter values the martials can easily handle and you can blow some focus spells off to do better than cantrip damage or a nice AoE effect, then save your slots for the hard stuff.
I've made multiple wizards and their "cast the most high level slots" never seems particularly useful.
The most useful I've seen the wizard is when dealing with non-combat problems or when preparing a raid on some known target where you have time to prepare to do a utility/insertion loadout. Most casters load their high level slots with blast, debuff, and control spells whether a wizard or sorc.
So your main advantage as a wizard is when it comes to support/utility during noncombat or when needing an unusual spell loadout for a particular target. Then the wizard shines because they can change their loadout given a day and can even quickly go and buy and learn some spells if needed.
For general combat play and such, the ability to exploit weaknesses is vastly oversold. Stuff dies fast and easy with caster supported martials doing their thing. A battle loadout isn't very noticeable.
But the utility is definitely noticeable for using spells like viel, invisibility sphere, setting up ambushes, interrogations with charm or mind probe, and similar stuff. Then the wizard shines pretty well, especially if no one has done a skill loadout to handle those situations.
That's I always wonder about folks asking for more skill ups as a wizard. The wizard is the guy with access to spells that do what Legendary skills do and more. His specialty is finding the right spell for the job and solving problems with magic, not skills. Solving things with skills the purview of rogues or investigators.
The wizard shines at solving problems with magic. Every caster can do a quality battle loadout. But only the wizard can adjust outside of combat as often as needed to solve a wide variety of issues that call for unusual spell loadouts.
It doesn't come up super often, but when it does being able to change spells is nice.
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Focus spells help sustain so you can save slots
I have personally used consuming shadows with Effortless Concentration and it is a great damage stacking spell for a sustain action while blasting you can use all day.
Focus spells are definitely not a trap and help your daily blasting sustain. There are a lot of fights your martials can handle super easy, so you don't need to unload a high level slot.
You haven't left the scarcity mentality. So your damage expectations is half as mine (if not a third).
I've looked at Consuming Shadows, it was not even worth the minute to read it. If I want to deal negligible damage, I don't have to invest a level 10 feat for that.
Try to cast a rank-1 Chain Lightning every single round of every single fight (quite easily achieved once you get to level 13 as rank-1 Scrolls are cheap) and you'll understand what are my standards in terms of blasting.
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For a regular game, what you're saying is completely unrealistic.
First thing first: I manage to do it. So, it is somehow achievable.
Let us say that you have 4 4 round battles per day
4 round battles?
It means 4 Chain Lightnings. At level 13, it means 32d12 damage for an average of 208 damage per enemy, let's take 75% of that as enemies will surely succeed as much as they fail and you end up with 156 damage per enemy. A level 13 creature has 235 damage on average, so you dealt 2/3rd of the encounter damage all alone in 4 rounds (without even counting Dangerous Sorcery or any damaging third action). I'm pretty sure your allies can be slightly more efficient than that.Yes, fights where you are the only one really able to affect the enemies will last that long and cost that many resources, but for most fights you'll have hard time casting the 3rd spell as the enemies will be dead by now.
As long as you don't go over 5-fight adventuring days, it's easy to achieve. You'll in general use 2 spells per fight, a third at most. Considering a Sorcerer or Wizard with 8 spells of their 2 highest level you are looking for a couple of Scrolls for the longer adventuring days.
And the really long adventuring days of more than 5 significant fights are a rarity in my experience (and should be covered with your stack of Scrolls anyway unless the GM goes crazy on fights).
Leaving the scarcity mentality is hard, but it works.
Focus spells help sustain so you can save slots
I have personally used consuming shadows with Effortless Concentration and it is a great damage stacking spell for a sustain action while blasting you can use all day.
Focus spells are definitely not a trap and help your daily blasting sustain. There are a lot of fights your martials can handle super easy, so you don't need to unload a high level slot.
You haven't left the scarcity mentality. So your damage expectations is half as mine (if not a third).
I've looked at Consuming Shadows, it was not even worth the minute to read it. If I want to deal negligible damage, I don't have to invest a level 10 feat for that.
Try to cast a rank-1 Chain Lightning every single round of every single fight (quite easily achieved once you get to level 13 as rank-1 Scrolls are cheap) and you'll understand what are my standards in terms of blasting.
My damage expectations for what? You are not making sense.
So your damage expectations are higher even when I have posted multiple times that damage casters do the highest damage in the game and the druid is one of the highest damage dealing classes in the game. I've tracked damage against all martial types, the druid has still outdamaged them many, many times over the course of adventures. Yet somehow I have low damage expectations? Hmm. Ok. I doubt that's the case, but you can think that if you want.
I've played a bunch of sorcs and druid damage casters. They are better than wizards at bringing the hammer, though the wizard may have closed the gap some with the simple weapon proficiency. One of the big ways I ramp damage is building out a weapon and using it as my 1 action option, which beats things like force missile.
Not sure why you're pretending focus spells are bad when you don't even use them to find out which ones are good. I know all the good focus spells, when to use them, and at what level they really start to pay off. But you've written them all off because you think you know how they work in battle without bothering to use them.
Focus spells are another tool in the box. It's not different than learning the best spells on a spell list. You learn the best focus spells and when and how to use them. There are quite a few that are very good and provide useful effects and damage stacking.
The best way to damage as a caster if you want to max caster damage is layering damage. Casters have all the tools for creating layered damage that exceeds what martials do as you progress in level.
Chain lightning? Really? I've played a bunch of druids. I use chain lightning a ton. It is a great spell. Tons of damage. Wrecks groups of creatures.
A level 13 creature has 235 damage on average, so you dealt 2/3rd of the encounter damage all alone in 4 rounds (without even counting Dangerous Sorcery or any damaging third action).
What third action? Didn't you use your first action pulling out the scroll?
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My damage expectations for what? You are not making sense.
You're right, I can't know your damage expectations precisely. So I take it back.
Still, you value things I ruled out at some point for being too weak. Weapons are not really bad but way too expensive for the impact. And a spell like Consuming Shadow is one I completely disregard.Not sure why you're pretending focus spells are bad when you don't even use them to find out which ones are good.
I don't exactly say they are bad, I say they are a trap. Roughly, they tend to push you back into the scarcity mentality that will prevent you from dealing really high levels of damage. If you use them during the 3rd or 4th round of combat to finish the last enemies, they are fine. But it's rarely how people use them.
Also, I speak about 2-action ones, the 1-action Focus Spells are fine as third actions. But third actions account for less than 10% of your whole damage output.I have posted multiple times that damage casters do the highest damage in the game
Actually, I don't fully agree with your method of calculation for 2 reasons:
- You are valuing multi-target damage as much as single-target damage. 60 damage to a single creature is definitely better than 10 damage to 6 creatures. Even if I agree that perfect focus fire is a rarity.- You don't separate early damage and late damage. It's really important to consider the damage done before the fight enters the "wrap up" phase. Also, first round damage has a very high impact, often shaping the rest of the fight.
What third action? Didn't you use your first action pulling out the scroll?
No, I don't use actions to pull out Scrolls. At least not often enough to grab an Independent, Dexterous Familiar.
if a GM gives more loot than appropriate, then as I said, it is achievable.
It is achievable with the money you save on runes. Unless you tell me that a fully runed weapon is not a standard expectation?
A fully runed weapon is 9 items, roughly. And permanent items cost 6 times the price of consumable ones (even if runes are slightly cheaper). It makes a bunch of Scrolls every 2 levels (I buy 2-3 Scrolls per spell rank, so it's not even what I save from the weapon).
My damage expectations for what? You are not making sense.You're right, I can't know your damage expectations precisely. So I take it back.
Still, you value things I ruled out at some point for being too weak. Weapons are not really bad but way too expensive for the impact. And a spell like Consuming Shadow is one I completely disregard.Not sure why you're pretending focus spells are bad when you don't even use them to find out which ones are good.I don't exactly say they are bad, I say they are a trap. Roughly, they tend to push you back into the scarcity mentality that will prevent you from dealing really high levels of damage. If you use them during the 3rd or 4th round of combat to finish the last enemies, they are fine. But it's rarely how people use them.
Also, I speak about 2-action ones, the 1-action Focus Spells are fine as third actions. But third actions account for less than 10% of your whole damage output.I have posted multiple times that damage casters do the highest damage in the gameActually, I don't fully agree with your method of calculation for 2 reasons:
- You are valuing multi-target damage as much as single-target damage. 60 damage to a single creature is definitely better than 10 damage to 6 creatures. Even if I agree that perfect focus fire is a rarity.
- You don't separate early damage and late damage. It's really important to consider the damage done before the fight enters the "wrap up" phase. Also, first round damage has a very high impact, often shaping the rest of the fight.What third action? Didn't you use your first action pulling out the scroll?No, I don't use actions to pull out Scrolls. At least not often enough to grab an Independent, Dexterous Familiar.
if a GM gives more loot than appropriate, then as I said, it is achievable.It is achievable with the money you save on runes....
What you call the scarcity mentality I think of as the efficiency mentality.
We don't do daily rests too often or even room rests. We might push on and do 5 rooms or an entire dungeon without much of a rest or downtime. In a recent dungeon we attacked a troll fort, we didn't stop going room to room until we reached the king. Which was about 10 plus rooms. The martials didn't want to wait because they had heroism going and wanted to use it as often as possible, so we stayed in encounter mode for 10 rooms or so.
You have to play efficiently to play like this. This is how my group plays unless they get wrecked and have to rest.
I can't really blow everything off even with scrolls if I know the martials are going to want to push on room to room to room in encounter mode so as to use their heroism in as many rooms as possible.
a spell like Consuming Shadow is one I completely disregard
I can't find such a spell. If you mean Consuming Darkness yes it is a slow sustain and I agree the damage is too weak for what it is.
a spell like Consuming Shadow is one I completely disregardI can't find such a spell. If you mean Consuming Darkness yes it is a slow sustain and I agree the damage is too weak for what it is.
Yes. Consuming Darkness. The damage adds up against multiple targets which is when you use it. Stacks with blasting. And is in essence free at level 16 plus with a movement control component which goes off regularly in mook battles at that level. And it only targets enemies, so your people can fight within it without difficulty.
A weapon is easy to build out with runes.
You don't need maxed out energy runes. Greater runes don't do more damage. They usually have higher save DCs against their crit effects or eliminate resistance which really doesn't matter if you take thundering or holy. Which the first level is cheap.
So a 1 action weapon option is something you build out using pick up runes or cheap standard runes without upgrade.