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Kineticists aren't really slow though? You have decent range and no particularly complicated setup to get going (you do have some later-round options in overflows but that's not quite the same). It's not like you're a wildshape druid who basically has to do nothing the first round of every combat or a psychic whose combat gimmick can't activate until round 2.
Plus I'm not sure "we like easy encounters on large battle maps where everything dies before we can get into position" really makes sense as a knock against any specific class, so much as just a quirky set of table circumstances.
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That's the real problem when your damage isn't great or you don't operate at great range in a well built party like I play in. They will massacre everything before a slower moving class even gets a chance to act.
It's one of those things that doesn't get talked about when you're comparing power gamers or optimizers in the balance equation. If the classes are unequal or slow, then the other party members playing higher powered or more optimal classes slaughter everything before you even take an action. So you really learn quick which classes are underwhelming when everything is getting slaughtered before you can really do much or your damage is piddly while they just destroy everything.
Are you talking about the standard game and rules, or the heavily houseruled/modded version that you have mentioned on these threads before? Or am I confusing you with someone else on these forums. That is possible too.
The point is that 'slaughter everything before I get a second turn' isn't the standard gameplay that I hear about.
Kineticists aren't really slow though? You have decent range and no particularly complicated setup to get going (you do have some later-round options in overflows but that's not quite the same). It's not like you're a wildshape druid who basically has to do nothing the first round of every combat or a psychic whose combat gimmick can't activate until round 2.
Plus I'm not sure "we like easy encounters on large battle maps where everything dies before we can get into position" really makes sense as a knock against any specific class, so much as just a quirky set of table circumstances.
Slow at dealing damage.
That's the real problem when your damage isn't great or you don't operate at great range in a well built party like I play in. They will massacre everything before a slower moving class even gets a chance to act.
It's one of those things that doesn't get talked about when you're comparing power gamers or optimizers in the balance equation. If the classes are unequal or slow, then the other party members playing higher powered or more optimal classes slaughter everything before you even take an action. So you really learn quick which classes are underwhelming when everything is getting slaughtered before you can really do much or your damage is piddly while they just destroy everything.
Are you talking about the standard game and rules, or the heavily houseruled/modded version that you have mentioned on these threads before? Or am I confusing you with someone else on these forums. That is possible too.
The point is that 'slaughter everything before I get a second turn' isn't the standard gameplay that I hear about.
We have no house rules for martials other than the swashbuckler because of how bad they were. We house ruled casters to make them better, but martials exist as they are in the book, no modification.
I'm not sure why you're not seeing fighters, barbs, rogues, and magus ripping things apart with the crit rules. Well built members of the four classes I listed destroy enemies very, very fast. Their damage is high and spikes on a crit and as they get more feats to activate reactions.
A kineticist has few if any reaction attacks. Most of their powers are 30 to 60 feet, which is usually a Sudden Charge opening attack for a martial.
I'm surprised you don't see this. The three of the four classes mentioned (excluding magus) generally get Perception bumps earlier than other martial classes or the kineticist, have good reaction attacks, scaling damage, and can close 60 feet plus super easy with Sudden Charge or just move very fast. When they hit and crit, they hit real hard. You have a few in your group, they should slaughter things very quickly. If you can't deal big chunk damage, you may not get another round of attacks after they go.
I'm not sure how many tables track speed to kill. We all know who kills the fastest and those classes tend to be the most popular at our table. Hit hard, hit fast, destroy enemy. No house rules needed for those four classes. Paizo built them very, very well for PF2.
The barb, fighter, and rogue are the primary reason I felt comfortable house ruling casters. Casting the right spell at the right time was one of the few ways casters could compete with the slaughter fest those three classes can accomplish if built well.
As I've seen on these boards many times, experiences differ and most folks don't track speed to kill or things like that. It's not important to them like it is to my group. If you ever feel like seeing for yourself, give it a shot. Track damage and how fast things die with those classes compared to say a swash or a ranger.
I'm still not making a final definitive on the Kineticist because I feel like their scaling will be better at higher level. I want to see that first.
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I'm not sure why you're not seeing fighters, barbs, rogues, and magus ripping things apart with the crit rules. Well built members of the four classes I listed destroy enemies very, very fast. Their damage is high and spikes on a crit and as they get more feats to activate reactions.
Oh, I do. Sometimes. In encounters that are suited to those types of combatants.
But the games that I am in have a wide variety of combats and needed methods and tactics to deal with them. Having everyone Sudden Charge an enemy - especially if they do so staggered rather than by grouping their initiative so that they act immediately after each other - can end in disaster as often as it results in victory. And in other encounters, it isn't even an option since the terrain wouldn't allow for it. Or because the enemy is ambushing the party and combat starts at close range already.
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We have no house rules for martials other than the swashbuckler because of how bad they were. We house ruled casters to make them better, but martials exist as they are in the book, no modification.
Also, do realize that Kineticist is closer to a caster class than a martial class.
So if you are houseruling casters to make them better, you will likely need to houserule Kineticist as well.
We have no house rules for martials other than the swashbuckler because of how bad they were. We house ruled casters to make them better, but martials exist as they are in the book, no modification.Also, do realize that Kineticist is closer to a caster class than a martial class.
So if you are houseruling casters to make them better, you will likely need to houserule Kineticist as well.
Maybe, but the Kin is Con based which makes their hit points higher.
They get Legendary Fort and Master reflex.
They have some powerful scaling powers like their auras and immunities as well as more gate junctions and powers.
I'm level 9. So not seen what the higher level powers can do like being able to effortlessly sustain an impulse at level 12 and expand the aura to 20 feet.
I'm patient. I'll see what they can do over the 15 to 20 levels before I modify. Some classes start slower than others and end up in a good place. Casters worked this way.
I also don't get such gameplay experience Firelion.
OK that melee Martials and 3-actions Magus/Eldritch Archers doing more damage than Kineticist, OK that Sorcerer Spells and Focus Spells doing large AoE damage but my encounters usually doesn't end faster than 3 rounds (and commoly a bit more rounds in mid to high levels) to a point that's like an initiative order make a killing speedrun to a point that looks like that a kineticist, psychic or any other class that needs to move or use some prepare actions like rage, hunt pray and so on.
Also I can say that about 90% of encounters specially for APs are in-door or the battle map isn't so large to a point that turns the Kineticist range too short.
I want to use flame cone, but it is 3 actions and overflow. I found the activation of the aura while moving is not so great action economy. It's nice to get the blast off or start the aura while activating the elemental gate, but it slows deployment of the impulses if you have to move into range.
I assume you are talking about Blazing Wave there, though Blazing Wave is two actions and the one that's actually three actions and has overflow is Scorching Column. In the case you are actually talking about Blazing Wave, if you have the Fire impulse junction and Safe Elements going Pacifying Infusion > Blazing Wave can be very effective as way to essentialy throw a fireball that doesn't target allies. If you have Thermal Nimbus and are 9th level then you should reduce the damage of Blazing Wave by a decent margin against your allies too (6d8+4, average 31 points of damage, which you would reduce to 22 or 11 on a success).
I also don't get such gameplay experience Firelion.
OK that melee Martials and 3-actions Magus/Eldritch Archers doing more damage than Kineticist, OK that Sorcerer Spells and Focus Spells doing large AoE damage but my encounters usually doesn't end faster than 3 rounds (and commoly a bit more rounds in mid to high levels) to a point that's like an initiative order make a killing speedrun to a point that looks like that a kineticist, psychic or any other class that needs to move or use some prepare actions like rage, hunt pray and so on.
Also I can say that about 90% of encounters specially for APs are in-door or the battle map isn't so large to a point that turns the Kineticist range too short.
So you've never done the following:
1. Scouted up to a location. Checked it out.2. Had said scout tell you what's going on.
3. Have said scout open door.
4. Casters nuke room prior to entry.
5. Draw monsters into hall with big martials set up in front ready to engage.
6. Smash the enemy.
This is how we do things. The above classes are very good at this tactical play-style. Kin is not proving great yet, but will hopefully improve.
We fight more often in vertical formation in hallways more often than rooms and design parties for vertical damage and encounter control.
I'll figure out how to make the Kin work with our play-style. Maybe adjust some powers. Some of the higher level stuff looks more useful.
I'm using Blazing Wave, Solar Detonation, Flying Flame, Molten Wire, Shard Strike, Magnetic Pinions, and Scrap Barricade.
I could switch to Scorching Column for more range.
We've been fighting some large groups. We have two blaster casters who have leveled these groups pretty well before we engaged them in the hallway.
It seems some of the small encounters we've had against a target or two get wrecked by the martials.
If we get a larger group of five or more, they get wrecked by the blaster casters. We like to set them up at range to ensure they are using move actions to close the distance as we thin them. We're setting up 80 to 100 feet away inside a giant lair.
I'll have to work on positioning. This is my first go at a Kin. I'll have to figure out how to best use it.
Honestly, it sounds like the problem you're having is that the encounter design is literally the best possible case for blaster casters, so them outshining everyone else is almost to be expected from it? Just being forced to start closer to enemies would help a lot though - most elements can't reach out that far at those levels.
If you've got Solar Detonation though that's already a 20' burst at 60', so Scorching Column won't add more range. Fire doesn't have anything that reaches further until the 500' of its capstones.
Water and Wood get the only really long range options at mid levels (Sanguivolent Roots and Driving Rain both have 120' range at 8 and 6 respectively, and the longest ranged composites are part wood or water too)
I don't worry too much about caster comparisons because casters do a lot of stuff besides blast. No marital really compares to them.
I'm metal and fire which isn't the best utility powers. That may color my view.
Well, damn, Solar Detonation is quite a brutal power. I have to say that one is pretty damn nice.
I also don't get such gameplay experience Firelion.
OK that melee Martials and 3-actions Magus/Eldritch Archers doing more damage than Kineticist, OK that Sorcerer Spells and Focus Spells doing large AoE damage but my encounters usually doesn't end faster than 3 rounds (and commoly a bit more rounds in mid to high levels) to a point that's like an initiative order make a killing speedrun to a point that looks like that a kineticist, psychic or any other class that needs to move or use some prepare actions like rage, hunt pray and so on.
Also I can say that about 90% of encounters specially for APs are in-door or the battle map isn't so large to a point that turns the Kineticist range too short.
So you've never done the following:
1. Scouted up to a location. Checked it out.2. Had said scout tell you what's going on.
3. Have said scout open door.
4. Casters nuke room prior to entry.
5. Draw monsters into hall with big martials set up in front ready to engage.
6. Smash the enemy.
This is how we do things. The above classes are very good at this tactical play-style. Kin is not proving great yet, but will hopefully improve.
We fight more often in vertical formation in hallways more often than rooms and design parties for vertical damage and encounter control.
I'll figure out how to make the Kin work with our play-style. Maybe adjust some powers. Some of the higher level stuff looks more useful.
maybe a couple of times in all the time playing pf2?
that is an extremely specific setup to accomplish. It also has several concessions made, like the creatures inside the room not hearing the lumbering heavy armored characters that aren't using avoid notice as they move close to the room and etc.
We don't really care if they come out in the hall voluntarily if they hear the lumbering heavy armor guy. We welcome that. Our heavy armor guys are usually champions with high AC or fighter with champion archetype. We want them to take the hit. So not a problem.
Also don't get me wrong, the Kineticist is fun to play. This is my first time playing one starting at level 9. I'm learning how to put all this together.
They look amazing in the mind's eye. I made mine a blacksmith from an elven family that uses metal and fire to forge items as well as fight.
I really want to use that lvl 18 metal ability thousand needles thing. That looks so damn awesome in the mind's eye.
Quick question, impulses set off AoO? I could only see that they had the concentrate trait, not manipulate.
Impulses don't set off AoO unless it is a ranged attack roll or can do the AoO on a concentrate?
correct, almost nothing in kineticist sets off regular AoOsQuick question, impulses set off AoO? I could only see that they had the concentrate trait, not manipulate.
Impulses don't set off AoO unless it is a ranged attack roll or can do the AoO on a concentrate?
Nice.
I just used my wall to cut off rock attacks from a giant. That was cool. Forged a metal wall by drawing upon the plane of metal.
So you've never done the following:
1. Scouted up to a location. Checked it out.2. Had said scout tell you what's going on.
3. Have said scout open door.
4. Casters nuke room prior to entry.
5. Draw monsters into hall with big martials set up in front ready to engage.
6. Smash the enemy.
This depends from your scout and GM.
I (as GM) and my GMs usually try to detect the scout even with it having a high Stealth and Foil Senses. So after 2 times with the Scout being detected alone and initiate an encounter the parties stoped to sent a scout ahead alone.
So you've never done the following:
1. Scouted up to a location. Checked it out.2. Had said scout tell you what's going on.
3. Have said scout open door.
4. Casters nuke room prior to entry.
5. Draw monsters into hall with big martials set up in front ready to engage.
6. Smash the enemy.
This depends from your scout and GM.
Me (as GM) and my GMs usually try to detect the scout even with it having a high Stealth and Foil Senses. So after 2 times with the Scout being detected alone and initiate an encounter the parties stoped to sent a scout ahead alone.
The scout being detected is fairly irrelevant. Drawing them into the vertical kill zone is the most important part. It is almost impossible to prevent or for most monsters to do much about.
We only send the scout may 30 feet or two moves ahead in sight of the party. The intent is not necessarily avoidance of detection, but dictation of the set up to prevent enemy flanking and force them to engage who we want them to engage.
Occasional caster mobs can alter this, but most martial mobs are in a bad way in this situation.
The main thing to avoid is one of the most common group situations of a party wandering into rooms, rolling initiative as soon as the door is open, then rushing in all within 30 feet. Why do this when PCs often have vast ranged superiority to enemies.
Your party wants to dictate the fight location and set up, not the enemy. If you have spells that can hit from over a 100 feet, why are engaging encounters within 30 feet? Seems to play into the favor of martial mobs.
My players uses the funnel strategy pretty much when it's possible but it's for from be so devastating has pointed by Deriven Firelion. This usually just help to protect the casters and put the oponents in a position where AoE effects works safier and prevent to be flanked but for other side help my creatures to use AoE against the party too.
So you've never done the following:
1. Scouted up to a location. Checked it out.2. Had said scout tell you what's going on.
3. Have said scout open door.
4. Casters nuke room prior to entry...
How long are the hallways in your dungeons, that the casters are standing more than 60' back and your 9th level fire Kineticist can't drop Solar Detonation on the first turn?
For that matter, even if the casters are standing 70'+ back, your fighter/rogue/bar isn't. So why not position your kineticist 30' away from the door in step 2, instead of with the casters? Or if you're not using a ranged build but rather a build that relies on auras, why not position your kineticist with the (other) melee PCs right outside the door?
With all the prep work your party does, why are you starting him out of range of his attacks?
Depends on the set up. I mostly play APs, some are tight and some wide open. The more room you have, the easier it is to hit from range. Tighter quarters shift to a shorter range vertical control strategy.
It's fairly easy to control a door and funnel the attacks at the Champion or other heavy martial so only one or two creatures attack at a time while ranged attackers and casters hit them from martial wall.
Martials do lots of damage, can trip, and trip, smash, hit with ranged after trip flat-footing the target, destroy them.
This isn't a hard strategy and it trivializes a lot of fights. The way people talk about teamwork and trip on these boards, you would think you would see this more often.
PCs get very powerful as they level, especially the four I listed. Barbarian trip characters built with Improved Knockdown using the Mauler archetype with AoO are absolutely brutal at destroying enemies drawn to doors or hallways.
Some of you are getting caught up with the AoE, but mook rooms are pretty easy to slaughter with this strategy.
Even if the hallway is 20 or 30 feet, just hold up in the next room where the door is 20 or 30 feet away, have the scout move up, pop the door, move back, shout at the monsters to come. Let them come. Then hammer them.
It's a very basic, easy vertical control strategy that works in most dungeons or tight room quarters allowing you to funnel enemies into a kill zone.
We build our parties for this way too. Which is why archers are valuable and we almost always have one. A caster or two and two to three martials depending on if we have two casters. Our groups are normally five people.
The main part of the strategy you want to execute is funneling the targets into a narrow area to fight so they can't flank or surround you. You want the high AC and hit point martials in front. You want them to bring the hammer and your trip martial (we almost always have one which I is why I think its overpowered) to control the frontline. Let then come, slaughter them.
Adjust if you have casters or some other enemy that throws the strategy off. But most of the time, you can motor through dungeons with a basic a vertical control strategy and crush them fairly easy. You build your party with your group to execute this strategy covering all your bases.
Our usual control frontline martials rotate between champion, monk, fighter, and barbarian. These are your best frontline guys to execute a trip control strategy with your frontline targets.
Some kind of hybrid healer/control/blaster.
Archer.
Damage martial or caster.
Funnel attacks to the big damage hammers. Rain down damage from your ranged damage dealers with vertical protection from the martial wall. Martials do tons of damage as well as control or defend.
Rinse. Repeat. Adjust as needed.
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Adjust if you have casters or some other enemy that throws the strategy off.
Heh. That is a really big caveat to just sneak in there as a one-liner.
Honestly, it sounds like the problem you're having is that the encounter design is literally the best possible case for blaster casters, so them outshining everyone else is almost to be expected from it?
Also, I think that is important to note too. I asked earlier if this has anything to do with your houserule buffed casters overperforming. Since your example encounter heavily favors your caster classes, I would say that yes - the buffed casters is making a big difference in how you are seeing the Kineticist's performance.
Even if the hallway is 20 or 30 feet, just hold up in the next room where the door is 20 or 30 feet away, have the scout move up, pop the door, move back, shout at the monsters to come. Let them come. Then hammer them.
It's a very basic, easy vertical control strategy that works in most dungeons or tight room quarters allowing you to funnel enemies into a kill zone.
We build our parties for this way too. Which is why archers are valuable and we almost always have one. A caster or two and two to three martials depending on if we have two casters. Our groups are normally five people.
The main part of the strategy you want to execute is funneling the targets into a narrow area to fight so they can't flank or surround you.
I understand the strategy. What I don't understand is your complaint that the Kineticist is slow to get into position if you are using this strategy. While your melee martials are getting in position near the door, and your casters and archers are getting into position at range, why aren't you getting your kineticist to the spot where he needs to be, to drop his preferred first round attack?
Is it just that because this is the first time playing this PC, you haven't yet figured out where to position him to be most effective? I would completely understand that...but I wouldn't call the class 'disappointing' because me-the-player hadn't figured out the optimal tactics to use with the character yet.
I wouldn't put too much stock in my initial impressions. This is literally my first kineticist starting at level 9 and I'm kind of getting used to how to use him. I just made level 10. His aura grew bigger, which should help. I'll give my full impressions once he hits higher level. So far, so good. Started a little slow and clunky, but I think I'm getting the hang of the class.
Now I've used Solar Detonation, I've seen some of their power as that is an absolutely brutal damage dealing spell, especially against mooks. What it does it crazy.
I don't have enough experience with the kineticist to be sure about it.
I was playing him more last night and he was doing better. Pretty fun class. Scrap Barricade is pretty cool. Solar Detoniation was an eye opener in a mook battle.
I still want to use molten wire. That looks fun.
Some cool stuff with the kineticist:
1. Doing fire or cold damage with the Thermal Nimbus stance makes it very useful.
2. Fire Weakness is really nice for flame runes and persistent fire damage. You enhance the entire group using fire runes.
3. Have to get used to managing overflow and aura activation.
2. Fire Weakness is really nice for flame runes and persistent fire damage. You enhance the entire group using fire runes.
There's a common mistake here.
Aura Junction: Enemies in your kinetic aura gain weakness to fire from your fire impulses. The weakness is equal to half your level (minimum weakness 1).
So they can benefit from Kindle Inner Flames or Ignite the Sun but not from normal fire runes.
But about Nimbus I agree. Thermal Nimbus is pretty good because it does no check damage to all enemies in your Aura.
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2. Fire Weakness is really nice for flame runes and persistent fire damage. You enhance the entire group using fire runes.There's a common mistake here.
Aura Junction: Enemies in your kinetic aura gain weakness to fire from your fire impulses. The weakness is equal to half your level (minimum weakness 1).So they can benefit from Kindle Inner Flames or Ignite the Sun but not from normal fire runes.
But about Nimbus I agree. Thermal Nimbus is pretty good because it does no check damage to all enemies in your Aura.
Good. You pointed out a mistake. I did not read that close enough. Gotta make sure to do that.
It still takes the extra damage from the Thermal Nimbus, which adds up to a surprising amount of damage and gets better as your aura gets bigger.
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From my point of view, the power of the fire kineticist doesn't come from one big source of damage but from several medium ones.
With the aura junction, you add a damage evey time you hit. So you need to use the less actions possible on every thing you do.
I find flying flames (2 actions) + elemental blast (1 action) + thermal nimbus (stance) very efficient on the first levels.
It's not as impressive as a big strike from the barbarian. It's not here to oneshot but mooks are melting when you are here. And you do not have to worry about MAP.
From my point of view, the power of the fire kineticist doesn't come from one big source of damage but from several medium ones.
With the aura junction, you add a damage evey time you hit. So you need to use the less actions possible on every thing you do.
I find flying flames (2 actions) + elemental blast (1 action) + thermal nimbus (stance) very efficient on the first levels.It's not as impressive as a big strike from the barbarian. It's not here to oneshot but mooks are melting when you are here. And you do not have to worry about MAP.
That is what it is starting to look like to me too. Lots of little sources of damage.
The power of 3 ignite the sun, with the aura junction, thermal nimbus and the free sustain to elemental blast a bit seems very powerful at high level.
But that's just theory crafting
Solar Detonation was a brutal power. I can see a higher level one being even more brutal. When I used solar detonation, damage and blinding effect was harsh.
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Don't forget solar detonation does have the incapacitation trait (for the game I'm in now where I'm playing a purely fire kineticist the dm is running it as the incap trait just applies to the blind/dazzle effect and not the damage)
It's a good homebrew the incapacitation trait for dmg weaken the impulse a lot.
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Even with Incap, it is great for nuking mooks.
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Lava Leap + Channel to reactivate Thermal Nimbus is a genuinely delightful loop for the Kineticist.
Lava Leap + Channel to reactivate Thermal Nimbus is a genuinely delightful loop for the Kineticist.
The more I look at Aerial Boomerang the more I think it is kinda busted.
2d4 damage at 1st level makes it one of the impulses with the highest damage at that level (the only other ones being hail of splinters, magnetic pinions, and winter's clutch), though unlike most of them, aerial boomerang can actually hit two or three times if you position yourself correctly. Yes, enemies can move to avoid getting hit, but if you are forcing enemies to move avoid getting hit you are effectively consuming their actions too, and since this is an air impulse and you'll likely have the air impulse junction it means that position yourself freely to hit them again anyways. Compared against other higher level impuses like retch rust (4d10, average 22), a single hit of aerial boomerang at that level is going to deal 5d4 (average 12,5) so if actually hit at least twice with it you are dealing more average damage than an impulse that has overflow.
Yes, most of these impulses have better AoE, and you certainly aren't dealing more damage than an optimized fire kineticist, but even as a solo air kineticist with Desert Wind through Elemental Overlap a simple routine of Aerial Boomerang + one-action elemental blast, then two-action elemental blast + return Aerial Boomerang on the following turn can probably give you the best single target damage out of any kineticist.
I guess two one-action elemental blast are better with Desert Wind, but I brought up two-action elemental blast in the case you have to move to reposition again in case the target moved away or something.
Since we are at it, what is the consensus on Four Winds and Air Cushion? Both of them target "willing creatures" but I don't know if you can include yourself in those "willing creatures" (the rules aren't very clear about it, unless I'm missing something. I know you aren't your own ally for the purpose of effects, but here it says "creatures"). I get the feeling that the idea is that Four Winds probably shouldn't allow you to target yourself (since the air impulse already would do that for you anyways) but it IMO feels like an oversight that you can't target yourself with Air Cushion since I feel someone that would want to take that impulse is going to find opportunities to throw themselves on pits to explore and what not. And besides, if the party has to throw themselves on a pit for whatever reason, the first one that would likely need to do that to cushion the fall of their allies would be the kineticist, but if they can't target themselves and they don't have Cyclonic Ascent yet they are literally breaking their legs in favor of the party (which I guess would be worth it? but it sounds a little weird that it works like that).