Broom of Flying

[Atalius]

If you are riding this item all the time, are you permanently flying? I'm combat do you not need to sustain it like the fly spell?

[Baarogue]

1. The Fly spell does not need to be sustained. It has a duration of 5 minutes, or 1 hour if heightened to 7th rank. What you might be mistaking for sustaining the spell is the Fly action you need to spend every turn if you are airborne, even if only to hover in place, or else fall

2. You do still need to spend that Fly action every turn or else fall even with a Flying Broomstick

[Atalius]

Ohh that sucks, having to spend fly action every round to stay airborne is not ideal.

[The Contrarian]

Baarogue wrote:

You do still need to spend that Fly action every turn or else fall even with a Flying Broomstick

The broom does all the flying, you don't. I'd argue you do not need to spend actions, other than to direct it.

Everything in the description reads like it flies on its own, even drifting while stowed.

[Baarogue]

The Contrarian wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

You do still need to spend that Fly action every turn or else fall even with a Flying Broomstick

The broom does all the flying, you don't. I'd argue you do not need to spend actions, other than to direct it.

Everything in the description reads like it flies on its own, even drifting while stowed.

No, The description says nothing about circumventing the rules for Flying. Flavor text about "drifting while stowed" has no bearing on its function while supporting a rider

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Atalius wrote:

Ohh that sucks, having to spend fly action every round to stay airborne is not ideal.

Yeah, flight has taken a back seat in this edition, which I guess makes sense. Not even Haste can save it.

[HammerJack]

Flying makes you so much safer in so many cases that it makes sense for it to have some cost. You wouldn't want to end up with "flight is the supreme strategy, and everyone should always be flying" after all. That isn't very interesting.

[gesalt]

At least we still have air walk for untaxed aerial movement without a trip weakness. Though everyone should have something like a flight tattoo or bat cloak anyway for self-supplied flight.

[Ravingdork]

Are we certain the flying broomstick even allows for precision flight during tactical encounters?

Abilities, items, and spells don't do anything more than is stated in this edition, correct?

'Cause it looks to me like it doesn't grant you a fly speed and reads as though you simply tell the broom to take you somewhere, and it does so. In other words, it behaves more like a self-driving carriage.

[The Contrarian]

Baarogue wrote:

Flavor text...has no bearing on its function...

One man's flavor text is another man's rules. Who are you to decide for everyone which is which?

I'm fairly certain many of the game's developers have espoused a dim view of your particular stance on the matter on these forums in the past.

[thenobledrake]

Where I would normally be a "don't interpret things in a way that screws the player if you don't have to" sort of GM, I think Ravingdork has a point here.

The way this particular item is worded is that you tell it where you want to go when you activate it and it flies you toward there to the best of its stated-as-limited ability for up to 4 hours.

So if you're trying to use it for in-combat flight you're going to have to reactivate it repeatedly, 2 actions each time, to give it a new "right over there by that" destination. And you'd have to have dismissed the prior activation to not just keep going along its path (which maybe you want to do as your attacks may have trouble keeping up and attacking you).

Incidentally, this does mean that if you're just letting the broom keep on going toward the pre-selected destination during a combat you don't actually need to spend any actions keeping it flying... you just also have to have both hands on the broom to be riding it, so your combat options could be limited.

Lots of edits from a re-read in the GM core instead of on Archives: The wording is actually inconsistent as to whether you can have just one hand on the broom or need both.

And i was wrong about re-activating the broom for combat flight because of the clause that the broom can't be used for an hour after the activation ends.

It's also unclear whether the broom's speed is 20 or 40.

Altogether a roughly-written item, but one that is definitely not a fly speed you can use in combat. It's a kind of magical 2-rider train that doesn't need a track, it just needs you to tell it where you are going and hang on while it heads there.

[Baarogue]

The Contrarian wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

Flavor text...has no bearing on its function...

One man's flavor text is another man's rules. Who are you to decide for everyone which is which?

I'm fairly certain many of the game's developers have espoused a dim view of your particular stance on the matter on these forums in the past.

"Alias of Ravingdork"

k.

[shroudb]

thenobledrake wrote:

Where I would normally be a "don't interpret things in a way that screws the player if you don't have to" sort of GM, I think Ravingdork has a point here.

The way this particular item is worded is that you tell it where you want to go when you activate it and it flies you toward there to the best of its stated-as-limited ability for up to 4 hours.

So if you're trying to use it for in-combat flight you're going to have to reactivate it repeatedly, 2 actions each time, to give it a new "right over there by that" destination. And you'd have to have dismissed the prior activation to not just keep going along its path (which maybe you want to do as your attacks may have trouble keeping up and attacking you).

Incidentally, this does mean that if you're just letting the broom keep on going toward the pre-selected destination during a combat you don't actually need to spend any actions keeping it flying... you just also have to have both hands on the broom to be riding it, so your combat options could be limited.

Lots of edits from a re-read in the GM core instead of on Archives: The wording is actually inconsistent as to whether you can have just one hand on the broom or need both.

And i was wrong about re-activating the broom for combat flight because of the clause that the broom can't be used for an hour after the activation ends.

It's also unclear whether the broom's speed is 20 or 40.

Altogether a roughly-written item, but one that is definitely not a fly speed you can use in combat. It's a kind of magical 2-rider train that doesn't need a track, it just needs you to tell it where you are going and hang on while it heads there.

It's both.

It has a passive, always-on effect, and an activatable ability. Hence the different numbers between the two.

the activatable ability is different than the passive flying ability of the broomstick.

The broomstick has naturally a 20ft Fly speed and it goes where you point it to go. It permanetly floats unless it's over the bulk limit. You can ride it and point where you want it to go at the speed ot 20ft.

AND it has a 2 action activatable ability that you say a location and it zooms there at a flight speed of 40ft. But if you use that, it can't be activated at all of 1h.

Full text: (emphasis mine)

Quote:

This broom has a tenuous connection to gravity, and it tends to

drift even while stowed. You can ride on the broom using one
hand to guide it, and the broom can carry up to one passenger
in addition to you. The broom moves at a fly Speed of 20 feet.
The broom can carry only so much, taking a –10-foot penalty
to its Speed if laden with more than 20 Bulk, and crashing to
the ground if it carries more than 30 Bulk.

Activate—Lift Off [two-actions] (concentrate, manipulate) Effect You
name a destination on the same plane, and the broom
speeds toward it at a fly Speed of 40 feet. You must either
clutch the broom with two hands in order to ride it, or you
need to release the broom to send it off with no rider. If you
don’t have a good idea of the location, layout, and general
direction of the destination, or if your named destination
is on another plane, the broom wanders aimlessly, circling
back to its starting location after 30 minutes.
If the broom carries a rider, this activation lasts until 4
hours pass (typically 16 miles of travel), the broom reaches
its destination, or you Dismiss the activation. If the broom
doesn’t have a rider, the activation lasts until the broom
reaches its destination. When the activation ends, the
broom floats to the ground and can’t be activated again for
1 hour.

Speeds, hands needed, passengers, how you point the destination (verbal vs using a hand), and etc, are all different between the Activatable ability and the normal passive one.

Also, for the passive one, it doesn't "fall" unless it has over 30bulk.

It functions differently than other flying items, but it's also significantly slower (especially since you can't increase its speed with spell effect like tailwind, or feats like fleet, that all affect you)

(In all fairness, there should have been a mention somewhere in there what action it is to "guide it", but I would assume it's a single command action like mentioned in the relevant Witch Feat)

---

It becomes more clear how it works if we read the corresponding Witch feat from Player Core 1 (which is basically the passive version of the broomstick unless you spend gold to craft the actual broomstick):

Quote:

WITCH’S BROOM FEAT 12

A broom is the only steed you need to fly through the night
sky. During your daily preparations, you can anoint a single
broom, staff, polearm, or similarly shaped object with a flying
ointment made of special herbs and oils. Until the next time
you make your daily preparations, it gains the magical trait,
and you can ride on it while you’re holding it with at least 1
hand. It moves at a fly Speed of 20 feet. The broom takes a
–10-foot penalty to its Speed if laden with more than 20 Bulk,
and crashes to the ground if it carries more than 30 Bulk. The
broom can’t be controlled by anyone but you. If you anoint a
weapon or other held item, you can’t ride the broom and wield
it at the same time.
You can Craft your broomstick into a flying broomstick
(GM Core 274) as though you had the formula for that item.
If you anoint an item that’s already a flying broomstick, the
broom gains a +10-foot status bonus to its Speed and you can
choose whether it works for anyone or only you.

[thenobledrake]

That's a good point about the wording being even more convoluted than I was reading it as.

I thought the errors were just inconsistency between some details, but you're right that it can simply be held in one hand and fly... but that's even worse than the way I was reading it as just not applying to combat at all because now you're in combat moving at least 20 feet every round since you are only given ability to "guide" the broom not actually control the speed, and since no number of actions the broom uses is specified it's unclear whether "speed of 20 feet" means just the 20 feet or means up to 60 feat like it would be if actually giving the user of the item of fly speed of 20 feet.

So it's an item with one clear usage (the activation part) and a whole paragraph of almost saying you can do something else but not landing on anything generally useful.

[shroudb]

thenobledrake wrote:

That's a good point about the wording being even more convoluted than I was reading it as.

I thought the errors were just inconsistency between some details, but you're right that it can simply be held in one hand and fly... but that's even worse than the way I was reading it as just not applying to combat at all because now you're in combat moving at least 20 feet every round since you are only given ability to "guide" the broom not actually control the speed, and since no number of actions the broom uses is specified it's unclear whether "speed of 20 feet" means just the 20 feet or means up to 60 feat like it would be if actually giving the user of the item of fly speed of 20 feet.

So it's an item with one clear usage (the activation part) and a whole paragraph of almost saying you can do something else but not landing on anything generally useful.

i edited using the relevant Witch feat that came alongside the item.

i think the obvious "ommitment" is they didn't mention that its a command to move, but I think saying that it's "controlled by you" kinda points to that.

---

overall, i'd say that it's fairly balanced item:
while it doesn't need to keep spending flying action, and it's permanently flight at 12, it's also about half as quick (or even less) as other forms of flying at that level and you can never make it quicker, and it needs a hand to be holding it as well.

---

edit: thinking it over, it's basically using Vehicle rules but doesn't need a specific action to control it. Maybe that's why they didn't elaborate further. (there was already the cauldron of flying as a 6th level rare vehicle).

So, it is 1 action to Drive it for its speed by the one controlling it.

[thenobledrake]

I'm not sure I think it is balanced. I'm also not sure I think it isn't.

I just know that the first thing I looked up to compare it to (a winged rune for armor) is leaving me thinking there's definitely something not working as intended.

Level 12 vs. Level 13, you'd expect the higher level to come out ahead.
No investment vs. investment, you'd expect the investment to come out ahead.
Yet the broom gives flight Speed 20 as long as it is held in one hand for you and a second passenger plus having an entire separate self-driving vehicle function... and the rune provides 5 minutes of flight Speed 25 (or your land speed if slower) per hour, with any passenger-style situation being more hand-occupying.

So whether because the broom is arguably too good or the winged rune is arguable too bad, there's seemingly something off about the balance of these items.

[Ravingdork]

shroudb wrote:

The broomstick has naturally a 20 foot Fly speed and it goes where you point it to go. It permanently floats unless it's over the bulk limit. You can ride it and point where you want it to go at the speed of 20 feet.

So we agree that the broom is doing the flying not the rider? At best, the rider is merely directing it?

[Themetricsystem]

The Broomstick is doing 100% of the flying, full stop, the only thing the rider needs to do is keep one hand on the broom at all times and use two hands whenever you wish to change the destination of the broom (which, by the way, cannot be something like "follow this person/creature" as that is not a place/destination, instead you must specify a place) during your own turn. Your character does NOT control the path of the broom either, that would 100% be handled by the GM and, generally speaking, in combat using it for anything other than fleeing the encounter (which you'd effectively do in most situations scott-free within 2-3 rounds against anything that itself cannot fly) wouldn't work so well as most non-thrown Ranged weapons are a no-go if you cannot ever use a second hand.

[shroudb]

Themetricsystem wrote:

The Broomstick is doing 100% of the flying, full stop, the only thing the rider needs to do is keep one hand on the broom at all times and use two hands whenever you wish to change the destination of the broom (which, by the way, cannot be something like "follow this person/creature" as that is not a place/destination, instead you must specify a place) during your own turn. Your character does NOT control the path of the broom either, that would 100% be handled by the GM and, generally speaking, in combat using it for anything other than fleeing the encounter (which you'd effectively do in most situations scott-free within 2-3 rounds against anything that itself cannot fly) wouldn't work so well as most non-thrown Ranged weapons are a no-go if you cannot ever use a second hand.

the onehand/two hand thing is for two different things.

one hand for when you are simply using it to fly around, two hands when you do the specific take off usage of the item, which is completely separate than the usual flight usage of it.

as I said above, the whole first paragraph of the item (the passive effect) is what witches get with their level 12 feat (almost word for word).

So they should work the exact same way.

Ravingdork wrote:

shroudb wrote:

The broomstick has naturally a 20 foot Fly speed and it goes where you point it to go. It permanently floats unless it's over the bulk limit. You can ride it and point where you want it to go at the speed of 20 feet.

So we agree that the broom is doing the flying not the rider? At best, the rider is merely directing it?

Yes.

The way I see it it behaves like a Vehicle: the Broom is doing the flying, the rider is spending the actions to Drive/Command it.

Unlike other items that grant flying, it specifically states that
a)"It" has a speed of X and not that "you" gain a speed of X while using it, and
b) that you ride it.

[Ectar]

Seems to me like "permanent flight where you don't even have to spend an action to hover, at the cost of one free hand" falls squarely in the realm of "too good to be true".

Definitely going to be adjudicating the passive effect of the item to require a player to spend an action guiding the broom each round to prevent falling.

[Atalius]

Ectar wrote:

Seems to me like "permanent flight where you don't even have to spend an action to hover, at the cost of one free hand" falls squarely in the realm of "too good to be true".

Definitely going to be adjudicating the passive effect of the item to require a player to spend an action guiding the broom each round to prevent falling.

I'm not so sure "too good to be true" though. I mean this is a fairly high level class feat here.

[thenobledrake]

It certainly seems better, to me, than a 1 level higher item giving a similar flight speed but only for up to 5 minutes each hour... which since the higher level item does literally only that and this lower-level item actually also goes even faster in exploration scenarios.

I am open to being convinced that the issue there is the winged rune being too weak for its level... but considering a fly spell is also similarly limited at such levels, it seems the broom might be what's out of sorts.

[Ectar]

Atalius wrote:

Ectar wrote:

Seems to me like "permanent flight where you don't even have to spend an action to hover, at the cost of one free hand" falls squarely in the realm of "too good to be true".

Definitely going to be adjudicating the passive effect of the item to require a player to spend an action guiding the broom each round to prevent falling.

I'm not so sure "too good to be true" though. I mean this is a fairly high level class feat here.

It is one of the lowest level class feats granting something akin to permanent flight, with one very notable exception.

Levels:

8- Air Kineticist's Cyclonic Ascent. 2 actions grants 10 minutes of flight, with functionally infinite uses per day. Effectively permanent flight.

12- Witch's Broom and Dragon Barbarian's Dragon Wings (only usable while raging)

14- Armor Inventor's Soaring Armor and Summoner's Airborne Form.

16- Psychic's Constant Levitation and Thaumaturge's Implement's Flight.

18- Champion's Celestial and Fiendish Form and Air Kineticist's Crowned in Tempest's Fury.

20- Champion's Celestial and Fiendish Mount and Summoner's Bloodline Mutation.

Most notably, Cyclonic Ascent explicitly lets you stay in the air without using an action to Fly that turn, if you used an Air Impulse.

Not a single one of these other feats grants the ability to remain in the air without spending an action, despite many of them having much steeper feat acquisition requirements, except for Witch's Broom (as is being currently argued).
I just don't buy it.

[Gortle]

Well Air Walk is still in the game for now. As is Levitate.

Also as a GM I'm not going to have a flying animal companion fall out of the sky simply because it wasn't commanded that turn. Yep it is purely a judgement call. But it has the side effect of allowing zero action flying mounts.

[Perpdepog]

Assuming the broom is intended to be treated as a kind of vehicle presents us with one large weakness over the flying rune; it can be targeted and destroyed rather easily. That's a very risky proposition while in combat. I'm not sure I'd want to trust my safety to something with the hardness and hit points of thin wood.

[Vali Nepjarson]

The broom being targeted is iffy as usually you cannot target an item that is being attended, but you can be knocked off the broom, the broom has a pretty low fly speed, it can be stolen from you, you are required to keep one hand on the broom at all times, which is actually a pretty potent weakness.

It does have some other advantages which have not been brought up yet either. You can give it to your allies, for example. If you see a trap up on a higher elevation, you can pass it to the Rogue to allow them to go and disarm it. With most Ancestral or Class flight, this isn't available.

Plus it's just really cool.

That said, even though the broom "feels" like it should remain hovering even if you don't spend an action doing so, I don't see anything in the description of the item that suggests it has different rules than anything else with a fly speed. It may tend to float around when not in use, but it also clearly is affected by the weight of it's riders, so it's totally reasonable to assume it requires active use or else it fails to hold up the weight of a person.

I might allow it as a GM because I like it, but if I was feeling particularly spicy I might also do something like make it drift every round that it isn't controlled. Roll a D8 to see what direction it floats, and a D4 or D6 to see how far it goes.

[shroudb]

Yeah, I think if it stays put on air or if it floats down if you don't spend an action is a GM call as well.

I don't think in either way it should "fall" though, not unless you go over the Bulk limit.

It depends on how you rule on other flying items if you leave them unattended I guess (like flying ships and flying cauldrons, which also don't mention anything about what happens when you don't spend an action Driving them- unless I missed such a mention)

It has some drawbacks, but it also has some strengths.

As far as class features go, with kineticists having perma fly at 8, a class having slower permafly, with hand restrictions, at 12 doesn't look too out of place for a "good feat", not when other classes get faster perma fly without restrictions at 14 as well

[Ectar]

shroudb wrote:

It depends on how you rule on other flying items if you leave them unattended I guess (like flying ships and flying cauldrons, which also don't mention anything about what happens when you don't spend an action Driving them- unless I missed such a mention)

Uncontrolled Vehicles

Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 175
Some situations can cause a pilot to lose control of their vehicle. Most commonly, this is due to a failed piloting check for a reckless action, but it can also occur if a round passes without a pilot using a move action to control the vehicle or Stopping the vehicle. A vehicle can also become uncontrolled if the pilot becomes unable to act during a move action to control the vehicle. For example, if a vehicle’s movement triggers an Attack of Opportunity that knocks the pilot unconscious or paralyzes them, the vehicle becomes uncontrolled.

An uncontrolled vehicle continues to move each round at its most recent pilot’s initiative position. The distance it moves each round is 10 feet less than on the previous round, always in a straight line at its current heading until it crashes or it comes to a stop. At your discretion, it could slow down more if it’s on uneven terrain, difficult terrain, on an upward slope, or facing adverse wind conditions; by the same token, it could stay at the same speed or even accelerate if it’s on a downward slope or being pushed by strong winds.

An uncontrolled vehicle in motion interacts with obstacles, other vehicles, and creatures using the effects of the Run Over action, except that the distance it moves is dictated by the factors above instead of the Speed specified in that action.

At a glance, the wording in the GM Core is identical, save for changing Attack of Opportunity to Reactive Strike.

Might be a funny alternative, but none of the the above applies RAW, since the flying broomstick isn't a vehicle.

[shroudb]

Ectar wrote:

shroudb wrote:

It depends on how you rule on other flying items if you leave them unattended I guess (like flying ships and flying cauldrons, which also don't mention anything about what happens when you don't spend an action Driving them- unless I missed such a mention)

Uncontrolled Vehicles

Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 175
Some situations can cause a pilot to lose control of their vehicle. Most commonly, this is due to a failed piloting check for a reckless action, but it can also occur if a round passes without a pilot using a move action to control the vehicle or Stopping the vehicle. A vehicle can also become uncontrolled if the pilot becomes unable to act during a move action to control the vehicle. For example, if a vehicle’s movement triggers an Attack of Opportunity that knocks the pilot unconscious or paralyzes them, the vehicle becomes uncontrolled.

An uncontrolled vehicle continues to move each round at its most recent pilot’s initiative position. The distance it moves each round is 10 feet less than on the previous round, always in a straight line at its current heading until it crashes or it comes to a stop. At your discretion, it could slow down more if it’s on uneven terrain, difficult terrain, on an upward slope, or facing adverse wind conditions; by the same token, it could stay at the same speed or even accelerate if it’s on a downward slope or being pushed by strong winds.

An uncontrolled vehicle in motion interacts with obstacles, other vehicles, and creatures using the effects of the Run Over action, except that the distance it moves is dictated by the factors above instead of the Speed specified in that action.

At a glance, the wording in the GM Core is identical, save for changing Attack of Opportunity to Reactive Strike.

Might be a funny alternative, but none of the the above applies RAW, since the flying broomstick isn't a vehicle.

No, it isn't.

It's just the closest I can think of it since it's a flying item you ride upon and control its movement.

So if there was a simple rule of what happens when you don't drive a vehicle, it could be easily attached to the Broom as well.

[Ravingdork]

It really should have been a vehicle from the start.

[Perpdepog]

That would have made it easier to ajudicate.

[Ectar]

Unfortunately, the Flying Broom was printed in the Player Core, whereas vehicle rules were printed in the GM core.

[thenobledrake]

Ectar wrote:

Unfortunately, the Flying Broom was printed in the Player Core, whereas vehicle rules were printed in the GM core.

Player Core does not include any magic items, they are all in GM Core.

[Ravingdork]

Ectar wrote:

Unfortunately, the Flying Broom was printed in the Player Core, whereas vehicle rules were printed in the GM core.

And? The flying broomstick was printed in GM Core and both books were printed at the same time so I'm not seeing whatever issue you might be alluding to.

[Ectar]

thenobledrake wrote:

Ectar wrote:

Unfortunately, the Flying Broom was printed in the Player Core, whereas vehicle rules were printed in the GM core.

Player Core does not include any magic items, they are all in GM Core.

You right; totally brain farted which book I was referencing.

I think I agree with RavingDork, then.

[The Total Package]

Do we have a definitive answer on this now? Are we able to fly with the broom without spending an action to sustain?

[YuriP]

Well Sustain is not the word because it's an action but I understood you question.

But with exception air kineticists that can use any air impulse to keep flying and Air Walk that was "removed" from remaster, every flying ability requires that you use at last one Fly action to keep flying. This is basically a balance system to prevent that flying creatures having a great advante over ground targets (specially those who have ranged attacks).

That said Flying Broomsticks doesn't give the chars a fly speed. Instead the are basically an "autonomous veicles" that flyes up to target direction without stop until they reach it or end they duraction or are Dismissed. You don't control they in real time they just flies straight ahead to their target location at their full speed every round. So in this case you cannot uses actions if you are in a encounter but you also can't control your Flying Broomstick more than Dismiss you are just carried to your target location automatically every round.

[Finoan]

The Total Package wrote:

Do we have a definitive answer on this now?

The rules text hasn't changed, so I don't expect the debate to be resolved yet.

I am seeing a few options for how to run it. RAW, the item doesn't give the wielding creature a fly speed. It has a 2-action activation that lets you choose a destination to fly to. With no limitations on how often the activation can be used or how distant or how specific the destination location should be.

One option is to not allow precise control. That is a very RAW interpretation. You can pick a distant location and it will fly you there at an overland movement speed equivalent to 40 feet per round. This would make the item unusable for combat though.

Another very RAW option is to allow the riding character to use the 2-action Lift Off action each round and they can point to a destination square to fly to. That makes the item be quite a bit worse than actually having a fly speed since it only takes one action each round to stay in the air with a fly speed. Though it could be argued that the broom doesn't require any action to stay in place in the air - but that is justifiably considered a balance concern.

A third option is less RAW, but more balanced while also allowing the item to be used in combat. Require the 2-action activation to start flying, but then treat it as a fly speed for the wielding creature. They can spend one action each round keeping themselves on the broom in the air and possibly flying to a different location.

Any of those seem pretty reasonable to me.

Edit:

And as for 'guiding' the broom with one hand for the non-activated fly speed of 20 feet per round, that should probably best be handled like a mount. A flying creature used as a mount is still subject to the standard fly rules that say that you have to spend an action on Fly during the round or else fall. I would rule the same for guiding the broom without using the activation ability to fly itself somewhere specific. It would still cost at least one action each round to guide the broom to stay flying.