I don't think Imaginary Weapon is the problem. Since if Imaginary Weapon just stopped existing, then people would just use Fire Ray or something. I can't imagine that 2-20 damage makes the difference for something you can only use 1-3 times in a given combat, particularly since Fire Ray would catch up if you come against fire weakness or you get persistent damage from a crit (which you're getting a good chance of if you're using True Strike or whatever we're calling it now.)
The annoying thing about Imaginary Weapon is mostly that it's much better on the Magus than the Psychic.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote: Still Imaginary Weapon is still adding your spellcasting ability modifier, so it will no doubt be eventually revised. The compatability update already addresses this: Instead of 1d8 + SpellMod it's 2d8 baseline.
Squiggit wrote: Gortle wrote: Still Imaginary Weapon is still adding your spellcasting ability modifier, so it will no doubt be eventually revised. The compatability update already addresses this: Instead of 1d8 + SpellMod it's 2d8 baseline. Thanks.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote: I can't imagine that 2-20 damage makes the difference for something you can only use 1-3 times in a given combat Like I said earlier, it's something like 15% less damage across the total strike, which is something like dropping two die sizes on a weapon at higher level (something people treat like a really big deal here).
Also how long are your combats that something you can conceivably do three rounds in a row is 'only'? Are they routinely like 6-10 rounds long or something?
If your Magus is really leaning on Amped Imaginary Weapon, have them fight more than three things in a given combat and don't always give them 30 minutes free between fights.
Like the basic problem with the Magus in general and the Starlit Span Magus generally is that this is a class that very easily works itself into a rut of "do the same thing all the time."
Starlit Span Imaginary Weapon Magus will do the following Routine :
Round 1
Cast True Strike from scroll
Spend a focus point, Spellstrike with amped IW
Round 2
Recharge Spellstrike
Strike twice or cast a spell or whatever 2 actions you want. You can even Strike and draw another scroll of True Strike (likely the optimal choice here).
Round 3
Repeat Round 1
Round 4
Repeat Round 2
Round 5
Repeat Round 1
Round 6
Repeat Round 2
Round 7
Repeat Round 1, just with something else than amped IW.
And so on.
Every combat.
Unamped imaginary weapon is one of the best damage cantrips in the game. Like imaginary weapon is good for magi because it gives them a source of burst damage every fight and also is a general spellstrike damage increase.
PossibleCabbage wrote: If your Magus is really leaning on Amped Imaginary Weapon, have them fight more than three things in a given combat and don't always give them 30 minutes free between fights. Hordes of lower level monsters are a good response to most single target strikers. I just find you need more of these than the encounter guidlines suggest.
PossibleCabbage wrote: Like the basic problem with the Magus in general and the Starlit Span Magus generally is that this is a class that very easily works itself into a rut of "do the same thing all the time." To me this is a big problem. At least the ordinary melee Magus is having to really work hard to get his optimal damage rounds. The trade offs are more interesting.
Squiggit wrote: Unicore wrote:
I also don't know that that damage heights of the IW Starlit span magus is that big of a problem really. The more I play PF2, the more single target damage spikes feel like an overrated metric to focus on for character builds. I know "dead is the best condition" but doing too much damage can be a pretty big waste of resources in PF2, especially when there are multiple enemies around, and I have seen multiple characters in the same party capable of damaging multiple enemies, result in much more effective combat management. Overkilling one enemy and leaving another alive generally works out worse for a party than killing 2 enemies.
You say that like our Magus friend here doesn't also have the ability to prepare Fireball or Chain Lightning.
Calliope5431 wrote: Flurry rangers are very, very good at dealing with hordes ... The class that has to spend an action per monster to turn on their damage mechanic? Good against hordes? They really aren't. This is true.
I have a feat called Standby Spell that I use with Arrow Salvo. It's pretty much a spontaneous slot for the magus. I chose AoE because Imaginary Weapon is sufficient for single target damage. So a good AOE Standby Spell is helpful when I need it.
Striker's Scroll does allow you to attach spellstrike AoE spells to your bow near as I can tell as long as you have Expansive Spellstrike to use it with.
This is what I'm working on now. I want to see what spell level is most cost efficient to maintain a crafted scroll or an AOE or another type of spell on my arrow.
Can you fear arrows with Expansive Spellstrike? You don't have to use a damaging attack with a spellstrike? You can do a debuff? As long as it meets the other critera of Expansive Spellstrike?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Unicore wrote: I mean, how many Magi are getting 2 or 3 IW off in one combat?
Sure you can true strike your first one, and maybe you have a hero point for the second? It still feels like it will be like maybe a one and a half per encounter combat trick? By the second or third round. It feels like there is a good chance that spending 3 actions on one attack will not be necessary.
People like it and are having fun with it. That is nice. It does its thing well. It just is so action intensive it doesn’t feel like it needs to be dealt with as a problem. It’s action routine also can get pretty boring and repetitive if you don’t mix it up with other spells and stuff.
I get an IM off every round. Starlit Span with a Longbow doesn't have to move much.
I picked up Archer Archetype and Point Blank Shot. Round 1 is point blank shot stance and IW attack. After that it's a mix of recharge/conflux spell actions every round with an occasional amped imaginary weapon. I get one off every single round I don't use something else by choice. I can use it every round if I feel like it the vast majority of the time.
Melee magus is hard to use IW every round. Starlit Span it is easy.
SuperBidi wrote: Calliope5431 wrote: On the other hand, it doesn't actually break anything because the damage is still lower than a well-built rogue or barbarian, so it's probably not a real issue. Not really. A well-built Starlit Span Magus has no issue dealing melee Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian level of damage, it actually outdamages them if well played. The Magus can also deal with hordes, something that no other martial can handle but the Inventor. And of course, the Magus has the asset of range. And if your GM is nice with Aid, the Starlit Span Magus is the one getting the most out of it.
On the other hand, it doesn't have reactions. But it hardly compensates all the Magus' assets.
That's why some people consider it overpowered. It is certainly the highest martial damage dealer in the game in the proper hands. I doubt it, no offense.
It has no off action damage, unlike every other martial (Opportune Backstabber, reactive strike, paladin reaction stab, nimble strike, opportune Riposte). At higher level you can often get multiple (swashbuckler, rogue, champion and fighter all have feats to get more than one reaction attack). It has only one attack on turn, too.
A well built paladin or fighter is getting off three or four attacks per round at entirely silly damage bonuses (greatsword and maul are waaay higher damage than longbow, and longbow has volley and thus is bad anyway at close range) and essentially no multiple attack penalty. Imaginary weapon is good, but not that good. And starlit span also barely benefits from haste and enlarge, cornerstones of martial buffing.
Plus you cannot flank. And have to deal with cover. So your effective to hit is a lot lower. Even before you compare to fighter weapon Mastery or similar.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Squiggit wrote: Unicore wrote:
I also don't know that that damage heights of the IW Starlit span magus is that big of a problem really. The more I play PF2, the more single target damage spikes feel like an overrated metric to focus on for character builds. I know "dead is the best condition" but doing too much damage can be a pretty big waste of resources in PF2, especially when there are multiple enemies around, and I have seen multiple characters in the same party capable of damaging multiple enemies, result in much more effective combat management. Overkilling one enemy and leaving another alive generally works out worse for a party than killing 2 enemies.
You say that like our Magus friend here doesn't also have the ability to prepare Fireball or Chain Lightning.
Calliope5431 wrote: Flurry rangers are very, very good at dealing with hordes ... The class that has to spend an action per monster to turn on their damage mechanic? Good against hordes? They really aren't. Your magus friend is mediocre at using fireball and chain lightning because their spell save proficiency is lower. Not to mention that their int is also probably a point lower than their dex, because dex is more important as an attack stat for that build. Lagging wizard or kineticist by 3 points of save DC isn't ideal crowd control, just saying.
And I admit I play more high level where double or triple prey is common. Overkilling hurts. But it's definitely not as good at hordes at lower level.
Calliope5431 wrote: SuperBidi wrote: Calliope5431 wrote: On the other hand, it doesn't actually break anything because the damage is still lower than a well-built rogue or barbarian, so it's probably not a real issue. Not really. A well-built Starlit Span Magus has no issue dealing melee Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian level of damage, it actually outdamages them if well played. The Magus can also deal with hordes, something that no other martial can handle but the Inventor. And of course, the Magus has the asset of range. And if your GM is nice with Aid, the Starlit Span Magus is the one getting the most out of it.
On the other hand, it doesn't have reactions. But it hardly compensates all the Magus' assets.
That's why some people consider it overpowered. It is certainly the highest martial damage dealer in the game in the proper hands. I doubt it, no offense.
It has no off action damage, unlike every other martial (Opportune Backstabber, reactive strike, paladin reaction stab, nimble strike, opportune Riposte). At higher level you can often get multiple (swashbuckler, rogue, champion and fighter all have feats to get more than one reaction attack). It has only one attack on turn, too.
A well built paladin or fighter is getting off three or four attacks per round at entirely silly damage bonuses (greatsword and maul are waaay higher damage than longbow, and longbow has volley and thus is bad anyway at close range) and essentially no multiple attack penalty. Imaginary weapon is good, but not that good. And starlit span also barely benefits from haste and enlarge, cornerstones of martial buffing.
Plus you cannot flank. And have to deal with cover. So your effective to hit is a lot lower. Even before you compare to fighter weapon Mastery or similar. I will have to track this at some point. Volley Penalty is offset by taking Archer Archetype and Point Blank Stance. Cover doesn't come up a whole lot and is usually a +1 bonus to AC for light cover for creatures.
A lot of fighter, barb, and rogue attacks are eaten by movement.
I would think the fighter is likely still the top dog, but Starlit Span is definitely a top tier damage dealer and the absolute best Archer and it's not even close. That is who you compare them: another class using the same fighting style.
The mere fact that Starlit Span is even in a conversation with a maul or two-handed martial discussion shows how powerful they are, because any other type of archer isn't even in that conversation or even close to in that conversation.
Oh totally. I'm onboard with it being the best archer. It's not even close.
But I'm dubious it's that close to a good melee rogue or fighter. Who, after all, actually HAVE a spare action to move. And still has three or four attacks
1. On turn, -0 multiple attack penalty
2. On turn, -5 multiple attack penalty
3. Off turn, -0 multiple attack penalty
4. Off turn, -0 multiple attack penalty
Looking at level 10, magus hits for 2d8+2 (half str) + 2 (weapon specialization) + 2d6 (property runes) per bowshot as a starlit span magus with a composite longbow, plus another 9d8+4 (int mod) from amped imaginary weapon.
The fighter is up two points of accuracy if not four (from knockdown or flanking) and is swinging for 2d10 + 5 (strength modifier) + 3 (weapon specialization) + 2d6 (property runes) three or four times with a halberd.
Totals for magus, if you hit:
11d8 + 2d6 + 8 = 65
Total for fighter with three attacks, if you hit. Remember fighter has much higher accuracy and can get another attack too...
6d10 + 6d6 + 24 = 78
Fighter wins without effort and without even bothering to account for their accuracy boost or their extra reaction. It goes even higher with a maul, but reach gets more reactive strikes.
And if the fighter doesn't need to move, they can also get off ANOTHER attack (at -10 but you're a fighter) or a demoralize or any number of other things.
Biggest deal in favor of Starlit is that it does a single attack, so every large buff that last for a single attack like Aid or TS makes its damage skyrocket. You should probably account for that in your math (Like, most of the time TS alone is worth a +3 bonus and it applies to what is functionally its whole turn).
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Calliope5431 wrote: Oh totally. I'm onboard with it being the best archer. It's not even close. FYI Eldritch Archer and BeastGunner can essentially do the same trick as Starlight Span Magus with Imaginary Weapon. They have a better base to hit, but no option to True Strike it.
Gortle wrote: Calliope5431 wrote: Oh totally. I'm onboard with it being the best archer. It's not even close. FYI Eldritch Archer and BeastGunner can essentially do the same trick as Starlight Span Magus with Imaginary Weapon. They have a better base to hit, but no option to True Strike it. Quite, I've seen an Eldritch archer do it.
Difference is that it eats three actions. So you can't move or true strike if you need to.
Anyway, the issue with true strike is that you cannot do it AND recharge spellstrike every round. So it's at best an every other round boost. Which... well.
That's half of +3 or +4. Coincidentally, very similar to fighter and their +2 to hit.
And the vanilla fighter still wins out in terms of raw damage even without the extra reaction.
That's a rather shallow way of looking at it. No consideration at all for how they each scale with buffs and debuffs. For example the fighter would only get a +3 one for all aid on the first attack while the magus effectively gets it for both the strike and the attached spell. A sudden charge+strike fighter gets to compare against true strike. A tripped foe (or any other way to inflict off guard that isn't flanking) applies equally to both the fighter and magus. You should probably also include a level 3 energy mutagen for the fighter. By 10, they should have long since been able to afford a mutagen collar and a mountain of mutagens for the extra d4 on all those strikes. No calculation for critical odds either which is important when flaming and decaying runes apply persistent damage and bows come with deadly.
PossibleCabbage wrote: If your Magus is really leaning on Amped Imaginary Weapon, have them fight more than three things in a given combat and don't always give them 30 minutes free between fights.
Like the basic problem with the Magus in general and the Starlit Span Magus generally is that this is a class that very easily works itself into a rut of "do the same thing all the time."
I mean really the first Amped Imaginary Weapon is the most valuable. That's how it tends to be, in my experience with (in my case) a gunslinger, that the first enemy to take really large amount of damage permanently tilts the fight in the PCs favour. You can sorta cheat by making enemy waves where the real dangerous guy comes out at the back but at that point you're deliberately contorting the fight to soft-counter the magus at which point we're reaching "are PF1e wizards weak because Spell Resist/Anti-Magic is common on all the enemies I fight"?
And if you're sending waves of lower level enemies... it's still a bow wielding martial. With deadly. He's going to reliably crit one person with a regular bow shot then Electric Arc two dudes every round, or whatever.
gesalt wrote: That's a rather shallow way of looking at it. No consideration at all for how they each scale with buffs and debuffs. For example the fighter would only get a +3 one for all aid on the first attack while the magus effectively gets it for both the strike and the attached spell. A sudden charge+strike fighter gets to compare against true strike. A tripped foe (or any other way to inflict off guard that isn't flanking) applies equally to both the fighter and magus. You should probably also include a level 3 energy mutagen for the fighter. By 10, they should have long since been able to afford a mutagen collar and a mountain of mutagens for the extra d4 on all those strikes. No calculation for critical odds either which is important when flaming and decaying runes apply persistent damage and bows come with deadly. Not shallow, just simplified. It's important not to get carried away in specifics.
After all, if we're assuming buff rounds or friends who are aiding, there are a whole lot of things to consider. Fighter gets +4 to damage and tons of reach with enlarge, for instance.
Likewise, what about the magus needing to move or activate stances to avoid volley penalties? 30 feet isn't exactly unheard of. And in many encounters the fight is over in two or three rounds. And it might cost a spellstrike for the magus to avoid that penalty. That's really not ignorable.
We could talk about those "what ifs" all day.
Calliope, at this point Aid is not a "what if". It is a given in any somewhat optimized scenario.
True Strike is something that the Magus itself brings to the table.
Since it seems you don't want to do math with AC values, here we go: A lvl 10 comparison vs PL +1 hard AC with master Aid on for both Magus that does True Strike -> Spellstrike and then has a downtime turn and a polearm Fighter doing Fighter things and see what we get. To make it fair, magus gets 3 action cause ranged and Fighter 2 cause melee. Fighter gets to trigger 1 Reactive Strike all turns. For simplicity sake, TS is a +3. Since you had some issues with Volley, let's use the composite shortbow as well.
Magus:
21 to hit + 3 Aid + 3 TS vs 31 AC
Odd turns (TS + Spellstrike): 0'5*(3d6+3+9d8)+0'35*[(3d6+3+9d8)*2+1d10]= 66'725 Average damage
Even turns (Strike x2 + Force Fang): 0'75*(3d6+3)+0'25*[(3d6+3)*2+1d10]+3d4+3 = 28'75 average damage
Polearm fighter:
23 to hit + 3 Aid vs 31 AC. Strike twice + Reactive Strike
1'35*(2d10+1d6+8) + 0'5[(2d10+1d6+8)*2]= 52'875 average damage
Fighter loses on 1 round fights, wins on 2 round fights. Loses again on 3 round fights (not by much). 4 round fights are probably close to a tie if the Magus has the foresight of using a Gouging Claw spellstrike on their first turn, but I think calculating those is overkill at this point. Fighter values could go slighy higher with a 3rd action or a press attack, but just so it could barely win that 3rd round.
Point is, damage is competitive with a melee Fighter, as a build that will reach round 3 or 4 conscious way more that the fighter will. It also has access to spells, albeit limited. Definitely there with Fighter and Rogue as the top martial damage dealers and in expert hands I can definitely see it causing some issues due to how spiky its damage can be.
Magus has more tools at his disposal than the fighter, especially when you take into account scrolls and casting items.
I know as a Magus, I often employ 4th level invis to flat-foot enemies at range. I don't much care about using spell slots for attacking. I prefer to use them for quality utility spells.
Magus has a lot of built in tools that are very nice.
feat like redirecting shot and inspired stratagem exist
they pretty much do the true strike job
but come in only at mid level
another problem with fighter or gunslinger get eldritch archer or bestgunner is their lack of focus point feat at level 12
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Calliope5431 wrote: I doubt it, no offense. A True Striked Imaginary Weapon Spellstrike does more damage than 2 Greatsword Fighter attacks + an AoO, which can be considered an ideal round for such a character.
The Magus can also cast AoE spells for hordes.
The Magus ignores Cover and Concealment with TS. And it's a ranged character so it never has to wait to fly and is rarely debuffed by auras, melee reactions and all the crap that happens to melee characters.
The Magus can grab Clockwork Celerity (from the Inventor) at 12 to get a free Stride during first turn so it can unleash it's TSIWSS all the time.
At second round, you just recharge and Spellstrike, keeping a Hero Point or Halfling Luck on the side for a potential reroll (if the fight is tough).
Your Fighter will have hard time flanking at round one. Reactions like Opportune Backstab are nearly never triggered during round one due to the conditions to set them off.
First (and second round) damage is much more valuable than later damage, when the Fighter starts to get to the top of its game the Magus should have already ended the fight outside a stream of bad luck.
As to your Paladin, it's a joke I assume? We are speaking of top notch damage dealers, here.
The Starlit Span Magus can only be compared to the absolute end of the martial damage dealers. Since the nerf of Hammer/Flail Critical Specialization it is potentially the highest "martial" damage dealer in the game.
Also, it completely overshadows any kind of archer which are just in the dust dealing not even half of the Magus damage. This is also a balance concern (but maybe this time the solution would be to improve the other archers).
The Raven Black wrote: Starlit Span Imaginary Weapon Magus will do the following Routine :
Round 1
Cast True Strike from scroll
Spend a focus point, Spellstrike with amped IW
Round 2
Recharge Spellstrike
Strike twice or cast a spell or whatever 2 actions you want. You can even Strike and draw another scroll of True Strike (likely the optimal choice here).
Round 3
Repeat Round 1
Round 4
Repeat Round 2
Round 5
Repeat Round 1
Round 6
Repeat Round 2
Round 7
Repeat Round 1, just with something else than amped IW.
And so on.
Every combat.
Too long. Most Magus archers will just use SpellStrike AMPed Img Wpn 3 times in a row to try to end the encounter sooner.
Depending from you GM, if he/she/it is considering all lvl 12 refocus feats as remastered version (fully refocus) after level 15 you can easily recharge using Divine Inspiration scrolls (or you can simply ask to the party divine caster if you have one) and keep this working as you need.
The soft counter to a IW spamming SS magus is that the game-play loop is repetitive and boring. You'll feel all powerful and wonderful at L6 to L8. Maybe even get a one off high if you used blazons of shared power on the bow/finesse free-hand weapon while taking the spell swipe feat at L8 (i.e., GM crowds your ranged magus with melee mooks and surprise, amped IW spell swipe against two mooks). But by L9+ its going to feel super stale. Especially considering that before L6 you probably were using the force fang focus spell to recharge which is effectively the same gameplay loop (which BTW keeps a starlight span's damage on par with one that is using amped imaginary weapons if there is not enough action economy to true strike or if you've run out of hero points).
The fundamental issue is that the IW spell is too good. Dipping for cleric focus spells or 2D6 scaling spells is just fine (e.g., fire ray which runs into fire resistance a lot). But 2D8 scaling potentially against 2 creatures is obviously where the combo has broken. Really Imaginary weapon could just be moved to the later 2nd tier 'deeper' focus spell and swapped with Astral Rain. That way there is minimal changes needed. Alternatively, make the psychic surface cantrips do a baseline damage that gets improved by one damage dice step size (or some other way) as a base psychic class feature at L3 or something. That way magus can't come in and eat their lunch since it the improved version is locked to the psychic class chassis.
Suggesting further taxes on the SS Magus action economy is not the way to resolve the issue. Forcing them to sit in arcane cascade (which is an awful class feature for all magus sublcasses, but especially SS magus who literally can't benefit from it despite it losing DPR for pretty much every magus) is poor game design). The action economy of the class is stifling when you compare it to better designed classes like the kineticist. Those classes get an immediate 1 for 1 action exchange to push them through their class mechanic loop (e.g., channel elements for kineticist gives a free 1 action strike or allows you to enter a stance impulse). The magus defining class feature is spell strike. So there should be carrots added to it using/recharging it to make the gameplay better. Consider these kinds of solutions to cut down on psychic MCs:
- Improve Conflux Spells - What if there was just a in class 2D4 to 2D6 scaling focus point spell/feat that also recharged your spell strike so the marginal gains for going out of class weren't worth it (a magus fire ray that recharges) when compared to a 2 action spell strike with better than cantrip damage that left your spell strike recharged (freeing up a single action to move, kite, reposition, raise shield, demoralize, etc.). What if the current conflux spells let you recharge and make a strike that doesn't increase MAP (that way you are incentivized to using them vs. a typical amped IW but it also increases the value of arcane cascade because the magus gameplay loop will have more strikes to buy back that singular action.
- Incentivize arcane cascade gameplay loops. Wouldn't it be cool if arcane cascade did double the damage (maybe even triple is needed to reach pairity) so there could be a magus that chooses not to spell strike and focus on more attacks vs. one big attack?
- Give the starlight span hybrid study something worthwhile to do that isn't just spell strike/recharge. Its conflux spell sucks, its L4 feat sucks, and it can't benefit from arcane cascade in any meaningful way. Its like it was just tagged on there at the end because Paizo has some design guideline checklist that says 'make sure to include a ranged subclass, but make sure you don't make it too good because we all have PF1e inquisitor bane/warpriest molthuni arsenal war chaplain PTSD). What if its conflux spell was one of the multi attack options like the twisting tree (i.e., more of a flurry ranger vibe), what if it could use arcane cascade with ranged options, what if its L4 feat was compelling by providing always applicable bonus for allies to hit the same enemy (i.e., not just remove concealment but also give a +1 scaling to +2 status or circumstance bonus to allies to hit that same enemy until the end of the next round), or what if the conflux spell was control based (e.g., arrows you hit with the spell or next round spread ice in a 10ft aura -> the kind that requires acrobatic checks due to being uneven ground and causes them to fall prone, etc.). Its shocking to me that we're all trying to use the stick method against the one subclass that is completely dissociated from cool/value added/good in class options. Give it a carrot to lead it away from the IW pathway and have interesting gameplay loops.
- Make entering arcane cascade recharge your spell strike (so classes can generally avoid the 'set-up' round 1 issue.
- Recharge spell strikes on critical hits with spell strikes (i.e. bake in a 5+% chance to regain an action in the classes's tight action economy.
- Add a L6 feat to move + recharge (just a super simple action compression feat).
- Scale conflux spells. All the L1 conflux spells could get better as you level like many of the L1 kineticist impulses (again to incentivize using them).
- Add latter discipline specific or just general conflux spell options. I'm sure there are some creative support/apply a skill type options we could envision to reward people staying in the class vs. going for MC dedications/archetype options (e.g., a conflux spell that recharges, gives a strike, and readies the aid action for an allies next attack).
A lot of these boil down to 'make conflux spells better', which is a two pronged design strategy to improve the base class game-play while also limiting the total focus point pool per combat available to even use a amped IW. It should be compelling for me to choose a non amped IW option as opposed to just nerfing IW or the SS magus into the ground (options that likely lead to more DPR, but from other party members as opposed to being a selfish magus).
get both fire ray and winter bolt can keep things a little less stale with a aoo focused teammate
and more potential friendly fire
there are already too many attempt to make reload work
from swashbuckler magus to gunslinger
it always feel awful unless there are option to reload as reaction
Red Griffyn wrote: The soft counter to a IW spamming SS magus is that the game-play loop is repetitive and boring. You'll feel all powerful and wonderful at L6 to L8. Maybe even get a one off high if you used blazons of shared power on the bow/finesse free-hand weapon while taking the spell swipe feat at L8 (i.e., GM crowds your ranged magus with melee mooks and surprise, amped IW spell swipe against two mooks). But by L9+ its going to feel super stale. Especially considering that before L6 you probably were using the force fang focus spell to recharge which is effectively the same gameplay loop (which BTW keeps a starlight span's damage on par with one that is using amped imaginary weapons if there is not enough action economy to true strike or if you've run out of hero points).
The fundamental issue is that the IW spell is too good. Dipping for cleric focus spells or 2D6 scaling spells is just fine (e.g., fire ray which runs into fire resistance a lot). But 2D8 scaling potentially against 2 creatures is obviously where the combo has broken. Really Imaginary weapon could just be moved to the later 2nd tier 'deeper' focus spell and swapped with Astral Rain. That way there is minimal changes needed. Alternatively, make the psychic surface cantrips do a baseline damage that gets improved by one damage dice step size (or some other way) as a base psychic class feature at L3 or something. That way magus can't come in and eat their lunch since it the improved version is locked to the psychic class chassis.
Suggesting further taxes on the SS Magus action economy is not the way to resolve the issue. Forcing them to sit in arcane cascade (which is an awful class feature for all magus sublcasses, but especially SS magus who literally can't benefit from it despite it losing DPR for pretty much every magus) is poor game design). The action economy of the class is stifling when you compare it to better designed classes like the kineticist. Those classes get an immediate 1 for 1 action exchange to push them through their...
Please stop the hyperbole. Arcane cascade isn't that bad or hard to get into. How useful it is can be campaign specific but stop trying to make it sound useless for the other subclasses.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
In my particular build, I don't want to use Arcane Cascade. I prefer Point Blank Stance. The longbow is a better weapon than the shortbow. Point Blank Stance eliminates the Volley problem.
I thought the Magus would be super boring, but it isn't. Even out of combat, you're like a mini-wizard who can memorize some useful non-combat spells.
Runic Impression is nice for triggering energy weaknesses and saves a lot of money on a weapon. You only have to buy two runes at max level for a Magus weapon.
Standby Spell is super nice for having an AoE at the ready.
Studious spells are great for a haste or a true strike.
A class like the magus really benefits from scroll use with their limited spell slots. Easy to get a bunch of See Invis and 4th level invis scrolls made.
Your intel stat gives you more skills than a common non-intel class.
You can take advantage of some nice archetypes like the psychic or wizard to expand your spell options.
Starlit Span let's use Spellstrike in Melee if you want to switch hit.
It's pretty easy to grab archetypes. The class doesn't get that boring unless you make that boring.
SuperBidi wrote: Also, it completely overshadows any kind of archer which are just in the dust dealing not even half of the Magus damage. This is also a balance concern (but maybe this time the solution would be to improve the other archers). I wish they'd finally give the ranged martial side some love. Extremely limited to no feat choices, most impactful choices are level 8+, builds are usually very one-note (Strike a million times for archers and once for Eldritch Archer/reload weapons) and most builds are of middling effectiveness at best. With even just the little bits we have from SF2, you really notice how heavily PF2 favours melee in almost every respect.
Starlit Span at least gets the numbers and native access to spellcasting, which makes it ironically one of the more engaging ranged options. Which unfortunately isn't saying much.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Karmagator wrote: I wish they'd finally give the ranged martial side some love. Extremely limited to no feat choices, most impactful choices are level 8+, builds are usually very one-note (Strike a million times for archers and once for Eldritch Archer/reload weapons) and most builds are of middling effectiveness at best. With even just the little bits we have from SF2, you really notice how heavily PF2 favours melee in almost every respect. Ranged martials are a bit of an oddball to me. They deal damage, like everyone, and that's all they do. Spellcasters are fragile but they have a lot of utility. Melee martials are tanking on top of dealing damage. But archers... no, they just deal damage and that's all.
In my opinion, it's a failed design right from the start. They should have a role that is not covered by exactly everyone.
Karmagator wrote: SuperBidi wrote: Also, it completely overshadows any kind of archer which are just in the dust dealing not even half of the Magus damage. This is also a balance concern (but maybe this time the solution would be to improve the other archers). I wish they'd finally give the ranged martial side some love. Extremely limited to no feat choices, most impactful choices are level 8+, builds are usually very one-note (Strike a million times for archers and once for Eldritch Archer/reload weapons) and most builds are of middling effectiveness at best. With even just the little bits we have from SF2, you really notice how heavily PF2 favours melee in almost every respect.
Starlit Span at least gets the numbers and native access to spellcasting, which makes it ironically one of the more engaging ranged options. Which unfortunately isn't saying much. does double throw count as range martial they are pretty strong and versatile especially after thrower bandolier was added
SuperBidi wrote: Karmagator wrote: I wish they'd finally give the ranged martial side some love. Extremely limited to no feat choices, most impactful choices are level 8+, builds are usually very one-note (Strike a million times for archers and once for Eldritch Archer/reload weapons) and most builds are of middling effectiveness at best. With even just the little bits we have from SF2, you really notice how heavily PF2 favours melee in almost every respect. Ranged martials are a bit of an oddball to me. They deal damage, like everyone, and that's all they do. Spellcasters are fragile but they have a lot of utility. Melee martials are tanking on top of dealing damage. But archers... no, they just deal damage and that's all.
In my opinion, it's a failed design right from the start. They should have a role that is not covered by exactly everyone. it can feel a little lacking
fighter have debilitating shot
the one good trick they can pull with range weapon
gunslinger have a few fancy trick at range but most are weak or far too high level like twin shot knockdown
Riddlyn wrote: Please stop the hyperbole. Arcane cascade isn't that bad or hard to get into. How useful it is can be campaign specific but stop trying to make it sound useless for the other subclasses. You must not have actually tried to make it work in actual combat. The entire subclass feature of all melee magus is dependent on being in arcane cascade but it requires your last action be a spell or spellstrikes, effectively saying you must be a sitting duck or waste a turn. If arcane cascade didn't have any requirement at all then it would just be an action you can use on a turn where you don't use a two action activity to get those benefits. The only time it works sort of okay is when you can use a conflux spell because they are one action, but then you can't get the bonus of exploiting a weakness as it'll just be force damage, and previously the damage type of your weapon(worst of all). More over you will be wasting a recharge of spell strike if you do this round one, meaning you have to delay turning on your subclass features until round 2
Deriven Firelion wrote: In my particular build, I don't want to use Arcane Cascade. I prefer Point Blank Stance. The longbow is a better weapon than the shortbow. Point Blank Stance eliminates the Volley problem. Arcane cascade literally does nothing for starlit span. It only adds damage to melee strikes. There is no reason to do anything but point blank stance
25speedforseaweedleshy wrote: does double throw count as range martial they are pretty strong and versatile especially after thrower bandolier was added Dual Thrower is basically an even more restricted version of a dual-wield Gunslinger, as your "reloads" (i.e. you drawing a new thrown weapon) are completely dead actions and you usually have even less range. Doesn't feel strong to me, at least, but rather a strong candidate for the "middling at best" category.
Thrower's Bandolier doesn't help such a build at all as far as I can tell, as you can only replicate the runes on a single weapon at a time.
It sort of falls into the "ranged martial" category, but suffers from the exact same problems, particularly not really being able to do anything but deal damage.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The magus lost me as a class I want to play when it folded spell strike into one big activity that couldn't be held as a charge until the following round. I would probably still play a play-test magus if given the chance, but finding a table for that is about impossible, and I have as much fun with wizards as I would ever have with a magus.
At my tables, 2 players have built magi, then retrained those characters into fighter after several levels of play because they really didn't enjoy being the target of reactive strikes (both of these were after level 10, so reactive strikes were fairly common, even on the foot soldier type of enemies the party was encountering frequently). They also realized they were far more interested in casting the kinds of buffing spells that Fighter MC casters get about as many of as magi do. But I do see people on the forums talking about how much fun they are having with the Magus class, so I assume it is doing ok. I am sure the Starlit Span Magus is a popular one because people love the idea of big nova rounds, even if they only use them about once an encounter.
I did play through level 1 of a PbP Kingmaker game that had a 2 handed Polearm magus, but that character died from massive damage in the second or third encounter. I think the player maybe landed one spell strike in that whole game. I think that the Starlit span Magus also benefits from being able to dump strength with little recourse, since they want INT to be high, so they can still cast AoE spells with some efficacy.
I have actually played a Tangible Dream Psychic for about a level before the GM had to drop the game (The table I get to play as a character has had extremely bad luck with GMs for a while, which is why I end up GMing so much). I used Imaginary Weapon to great effect 2 times over the course of level 1. But the Tangible Dream Psychic plays best as a Tanky frontliner which requires you to almost always have your AMPed shield up, so imaginary weapon is less of an every round spell, and more of a carefully orchestrated nova move, if the encounter allows for it. As good a spell as it can be, I think a remastered version that targeted Reflex would probably make the spell better for the psychic, and help offset the loss of attribute damage that happened with the Remaster Errata. Do any Starlit Span Magi MC'd into Psychic even use the Amp shield that they get at 2nd level? Or is it just an extra focus point to use with a conflux spell until level 6?
I think magus needs an unchained, personally. I don't want to see spellstrike go, I just also would like them to be more flexible most of all. I would say without a doubt that is my biggest issue with the class. I feel like the class fantasy is in teleporting and hitting dudes like laughing shadow, but I actually feel like this being exclusive to the rogue-ish version of the class is a mistake when I kind of want to get some Mass Effect 2/3 vanguard energy here with the teleport. I think the magus should get to use telekinetic magic to swing their weapon with more range like the bell bearing hunter from Elden Ring. It may be the case that the magus should just use intelligence to hit, but not damage, with weapons, make their kas int and spellstrike include save spells by default like the playtest. This way they can use more kinds of spells as part of their routine and only be slightly behind fullcaster DCs. Spellstrike is cool, but I rather it be one of a few things the class does to feel magical. I've mentioned I want spell combat back, basically a variable action activity that allows you to do a normal strike and cast a spell for the same number of actions as the spell. A little action economy save
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
AestheticDialectic wrote: Riddlyn wrote: Please stop the hyperbole. Arcane cascade isn't that bad or hard to get into. How useful it is can be campaign specific but stop trying to make it sound useless for the other subclasses. You must not have actually tried to make it work in actual combat. The entire subclass feature of all melee magus is dependent on being in arcane cascade but it requires your last action be a spell or spellstrikes, effectively saying you must be a sitting duck or waste a turn. If arcane cascade didn't have any requirement at all then it would just be an action you can use on a turn where you don't use a two action activity to get those benefits. The only time it works sort of okay is when you can use a conflux spell because they are one action, but then you can't get the bonus of exploiting a weakness as it'll just be force damage, and previously the damage type of your weapon(worst of all). More over you will be wasting a recharge of spell strike if you do this round one, meaning you have to delay turning on your subclass features until round 2
Deriven Firelion wrote: In my particular build, I don't want to use Arcane Cascade. I prefer Point Blank Stance. The longbow is a better weapon than the shortbow. Point Blank Stance eliminates the Volley problem. Arcane cascade literally does nothing for starlit span. It only adds damage to melee strikes. There is no reason to do anything but point blank stance Actually I have and do in a current campaign. Using the sparkling targe study and I make very effective use of arcane cascade regularly. I've played a laughing shadow and inexorable iron studies as well. And I've always made good use of cascade and I've never felt like I wasted a turn or action activating it
I honestly think you guys are exaggerating Magus' problems a bit. For me it doesn't need a big change like an unchained, but rather something more like a remastered with changes like the ones below to solve the main problems of the class:
Remove the risk of AoO RS from the Magus, as this is bad both mechanically and creates a disadvantage in melees that Starlit Span does not suffer, in addition to contextually it makes little sense for the magus' lore also because makes little sense that it not trained to avoid opening his guard when SpellStriking.
Add compressions to the Recharge actions of the different magus subclasses, such as Strike and Recharge with the Press trait for Inexorable Iron, Hide and Recharge for Laughing Shadow, Rise a Shield and Recharge for Sparkling Targe and something similar (sorry, I don't know what exactly Twisting Tree would be) without spending focus points for it, just 1 action, as this would compensate for the constant advantage of operating as a turret that Starlit Span has.
Add an action to Recharge and enter Arcane Cascade to the class chassis in order to encourage entering the stance. This solves the issue of people not entering the stance because the necessary action is sometimes more useful to be spent on Recharge.
I don't see the problems for Arcane Cascade on melee Magi either. It works pretty well, even if it could work better. Inexorable Iron's benefits are rather questionable, but that's really the only problem. It's only Starlit Span where Arcane Cascade completely runs into a wall.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Arcane cascade is best on starlit span, because you don't need to use it at all. I would prefer a magus without the class feature entirely if I am being perfectly honest. If we must have it, I rather it have no conditions that need to be met to enter. You enter the stance, it has force damage then once you use a damage spell it switches to that damage type. Every time I have played a magus the arcane cascade stance made the class feel very clunky and less dynamic and fluid compared to literally anyone else. It is by far the feature I like the least on the class and would be happy to see it go/replaced
roquepo wrote: Calliope, at this point Aid is not a "what if". It is a given in any somewhat optimized scenario.
True Strike is something that the Magus itself brings to the table.
Since it seems you don't want to do math with AC values, here we go: A lvl 10 comparison vs PL +1 hard AC with master Aid on for both Magus that does True Strike -> Spellstrike and then has a downtime turn and a polearm Fighter doing Fighter things and see what we get. To make it fair, magus gets 3 action cause ranged and Fighter 2 cause melee. Fighter gets to trigger 1 Reactive Strike all turns. For simplicity sake, TS is a +3. Since you had some issues with Volley, let's use the composite shortbow as well.
Magus:
21 to hit + 3 Aid + 3 TS vs 31 AC
Odd turns (TS + Spellstrike): 0'5*(3d6+3+9d8)+0'35*[(3d6+3+9d8)*2+1d10]= 66'725 Average damage
Even turns (Strike x2 + Force Fang): 0'75*(3d6+3)+0'25*[(3d6+3)*2+1d10]+3d4+3 = 28'75 average damage
Polearm fighter:
23 to hit + 3 Aid vs 31 AC. Strike twice + Reactive Strike
1'35*(2d10+1d6+8) + 0'5[(2d10+1d6+8)*2]= 52'875 average damage
Fighter loses on 1 round fights, wins on 2 round fights. Loses again on 3 round fights (not by much). 4 round fights are probably close to a tie if the Magus has the foresight of using a Gouging Claw spellstrike on their first turn, but I think calculating those is overkill at this point. Fighter values could go slighy higher with a 3rd action or a press attack, but just so it could barely win that 3rd round.
Point is, damage is competitive with a melee Fighter, as a build that will reach round 3 or 4 conscious way more that the fighter will. It also has access to spells, albeit limited. Definitely there with Fighter and Rogue as the top martial damage dealers and in expert hands I can definitely see it causing some issues due to how spiky its damage can be.
Aid is a bloody mess on several levels. Can you aid at range? In melee? With spell attacks? Nobody actually knows, and it does rely on a kind GM. I prefer not to rely on those.
But much more to the point, I don't subscribe to the orthodox opinion that Aid is actually the best use of another martial's third action (assuming spellcasters can't do it, which, uh, who knows?). That's because it not only costs an action (rogues with preparation, kineticists, and flurry rangers are loathe to give those up) but it ALSO costs them a reaction.
Is the party champion going to give up their reaction to Aid you? Or the party rogue, who could otherwise be backstabbing? Is the party giant barbarian going to sacrifice their Reactive Strike for you?
Of course not. And their third action could ALSO be better used on any number of things, from Elf Stepping to Demoralize to Scare to Death to casting a focus spell such as Lay On Hands.
I'm not saying that this build can't work, but what I am saying is that Aid is in no way guaranteed and even if it were it's costing your party something.
SuperBidi wrote:
The Magus can also cast AoE spells for hordes.
And do what? Watch the monsters succeed and crit succeed? That's not really a good use of actions OR spell slots.
Quote:
As to your Paladin, it's a joke I assume? We are speaking of top notch damage dealers, here.
Also, it completely overshadows any kind of archer which are just in the dust dealing not even half of the Magus damage. This is also a balance concern (but maybe this time the solution would be to improve the other archers).
Paladin deals perfectly serviceable damage. It has multiple MAPless attacks with a polearm that also deflect damage and deal persistent spirit damage, and have a bonus damage rune from Radiant Blade Spirit. It's not a rogue, but then again nothing is.
If we're talking about top notch damage dealers, I recommend removing the word "archer" from the conversation. Because apart from Eldritch Archer and Starlit Span, they might as well not exist.
It's like saying that investigators are somewhat competitive as the "best crossbow users" or that alchemists are "the best at using alchemy". They're top of the heap, but the heap in question happens to be a flaming pile of garbage.
I'm happy Starlit Span and Eldritch Archer exist to make archery a useful combat style, but barring a party that's somewhat built around them they're not going to consistently outdamage a fighter or rogue.
You do realize both fake out and one for all exist right? Are you that unable to comprehend that optimized parties are almost required to have a high cha caster with access to both synesthesia's clumsy 3 status penalty and one for all's +1-+4 circumstance bonus? Whether it's a bard, sorcerer, cleric with the right diety or whatever else? Or a magus or archer fighter getting fake out off every round because they have little else to do with their reaction? If your party isn't getting Aid left and right you've already failed at basic optimization.
I don't suppose you've realized either that at your own sample level of 10 a magus with 14 or 16 base int is only 1 point behind a full caster's DC. Maybe 1 fewer mook will fail their save. Boo hoo. Magi don't irrevocably fall behind on DC until level 15+ with a full caster's early master proficiency, then their apex item and then legendary proficiency.
Edit: that's unfair. With the new DC 15 for Aid, even base 10 cha characters have a ~70%ish critical success chance to one for all Aid by level 10 with master proficiency and a +2 item.
gesalt wrote: You do realize both fake out and one for all exist right? Are you that unable to comprehend that optimized parties are almost required to have a high cha caster with access to both synesthesia's clumsy 3 status penalty and one for all's +1-+4 circumstance bonus? Whether it's a bard, sorcerer, cleric with the right diety or whatever else? Or a magus or archer fighter getting fake out off every round because they have little else to do with their reaction? If your party isn't getting Aid left and right you've already failed at basic optimization.
I don't suppose you've realized either that at your own sample level of 10 a magus with 14 or 16 base int is only 1 point behind a full caster's DC. Maybe 1 fewer mook will fail their save. Boo hoo. Magi don't irrevocably fall behind on DC until level 15+ with a full caster's early master proficiency, then their apex item and then legendary proficiency.
Edit: that's unfair. With the new DC 15 for Aid, even base 10 cha characters have a ~70%ish critical success chance to one for all Aid by level 10 with master proficiency and a +2 item.
There's no need to get insulting, here.
Now, let's address your argument.
Synesthesia only somewhat exists at this point. It exists in the same way cone of cold exists - some GMs may well take the opportunity afforded by the remaster to ban it. I know some who already have. And, of course, it's available to everyone. The fighter also gets improved crit chances.
As for "one for all"... it's swashbuckler. If you have a swashbuckler in your party, you have bigger issues than whether or not you're getting Aid. If you multiclassed swashbuckler...eh, sure, I guess. I wouldn't, but it's a decent thing that you can do. Likewise, fake out is gunslinger specifically, but sure. You can if you want.
Personally? The biggest limit on Aid that I see is it's competing with both opportunity attacks and other reaction stabs, and with critical third actions like bon mot, elemental toss, movement, and the like. I rather doubt whether giving the party magus an attack bonus is worth blowing your opportune backstabber, scare to death, or raise a symbol on. But possibly.
Again, I'm not trying to insult starlit span. I'm pointing out that it simply isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Quality? Yes. Competitive damage? Of course. Broken? Heck no.
In an FA game, Swashbuckler is a solid dip for any Cha caster to take with Multitalented because you can grab One For All and the reflex save proficiency bump feat and then be done with it.
Tsubutai wrote: In an FA game, Swashbuckler is a solid dip for any Cha caster to take with Multitalented because you can grab One For All and the reflex save proficiency bump feat and then be done with it. raised eyebrow
That's a very libertine approach to FA, I have to say. Most FA games I've seen lock in your choices more than "I get a free archetype feat every level with no restrictions".
But true.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
All this All for One love, and the Psychic is sitting over there with two different paths to an aid build with native Synesthesia access.
Riddlyn wrote: Red Griffyn wrote: The soft counter to a IW spamming SS magus is that the game-play loop is repetitive and boring. You'll feel all powerful and wonderful at L6 to L8. Maybe even get a one off high if you used blazons of shared power on the bow/finesse free-hand weapon while taking the spell swipe feat at L8 (i.e., GM crowds your ranged magus with melee mooks and surprise, amped IW spell swipe against two mooks). But by L9+ its going to feel super stale. Especially considering that before L6 you probably were using the force fang focus spell to recharge which is effectively the same gameplay loop (which BTW keeps a starlight span's damage on par with one that is using amped imaginary weapons if there is not enough action economy to true strike or if you've run out of hero points).
The fundamental issue is that the IW spell is too good. Dipping for cleric focus spells or 2D6 scaling spells is just fine (e.g., fire ray which runs into fire resistance a lot). But 2D8 scaling potentially against 2 creatures is obviously where the combo has broken. Really Imaginary weapon could just be moved to the later 2nd tier 'deeper' focus spell and swapped with Astral Rain. That way there is minimal changes needed. Alternatively, make the psychic surface cantrips do a baseline damage that gets improved by one damage dice step size (or some other way) as a base psychic class feature at L3 or something. That way magus can't come in and eat their lunch since it the improved version is locked to the psychic class chassis.
Suggesting further taxes on the SS Magus action economy is not the way to resolve the issue. Forcing them to sit in arcane cascade (which is an awful class feature for all magus sublcasses, but especially SS magus who literally can't benefit from it despite it losing DPR for pretty much every magus) is poor game design). The action economy of the class is stifling when you compare it to better designed classes like the kineticist. Those classes get an immediate 1 for 1 action exchange
... It isn't hyperbole. It is quantifiable. The class makes ~1 strike per round on average, maybe 2 on a round you can't spell strike and have to recharge with a conflux spell. In a 5 round combat you're likely to get 4 uses on a 0 MAP attack and maybe 0 to 2 strikes on a MAP-5 attack on martial attack scaling. You either cast spell X then enter stance in round 1, or enter stance in round 2 after using your conflux spell. That one action to enter the stance has an opportunity cost that can be significant for the Magus that has such a tight action economy issue. That 1 action to enter it essentially equates to the loss of a spell strike round or loss of a true strike since in round 2-5 you needed that floating action to recharge, reposition, or do something else. On average you might have a 60% chance to hit on those MAP 0 attacks and 35% chance to hit on the MAP -5 strikes.
Taking all of that together you are essentially trading 1 action for
- 4 strikes across combat x 60% x 1 to 3 damage added for 0 MAP attacks
- 2 strike across combat x 35% x 1 to 3 damage added for -5 MAP attacks
So we're talking potentially ~3.1 to 9.3 DPR across an entire 5 round combat from Level 1 to 20. Obviously more if we can trigger weaknesses, but that isn't reliable and you can potentially run into the opposite issue of running into resistances or having to use a worse spell to get the right element as the damage added for arcane cascade.
I can tell you now that the DPR difference in that one round is much higher for a loss of a true strike (especially on an amped IW) and still higher for a loss of a reposition/move action necessary to set-up the spell strike. Here is a high level comparison to illustrate my point. The lowest and second lowest curves are the I'm in arcane cascade but only made 1-2 strikes in a round I could have spell striked (if only you had that free floating action). The middle two curves are the standard 'no true strike' amped imaginary weapon rounds and are always 3-5 x higher than the damage contributed from arcane cascade. The highest two curves are true strike + amped imaginary weapon rounds and are roughly 8-10x higher than the damage contributed from arcane cascade.
Also feel free to go look at the 3 round calculations I posted a week or two ago in a similar thread.
Effectively the shoe 'drops' at some point and the loss of that action for arcane cascade is almost never worth it (especially for the starlight span that literally gets no benefit).
Now if they made it a free action, or a free recharge action compression, or tripled the damage (which as stated above isn't getting you there), or did other things you might be able to rehabilitate it.
(so you
You're probably getting 4-5 strikes
The best DPR you can pump out with the class relies on spell striking every round. There is a distinct lack of action compression options that allow the magus to recover
Extremely appreciated Griffyn. I hadn't even considered the DPR loss from using an action for arcane cascade. This kind of compounds my feelings on the class
|
