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Honestly it seems like Legacy wizards would have been a bigger problem since most of them insist of magic schools. I don't see what fundamental part of the game Oracles are breaking which is so much worse than Wizards.
I suppose the Remaster is stronger, but it is hard for me to even be motivated to check because what does it really matter, I am not making a choice. I either remaster or don't play my oracle at all and that isn't a real choice.
I never thought of the complexity of Oracle as a bug. It is in the APG I figured it was feature. Something different for the players looking for complexity for complexities sake. It helped tell a story not win a battle more Sorcerer or Cleric and people who played Oracle long enough to have strong feelings about Oracles get that. We weren't asking for more power and less flavor. For min-maxers its okay, but there are definitely some of us who would like the opportunity to play the flavor.
So I guess the question is why do the names need to be the same in Remaster so that it overwrites the Legacy? What purpose does that serve? Instead of Mysteries and Curses, could PC2 call them Divine Contradictions and Blowback respectively? Any name that doesn't overwrite the old mechanics would be nice.
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Hey so I have a question, guys: on the previous page, there was a document which basically said that for pre-Remaster characters, they can continue using the old chassis if they have recorded games before August 12. And from the PC1 Remaster version of the rules, my understanding is that if an option has been reprinted with the same name, we're meant to use the newer printed version... my question is about my archetype dedication feat, specifically my Champion dedication. The new version does not get heavy armor proficiency automatically and based on my base class, I would not get it with the dedication. Do I need to downgrade my armor since the dedication feat has been replaced with a new version? If I do, do I get full value back for my armor or do I have to sell it back at half price? How does this work?
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Hey so I have a question, guys: on the previous page, there was a document which basically said that for pre-Remaster characters, they can continue using the old chassis if they have recorded games before August 12. And from the PC1 Remaster version of the rules, my understanding is that if an option has been reprinted with the same name, we're meant to use the newer printed version... my question is about my archetype dedication feat, specifically my Champion dedication. The new version does not get heavy armor proficiency automatically and based on my base class, I would not get it with the dedication. Do I need to downgrade my armor since the dedication feat has been replaced with a new version? If I do, do I get full value back for my armor or do I have to sell it back at half price? How does this work?
Unless you have a rebuild, I'm afraid you have to sell it back at half price. The runes can be transferred to the new armor at the standard 10% rate, at least. If you bought a specific piece of magic armor, though... Ouch.
E.G. You used to wear +1 full plate. First, you buy a breastplate for 8 GP. Then you pay 16 GP to have the potency rune transferred. Finally, you sell the full plate for 15 gp.
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E.G. You used to wear +1 full plate. First, you buy a breastplate for 8 GP. Then you pay 16 GP to have the potency rune transferred. Finally, you sell the full plate for 15 gp.
You get to sell back at full price.
"If an errata or FAQ changes a class or archetype so that you no longer have proficiency with a given weapon or armor type, you can sell back any affected equipment at full price. You can also swap out any feats directly associated with the affected equipment."
"Remember, if a character option is reprinted with the same name in any Remastered rulebook, you must use the new version as if it were errata."
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E.G. You used to wear +1 full plate. First, you buy a breastplate for 8 GP. Then you pay 16 GP to have the potency rune transferred. Finally, you sell the full plate for 15 gp.
You get to sell back at full price.
"If an errata or FAQ changes a class or archetype so that you no longer have proficiency with a given weapon or armor type, you can sell back any affected equipment at full price. You can also swap out any feats directly associated with the affected equipment."
"Remember, if a character option is reprinted with the same name in any Remastered rulebook, you must use the new version as if it were errata."
Oh, I'd forgotten that passage. Thabks for catching that.
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I would like to rebuild my Champion for Society play to utilize some of the new options. Since I'd like to keep the Redeemer cause, I believe I'll have to pick a new deity, as Pharasma doesn't allow holy sanctification, so she's no longer a valid option for a remastered Redeemer. (I am making this assumption specifically because I am considering rebuilding, rather than continuing to use the old CRB chassis for Champion utilizing remaster errata.)
However, the vast majority of deities not in the Core 20, along with the one who will be joining the Core 20 later this year, have only errata'd versions of their allowable sanctifications. If I select a deity who has not yet received official sanctification information other than through that errata, and that deity is later printed without holy sanctification even though the errata allows for that sanctification now, would I be required to then purchase a rebuild boon to select another deity?
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After reading through some of the new information regarding PC2 here, here, and here, it seems to me to be a relatively reasonable arrangement.
If I'm reading everything right, it looks like each character gets a free rebuild, regardless of whether they're from Player Core 1 or 2, provided they already existed in some form.
There's still an issue with the forced pseudo-errata totally messing with legacy oracles and a few other characters though. Hopefully that will get sorted out prior to the 12th so that people have a full breadth of options available to them.
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I have a 7th-level kobold rogue with dozens of snares that he's crafted with his downtime over the course of his career. Since he was field commissioned prior to the rebuild, he had a lot of time to craft his snares at a discount.
When Player Core 1 released, I opted to rebuild him to the modern chasis to take advantage of changes to feats like Gang Up. Per the rebuild rules, I took the sell everything at full value option. I then bought everything back, still leaving me with a wagon load of snares.
I understand that I don't get to rebuild the character again with the release of Player Core 2, since I've already done that, but I do still need to update all the same name elements as though it were errata'd. That means his ancestry languages, ancestry feats, pretty much anything from the Advanced Player's Guide, and most of his snares.
My question is this: What should I do with the dozens of snares he has crafted and carried around all this time? The Remasterd snare rules say you spend your money as you set your snares in the field, so there really is no need for my little kobold to burden himself with carrying around dozens of prepared snares anymore. What, per the PFS rules and guidelines, should I do with them? Sell them off at full value and use the gold as a far more flexible pool of materials for my snares? Not all of the snares are from the Advanced Player's Guide either, and so do not fall under the rule of errata.
I'm guessing that's the case, but I wanted to double check because it seems like I'm going to end up with a lot more gold than expected for a PFS character of my level on account of his strange gaming history.
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Add me to the people who were wrong about the remaster rules- I had the same confusion expressed by someone else, not realizing that "[a] second rebuild of this type will not be granted following the release of Player Core 2" meant that a rebuild would not be granted at all (i.e, a first rebuild) for the classes pending Player Core 2. Several people in my immediate group just joined PFS a few months ago and are using some of those classes (Alchemist, Barbarian, Investigator). I just started playing PFS again in the last few months but I do have older credits so am not as affected as they are, but I know they also didn't realize the implications of the change.
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Unless I missed a recent change, I don't believe that's the case.
The free rebuild that every character gets is still in effect, as long as you use it before December 31, 2024.
They say they won't do another free rebuild after PC2's release because they don't have to. The first one is still in effect for all characters.
2. Beginning on August 12, 2024, if a class has been reprinted in Player Core 2, no new characters may be created using its class chassis as printed in the Core Rulebook or Advanced Player’s Guide. "Class chassis" means everything that all members of a class receive; roughly, this means the text in a class description which comes before the list of class feats.
-- 1. This affects the following classes: alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, swashbuckler.
-- 2. Characters with at least 1 game reported prior to August 12 may be built using the Core Rulebook or Advanced Player’s Guide chassis.
-- 3. Previously-existing characters with at least 1 game reported may continue their progression using the Core Rulebook or Advanced Player’s Guide chassis. They may not use the chassis in Player Core 2 without rebuilding.
Note that the last sentence is identical to the section of guidance for Player Core 1. It's not indicating that you must pay for a rebuild, just that you need to rebuild if you want to take advantage of the new chasis.
On November 15, 2023, all characters with at least one game reported were granted one free rebuild. This is a full rebuild; you may completely alter a character’s ancestry, class, background, and any options selected. You may not alter the adventures a character has participated in, nor may you alter a character’s Reputation earned.
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5. This rebuild must be used before December 31, 2024. A second rebuild of this type will not be granted following the release of Player Core 2.
I don't even believe it's limited to specific classes. It says ALL characters that fall within the grace period get one free rebuild. That means Player Core 2 classed characters can take advantage as well.
They didn't say no to a free rebuild. They said no to a second round of rebuilds. In short, if you used your free rebuild after PC1, you shouldn't expect a second free rebuild on the same character after PC2's release.
Pretty sure I got a handle on it now, so unless an Venture Captain or other knowledgeable Paizo authority straight up tells me I'm wrong, this is how I am going to move forward.
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It’s available for all classes, just not for characters created after November 15th, 2023. I think in other threads you established that you group was good, because the characters had credits from before then.
The current guidance is that no character that did not have at least 1XP before November 15th, 2023 gets the rebuild, regardless of class. Some of us would like to see that amended at least for Alchemists and Oracles, as those characters potentially become unplayable if they don’t rebuild.
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It’s available for all classes, just not for characters created after November 15th, 2023. I think in other threads you established that you group was good, because the characters had credits from before then.
The current guidance is that no character that did not have at least 1XP before November 15th, 2023 gets the rebuild, regardless of class. Some of us would like to see that amended at least for Alchemists and Oracles, as those characters potentially become unplayable if they don’t rebuild.
I support you in your endeavors.
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Could somebody explain to me like I'm 5 the new rules for Grab?
A monster with a bite attack that does, for example, 2d8 piercing + Grab in the statblock for damage, does it bite for 1 action and roll Ath to Grab as a 2nd action? Or is Grab a free roll?
Old Grab: After hitting, spend an action to auto grab
Remastered Grab: After hitting, spend an action to roll for Grapple (Does not apply or add to MAP)
Improved Grab: As above but does not cost an action.
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For Champions Flash of Grandeur ... it says the the attacker is affected by Revealing Light... since this is a spell with an AREA does this mean Revealing Light hits the attacker and all in that area? or is it the target of Revealing Light changed to simply "The Attacker" ... also does the attacker get a Save? (the Relentless Reaction at Level 9 seems to indicate it would save to determine how long the effects of Revealing Light are on them ... but just want to be sure)
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Adding my voice to express profound disappointment regarding Oracle and treating all the new Oracle mysteries as errata. In one stroke both the roleplaying flavor/concept behind my beloved ancestors oracle as well as the playability of his build has been neutralized. I sincerely hope this approach will be reconsidered.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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I support you in your endeavors.It’s available for all classes, just not for characters created after November 15th, 2023. I think in other threads you established that you group was good, because the characters had credits from before then.
The current guidance is that no character that did not have at least 1XP before November 15th, 2023 gets the rebuild, regardless of class. Some of us would like to see that amended at least for Alchemists and Oracles, as those characters potentially become unplayable if they don’t rebuild.
It feels like you two are talking past each other.
Ravindork is correct in that all characters did get a free rebuild.However, as Ravindork quoted and what I think Ferious Thune is trying to say, is that this only applies:
On November 15, 2023, all characters with at least one game reported were granted one free rebuild.
Thus, only "old" characters gained that rebuild. If you your character had 0 games reported on nov 15th, but then played a game on january 1st of 2024, they would not be eligile for a free rebuild, because they missed the original deadline for the rebuild.
It doesn't matter what the character class is - if they were created a week or month or 6 months ago, they don't have a free rebuild.
The point is that old characters got a rebuild to transition into the new remaster versions of classes, while new characters - those created after the deadline - do not get a rebuild, because they don't need a rebuild, because they can already build using the new classes.
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Now, the gripe everyone is having is that this system does not take into account characters that were created after 15th of november, but using classes that did not yet get reprinted before PC2. If you're one of the folks who rolled an oracle this year, before PC2, and managed to get 12+ xp and played the character at level 2+, you're stuck with a broken character unless you purchase a separate boon to rebuild the character.
As stated previously, any characters created after November of 2023 are not granted a free Remaster Rebuild. Characters who wish to rebuild must purchase a boon to do so.
EDIT:
I have to add that I strongly believe this isn't the right way to handle the 'newish' characters.It is completely arbitrary to tell people that half of their class (mysteries) get automatically updated to the new version regardless of whether they want it or not, and then tell them that the other half of their class (chassis) does not. It accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Either let old oracles use the old versions of their mysteries, or let them update their chassis to the new version for free.
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There are many Reddit threads and thousands of comments about the Orcale. 80 percent of players dislike the new Orcale and want to keep thier old Orcale.
If Paizo doesn't reverse the decision it shall always be known as the Great Orcale Debacle. And it will be evident that they don't care about thier player base. Will they WOTC this or make the right decision?
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*Checks PC2 entry on the Resources and Options page*
As the player of a diabolist back in 1e PFS, I salute all the imp familiars out there that have abruptly dissolved into the aether.
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I have to add that I strongly believe this isn't the right way to handle the 'newish' characters.
It is completely arbitrary to tell people that half of their class (mysteries) get automatically updated to the new version regardless of whether they want it or not, and then tell them that the other half of their class (chassis) does not. It accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Either let old oracles use the old versions of their mysteries, or let them update their chassis to the new version for free.
This. The whole thing just comes across from Paizo as obstinance: "we said we were only giving people a rebuild if they existed as of PC1 and we're going with that despite no one realizing at the time the problems it would cause Oracle players."
The class changes aren't great, to put it kindly. It's by far the worst received remaster class, for good reasons. The decision to treat the mystery/curse as separate from the "class chassis" and force people to use the new one even while the rest of the class is still the old one is absurd and creates confusing rules situations... but then to say "we created this ridiculous situation and we're sticking with not letting you rebuild to try and fix it" is a baffling position that there's no good justification for.
Either let existing Oracles use the old rules, or let them all rebuild. That's at least going to deliver consistent outcomes, not leaving a poor GM trying to figure out how the old chassis + new mystery actually works with a confused and probably angry player who may not have even realized any of this is going on.
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Hi,
I have a clarification request about the Tactician's Helm from Treasure Vault: Does this interact with Reactive Strike now (instead of Attack of Opportunity), or is it an unusable item for Remastered classes until a reprint/ remaster of Treasure Vault?
I can't point to a specific rule that says so, but its very clear the spirit of the remaster is "Reactive Strike is now the name of Attack of Opportunity". They work identically and are available in the same ways.
I really don't think the intention was to break anything that mentioned AoO and hasn't been updated yet.
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I mean it still works for characters that have AoO. I think technically it doesn't work for reactive strike.
That said, it obviously should, and I would expect almost all GMs to be sensible and allow it. (Like when Warrior Bards were technically broken at first.)
This is also technically a problem for things like Impassable Wall Stance that requires Attack of Opportunity.
Definitely good to bring up and I would strongly encourage Alex to add language about AoO/RS similar to the bard text in Character Options for Player Core.
Additionally, any bard feat which specifically mentions courageous anthem (such as Courageous Assault) also functions in the same manner with inspire courage.
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With people being granted Access to all Player Core 2 Ancestries, can people who purchased Ancestral Adoption 1 have it refunded or converted to a new benefit? Or will such a boon still be necessary to take Adopted Ancestry (Hobgoblin/Lizardfolk)?This is a great question; remind me in the Remaster Guidelines thread after Gen Con and we'll discuss it, as we hadn't considered it yet.
Reposting as requested. I guess this also applies to anyone who had used the boon to take Adopted Ancestry (Leshy) once Player Core 1 came out.
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I mean it still works for characters that have AoO. I think technically it doesn't work for reactive strike.
That said, it obviously should, and I would expect almost all GMs to be sensible and allow it. (Like when Warrior Bards were technically broken at first.)
This is also technically a problem for things like Impassable Wall Stance that requires Attack of Opportunity.
Definitely good to bring up and I would strongly encourage Alex to add language about AoO/RS similar to the bard text in Character Options for Player Core.
Additionally, any bard feat which specifically mentions courageous anthem (such as Courageous Assault) also functions in the same manner with inspire courage.
There's the chart on new names for things in Rage of Elements, though I suppose there shouldn't be an expectation that people have that specific book on hand.
Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Given the extreme overhaul to Oracle, unseen back in November 2023, and that not rebuilding an Oracle results in a non-functioning pile of mechanics, would it be the worst thing in the world to take a moment to consider and confer within the OP team whether allowing all Oracles created before August 12 wouldn’t be a good thing?
Where would you actually stop though? The only reason why we are talking about Oracles and Alchemist is the because the community is kind of loud about it.
Like for example they completely overhauled the archetype subsystem in a way certain builds may stop working. And then there's eratta to Monk and Champion Dedications. Feats that may do things completely different from how they used to work.
It's just so convoluted and it's not even done yet.
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I must have missed something. What changed here?
Like for example they completely overhauled the archetype subsystem in a way certain builds may stop working.
Archetypes still work in general the same way. (Although I think the rules about needing 3 feats before taking a new archetype moved to general rules from being in each archetype, which is a problem for Flexible Spellcaster)
Champion dedication now gives you scaling armor proficiency, but only heavy if you already had light and medium.
Psychics that were relying on bumping unarmed to heavy armor to make use of say Imaginary Weapon (high damage melee focus spell) face significant build difficulties. (Other light/cloth casters as well)
Monk archetype Flurry now has a 1d4 round cooldown. Since Flurry never scaled it it became a problem for monk identity at levels 10+ that other martials could make significantly stronger use of flurry than a monk. So it's a sensible change for the system, but feels real bad if you had a character relying on it.
I think those are the big ones.
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Swashbuckler Dedication arguably does very little now. Not because it changed significantly, but it just grants the Panache ability and a skill. All of the benefits of having Panache moved to be constants for the Swashbuckler, so until you can take a Finisher, you get no benefit from the Panache ability in the archetype.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I must have missed something. What changed here?
Like for example they completely overhauled the archetype subsystem in a way certain builds may stop working.
Archetypes still work in general the same way. (Although I think the rules about needing 3 feats before taking a new archetype moved to general rules from being in each archetype, which is a problem for Flexible Spellcaster)
Champion dedication now gives you scaling armor proficiency, but only heavy if you already had light and medium.
Psychics that were relying on bumping unarmed to heavy armor to make use of say Imaginary Weapon (high damage melee focus spell) face significant build difficulties. (Other light/cloth casters as well)
Monk archetype Flurry now has a 1d4 round cooldown. Since Flurry never scaled it it became a problem for monk identity at levels 10+ that other martials could make significantly stronger use of flurry than a monk. So it's a sensible change for the system, but feels real bad if you had a character relying on it.
I think those are the big ones.
I was referring to how weapon proficiency is granted in archetypes which means Singular Expertise the mechanic is pointless.
It's something I caught but something I didn't realize the implications of until Sayre pointed it out.
And I think they overhauled how lore skills are given in archetypes which is a good thing.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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I would like to request that it be made explicitly clear that the Divine Access Oracle feat is not able to be taken by remastered Oracles.
Divine Access is now a base feature of Oracles at level 11, however a class Feat and a feature aren't the same thing. I'm sure many players will still attempt to take the feat at level 6, since the feat wasn't reprinted as a feat, so it's still technically a valid feat.
I'm not arguing the semantics here, I just want it to be clear that it doesn't work so I don't have to argue with people online that it doesn't work. Or make it explicit that it does work, either way I just don't want there to be arguments about it.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Bellevue
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I spent the last two nights rebuilding my 5th level Life Oracle and I see why they made the mandate they did. All the Oracle focus spells lost the "Cursebound" trait. Which means - if you treat republished material with the same name as errata - An Oracle using the APG curse with the errata'd focus spells, they would never engage the curse.
Net effect, I feel like, while there are differences, the character will still play the same. Quick thoughts:
- Life Oracle loses the 10HP per level and has the same 8HP per level of the other Oracles. This means my 5th level Oracle loses 10 HP.
- The trade-off (benefit for drawback) of curse management is lessened.
- Rather than the chance to get to Heal with d12s, I gained Soothe and a 1 action spell that can bump the healing up 2+ twice level. Honestly, it's pretty close to a three action d12.
- I lose the automatic divine spell (Healer's Blessing) and have to take a feat for it. But it's not Cursebound now.
I have one other Oracle to Remaster, my Battle Oracle. But I was less concerned about him honestly.
My character was old enough for a remaster. But the Oracle had a a lot of their abilities tied into the Mystery. It might not be as big a change (for a life oracle anyway) as we thought. If you're unable to rebuild, you lose out on the increase of spell casting.
Just my observations anyway.
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If it's your game, just make your ruling clear, then move on. Don't worry about how other people choose to play the game.
Cordell's a Venture Something, so I'll venture a guess that some eagle-eyed player has spotted this, had an argument with a GM, and they had to step in and settle the debate.
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I spent the last two nights rebuilding my 5th level Life Oracle and I see why they made the mandate they did. All the Oracle focus spells lost the "Cursebound" trait. Which means - if you treat republished material with the same name as errata - An Oracle using the APG curse with the errata'd focus spells, they would never engage the curse.
If you remaster the Oracle yes, but if you don't the Revelation Spells (Oracle Focus spells) class feature on the Legacy Oracle gives them all the Cursebound trait even if they aren't printed with it. So if you don't remaster they retain Cursebound. Probably. I think. Maybe.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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If it's your game, just make your ruling clear, then move on. Don't worry about how other people choose to play the game.Cordell's a Venture Something, so I'll venture a guess that some eagle-eyed player has spotted this, had an argument with a GM, and they had to step in and settle the debate.
Basically this. I play almost exclusively Society play and just don't want this to cone up, especially since they already removed the Visions of Weakness feat in the guidelines. It wouldn't be had to add something like:
"Remastered Oracles can not take the Divine Access class feat."
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Hey, I'm a kobold Swashbuckler. If I remaster, will I have to change my kobold breath to one of the new dragons? The kobold breath feat has not been reprinted, so I'm wondering if I can still retain my bronze dragon breath weapon or if I would need to change it to one of the newer dragons.
Thoughts?
Contributor
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Alex, you asked for a post-Gencon reminder of this:
With people being granted Access to all Player Core 2 Ancestries, can people who purchased Ancestral Adoption 1 have it refunded or converted to a new benefit? Or will such a boon still be necessary to take Adopted Ancestry (Hobgoblin/Lizardfolk)?This is a great question; remind me in the Remaster Guidelines thread after Gen Con and we'll discuss it, as we hadn't considered it yet.
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Bah, that's what I thought. Well, I have always envisioned Zot as being a bronze dragon (whose lore I loved) but I also kind of love the lore of Cloud Dragons (and have several other Cloud Dragon-related characters) so I can make that shift without losing too much of Zot's identity. Still, I admit that this one thing had me hesitating to remaster, despite all the inherent benefits.