| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The comment has been made that casters can do everything:
Since a wizard very much can have a spell for every situation that targets every possible defense, the game has to assume they do
I don't want to rehash that discussion in another thread. But I would like to pose the question what is the most flexible martial you can build?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So my suggestion is a Fighter.
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 14
Basic equipment: Full Plate, Bastard Sword so you have a hand free for Athletics manevers grapple (targets Fortitude), trip (targets Reflex) and shove (forced movement), battle medicine (healing), alchemical items (such as bombs with spash effects to trigger weaknesses, backup healing, utilities like skill and sensory improvements).
You can just go two handed for the extra damage when that's what is needed.
Carry a backup Shield so you can go more defensive if desired.
Carry a bow for a ranged option,
Class Feats: Swipe and later Whirlwind Strike so that you have an option to deal with multiple enemies. Note also Dazzling Display.
Archetype Feats:
Marshal Dedication then Dread Marshal Stance (and/or Inspiring Marshal Stance when you can find the skill ranks) - Snap Out of It! to give allies an extra save, To Battle!
To give them an extra move or attack.
Archer then Assisting Shot, Point-Blank Shot - to improve your ranged attack options
Skills: Athletics, Medicine, Intimidation
Skill Feats: Battle Medicine for combat healing, Continual Recovery for out of combat healing, Titan Wrestler to allow for more Athletics, Intimidating Glare to get around the language problem.
Ancestry Feats: Cooperative Nature or similar to help with Aid
So by level 10 you can have everything in italics even without playing with the free archetype than most people do. This build is about breadth, you obviously could improve any feature here by investing in it more. But this build is actually reasonable at all of these.
This is a build that has strong attacks against AC in both melee and ranged. Can target Fortitude and Reflex defenses with Athletics. Can target Will with Intimidation. Can buff allies with Aid and the Marshall stance. Can debuff enemies with prone, grabbed and frightened. Can heal allies. Can generate forced movement with Shove. Can give allies extra movement and attacks via To Battle. Is good against hordes with Swipe.
This is just with mundane items. Alchemical items can add a lot more and they don't have to be expensive. If you just want to trigger weaknesses splash damage and weapon sheens are good enough. Then you can get into magical items and the world is your oyster.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like Thaumaturge with Champion dedication comes close to most versatile. Definitely take tome for skills and wand or lantern for extra magic or exploration respectively. Champion can cover healing, party defenses and offers attack of opportunity. It also gives enough heavy armor proficiency for early levels. Thaumaturge will need to invest in scroll feats to keep up on actual magic. I think that touches on competence in just about everything but they're not gonna be the best at anything except knowledge checks.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a build that has strong attacks against AC in both melee and ranged. Can target Fortitude and Reflex defenses with Athletics. Can target Will with Intimidation. Can buff allies with Aid and the Marshall stance. Can debuff enemies with prone, grabbed and frightened. Can heal allies. Can generate forced movement with Shove. Can give allies extra movement and attacks via To...
Honestly, considering that Athletics and Intimidation "target Fortitude, Reflex and Will" is factually true but clearly false when you consider their combat use. Targeting a save for the sake of targeting a save is useless.
Grapple is a rather weak ability as it just gives Off-Guard (which is not bad but very easy to get through Flanking). And Demoralize is just a third action.When a caster targets Will or Fortitude, it's (normally) with a rather debilitating or damaging ability, one that can end an enemy. It's not a third action everyone can build for.
Also, Marshal Dedication is awful at buffing considering the extremely small range. You have at least half of the party outside its radius.
Anyway, I'd definitely not use a Fighter for versatility. It's one of the less versatile class in the game. Thaumaturge seems a much better choice if you want to do so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And if you are allowing archetypes, just pick up a caster archetype and start using spells to target saves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I... actually like this idea more than I care to admit. But I've also got so little time today to take a crack at this. I would say that "everything" is obviously a big ask - even for a spellcaster, but I would note a few things that this hypothetical omnipotent martial should strive for.
1. The ability to deal with flying enemies: either through ranged attacks, the ability to gain flight, or by stopping an enemy from flying. (I think this "becomes an issue" around level 7 for most parties)
2. Heal.
3. Buff and debuff: bonus points if you can get circumstance and status bonuses/penalties.
4. Can deal with inivisibilty: efficent Seeking, negating concealment, generally being able to handle the unseen (like flight, I believe this becomes "a thing" around level 4 or so, but I want to say it doesn't become truly "you NEED to have this ready to go" until... like, 11 or so?)
5. Access to Recall Knowledge in some form: I might be in the minority, but I don't see very many combats that ignore RK - if we want to do everything, this should definitely be on the list
I'm sure there's more we could say needs to be thrown into the kitchen sink of the everything martial, but I know that when I play a caster, I tend to pick spells around these sorts of holes in the party comp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When a caster targets Will or Fortitude, it's (normally) with a rather debilitating or damaging ability, one that can end an enemy. It's not a third action everyone can build for.
Yeah, I am thinking we need better ground rules for this particular build challenge.
There is a big difference between targeting Will with Demoralize and targeting Will with Synesthesia, Phantom Pain, or Invoke Spirits.
And if the best way to meet the challenge requirements is to pick up a MCD spellcasting class to start throwing around spells, that seems to be defeating the purpose. I would also give Thaumaturge a good look with their in-class ability to use scrolls and grabbing a Wand Implement. That also doesn't seem to be 'martial'.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty difficult to be prepared for anything, to be able to do everything. Especially if you take out magic. When I build a character I try to tick as many boxes as I can off of my own checklist;
Damage - different damage types (fire, cold, electric, acid, sonic, piercing, bludgeoning, slashing, vitality, void, mental, force, sanctified, earth, water, poison), long range, area damage, save targets (reflex, will, fort), ghost touch,
Defense - resistance (as many as you can get), high Ac, shield block, high saves, temp hp, miss chance,
Movement - high move speed, climbing, swimming, burrowing, flying, teleportation, ethereal,
Healing - hp, poison, disease, curse, deafness, blindness, drained, enfeebled, clumsy, stupified, doomed,
Sustainability - food, water, air, environmental protections, shelter, old age,
Senses - darkvision, see invisibility, see ethereal plane, any kind of heightened senses, high perception,
And then there's (imo) silly stuff like monsters you need a ninth level dispel magic or a vorpal weapon to kill but those types are so specific that I feel it's on the gm to make sure the party has those tools. Another thing to consider is getting as many buffs and debuffs available as you can, spread through status, circumstance, and item bonuses.
So with all that said, some of the better options to cover a lot of those bases without just being a straight caster;
Ancestry - kobolds are great. Breath weapon to target an area, a save, and a damage type of your choice. Darkvision, possible cantrip, possible resistance, even poison damage once a day all at level one. Later on you can get flight, small selection of spells, snares, and other goodies. Huge amount of variety.
- elves getting feats for arcane or primal cantrips, ancient elf, a good chunk of feats to survive in harsh climates, and flexible skill proficiency is also strong.
- humans cause humans
- Iruxi have a lot of similarities with kobolds, with cantrip/cool spell options, movement types, and adapting to environments.
- automaton may be the most customizable but also is rare and harder to fit into some campaigns I imagine.
- lots of great versatile heritages, especially nephalim to get spells, flight, senses, etc.
Classes - if we're discounting most magic, I think inventor has a huge amount of versatility. The weapon inventor can have a bunch of options for aoe (explode, megavolt, deep freeze), damage type (modular options, offensive boost, variable core, overdrive can be fire damage), healing through searing restoration, visual fidelity for a bunch of sense coverage, and then you could have a pool of gadgets on top of that. Also just big numbers to damage (unlike Alchemist)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The monk would probably be the best martial for doing a little bit of everything.
you want a short-length teleport combined with an "ignore the first hit on you" defense, at level 1? Mirror has thatHow does the Mirror implement provide a "ignore the first hit on you" defense?
I could see a couple of ways of mis-reading the Adept Benefit ability such that it does that.
But it doesn't.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, considering that Athletics and Intimidation "target Fortitude, Reflex and Will" is factually true but clearly false when you consider their combat use. Targeting a save for the sake of targeting a save is useless.
Grapple is a rather weak ability as it just gives Off-Guard (which is not bad but very easy to get through Flanking). And Demoralize is just a third action.When a caster targets Will or Fortitude, it's (normally) with a rather debilitating or damaging ability, one that can end an enemy. It's not a third action everyone can build for.
I think you are being overly harsh. A primal caster for example doesn't have much against will if you take that approach.
But I take issue here with you calling grapple weak as well. It is not just off guard. It stops movement. The critical effect is restrained which is a serious debuff. No you can't just ignore the critical effect as improbable as we are talking about targeting the weakest defence and the DC you can get to are very impressive. Master at level 7.
Also, Marshal Dedication is awful at buffing considering the extremely small range. You have at least half of the party outside its radius.
I'm not arguing that the are better effects out there. Not the point as there are always other options.
Anyway, I'd definitely not use a Fighter for versatility. It's one of the less versatile class in the game. Thaumaturge seems a much better choice if you want to do so.
I like the fighter as it has the most space. But yep I see the Thaumaturge and Inventor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everything Fighter
Isn't the bow too far behind by level 10? Seems like it would be hard to have striking runes for it. I'm skeptical of Medicine with 10 wisdom and no assurance, too. Swipe fails to cover true AOE and swarms/troops but that's a relatively minor issue.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know about everything, but I play an Outwit Ranger that I absolutely adore. I was playing a fighter previously, but after the Ranger, never going back. Good intelligence and wisdom with Trick Magic Item, Monster Hunter for Recall Knowledge, Quick Draw helps to swap between ranged and melee (using a bastard sword and composite bow), Talismans and other consumables as needed; the funnest and most complete character I've played that wasn't a Bard (which I always end up playing specifically due to versatility).
Everything FighterIsn't the bow too far behind by level 10? Seems like it would be hard to have striking runes for it. I'm skeptical of Medicine with 10 wisdom and no assurance, too. Swipe fails to cover true AOE and swarms/troops but that's a relatively minor issue.
The bow ṭo hit number is still better at level 10 than a dedicated Ranger.
Medicine is not something that needs a big investment. Just accept the lower DC. Out of combat simply takes a bit longer. In combat the healing gloves help. If is not a strong ability, but it is still very useful. You have a free hand. It is one action. It is very good value just taking someone from down to up. Every pc with a free hand should be doing it as soon as their build allows.
Swarms can be dealt with with level 1 bombs triggering this weakness.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you count Alchemist as a Martial Class, which I don't think is quite right, and you assume they saved about 30% of their budget to sink into a ton of Formulas to expand their book and stock up on various Alchemical Items as they do along I think they would almost certainly fit the bill for this challenge.
Sure, their to-hit isn't really good or great, their damage isn't good or great, their saves and AC aren't stellar but in terms of asking the question "what can you make that can, in a moment, come up with a workable or ideal solution to the highest number of problems imaginable" I can't think of anything that would do anywhere near as well as an Alch in the hands of someone hows how to build and use them.
Alchemist can do a lot. Do they count as a martial?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I prefer to split them into 3 groups:
Martials:
Barbarian
Champion
Exemplar
Gunslinger
Inventor
Investigator
Monk
Ranger
Rogue
Swashbuckler
Thaumaturge
Casters:
Animist
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Oracle
Psychic
Sorcerer
Witch
Wizard
Grey area:
Alchemist
Kineticist
Magus
Summoner
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Barbarian with multiclassed kineticist archetype? It's not quite SAD, but a barbarian will often prioritize Str and Con anyway. Almost all of the kineticist feats lack the concentrate trait, so they can be used when raging; the kineticist also gives the barbarian ranged and area options, as well as other effects that would normally require spellcasting.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The martial I like that can do a lot.
Monk: Make the monk a Dex focus focusing stats on Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.
You can get Master level proficiency in Occult or Divine spells as part of the class chassis.
1: Ki Strike
2: Monastic Archer Stance (Since this is focused on multiple abilities)
4: Flurry of Maneuvers (Greater efficiency with Athletics)
6: Ki Blast for AoE damage.
8: Wild Winds Stance
10: Basic Spellcasting Cleric
12: Expert Spellcasting
14: Wild Winds Gust (More AoE)
16: Caster's Breadth: More spellcasting. Pick up fear to target will saves or another will save spell
18: Ki Form: flight and more damage.
20: Golden Body: Self healing
Human race
9 Ancestry: Multitalented: Cleric Archetype
13: Adapted Cantrip: Electric Arc
Focus Skill ups: Athletics, Acrobatics, Religion (enough to get expert casting)
You can operate at ranged, melee, do maneuvers, heal, buff, do consistent AoE damage, attack will saves with a fear spell or another will spell, electric arc for reflex save or use maneuvers.
You also get insane movement, excellent defenses, and all around saves. With the casting proficiency built in as part of the class, synergizes well with the casting archetype.
Monk is an all around type of martial. You can build them a lot of different ways.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alchemist is a martial. It is just a really bad martial. Literally all martials except maybe fighter have more magic than Alchemist.
Alchemist is a super strange class. They always feel useful, but they don't do anything particularly well. But they almost always have the ability to activate a weakness. They do damage even on a miss. Their buffs are useful. They almost always have something useful to do. Most of their stuff takes one action. But they don't feel powerful, just useful.
Alchemist is a martial. It is just a really bad martial. Literally all martials except maybe fighter have more magic than Alchemist.Alchemist is a super strange class. They always feel useful, but they don't do anything particularly well. But they almost always have the ability to activate a weakness. They do damage even on a miss. Their buffs are useful. They almost always have something useful to do. Most of their stuff takes one action. But they don't feel powerful, just useful.
Alchemist is the best Nth+1 party member in that, as you approach N, you start to think that an Alchemist might be the best pick for that slot. However, in the end, you always end up with a party lacking the Alchemist and thinking that you could fit one in if you just had one more slot.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alchemist is a martial. It is just a really bad martial.
My Mutagenist strongly disagrees. Since Treasure Vault, I find the weapon Mutagenist to be really a bliss to play. It's quite simple (just get large and hit things) but then you have all the Alchemist's stuff (Poison for buff, Elixirs for healing) making the character a bit more than just a big hitter.
On the other hand, I have hard time considering my Chirurgeon a martial. I agree with Gortle when he puts the Alchemist in the grey area.But I take issue here with you calling grapple weak as well. It is not just off guard. It stops movement. The critical effect is restrained which is a serious debuff. No you can't just ignore the critical effect as improbable as we are talking about targeting the weakest defence and the DC you can get to are very impressive. Master at level 7.
But it also increases MAP and has a nasty critical failure effect, so if you care at least a bit about efficiency you don't use Grapple just because you face a low Fortitude enemy.
As I said: If the point is to target saves for the sake of targeting saves, then Grapple's fine. But if you want to really switch between defenses to get the most out of your character then Grapple is not usable as is, you need some class feat support to get something competitive against just bashing stupidly.I think you are being overly harsh. A primal caster for example doesn't have much against will if you take that approach.
I agree. But at the same time the Druid has something. For example, if you face enemies with extremely low Will saves, Fear 3 should end the fight. On the other hand, your Fighter can only Demoralize them, which asks for an action per enemy (if they are many it can take multiple rounds) and they won't flee unless they are lower level than you (if they are not that many they certainly won't be affected by Terrified Retreat). The net gain compared to just striking stupidly is not stellar.
But I agree that "do everything" is open to interpretation, that's just my point of view. I personally don't consider Grapple nor Demoralize to be enough for Fortitude and Will targeting, but I do consider Trip to be enough for Reflex targeting as Trip net value is excellent if you face a low Reflex enemy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the point is to target saves for the sake of targeting saves, then Grapple's fine. But if you want to really switch between defenses to get the most out of your character then Grapple is not usable as is, you need some class feat support to get something competitive against just bashing stupidly.
Grapple exerts a fair amount of control over a target, gives a failure chance to mainpulate actions, stops movement. These are significant.
It also lowers defenses by 2 for everyone not just melee characters.As an action by itself considering one character it is marginal at best. So many people discount it. But that is not the point. You are part of a party, when you have multiple people attacking it it is often very good.
Yes there are enemies it is not a good idea with and party compositions it doesn't make sense for. But that is true of any one tactic.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
...Does it have magic? No. Does it have focus spells? No. Both of those are no so its a martial.
Does it get Master proficiency for weapons? No. So it can't really be called a martial either.
The Alchemist is an oddball. Stating that because it doesn't cast spells it has to be a martial is a syllogism.When I said its the worst martial you know exactly what I mean. That class has had like 3-6 errata completely changing it and it still doesn't feel good.
The class had tons of issues, and it still has. But I must admit with the right level of system mastery (a lot of system mastery actually) it does feel good now. With Treasure Vault, you can do nice things with an Alchemist (and there's no more one single build that works).
But that is true of any one tactic.
Grapple is not really dependent on enemy saves, that's why I think it's not really a good example of "targeting Fortitude".
Grapple is strong against higher level casters and archers (preferably if you have AoO) or to prevent someone from escaping (including party members). It's extremely niche. If you face a low Fortitude enemy outside these situations, grappling it has close to no impact while giving away your main attack and as such most of your damage. So it's a bad strategy in more than 90% of the cases and the enemy Fortitude save is not the deciding factor. It's a nice thing to have for the moment where it shines but it's not a way to reliably target Fortitude.Trip, on the other hand, has most of the drawbacks of Grapple but the effects are now worth the cost and it's very far from niche. Tripping is a reliable way to target Reflex saves.
Trip, on the other hand, has most of the drawbacks of Grapple but the effects are now worth the cost and it's very far from niche. Tripping is a reliable way to target Reflex saves.
You are missing the point. The whole deal with being able to attack multiple defenses is to use the right one against the right opponent. Many creatures have a very good reflex save, you need options.
If you have optimised your trip routine to the extent that you aren't grappling much at all, then you aren't using a reasonable section of the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are missing the point. The whole deal with being able to attack multiple defenses is to use the right one against the right opponent.
I fully agree and understood that. It's just that Grapple is weak against most enemies and as such is not "the right defense to attack against the right opponent".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which, I suppose also makes spellcasters martials then?
If your definition of a martial is "no magic, no focus spells" then we're getting into some "Behold! A man!" wackiness.
Sorry ranger, monk - you have had your martial status revoked.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kineticist is definitely a caster of a kind, it just uses a different mechanical system to express their magic.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Casters are defined by having spell slots, which is why Kineticist is not a caster.
You got that definition from the Cambridge dictionary?
There is no official definition of a caster or a martial. There are classes that you easily put in one category or the other (Wizard and Fighter) but there are a bunch of oddballs that Gortle has put legitimately in the grey area category as they are neither martials nor casters or are both martials and casters.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which, I suppose also makes spellcasters martials then?
If your definition of a martial is "no magic, no focus spells" then we're getting into some "Behold! A man!" wackiness.
Sorry ranger, monk - you have had your martial status revoked.
...
Now that's a strawman. I said those martials have magic and the alchemist has less magic than them. If all those martials can do actual magic and be "martials", then alchemist who has less magic is definetly a martial.Casters are defined by having spell slots, which is why Kineticist is not a caster.
Not a spell-slot caster does not automatically makes a class a martial.
As much as I love Alchemists (and I do), I don't think they're well positioned in this challenge.
Alchemists, like most martials, focus on targeting AC. You can certainly build an Alchemist around Intimidation; my Mutagenist is quite good there, for example. But other than that, there isn't much in the Class that targets Will. A couple of poisons, one of which is an Injury poison meaning that you need to target AC first.
Reflex is similarly lacking. The Blindpepper Bomb is the only Bomb that targets Reflex instead of AC until the Mega Bomb feat become available at 20th level. There are a few tools that can target Reflex saves (Violet Colorful Coating comes to mind) but they can be awkward to use.
The vast majority of poisons will target Fortitude Saves.
Still, outside the realm of targeting defenses, the Alchemist does quite well on the versatility front. It's quite rare to encounter a situation where an Alchemist can't do anything, at least during the last 3/4 of the game. (Mutagenists can often have enough spare reagents for Alchemical rabbits from L1.)
I dunno the martial created here looks like it will be pretty bad at several things
I dunno the martial created here looks like it will be pretty bad at several things
Then improve it or make another suggestion.