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Generally speaking it is the best list, but is missing 2 of the strongest spells available to casters, Heal and Synesthesia. Besides that, they have it all.
That's why I have Arcane Sorcerers in such high regards. Crossbloded Evolution makes it undoubtly the best list available to PCs.
As for feeling Wizardly or Arcane-y, I guess? You have all the stapples you would asociate with Wizards and the like.
As if it is fun or not to use, yeah, absolutely. Being able to mix big AoE blast for encounters vs many enemies and strong debuffs and control for fewer, stronger enemy type encounters feels good. The utility type spells feel also nice, list has a really good selection.
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Using raw number of spells in no way shows what each list can do.
It is obvious the Occult List is the best list with the most useful spells on it. Anyone that has played this game for any length of time combing each list knows Occult is currently the most diverse spell list in terms of what it can do.
Divine is the least versatile list.
Arcane and Primal are in the middle. I prefer primal over Arcane because primal casters give you blasting, healing, and condition removal as well as more versatile summons and battle forms. But some people like arcane for the illusions and utility spells.
Arcane list has a bunch of fluff spells that do next to nothing on it or are for pure roleplay purposes.
In my opinion, level 10 Arcane spells are either shared by other lists or aren't very interesting comparatively to Occult and Primal level 10 spells.
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The Arcane list is too wide IMO. Trying to do too many things without much regard for its identity of Material + Mental. So I am not surprised that it has both the greatest number of spells (by very far) and the smallest number of exclusive spells (also by far).
I would like it to be more cleanly separated from the other Traditions. Which would also help deepen its identity in relation to its component Essences.
But I think this will not happen before PF3.
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I love the divine list, because it makes sense.
the Primal list is very true to the origins also.
Both the arcane and occult list have a bunch of headscratchers.
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Arcane is a bit of a deceptive list to me in that it has the most spells but also the most internal redundancy. The stuff it can't do stands out a lot more.
Whereas like... Occult has things it's bad at, but even then seems to have a couple spells that break those normal rules.
Arcane seems by contrast like it's held to its own rules a lot more strictly.
Trying to do too many things without much regard for its identity of Material + Mental.
TBH I feel like that applies to most lists. The essences feel a bit tacked on... though imo Primal does the best job of fitting its brief.
Whereas like... Occult has things it's bad at, but even then seems to have a couple spells that break those normal rules.
Someone on Paizo really loves the Occult list looks like. List was supposed to be bad at blasting and specially at reflex saves and here we are in a world where stuff like Inner Radiance Torrent (subject to errata, I know) Rouse Skeletons and Telekinetic Bombardment exist. Now they even got Phantom Orchestra, which is a nutty damaging spell too.
Overall I still think that Arcane is the best one for the average player, though. It is easier to find yourself with a disfunctional spell array with an occult caster than with an arcane one IMO. Like, with Arcane you just need to know that single target Incap spells are bad, that you are supposed to target all 3 saves and you are already ready to go. Occult, on top of that, is completely overloaded with mental spells and you really need to know where to look to overcome its shortcomings.
If you know what you are doing yes, Occult has the highest highs.
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I remember mark talking about how a lot of spells don't belong on the arcane list, but people kept adding spells that didn't really belong on it, because they wanted the wizard to have it.
Primal has cool level 10 spells too. Turn into Godzilla or a huge elemental or summon a bunch of dinosaurs is good fun.
Unlike Arcane, It is hard to "fix" Divine with just 3 extra spells.
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Arcane is the widest list, but it also has the most filler spells.
Divine has the fewest spells, but its also the most focused for better or worse.
Occult has the most useful spells, and the best focus spells.
Primal has the most unique spell, and the second most versatile behind occult.
*************
All the "essences" thing is BS that I think both distracts and hinders what the spell lists can do.
The issue with Arcane is not that its too wide or "does not fit the essences". Its that too many of the spells that were good in it have been removed, restricted, or given to other casters. Then filled with well filler.
The issue with Divine is not that its too shallow. Its that it was saddled with a rule that should never have been in the game to begin with: Alignment should had always dealt full damage and you deal more/less damage based on weakness/resistance like every other damage type.
Primal is okay actually. Their biggest issue is the whole spell attack and polymorph thing.
The issue with Occult is that it steals most of what was good about Arcane, and then gets rid of all the bad parts. Not to mention that the occult classes straight up get better focus spells on average than everyone else. I swear the devs are biased towards making Bards and Occult spell list better because its just not natural: Occult really should be in the position Divine is currently in, but with weird and strange spells instead of "this is the healing list".
the designers followed the essences for divine and primal,
and just threw them out the windows for arcane and occult.
Unlike Arcane, It is hard to "fix" Divine with just 3 extra spells.
the divine list is awesome. it does exactly what you think it should. it's like hating on a shotgun because it can't kill someone at over 300 yards.
I wouldn't say it is the only issue but it trully is the biggest change the list needed. I feel I will have little complaints with the list after the remaster.
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A lot of the non-unique spells are spells that are just arcane and one other list so just the flat numbers doesn't really show the full thing
a thing about arcane and occult spell lists that I feel is what has caused some of the identity problem there is an amount of spells that are just on there because wizard/bard should have it more than it feeling like it fits the identity
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Arcane can target all the saves. It also lets me summon dragons or turn into one; those are large pluses to me
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The pro-bard sentiment of the forums and the design team must be crushed. DOWN WITH BARDS
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My own impression is that Arcane (and wizard) got shackled by the original DnD version of arcane and Wizard. But back then there were only two kinds of magic, Arcane and Divine.
Now what is the Arcane Magic, what should be there Theme and Essence?
In my opinion it should have control and raw magic as Theme + artificial creations. Magic as Science, Method and applied craft.
With Occult being in theory the Area of Weird and Psychic things one should try to seperate there Area strongly from Arcane to give them both unique idendities.
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My own impression is that Arcane (and wizard) got shackled by the original DnD version of arcane and Wizard. But back then there were only two kinds of magic, Arcane and Divine.
Now what is the Arcane Magic, what should be there Theme and Essence?
In my opinion it should have control and raw magic as Theme + artificial creations. Magic as Science, Method and applied craft.With Occult being in theory the Area of Weird and Psychic things one should try to seperate there Area strongly from Arcane to give them both unique idendities.
The one point Temperans is correct about is that how occult magic is defined in this game is the literal definition of arcane in the real world. Separating occult from arcane was probably not a fantastic idea to begin with. Now that we have it, it's clear mental+matter as a baseline should just be a whole hell of a lot more versatile than anything else. Mental+spirit is a pretty limiting category, and most especially spirit and life. Only thing close is maybe life and matter, but you'd expect it to be only half as versatile
We also run into an issue where people think "occult" means "spooky" and "Eldritch" when it is only sometimes that and most of the time means you read too many Carl Jung books, listened to too much Tool and your favorite podcast is Joe Rogan cuz he talked about DMT, man
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The essence issue is awkward because I feel like the list lost things in order to "be more true" to its essence, but is also still hung up on what the Wizard in PF1 was supposed to be.
... like it's a little bit goofy that the 'matter' essence that specifically deals with manipulate physical essences cannot heal a cut... even though it explicitly has dominion over shapechanging, flesh altering magic.
It 'makes sense' because wizards are supposed to be pretty good at polymorphing but pretty bad at healing.
Some of this they did write into descriptions... like how 'Mind' only partially governs creative and emotional energy but instead co-governs it with Spirit. This is... a little bit weird descriptively but fits in the lore to make sure Bards are the best at altering emotional states. At least it is written into the lore though.
Except even that's not entirely right, because instinctual or deep seated emotional reactions are specifically associated with the Life essence instead. Irrational impulses are specifically called out as being a part of Life This is probably why Fear is on all four lists, I guess.
But that logic is also kind of weird because if that's the case, you'd expect Druids and Clerics to be better at manipulating base emotions... but they aren't. They're the worst at it. Divine better than Primal, but they lag way behind Arcane and Occult despite Spirit and Life both being called out as part of this relationship.
It makes sense... because it's not something normally associates with Clerics and Druids.
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Here is my breakdown of the relative strengths of the lists
I prefer if the tradition boundaries were firmly set, and that arcane casters had a better defined niche. Anything because it is magic, is far too loose.
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My point stands. Essences are a distraction and a hinderance. Its easy to describe Divine and Primal because those are just healing and nature. But Arcane and Occult are literal synonyms (a concern that was raised in the playtest).the designers followed the essences for divine and primal,
and just threw them out the windows for arcane and occult.
But that's not what happened. Mark said what happened. The arcane list was very much {mind and material} when it started, but people kept adding spells that didn't fit because they wanted the wizard to have those specific spells. That's not a failure of the essences, that a failure of the designers not adhering to their mandate.
Here is my breakdown of the relative strengths of the lists
I prefer if the tradition boundaries were firmly set, and that arcane casters had a better defined niche. Anything because it is magic, is far too loose.
Only thing I disagree with is I consider the Occult list the best, not the Arcane. At least when I read the spell ratings, you can see how strong the Occult list by the number of high impact blue spells across the list.
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Only thing I disagree with is I consider the Occult list the best, not the Arcane. At least when I read the spell ratings, you can see how strong the Occult list by the number of high impact blue spells across the list.
Some of the Occult spells are the best. They probably did give them too much. But I still like the area effect spells of the Arcane list more.
I feel Synesthesia on its own is what makes people drool over the Occult list.
And now I want to play a Cleric of Narriseminek.
Or an Oracle of Lore.
Synesthesia is nice, but any sorcerer including Arcane can take it.
What makes the occult list good is the number of high impact spells all on one list:
True Strike
Heroism
Soothe (healing)
Restoration (condition removal without counteract)
Heroism (great buff)
Invisibility
Phantasmal killer
Magic Missile
Wall of Force
Summon Fey (one of the better utility, support summon spells)
Disappearance
Mind Blank
Phantasmal Calamity
Shadow Siphon
Slow
Haste
Weird
The number of useful, high impact spells on the occult list makes it so you don't really need another list to do a little of almost everything.
Main thing lacking on the occult list is energy blast spells and battle forms.
It's a very good overall list even without synesthesia.
A lot of the non-unique spells are spells that are just arcane and one other list so just the flat numbers doesn't really show the full thing
a thing about arcane and occult spell lists that I feel is what has caused some of the identity problem there is an amount of spells that are just on there because wizard/bard should have it more than it feeling like it fits the identity
Yeah. Arcane has the most solutions to the most problems, IMO, because it dips into so many other lists.
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I feel Synesthesia on its own is what makes people drool over the Occult list.
And now I want to play a Cleric of Narriseminek.
Or an Oracle of Lore.
Synesthesia is nice, but any sorcerer including Arcane can take it.
What makes the occult list good is the number of high impact spells all on one list:
True Strike
Heroism
Soothe (healing)
Restoration (condition removal without counteract)
Heroism (great buff)
Invisibility
Phantasmal killer
Magic Missile
Wall of Force
Summon Fey (one of the better utility, support summon spells)
Disappearance
Mind Blank
Phantasmal Calamity
Shadow Siphon
Slow
Haste
WeirdThe number of useful, high impact spells on the occult list makes it so you don't really need another list to do a little of almost everything.
Main thing lacking on the occult list is energy blast spells and battle forms.
It's a very good overall list even without synesthesia.
So idk if it's controversial, but I think slow, haste, wall of force, magic missile and maybe even summon fey should *not* be on the occult list. These all feel like "matter" spells
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So idk if it's controversial, but I think slow, haste, wall of force, magic missile and maybe even summon fey should *not* be on the occult list. These all feel like "matter" spells
I'd be all for better boundaries beteer the lists. Something like 95% of the new primal spells in Rage of Elements where also Arcane.
I don't mind Slow and Haste effects being on 3 lists. But I'd prefer if the spells had different traits and flavour.
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I feel Synesthesia on its own is what makes people drool over the Occult list.
And now I want to play a Cleric of Narriseminek.
Or an Oracle of Lore.
Synesthesia is nice, but any sorcerer including Arcane can take it.
What makes the occult list good is the number of high impact spells all on one list:
True Strike
Heroism
Soothe (healing)
Restoration (condition removal without counteract)
Heroism (great buff)
Invisibility
Phantasmal killer
Magic Missile
Wall of Force
Summon Fey (one of the better utility, support summon spells)
Disappearance
Mind Blank
Phantasmal Calamity
Shadow Siphon
Slow
Haste
WeirdThe number of useful, high impact spells on the occult list makes it so you don't really need another list to do a little of almost everything.
Main thing lacking on the occult list is energy blast spells and battle forms.
It's a very good overall list even without synesthesia.
Most of those are Arcane too.
The only big one Arcane loses in comparison to Occult is Synesthesia. Heroism is rather important too, but, at least in the tables I've played, status bonus to hit are fairly popular, so it is not that notable until rank 6. Soothe is also a somewhat important loss too, but it is far from being a top spell. Restoration is super niche, so I wouldn't count it tbh.
Arcane gets in exchange all the good blasty spells that target reflex. Fireball, Cone of Cold and Chain Lightning are worth a lot, I would say.
Between SoM and DA Occult got some spells that it shouldn't have gotten that pushed it a bit too far, but as I said earlier, I think it is something that only someone that is willing to optimize their spell repertoire quite a bit and knows the list in depth will be able to take advantage of. For the average player, Arcane is easier and achieves similar results, and thus is better (among the new or less tactic-inclined players I've helped through the years, I've seen way more struggle with the Occult list than the Arcane list).
So idk if it's controversial, but I think slow, haste, wall of force, magic missile and maybe even summon fey should *not* be on the occult list. These all feel like "matter" spells
I personally think the issue is that this is a compromise between mechanics and flavor. Curated lists like we had in 1E were great flavor wise, but they were also a pain to deal with as a new player (most likely also for the devs) and led to lots of imbalances. The 4 lists are better from a balance perspective (not perfect, but indeed better), but have to compromise a lot of thematic cohesion in the process. Psychic, Bard and Occult Witch all use the same list, but theme-wise they have very little in common. Telekinetic Bombardment makes sense for a Psychic, but it doesn't fit Witches at all IMO. On the other hand, Curses make lots of sense for Witch and little for Psychic.
I've found restoration useful for dealing with the drained condition which can be quite annoying.
Arcane needs some more unique high impact spells.
Arcane gets good blasty spells, but so does Primal along with healing, condition removal, summon fey, battle forms, and quite a few good sustain spells.
I do like level 10 primal spells probably the best of all the lists.
I'm not going to say Arcane is terrible because it is a pretty wide list. It's missing some real impact spells it used to have that if you're making a group and you want casters that can share the load, it is often better to go for Occult and Primal together for double healing lists with just about everything else you need or want.
You could try the old Divine and arcane together. You should be ok. But primal and occult do more in my opinion with players who know the high quality spells and associated classes with each list.
When you rate traditions, you also have to look at each class associated with them and what they can do on top of what the list brings to the table.
I don't think arcane is bad, but I think the holes built into the arcane list are more significant than the holes built into some other lists.
Like Occult being bad at elemental blasting and shapeshifting is less impactful than Arcane having no healing and some restrictions on their support spells, because elemental blasting and shapeshifting are fundamentally more replaceable things anyways.
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When you rate traditions, you also have to look at each class associated with them and what they can do on top of what the list brings to the table.I think it is the other way around. Talking about which ones work best makes sense when talking about classes like Sorcerer, Witch or Summoner, where the lists are competing against each other on the same chassis. As you are putting it, it is not that Occult and Primal work best together, but that Druid and Bard work best together (which I'm not saying is untrue, but it adds little to the conversation).
Like Occult being bad at elemental blasting and shapeshifting is less impactful than Arcane having no healing and some restrictions on their support spells, because elemental blasting and shapeshifting are fundamentally more replaceable things anyways.
It is less relevant because Occult weaknesses went away like 2 rulebooks ago. That list is just cheating nowadays.
I personally think the issue is that this is a compromise between mechanics and flavor. Curated lists like we had in 1E were great flavor wise, but they were also a pain to deal with as a new player (most likely also for the devs) and led to lots of imbalances. The 4 lists are better from a balance perspective (not perfect, but indeed better), but have to compromise a lot of thematic cohesion in the process. Psychic, Bard and Occult Witch all use the same list, but theme-wise they have very little in common. Telekinetic Bombardment makes sense for a Psychic, but it doesn't fit Witches at all IMO. On the other hand, Curses make lots of sense for Witch and little for Psychic.
I'm well aware, I prefer the four traditions, my point is that haste, slow, magic missile and the others I mentioned feel particularly arcane and all feel like "matter" a domain of arcane and primal, but not of occult. I know Bard had haste in 1e, and that's probably why occult has haste now, but it does feel wrong. Unless the devs have a good reason time magic should be on a list that doesn't deal with the physical, like how time works in this fantasy setting, my instinct is to think this is a matter thing. Maybe magic missile and wall of force are on here because they interact with ghosts and other incorporeal undead and this is necessary for an occult caster? It's easier to give those two a pass, but summoning feels as though it just should not be on the occult list
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I personally think the issue is that this is a compromise between mechanics and flavor. Curated lists like we had in 1E were great flavor wise, but they were also a pain to deal with as a new player (most likely also for the devs) and led to lots of imbalances. The 4 lists are better from a balance perspective (not perfect, but indeed better), but have to compromise a lot of thematic cohesion in the process. Psychic, Bard and Occult Witch all use the same list, but theme-wise they have very little in common. Telekinetic Bombardment makes sense for a Psychic, but it doesn't fit Witches at all IMO. On the other hand, Curses make lots of sense for Witch and little for Psychic.I'm well aware, I prefer the four traditions, my point is that haste, slow, magic missile and the others I mentioned feel particularly arcane and all feel like "matter" a domain of arcane and primal, but not of occult. I know Bard had haste in 1e, and that's probably why occult has haste now, but it does feel wrong. Unless the devs have a good reason time magic should be on a list that doesn't deal with the physical, like how time works in this fantasy setting, my instinct is to think this is a matter thing. Maybe magic missile and wall of force are on here because they interact with ghosts and other incorporeal undead and this is necessary for an occult caster? It's easier to give those two a pass, but summoning feels as though it just should not be on the occult list
Maybe it is just me, but I always thought time magic was one of the iconic things Bards were supposed to do well. As for force stuff, I think it is more tied to spirit magic than matter magic. Like, the remastered rules for alignment damage use force damage, Monks do force damage with their ki, force barriers block incorporeal beings...
Maybe it is just me, but I always thought time magic was one of the iconic things Bards were supposed to do well. As for force stuff, I think it is more tied to spirit magic than matter magic. Like, the remastered rules for alignment damage use force damage, Monks do force damage with their ki, force barriers block incorporeal beings...
Aren't these doing spirit damage in the remaster? The alignment specific stuff I mean. This does beg the quest as to what "force damage" is exactly?
According to the "force" tag it's "pure magical force" and there are astral plane specific spells with the trait. The astral plane is tied to arcane magic iirc
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When you rate traditions, you also have to look at each class associated with them and what they can do on top of what the list brings to the table.I think it is the other way around. Talking about which ones work best makes sense when talking about classes like Sorcerer, Witch or Summoner, where the lists are competing against each other on the same chassis. As you are putting it, it is not that Occult and Primal work best together, but that Druid and Bard work best together (which I'm not saying is untrue, but it adds little to the conversation).Like Occult being bad at elemental blasting and shapeshifting is less impactful than Arcane having no healing and some restrictions on their support spells, because elemental blasting and shapeshifting are fundamentally more replaceable things anyways.It is less relevant because Occult weaknesses went away like 2 rulebooks ago. That list is just cheating nowadays.
That is true too.
When I make a sorcerer or witch, the arcane is one of the last lists I pick because the roles for the Arcane list are so limited.
My buddy can play a Fervor witch and have more fun in that utility, healer role than maybe playing a cleric.
When playing a sorcerer, I can have more fun with a primal sorcerer as healer because I can blast and heal and do other stuff.
If you make an arcane tradition caster, you're pretty much locked into utility damage dealer. No healing. No real unique buffs. You have this very limited role and ability to impact the group. Since blasting, especially single target, can be underwhelming, I found that the arcane tradition doesn't feel like it can impact the battle as well as other casters who can switch to healing or maybe use a battle form effectively or do other things between blasts.
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So I've been thinking about the Arcane tradition. And I'm wondering, as an open-ended question, what people think. Have you played it? Do you like it? Does it make thematic sense? Does it provide enough variety? I just ran an analysis that got me thinking about it...
Total count of spells by list (excluding focus spells and cantrips):
Arcane: 615
Divine: 321
Occult: 497
Primal: 460Total count of UNIQUE spells by list (that is, spells on a list not shared with any other):
Arcane: 19
Divine: 37
Occult: 39
Primal: 65I'm interested in both fluff and mechanical reflections.
And let me be very clear. This thread is not the place to complain about wizards in PF 2E . We have plenty of those elsewhere. Half of them are locked. PLEASE DO NOT DO IT HERE.
I have played an Arcane Spellcaster from 1 to 20 and finished the Age of Ashes AP (with the final fight being relatively easy compared to a couple other fights before it), and this spanned from the game's first release to basically the publication of Secrets of Magic. Take a guess as to which class that is. Remember, we made it back when there was only the first Core Rulebook publishing.
To be completely honest, I find the Arcane list, even if it is plentiful in number and possessing staple spells, to be relatively bland and have a bunch of redundant/filler spells mixed in with it. As I always say, quantity is nothing, quality is everything. Why give me hundreds of spells that I will either never use or never learn, compared to one spell that I can use on a regular basis to the point that it's a list-defining option?
Yes, it has some useful spells and cantrips, my complaint isn't necessarily that the list has bad spells; Haste/Slow is awesome, being able to Teleport was useful, tossing around a Polar Ray was solid single-target damage with some slight debuffing. But it's not like other spell lists can't take them or use them for themselves. You want some buffs and blasting? Just go Primal if you want that instead. They also get Heal, probably the single best spell in the game, meaning you have better combat versatility than a Wizard while also having a lot of crucial support from the Divine list. (You can also kill Undead, a very common enemy type, much more efficiently with this list, given that you can cast spells like Heal and Searing Light, whereas Arcane gets things like Grim Tendrils and Vampiric Touch. Oof.)
But if you want less of a combat approach and more of a utility option, just go Occult instead. You get the other half of the Arcane blasty bits (that aren't elemental, anyway), which are just as good if not better than the Primal blasty bits, and still get most every other utility option from Arcane as well. Plus, you get a few unique spells that no other list can replicate, which provide unrivaled and powerful benefits to your group.
Compared to these two lists, there isn't much that Arcane offers that these two lists can't already cover. Heck, even Divine has more to offer compared to these two, such as the Harm spell, a staple for Warpriests and Undead entities.
Also, as you also point out, there are very few unique Arcane spells, of which is mostly the restricted Summon/Incarnate spells and maybe a few others that aren't of note. Primal does have a large amount of these as well, but given that they also have the most amount of unique spells in the game, and aren't that far behind the Occult list by nature of being able to do a large amount of the things Occult can (just in a different way), it's mostly behind by the number of uniquely strong things Occult can do, as well as some of the universal utility that Occult poached from Arcane. Really, I'd sooner play a Primal caster than an Arcane one if we're talking strictly from a combat perspective. And I'd rather play an Occult caster than either of these two, since it has the best of both worlds with acceptable drawbacks.
That is true too.
When I make a sorcerer or witch, the arcane is one of the last lists I pick because the roles for the Arcane list are so limited.
My buddy can play a Fervor witch and have more fun in that utility, healer role than maybe playing a cleric.
When playing a sorcerer, I can have more fun with a primal sorcerer as healer because I can blast and heal and do other stuff.
If you make an arcane tradition caster, you're pretty much locked into utility damage dealer. No healing. No real unique buffs. You have this very limited role and ability to impact the group. Since blasting, especially single target, can be underwhelming, I found that the arcane tradition doesn't feel like it can impact the battle as well as other casters who can switch to healing or maybe use a battle form effectively or do other things between blasts.
I think you underestimate a lot the ability to do both good blasting and good debuffing on a single character. Primal is really good at making HP numbers go up and down, but has some issues with buff and debuffing (it also has a slighly harder time targetting Will saves with impactful effects, at least to the degree Occult and Arcane can). As an arcane caster, if damage is not going to work for whatever reason, you still have an excellent math-swinging game.
Take primal and exchange the ability to use restorative spells for the ability to cast stuff like True Strike, Hideous Laughter/Roaring Applause, Phantasmal Killer or Maze.
If you don't like Arcane that much, I advise you to give the list another try playing an Imperial Sorcerer. Make sure to grab a good focus spell early on (Extend Spell and Arcane Countermeasures, as good as they may be, are quite niche, so having something like Psychic Dedication for Guidance is great). Get the Spellbook feat and Crossblooded for either Heal or Synesthesia. Swashbuckler for One for All is also neat. I assure you you will have a good time.
As for the Witch example, Fervor is completely being carried by Stoke the Heart, so it is not like Divine is particularly popping off there for whatever reason.
Aren't these doing spirit damage in the remaster?
Spirit damage is force damage when you are not holy or unholy.
That is true too.
When I make a sorcerer or witch, the arcane is one of the last lists I pick because the roles for the Arcane list are so limited.
My buddy can play a Fervor witch and have more fun in that utility, healer role than maybe playing a cleric.
When playing a sorcerer, I can have more fun with a primal sorcerer as healer because I can blast and heal and do other stuff.
If you make an arcane tradition caster, you're pretty much locked into utility damage dealer. No healing. No real unique buffs. You have this very limited role and ability to impact the group. Since blasting, especially single target, can be underwhelming, I found that the arcane tradition doesn't feel like it can impact the battle as well as other casters who can switch to healing or maybe use a battle form effectively or do other things between blasts.
I think you underestimate a lot the ability to do both good blasting and good debuffing on a single character. Primal is really good at making HP numbers go up and down, but has some issues with buff and debuffing (it also has a slighly harder time targetting Will saves with impactful effects, at least to the degree Occult and Arcane can). As an arcane caster, if damage is not going to work for whatever reason, you still have an excellent math-swinging game.
Take primal and exchange the ability to use restorative spells for the ability to cast stuff like True Strike, Hideous Laughter/Roaring Applause, Phantasmal Killer or Maze.
If you don't like Arcane that much, I advise you to give the list another try playing an Imperial Sorcerer. Make sure to grab a good focus spell early on (Extend Spell and Arcane Countermeasures, as good as they may be, are quite niche, so having something like Psychic Dedication for Guidance is great). Get the Spellbook feat and Crossblooded for either Heal or Synesthesia. Swashbuckler for One for All is also neat. I assure you you will have a good time.
As for the Witch example, Fervor is completely...
I've tried Arcane multiple times. Every time I try arcane, I wish I was occult. When I'm an occult sorcerer, I pick up a blaster spell with Crossblood Evolution. You don't need them that often.
Primal has slow for bosses. They have lots of blasting power and some cool summons. I use more summons from primal than other lists. They have banishment. I haven't felt lacking using primal. The primal list has lots of interesting ways to use it.
I find with the PF2 combat paradigm, Arcane doesn't stand out. My group kills very fast. Duration spells that aren't buffs don't mean much. Even boss battles are usually 3 to 5 rounds of kill or be killed. Hit them hard and fast, heal as needed.
It's been 3 plus years of PF2 being out. Arcane list is a known quantity at this point. It's tied for 2nd or 3rd best list with primal and slightly behind primal if you want a secondary healer that can do other things.
When constructing a group, primal and occult casters are easier to build around. Any time you can get healing and just about everything else in one list, you have more role versatility and group build flexibility.
Force damage is exactly that "force", it is not bludgeoning the target but destroying from sheer power.
This is just kicking the can down the road
As for what elements are tied to it, that is the Astral and Ethereal planes. Astral plane is the mental side while Ethereal is the physical side.
Ex: Aether, which is straight up force, is the Ethereal plane mixing with the other elements.
I reread portions of secrets of magic and what was said before tracks. The only essence to mention "force" in a way that could be *this* force is spirit. Which feels wrong as I always associated force spells with wizards and arcane magic, and frankly nothing else. The book however makes it sound like clerics and bards should get force spells, and wizards should not. Also feels extremely wrong
Spells with the force tag:
Blade Barrier, Blink Charge, Bracing Tendrils, Deity's Strike, Etheric Shards, Floating Disk, Force Cage, Forceful Hand, Friendfetch, Inner Radiance Torrent, Kinetic Ram, Magic Missile, Repelling Pulse, Resilient Sphere, Shield, Spellwrack, Spirit Blast, Spirit Song, Spiritual Guardian, Spiritual Weapon, Telekinetic Maneuver, Wall of Force, Weapon of Judgment, Whirling Scarves
And for spells based on list:
Divine: 12Occult: 19
Arcane: 14
Primal: 0
Psychic: Astral Rain, Imaginary Weapon
Wizard: Force Bolt
Magus: Force Fang
Monk: Key Blast, Wronged Monk's Wrath
It is worth noting that every spell on the arcane list is on the occult list, divine has the most spells only on it's own list. Starting to notice a pattern of the designers having an occult spell list favoritism though