Sorrei's page

They could Run it both ways have Immortal Archetypes probably similar to Things already got mentioned.
And having mythic as seperated optional rule Set.

Also Words and Common association with them change over time. :)

Yeah when i first looked into the Casting in Pf2 i had the false thought that variable Action casting were the norm and i thought that was a very good idea to take full advantage of the 3 Action System as a caster.

Quicker but weaker option
the Middle ground for two
And the overcharged for a full 3 Action.

But i realised quickly this was not the case :(

100% agree on this but I will say Spell Attact vs AC is something I wouldn't really consider a theme of spell it is something that is purely mechanical like to make it a theme I'd imagine you'd align it with something like a Metal theme for spells where most of the damaging spells from the Metal theme target AC where is something like the Electrity/Lightning theme would be better at reflex saves.

Personally I don't think Sorcerers role should be the themed caster class because all casters should be able to play into a theme

I agree there everyone should be able to Theme, maybe in different ways but still.

Sorcerer are Themed immediadly via there magic influenced blood that is there class idendity but they usualy have themes based on the creature type.

Clerics adapt the Theme of there chosen Gods.

Druids have a theme depends on there Order (or Aspects of Nature)

Wizards have themes based on different Types of Magic or field of Studies.

etc.

Sorrei wrote:

Highly Depends on your Playstyle, from what i read you running a very tight, efficient Boat. But if a group focuses more on RP stuff and invest in that side more its not just a "NPC" Spell. :)

What's gained by having these as slotted spells instead of 5e-style rituals? Utility shouldn't need to compete with power.

There is nothing to gain but i also think the balancing of spellcasting and magic in general seems rather flawed in 2E. I just dislike the classification as "NPC Spell" :)

...

Yeah the Wizards are always universalist if they choose or not.

They cant really be like Characters in Golarion that just fill there Theme and even Call there proffession after there school (Necromancer as example).

Which of course is because they balace the Wizard or spellcasters in a way that requires them to take use of weakness to reach effectiveness, which makes it difficult to just furfill a theme they desire.

They still can get themes in the future even if they dont call it spell schools if they would want to. DnD isnt is the only thing that sorts spells after certain criteria. So something like Spell or Magic Classification/Style/Type could spell be applied.

To be fair. The Huge Manjority of People and there opinion we will never know. Considering only a few small percentage goes piblic with there opinions and discuss about it here or on reddit.

Most people probably will just play on there table local or online and talk with there friends about it.

But in general if i speak with people, yea Specialist and Thematic Magic is the desired thing in Roleplay. Maybe its because it became the norm in media.

Ravingdork wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

I like magic mailbox as an RP spell. I used this spell in Kingmaker to set up communication networks, but it wasn't particularly helpful for combat. It was more of a cool roleplay effect that made the players feel their kingdom was a little cooler for having this communication method. That has value as well, but I don't think such things should be part of any class budget for combat as some imply.

How could you set up any kind of network when it takes 1 hour to cast, and the duration only lasts a day?

Are you going to cast it on two chests and have a porter carry one of them to yonder town three days away? Even if you could get it there in time, it defeats the purpose as you literally just delivered the package, making the spell almost entirely moot.

More an NPC wizard thing. We set up an NPC wizard in the big cities who renewed the spell daily to create a mail network capable of transferring information. It was an NPC doing it.

That's what I mean by RP stuff. Stuff you would set up for NPCs or as a RP feature of your kingdom or adventuring place, but you'd never waste an actual spell slot on that.

Highly Depends on your Playstyle, from what i read you running a very tight, efficient Boat. But if a group focuses more on RP stuff and invest in that side more its not just a "NPC" Spell. :)

Wood kinetic blast can deal vitality damage.

Vitality as in Positive Energy/Light/Creation Forge Energy.

Thematicaly its not the Same to Wood and Nature. Also a Damage Type alone doesnt make a Element. :)

That does sound nice and flavory for sure. :D

Of course even if they would just add traits to gods with the sheer amount they already have...it would take a bit to do that.

I kind of wanna add with my idea here is something not wizard related, but still arcane related for this thread, which is a Cleric of Nethys should probably get arcane spells and perhaps even more. Something about clerics I always found disappointing is that the divine list, and in 1e the cleric list, is such a narrow range of spells that doesn't particularly fit most dieties or rather doesn't give enough. I think it would be cool if a cleric of Nethys could do something like the imperial sorcerer where you get a little spell book and in that can be spells from the arcane or perhaps any tradition. Whatever the limit should be. I think it would be pretty neat

Which could be solved with the Trait Idea :p

Of course like most of my Idea they would be potential stuff for a 3rd Edition in terms of scope.

But in general yes more thematic fitting Spells for CLerics would be nice.

It also depends on how much the Thematic relies on it.
How big of a deal is the Undead Hunger, is a moral dilemma, a heavy burden, just a nuisance. Or just a cool asthetic or lore element.

Maybe traditions should be erased completly and Classes get access to spells of certain traits. Which basicly would be a indirect "class spelllist" when i think about it.

But thats just a thought i had right now.

I had a similar thought that the Wizard and his direction probably could be split up into a few classes. Depending on the flavor of these classes one would still need to adjust the Setting considering Necromancers, Conjurer were wizards in Golarion, even if they took on the Profession Name of said specialists.

I would also support the notion of Vitility (Positive energy) and Void (Negative Energy).

But to bring in something new, how about corrupted elemental options for those we already have. Spontainous Ideas would be

blightburn for earth
hellfire for fire
rot for wood.

In theory the Fighter is the Martial Counterpart of Wizard.
They are potentialy versatile, flexible and do what there name suggest fight. (Pls no Wizard Martial discussion, we have other threads for that)

But there flavor is more selfmade in nature.
Maybe this fighter is a Weapon Master from distant land or noble knight or squire of local lord.

As the other says its more a Roleplay thing, a classic example would also be that as Vampire you need blood.

I like the Modular build of Classes and abilties.
I really like how Attributes are increased and generated and in general the character creation system with the Ancenstry and Heritages.
The 3 Action System also is nice.

When i read all this....i feel a remaster is not enough.

Temperans wrote:

ikarinokami wrote:

Sorrei wrote:

That Arcane and Necromancy are traditionally connected is not surprising considering the very iconic Lich is the result of Arcane Magic and research.

And from the Four tradition given Arcane still fits the best.
Maybe in a other Edition it will get handled differently ^^

but they shouldn't be connected in 2e though. most necromancy spells should be life/spirit (divine list).

This is why I said essences are a distraction and a hinderance. Necromancy fits perfectly to arcane, specially with the lore where necromancers were arcane casters.

It is only after you arbitratily add in essences (which where invented in PF2) that necromancy stops sounding like an arcane thing.

This is where we disagree. It doesn't fit the arcane list, it fits the D&D concept of what a wizard should be.

Ultimately the problem with the arcane list and occult list. is that are both marred by baggage being carried from the Dungeon and Dragons concepts of what wizards and bards should do instead of what the arcane and occult list being bases on the essences) .

the essences makes perfect sense, but the problem is there are designers who still want to play a D&D wizard or bard.

I do hope with the remaster that they lean into their own creation more, and pare down both the occult and arcane list to be in line with their own world structure instead of past ideas from a system they are trying to break free from.

But that is not just DnD where the typical kind of wizard is the one who does Necromancy, one can argue that it is still influence by DnD but the culture inpact is not really escapable.

Golarion and its lore is very much shaped by those things originating in DnD and with that PF1. And we still have classes that very much mimic the DnD Classes you mentioned Bard or Wizard as example, not 1 to 1 but still close enough.

Magic and some other mechanics probably needs to be overhauled in the future and probably some Class Design aswell to completly cut the tie with DnD completly.

Sorrei wrote:

I was going to say that on Golarion most Necromancers are Wizards, Divine Necromancers exist but are way more rare from what i saw.

As one would assume! But the way they divvied essences, it should be flatly impossible for wizards to do any necromancy of any kind. I understand removing spells like Heroism fs, but a lot of what wizards should be able to do crosses into territories of these other traditions and often those things feel inappropriate for those traditions. I don't know for sure, but I think 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition D&D, and then by extension PF1, divine casters rarely if ever got force spells, but here we see a whole hell of a lot. If we had class spell lists again, and only one class could have the spells wall of force, force cage, force hand, magic missile etc, the class I would give it to is wizard and I assume other people would do the same? I'm just so extremely baffled by essences

Mhh...yeah i feel especialy with the lost of the different school of Magic,Something that was baked into the setting, they have reavulate how to handle it. Because Generalist was Not the Standart of Wizards (as bound arcane User) in the Setting. Characters we're defined by those specialisations.

And the Wizard list was used for them all, now it would be the Arcane Tradition.

I was going to say that on Golarion most Necromancers are Wizards, Divine Necromancers exist but are way more rare from what i saw.

That Arcane and Necromancy are traditonaly connected is not surprising considering the very iconic Lich is the result of Arcane Magic and research.

And from the Four tradition given Arcane still fits the best.
Maybe in a other Edition it will get handelt differently ^^

Here are some solid blasts at different spell ranks for you to use with true strike , a shadow signet, and maybe the bard's synesthesia . Enjoy:

Its not ment for me and i would be more of a Utility Caster Fan anyway but thanks for the efford to present these combos for them :)

I mean easier than that would be something like Archive of Nethys that dont use PDFs.

But there buisness isnt purely digital and having physical books is realy nice. :)

I only have physical books for few Systems myself.

Boss Killing Magic sounds rather power gamer-ish so i will choose to understand it as "Very impactful Magic".

One way to archive and balance that is to having to invest a certain amount of actions over a few rounds. So lets say a 6 Action "Chain of Light" that is a guranteed success or something in that direction.
Using up time for bigger and grander magic. It would just a improvised Idea.

We were talking about a Astral/Mana/Sorcery/Magic Point system that replaces Spell Slots entirely :)

There is a Fan System based on PF1 who did that already btw so its not that abstract as you think. They even worked with the normal spell level system....even so i think a complete cut might be more elegant.

But that would be for the Pathfinder 3E designer to decide not me.

Calliope5431 wrote:

Yeah while I would prefer some sort of short rest spell points and they'd make more sense...

So... like Focus Points?

If every spell would be a Focus Spell and there would only be focus points instead of Spell Slots, then yes :)

While i do enjoy them Spell Slot they feel very arachic...and non sensical really. Especialy knowing there original source thanks to this Forum.

Im not surprised that even Franchises that tried that originaly were strongly inspired by DnD got rid of them.

But even more removing them would distance them a lot from DnD as i wrote before Spell Slots are a strongly associated with DnD as mechanic. Removing it seems natural if one wants to get away from that. But even if it would be desired it would be something for a new Edition entirely.

Hey im one of the new people here but its just coindicence that new classes got reveiled in my case. I just was hesitant to look deeper into PF2 because it was so far removed from there original roots but after the OGL Situation and the position of Pathfinder in it and the founding of ORC i drop that hesitation. I first looked at reddit and then later here in the Forums.

Now i post a lil bit try to not be to disruptive and stay polite and friendly if i can. :)

Temperans wrote:

The wizard is supposed to be the "unthemed themed caster" that is why they had the schools that set up what type of spells you got extra and gave you extra abilities for that theme.

I would just say this hasn't been true since Wizard was *the* magic user in 1st and 2nd edition ad&d. Wizards have been generalists since 3e forward and now into PF2e it's very clear wizards are always generalists with a little extra on top

I cant sign that.

It maybe hasnt been the most effective method but that doesnt mean a lot played it. :O

Also i might want to add that Magic Schools (the Academies and Faculties) in Golarion are Themed aswell.

My own impression is that Arcane (and wizard) got shackled by the original DnD version of arcane and Wizard. But back then there were only two kinds of magic, Arcane and Divine.

Now what is the Arcane Magic, what should be there Theme and Essence?
In my opinion it should have control and raw magic as Theme + artificial creations. Magic as Science, Method and applied craft.

With Occult being in theory the Area of Weird and Psychic things one should try to seperate there Area strongly from Arcane to give them both unique idendities.

Sorrei wrote:

I mentioned that in a other thread aswell, the Vancian System is strongly associated with DnD but then again so is the Armor Class to hit system.

Its also strongly associated with Pathfinder. Despite how many people want to ignore it.

Pathfinder 1E is also know as continuation from Pathfinder 3.5 with tweaks the Term DnD 3.75 comes to mind.

But with the System wanting to distance Pathfinder from there DnD Roots those two mechanics points are still a factor.

I mean a civiliced alignment conversation can be fun but about the Product. I know it is a exploded Valentines Joke PDF im glad for Stuart and His Team that they got such a big hit.

I didnt really looked into IT myself tho.

I mentioned that in a other thread aswell, the Vancian System is strongly associated with DnD but then again so is the Armor Class to hit system.

You don't balance around system abusers, you ask them to leave the table if they act selfish regularly :)

I argued in another system about that as well; making everything Mix-Maxer proof can leave everyone who doesn't do Min-Maxing on the floor. It can lead to bad results and break a lot of nice things. From what I've heard since the beginning of PF2E, Spellcasters have been a hot topic of debate. I've read through so much of the Spellcaster discourse that I already feel jaded from it before I ever had the chance to play the game. @-@

But considering Pathfinder wants to stray away from DnD as far as possible, maybe it would be a good idea to completely remove Spellcasting from its DnD roots and go in a completely different direction in the future. There are plenty of other systems one can take inspiration from."

To be fair you can flavor your mythic how ever you want. Its called Archmage but that doesnt have to mean literaly Archmage.

I dont know Attribute based ones sounds a bit boring but i guess that is all a matter of presentation.

Sorrei wrote:

To be fair if the goal is to get away from DnD the Spell Slot system should also be slaughtered at some point or the other because to be honest its one of the most DnD Things there is.

Doesn't matter. Copyright and Trademark don't apply to game mechanics, but they might apply to names. So the slot system is never going to be a problem. But finally got the rename to spell rank.

The Idea of Dark Elven isnt protected either not even very similar ones to DnD considering the Warhammer Dark Elven. Paizo choose to remove them because they are iconic to DnD.

The Fate (stay night) Franchise also utilizes the alignment System one to one and they never operated as tabletop game but as huge franchise. But instead of name changes it gets removed because its very much iconic to DnD.

Its clear they deliberatly want to move away from the DnD Roots with PF2 before and even more now with the Remaster. So its not unreasonable to think that at somepoint they move away from this System aswell. I dont say it will be the Remastered because thats a huge fundamental change but i think its quite possible it happens for a PF3.

To be fair if the goal is to get away from DnD the Spell Slot system should also be slaughtered at some point or the other because to be honest its one of the most DnD Things there is.

Its a huge deal fair but from what i read the Remaster shapes up to be a bigger shake up then expected anyway.

I am a Magic user in basicly every system and game and usualy i dont even go for damage because that is something that others can do aswell but from what i read on a lot of conversation is that Spellcasters are heavily shackled and restrained in all aspects but all of there weaknesses remain. It really scared me away from them to be honest. @-@

I dont need damage power but when most spell options run into nothing its depressing. If Spellcasters are ment to be designated support then there Controll and Debuffs should have a effect most of the time and not occasionaly.

---
About PF1
I was a mythic caster in PF1 for a long multiple years ongoing mythic homebrew campaign and i did had a lot of narrative power and traveled around a lot and helped with logistic, crafting and summoning but in battle i got outshined by our martials everytime by far which i didnt mind. My DM didnt dreadet me, he dreadet our two martials who nuked the enemies into oblivion and balanced encounters around them...which left everyone else in the dust. I cant remember when my spells actualy had there full effect because even with meta magic they just succedet all there saves. So i have my with attemps of debuffing failing.

But i also took more flavorful and character fitting options with some rxceptions to penetrate spell resistence.

I am rather sure Mythic will be something that affects a character from rather early on, Exemplar is a tone setter in that regard...i mean in terms of flavor considering it seems predistined to be played in a Mythic Tier Campaign.

Personally a few things come to mind, but I think out of all of them I think the cleric doctrine has seen no love since release. I would maybe like to see a Inquisitor Doctrine, which gets some things like free skill proficiency in stealth, some kind of crafting like snare or alchemical crafting(maybe something like Friars Craft or Divine Alchemy), and them being all about setting up plans, and buffs against off guard enemies, etc. I would also like to see some specific actions that require deadly simplicity to give the warpriest some interesting combat actions that the cloistered cleric would have to take a feat dip to gain access to. I am really hoping that the doctrines get some love in the War of Immortals book next year.

I also could imagine a Investigator that gets a Methodologie to become a Inquisitor...of course that would also work the other way around.

I would wait for the Remaster to hit for a informed decision because some classes will change more than others.

But thinks like Vitality/positive energy and Void/Negative Kineticist would be something i would like.

I like your Ideas as well Elemental, i see such Druids often enbodied by Fungus and things that are connected to it.

I would like more Outsider Eidolons but i just like those in general.

Maybe a Alchemist that interacts with Blightburn as substance.

Hello new here in this forum so im sorry if i break some courtesy here.
But my base assumtion would be that Mythic Character are balance against other Mythic Characters and Mythic Creatures not base one.

If the party is ment to face Level 25+ Enemies with those Mythic Powers while the max level is still 20 it demands a higher level of power.

But maybe they have will have a handy table that shows that a level 5 Mythic Party counts as level 7 for normal encounter values or something in that direction :)