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You can allow a player to make a case that they should use a different skill than Perception, but only if they base it on something they've established beforehand. For example, if in the prelude to the attack, Merisiel's player had said, “I'm going to dangle down off the chandelier to get the drop on them,” you could let them use Acrobatics for their initiative roll. If they just said, “Hey, I want to attack these guys. Can I use Acrobatics?” without having established a reason beforehand, you probably shouldn't allow it.
Something I leaned into more heavily towards the start of PF2's release was alternate methods of rolling initiative. However, the more I play, the more I find myself saying, "Alright, everyone roll Perception for initiative," and leaving it at that. I love the idea of the fighter bashing open a door, rolling Athletics, and chraging headlong into a number of enemies! ...it's just that those sorts of scenarios haven't really cropped up too often.
Now, obviously every table is different, so I'm looking to see if I've just allowed myself to become lazy or if everyone has sort of defaulted to the easier "just roll Perception, or at least argue for a different skill." This is, of course, leaving aside the ever obvious "Avoid Notice" activities which is one of the few things that interacts directly with initiative rolling.
Okay, how would you do crafting for initiative?
One of my players used Crafting as his initiative because he was piloting a vehicle upon which the combat took place. This is actually explicitly mentioned in the vehicle rules in the GMG, though.
Outside of that subsystem, I had an Inventor who was racing to fix his construct companion before they were jumped by enemies, and I allowed him to use his Crafting as his initiative.
All in all, it's been exceedingly rare in my games to see anything but Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, or Stealth for initiative, but we've had things like Survival, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Performance before.
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I had two rogues in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign, and the party spent most of their time in the 1st module sneaking through the forest. Thus, the rogue players regularly asked, "Can I roll Stealth for initiative?" which let them use their roguish Surprise Attack ability.
If the party encountered a strange creature and had to guess whether it was a threat or not, I let them roll initiative on the skill that would be used for Recall Knowledge. For example, when they encountered a Redcap in the forest, I said to roll Perception, Nature, or Stealth, because identifying that redcaps are very hostile fey is a Nature check. Since the entire party was trained in Nature, some of them expert, this gave some party members an advantage over rolling Perception for initiative. And it increased the chance that the PC who would make the Recall Knowledge check went before the others.
In more mundane situations, asking them to roll only Perception for initiative felt like a failure of my imagination to see what other skill was relevant. Athletics could apply if some physical difficulty, such as swimming, could slow their response. Survival could apply if they were hunting and spotted some prey and I wanted to run it as combat. Thievery or Crafting could apply against a complex trap.
I use mostly perception and stealth for initiative, with deception rarely. I don't use many skills outside of those three.
If the party encountered a strange creature and had to guess whether it was a threat or not, I let them roll initiative on the skill that would be used for Recall Knowledge. For example, when they encountered a Redcap in the forest, I said to roll Perception, Nature, or Stealth, because identifying that redcaps are very hostile fey is a Nature check. Since the entire party was trained in Nature, some of them expert, this gave some party members an advantage over rolling Perception for initiative. And it increased the chance that the PC who would make the Recall Knowledge check went before the others.
I like this a lot and will probably give it a shot in a few of my games. With life being busy, the bulk of my PF2 has moved to Play-By-Post games where I want to make every addition to the story matter much more to progress things. This could be a great way to sort of get initiative moving along with empowering some of my knowledge-focused players more.
You can bet that if there was a door behind which we suspected combat, my Barbarian frequently rolled athletics for "kicking the door down based initiative".
And we've had more than one instance of "Look! A distraction!" to start combat with Deception.
I greatly appreciate stuff like this - it isn't just "Oh, hey, mechanically this is better for me," but it's also a bit of setting up what sort of character the player is going for. Alternative skills feels really good when it sets the tone of the encounter while also being a bit of marriage of roleplay and mechanics.
When my players want to bust down the door and run in, I usually give them the choice of athletics (required for the person locking down the door), acrobatics, or stealth. I also tend to use social skills as initiative for social situations that break bad.
I actually overlooked that using an alternative to Perception is usually meant to be a player choice and not just a GM assignment based on the context of the situation, and was over-assigning skills to the detriment of my players. Trying to cut back on that now.
I think one thing to remember is that in most cases of combat, the players do not know where the enemy is. Rather they stumble upon them and immediately fight, or are ambushed. In such cases perception is what primarily makes sense.
That probably represents 80% or more of combat encounters.
In the cases where that isn't what's happening, you can find other skills make sense.
I fully support using other skills when appropriate, with the understanding that there are limited cases where it's appropriate.
Diplomacy or Deception should be commonplace if you have any sort of discussion before combat.
Arcana/Occultism/Religion/Nature are typically when you get ambushed while pondering something, but it also works great for things like wizard duels.
If Medicine isn't used fairly often, you may be overly handwaving after-combat recovery time.
Athletics is easy if you're attacked while swimming or climbing, but Acrobatics is especially rare for initiative I've found.
Stealth is most common, but I've also used, or seen used, Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.
You can allow a player to make a case that they should use a different skill than Perception, but only if they base it on something they've established beforehand. For example, if in the prelude to the attack, Merisiel's player had said, “I'm going to dangle down off the chandelier to get the drop on them,” you could let them use Acrobatics for their initiative roll. If they just said, “Hey, I want to attack these guys. Can I use Acrobatics?” without having established a reason beforehand, you probably shouldn't allow it.
Unless they are the instigators, as is the case with Mersisiel's example above, the players are unlikely to be aware that Initiative is about to be rolled more often than not. That seems like it would preclude asking to use an alternate skill in advance.
Fortunately, I've played under several GMs who seemed to realize this and allowed requests after the fact, where it made sense to do so.
And I think that's likely why I haven't been using non-Perception initiatives as of late. As I mentioned up-thread, 90% of my games have moved to Play-By-Post, which often means: "Alright, combat has started, lemme roll those initiatives and inform the next player that it's their turn." With space in-between posting, asking folks to retcon a few turns to get a few more points to initiative likely doesn't seem too worth it for most players who just want to get down to some action.
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Mmmmm, though I haven't done play-by-post, I can imagine how that might make it more difficult to weave in alternative initiative skills.
At least, outside of Stealth. If the GM is consistently asking about players' exploration activities, Avoid Notice can almost go hand-in-hand with rolling Stealth for initiative.
I had a (former) player who announced before every single room, every single door, that his rogue was opening the door stealthily. After a while, I figured out that it was because he wanted to use Stealth for initiative.
That's just one bad example. But mostly I love the idea. I have let PCs use Diplomacy for initiative. I've let a bard use Performance. All while they were doing those activities already, of course. But I think it's super fun.
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My stealthy characters always use Avoid Notice. I consider that they always roll Stealth for Initiative.
I do not know why, sometimes our GM starts encounters without us benefiting from our Exploration activities. Is this RAW ?
I thought Exploration (including the benefits of Exploration activities) covered all the time between encounters.
My stealthy characters always use Avoid Notice. I consider that they always roll Stealth for Initiative.
I do not know why, sometimes our GM starts encounters without us benefiting from our Exploration activities. Is this RAW ?
I thought Exploration (including the benefits of Exploration activities) covered all the time between encounters.
I do think there has to be cover or concealment in the encounter scene for someone to take real advantage of Avoid Notice.
Of course, that just means the GM needs to expand their encounter scene to include those things, or cover a wider area that does.
Like, why would my character walk into an open room full of enemies and no place to hide right after I specifically explained to the GM and other players that they were trying to avoid being noticed? (Answer: They wouldn't.)
Sadly, many GMs remain inflexible.
If a player has a good idea, I generally allow any skill for initiative at the cost of their Exploration Activity, as the existence of Avoid Notice shows it's balanced.
So a PC who kicks all doors and rushes into rooms will roll Athletics, a PC who always tumbles into rooms will roll Acrobatics, a PC who impersonates the enemies will roll Deception, a PC who takes an intimidating posture and challenge enemies as soon as they see one will roll Intimidation, etc...
I also sometimes state an alternate skill that can be used depending on the situation, but that's extremely situation-based.
Of course, Perception stays very relevant as a lot of encounters start without the PCs being aware of anything.
My stealthy characters always use Avoid Notice. I consider that they always roll Stealth for Initiative.
I do not know why, sometimes our GM starts encounters without us benefiting from our Exploration activities. Is this RAW ?
I thought Exploration (including the benefits of Exploration activities) covered all the time between encounters.
They do, but remember that they limit you at half speed. So anytime you are moving at a normal pace you can't use them. They are not "free".
Now, if you have the feat to Avoid Notice without losing speed, then it should be a given.
As handwavium as Exploration mode is, moving at half speed doesn't usually matter. Such specifics only matter when there is a countdown timer element to the adventure, or in Encounter mode.
As handwavium as Exploration mode is, moving at half speed doesn't usually matter. Such specifics only matter when there is a countdown timer element to the adventure, or in Encounter mode.
It is important. It's important if you are travelling long distances, it's important if you don't expect an attack, etc...
When you are inside a dungeon, one can expect Exploration Activities to be the norm. But outside dungeons, it's the exception.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is important.
Yes, sometimes it is.
It's important if you are travelling long distances...
Sure, but only if someone cares about when you arrive, such as when there is a time element involved, as I said.
...it's important if you don't expect an attack...
Why would expectation of an attack matter? You typically either get attacked or not, as dictated by the story. Your speed is unlikely to impact it, unlike specific exploration activity choices like Avoid Notice.
When you are inside a dungeon, one can expect Exploration Activities to be the norm. But outside dungeons, it's the exception.
There's some truth to that in practice, but aren't exploration activities intended for both?
A jungle is just a green dungeon without a proper roof.