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maybe a tiara would also work out,
I seem to recall seeing Wonder Woman use her tiara as a weapon, sort of like a chakram or starknife. In the comics, I think.
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It's now like 11 hours until we actually get the playtest, so maybe people can focus more on "here's a fun idea I want to explore for a character" rather than trying to figure out all the countours of the class.
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As a few others have said, the Animist doesn't feel original, at least not in the way it was billed. While that's a disappointment, I'm still excited for the class. Just wish they'd said we're giving you an old class with influences from another old class.
With regard to Exemplar, I don't care for the flavor, but I'm looking forward to digging in to the crunch tomorrow. The flavor can (and will) be discarded.
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"Animist as teased is basically PF1 Shaman with a different coat of paint and maybe some texture differences"
I'd say it's closer to Medium than Shaman if anything, from what was shown "being a spellcaster that deals with spirits" is where the similarities end. It has a class feature that gives it more spells from other sources? Yeah lots of classes do.
You fuse with a spirit and get certain abilities and spells, which is distinct from you have a familiar and an Oracle Mystery and you get Hexes.
"the idea that it was Uncommon (which is less severe than Rare) and had actual setting explanations for where it actually is common were things that helped its situation out more. The odds of having these explanations come to pass in a reasonable manner that isn't just made up of "GM Handwavium," is pretty slim."
That's an assumption you are having. Also, see Iblydos. And Mordant Spire.
"Another is telling the difference between an Exemplar and another, similar class; AKA, class identity. What's to stop the Exemplar from being mistaken for a Champion or Cleric or some other deity-specific class with their miracle-performing abilities?"
I'm not actually seeing the issue here.
"if I can literally roleplay an Exemplar the same way I can a Champion or Cleric (barring taking some dedication feats), then I'm not sure it really succeeds at being a class that has its own identity separate from the others."
Uh, it's powered by the remains of a dead god mutating them. That's a BIG difference from literally every other deity adjacent class right there.
"The last one, and the most important one, is that it mostly promotes player toxicity by essentially "entitling" the Exemplar player to believe they should be the one in the spotlight the most by nature of how their class is presented to be "I'm literally touched by god power,""
No more than any other class, the rules and mechanics should be designed for those that play the game in good faith. If you have a problem player you deal with that out of game, not punish others playing the class by tinkering with it negatively "just in case".
And if nothing else, that's what the Rare tag is there to aid with.
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Exemplar opens up a bunch of stories in Arcadia, Iblydos, and Vudra. Animist really helps represent cool cultures from wvery continent in the game.
I’m giddy! While well-designed, the Kineticist’s primal flavor was never going to be my favorite, but these two design options make up for having taken a “year off” from class hype. Best of luck to those wanted something else!
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I stitched the preview image tiles together using MAH ALL POWERFUL PROFESSIONAL GRAPHIC DESIGNER TOOLS so that you could all have a nice, clean image.
Enjoy. :P
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Narratively, the animist is very far away from the PF1 shaman. There is a fair bit of medium in there narratively, but we will see how similar the mechanic are. It doesn’t quite sound like it will be the class I was hoping for with having to negotiate with spirits, but I’d be delighted to be wrong about that, or wrong about what I think I want.
I am also waiting to judge the exemplar until I see this mechanical cycling in action. I had some initial resistance, but I think there is interesting and dynamic potential.
Neither class feels like a rinse and repeat routine. That is good!
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Very nice, RD!
I suspect the most powerful of your "all powerful professional graphic designer" tools is the one between your ears. :-)
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Being mad about some hypothetical evil players feels like a big waste of time when you could instead talk about "wow, cool interesting hook for a class!"
Very nice, RD!
I suspect the most powerful of your "all powerful professional graphic designer" tools is the one between your ears. :-)
'Tis true that I've gained a headful of XP over the years. :P
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Looking forward to the Exemplar, magical martials that manifest their magic beyond spell slots is my favourite type of class.
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Anyone else getting strong Shaman King anime/manga vibes from the Animist? I am. Not a complaint; just noting the similarities… and I’m here for it. I can’t wait to tear into the PDF tomorrow.
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Anyone else getting strong Shaman King anime/manga vibes from the Animist? I am. Not a complaint; just noting the similarities… and I’m here for it. I can’t wait to tear into the PDF tomorrow.
Not just you, the Nexus preview blurb (clicky) explicitly mentions Yoh from Shaman King :3
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Funnily enough I was just about to start a new short and silly campaign with a heroic, bombastic idiot built as a Battledancer Swashbuckler. Pivoting to Exemplar to participate in the playtest could make a lot of sense here.
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I gotta say, the Exemplar really sounds like a class for players with main character syndrome. And I don't really have an idea how it'll fit into the low-levels with its concept, when everybody is still much more vulnerable than at higher levels. It fits pretty well into the high-levels, though, although there I gotta question how it'll play to its concept of being super special sauce when everybody else is also super special sauce by dint of their anime powers.
Making the iconic look a lot like Maui from Moana also didn't exactly help, since I didn't like that character very much.
Pretty cold so far about the Animist, but we'll see what the class can do later today.
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I have a player at my table who is literally playing an incarnation of Sun Wukong (although in my homebrew world rather than Golarion), just in a "stripped of most of his divinity and forced onto the level of mortals" sort of way, so honestly this might be a really fun playtest for us to try out, depending on when or if Exemplar gets implemented into Foundry.
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I really don’t get the complaints about low-level Exemplars. Most of the Greek demigods spent their time doing things like cattle-rustling and sailing boats around. A lot of myths cast these sorts of characters as “brave guy with a sword,” not some bulletproof Superman.
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Exemplar isn't anymore main character syndrome than any of the other hundred ways your character gained special powers like oracle and sorcerer.
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Exemplar isn't anymore main character syndrome than any of the other hundred ways your character gained special powers like oracle and sorcerer.
"I was chosen by the GODS to be the Chosen One!" is a bit more main character than "I play music really good!" or "Grandma loved a dragon". ^^
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There is literally a background in this game called Chosen One.
But that isn't even what Examplar is, Oracle is closer to that at this point. Exemplars sound like they get their power from a dead god's corpse unless I've been misinformed.
Getting divine power from a god corpse isn't anymore "OMG I'm the main character" than "Personally cursed by the gods with divine power" is.
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Totally called it.
Based on the reactions we had on these boards, demigod the class would totally fit this.I feel like Rare has to be more than something than just being rare in the mundane sense. Our two uncommon classes are uncommon because they engage in setting material that is designed not to be widespread through Golarion and may clash with certain campaign aesthetics.
So a Rare class should be one that has some quality that makes a GM go "no wait I don't want to have to deal with that in my story" above and beyond the sorts of issues people have with Gunslingers.
Also called it.
This is exactly the problem I have with that concept. It not only sounds like the most "I am the protagonist" kind of class that could ever exists, but it also doesn't make sense a class because demigod, if anything, would be an ancestry, background, or an archetype like the undead archetypes. You can literally take any demigod from myth and they likely fall under already existing classes, so I don't see a purpose to make a demigod class honestly.People keep saying "Hero/God/demi-God" class, and I have to admit, I just don't understand what they mean by this.
My thought process would say that demi-god is an ancestry, not a class.
And what kind of role would the Demigod/hero be suited to, what kind of mechanics would y'all envision?
MC Dedication into hero-god would cover other classes.
How is it unthinkable for a Martial to get their power from some godly essence ?
In this game, we have Oracles (directly connecting to divine energies for their magic without having to worship deities), Sorcerers (casting thanks to the otherwordly mystical energies coursing in their blood) and Kineticists (who just happen to have a frigging portal to elemental planes in their body).
Surely, by the same criteria, all of those should have been ancestries, backgrounds or undead-like archetypes too.
Two last things :
- Equating people who enjoy the concept of the Exemplar to total jerks who will surely disrupt the game is extremely insulting. Please refrain from doing this.
- It is posters on the boards who exagerated the "Concept never seen before" thing far beyong realistic expectations.
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Well, Anamist sounds like it could be cool but I'll wait on an assessment until I actually see it but...
The Exemplar, the only good thing I have to say about it is that it's a darn good thing they've made it Rare. I'll hold my tongue on the rest because apparently the same toxic luminaries in the community who I feared would flock to it are already vociferously defending this mistake of an idea. The class concept almost literally screams "LOOK AT ME, I'M THE MAIN CHARACTER" and that's uh... a choice to make...
I do not know if you realize it or not. But you are basically saying that people who enjoy the Exemplar (ie who do not share your opinion on the class) are toxic.
Also calling it a "mistake of an idea" is insulting to the Paizo people who worked hard on this.
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Exemplar isn't anymore main character syndrome than any of the other hundred ways your character gained special powers like oracle and sorcerer."I was chosen by the GODS to be the Chosen One!" is a bit more main character than "I play music really good!" or "Grandma loved a dragon". ^^
Yeah... but it's not Chosen by the GODS. That's Champion. It's "I got a bit of godstuff dripped on me."
Look, this is really straightforward. There are people and groups who can handle it and play it well and have fun with it - either because they can go over-the-top with it in ways that everyone at the table actually enjoys, or because they can dial it down to the level it's actually at rather than the level the stories want to tell it that it's at, and they can fit in normally. Either works.
If that's not you? If that's not the group you play with? If that's not the player who's asking? The Rare tag is there for a reason. This issue has already been handled.
Basically, this will be fun for a decent chunk of the players and GMs out there, and it'll be fun in a way that they wouldn't be able to get if it were not so over-the-top bombastic about things. This class is for them. If that's not you? Well, PF2 has 23 classes right now. This will 24 and 25. You have other options. There's no reason you need to get bent out of shape because they've introduced an option that you don't want that comes with a built-in way to protect yourself from it.
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Exemplar isn't anymore main character syndrome than any of the other hundred ways your character gained special powers like oracle and sorcerer."I was chosen by the GODS to be the Chosen One!" is a bit more main character than "I play music really good!" or "Grandma loved a dragon". ^^
You're blaming the class for the players being bad players.
Also as pointed out by SF, you're thinking of Champion, what we know of Exemplar is they are explicitly not chosen. Unless they take the Chosen One Background, which any class can take.
Heck, even if there's an option for being an offspring of the gods that doesn't make you the Chosen one any more than a Sorcerer. your parent was the "chosen one" if anything.
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All classes are "I'm the protagonist" classes if you choose to hog the spotlight.
I'd like to point out Maui was not the protagonist of Moana, Theseus was just a member of the Argonauts crew, and Sun Wukong had to accompany Tang Sanzang on their journey to India.
So if your player is going to hog the spotlight, the problem happens way before class choice in session 0.
What can I say, except, you're welcome?
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Exemplar isn't anymore main character syndrome than any of the other hundred ways your character gained special powers like oracle and sorcerer."I was chosen by the GODS to be the Chosen One!" is a bit more main character than "I play music really good!" or "Grandma loved a dragon". ^^
The Iconic Exemplar had a piece of a dead god fall on him; not exactly “the Chosen One.”
Imperial Bloodline Sorcerers have literally had “I’m just Inherently Special” since the corebook, and we’ve all somehow survived until now.
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Meanwhile I'm just here being like "I'm getting Exalted vibes"
Anyway, its kinda weird one because flavorwise it feels like "mythic paths, except as level 1-20 class". Like when you look at various mythological hero stories, you can see how it would fit it, but if 2e ever get mythic rules I'm wondering how they are going to affect this class.
It also feels bit weird one to mix in with other characters rather than having party of them, but that is going to depend on how flavor of the class ends up feeling like when you see entire class.
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I still don't understand why we would need a class whose main shtick is “I am larger than life!” when basically that is—and always has been—the concept of player characters in general. What is this class actually good for? What is its design niche?
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I still don't understand why we would need a class whose main shtick is “I am larger than life!” when basically that is—and always has been—the concept of player characters in general. What is this class actually good for? What is its design niche?
Tbf, I've seen people complaining that PF2e classes feel too mundane and not gonzo enough compared to PF1e class building options
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I still don't understand why we would need a class whose main shtick is “I am larger than life!” when basically that is—and always has been—the concept of player characters in general. What is this class actually good for? What is its design niche?
A divine martial who can do supernaturally-impressive stunts on a sort of gameplay rotation is a novel identity mechanically, while the “shard of a god” flavor niche is really fun.
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"I have the power of the gods!" said the Exemplar.
"And I am good with weapons" said the Fighter before critting them to death.
Personally, I think it's an interesting idea. Can't say I will be playing it much, but I still appreciate the idea. Out of the two, animist is probably the one I'm most interested in though.
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"I was chosen by the GODS to be the Chosen One!"Zeus chose a lot of people, that didn't make them special.
I think we're getting a lot of speculative excitement and outrage that isn't going to match the final product.
Eh, it's more a bit of bafflement at the concept of the class, when the games appeal is literally "we managed to make a really well balanced game system". "Super Special Chosen Ones" as the main concept just don't seem to fit into the design space very much.
We'll see how well it's balanced in a few hours, anyway.
"Super Special Chosen Ones" as the main conceptThat's that speculation I was referring to.
Maybe, but it seems to be the thing most people came away with from the presentation. I haven't seen it yet (since I was asleep and had to get to work, where I am now), so I can only work with what other people have said.
Again, in a few hours the actual playtest data will be available. We'll see then how the class really works.
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Meanwhile I'm just here being like "I'm getting Exalted vibes"
Anyway, its kinda weird one because flavorwise it feels like "mythic paths, except as level 1-20 class". Like when you look at various mythological hero stories, you can see how it would fit it, but if 2e ever get mythic rules I'm wondering how they are going to affect this class.
It also feels bit weird one to mix in with other characters rather than having party of them, but that is going to depend on how flavor of the class ends up feeling like when you see entire class.
I think the birth of the Exemplar class will postpone the creation of PF2 Mythic rules for a long time (if ever).
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Exemplar isn't anymore main character syndrome than any of the other hundred ways your character gained special powers like oracle and sorcerer."I was chosen by the GODS to be the Chosen One!" is a bit more main character than "I play music really good!" or "Grandma loved a dragon". ^^You're blaming the class for the players being bad players.
Also as pointed out by SF, you're thinking of Champion, what we know of Exemplar is they are explicitly not chosen. Unless they take the Chosen One Background, which any class can take.
Heck, even if there's an option for being an offspring of the gods that doesn't make you the Chosen one any more than a Sorcerer. your parent was the "chosen one" if anything.
We have had PCs explicitly descended from Higher and Lower Powers for ages in the game too (Aasimar, Tieflings ...).
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If one of my player (or me for that matter if the crunch is fun) ever picks the exemplar, I will thoroughly strip it of any main character connotation and make it "I am a sorcerer that hits stuff instead of casting spells". You have special powers but they are NOT god given, you are not THE chosen one, you are not more special than the others. So basically a bloodrager that went to therapy.
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If one of my player (or me for that matter if the crunch is fun) ever picks the exemplar, I will thoroughly strip it of any main character connotation and make it "I am a sorcerer that hits stuff instead of casting spells". You have special powers but they are NOT god given, you are not THE chosen one, you are not more special than the others. So basically a bloodrager that went to therapy.
I think this is completely legit.
And, yes, the Bloodrager concept is IMO the closest we had to Exemplar in a PF1 Class.
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I honestly don’t see, or am interested really, in the “chosen one” since the origin of the class is literally “dead god blood/flesh/essence hit and mutated me” which is far more interesting to me in many ways.
You’re not the hero foretold in the prophecy.
You’re Spider-Man.
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Yeah, do not care for the god part, imma make it "nondescript gunk hit me and i have now powers" or "my parent was a bard..."