Kineticist and Dual classing

[Tactical Drongo]

As some of you know I am a big Fan of dual classing

With the new Kineticist out I quickly noticed that the class is very self contained and very mad, which makes multiclassing a bit harder

So my first impression of classes for multiclassing and synergies:

Fighter, Swahsbuckler, Thaumaturgist,Monk, gunslinger: No combination possible, the special abilities just don't interact If you don't allow the Impulse to become your 'weapon'

Any full caster: now one has combined limited and unlimited spells and ist incredibly mad, No good vibes Here either as it kinda defeats the purpose

Rogue: has a Lot to gain in Mobility and versatility. In top of that it would not be unfeasable to homebrew a Impuls variation of spell trickster - it would probably end Up a really powerful combination though

Champion: an interesting case, at first it looks like the Champion Vlad in Armor of Stone, rust or hardwood is impressive, until you realize that ist has No Advantages over wearing traditional Armor and you got No place to Put your divine Ally - one could Put it into the summoned shields of the Armor Impulses which is probably stretching the Rules a bit

Barbarian: obvious choice but locks you into a single element, you also won't get the sweet rage damage bonus RAW

Magus: this one is interesting because you could either argue, both with homebrewing and GM permission of course, to allow Impulses to Work as either your weapon or your spell
The weapon slightly increases your damage and Chance to Hit in the Long Run, one needs to watch Ränge compatibility of course
If impulses become your spells you will need expanded spellstrike and the regular one becomes barely an Economy enhancer anymore as Impulses in the Long Run are not really made to compete with Cantrips

Ranger: now this one has enough synergy that ist might be op
Precision Rangers add additional damage to their Impulses which make the semi-mandatory use of them very powerful while the flurry Ranger can just Pelz the enemy easily (ten thousand needles or something) which would maybe even make the abhorent Chainblast an actual viable move

Alchemist and inventor:They just do their own thing in the side with little Interactions with the class

[shroudb]

I'd say that kineticist is the opposite of MAD personally.

With main stat being Con a stat that either way everyone wants to raise, and everything being based on Con, I think it's pretty much the definition of Sad, even moreso than classes like wizard and sorc (who want to increase their main stat in addition to Con).

I don't think you give Champion enough credit as far as options go.

You gain an amazing reaction from the get go for any defensive kineticist, you gain healing capabilities without having to go water/wood, you can extremely easily use a Shield since your attacks don't require 2 open hands.

Shield or mount Ally are the go to obviously, either for the action economy of mount or the protector capabilities of shield (especially at higher level when you get to Raise it without any action loss).

Monk is also very interesting. A Flurry is more damage than a blast, and going with Air alongside the amazing monk mobility can easily mean something like a 2 action air impulse, free stride, Flurry.

Other frontliners like fighter, barbarian, and monk (again) also pair nicely with Wood and its temporary HP, either through impulses or junction to become very self sustainable in the frontlines.

Rogue pairs up greatly with Air and at will invisibility (imp invisible at 16).

Fighter and barbarian with Earth aura junction means that no one can "step" away from them since you can't step in difficult terrain, so they will be triggering AoO that much easier.

Summoner fits very good with any element but particularly Wood since they can drop an Impulse every round now instead of spamming a cantrip, and with wood it fixes their survivability issues. They can also boost Con all the way up since their "attacking" stat is in the Eidolon.

[aobst128]

It's a little isolated mechanically so yeah there's not much synergies. A damage focused kineticist won't gain much out of most classes but a support kineticist I imagine would go well enough with a martial of some kind. Fighter/wood kineticist with access to healing and damage mitigation for the party seems pretty nice. Plus easy temp HP to sustain yourself.

[Mellored]

fire + Flame Oracle (+wood):

Thermal Nimbus + fire junction aura
+ Incendiary Aura + fire junction aura
+ major curse + fire junction aura
+ Sanctuary. (molten wire for more damage).

Stand next to enemies and they will burn.

With wood, you can toss out trees, fruit, herbs, and palisades to your allies, all while getting THP to offset the curse damage. And none of which is a hostile actions.
(*Is volcanic escape a hostile action?)

Monk Stance Savant and others do not require them to be monk stances. (though you probably still want to use one).

Winters Clutch and many other stances would works great for any front line. Add the earth aura and you got yourself a sticky front liner.

And keep in mind, you can make 1 attack without map, then a 2 action impulse.

Also, walls and healing are good for anyone. Sniper gunslinger on a palisades for instance. Or take air and fly.

[aobst128]

Mellored wrote:

fire + Flame Oracle (+wood):

Thermal Nimbus + fire junction aura
+ Incendiary Aura + fire junction aura
+ major curse + fire junction aura
+ Sanctuary. (molten wire for more damage).

Stand next to enemies and they will burn.

With wood, you can toss out trees, fruit, herbs, and palisades to your allies, all while getting THP to offset the curse damage. And none of which is a hostile actions.
(*Is volcanic escape a hostile action?)

Monk Stance Savant and others do not require them to be monk stances. (though you probably still want to use one).

Winters Clutch and many other stances would works great for any front line. Add the earth aura and you got yourself a sticky front liner.

And keep in mind, you can make 1 attack without map, then a 2 action impulse.

Also, walls and healing are good for anyone. Sniper gunslinger on a palisades for instance. Or take air and fly.

The pyro/flame Oracle is actually a character I'm doing in a dual class campaign. It is notable however, that the fire aura junction only applies to fire damage from your impulses only. The bread and butter combo is incendiary aura and flying flame/single action blast. Works like a charm.

[Mellored]

aobst128 wrote:

The pyro/flame Oracle is actually a character I'm doing in a dual class campaign. It is notable however, that the fire aura junction only applies to fire damage from your impulses only. The bread and butter combo is incendiary aura and flying flame/single action blast. Works like a charm.

Missed that.

Though you can still toss in Thermal Nimbus.

[Easl]

shroudb wrote:

I'd say that kineticist is the opposite of MAD personally.

Kinda agree with Drongo on this one. Out of the gate you'll want Con +4, and most PCs will want 4 attribute bonuses divided between Str and Dex to max AC. That leaves a single +1 to allocate to skill or archetype use. At higher levels it gets better, but still, I do feel kinda "fixed" when I chargen a Kineticist for combat. If you want a kineticist with a high Wis, Int, or Cha, then you're giving up some AC to get there.

I more agree with the notion of 'support kineticist' being a decent multiclass starting point. Many of the Junction Auras, Stances, and Impulse Auras can combo quite well with non-impulse types of attacks (though to comment on Mellored's fire build, note that the fire Impulse and Aura Junctions both only affect "your impulse"). Escape effects, walls, terrain effects, and heals are good on any PC. And since a Kineticist has access to both regular attacks and 'vs. Save' rolls, you can somewhat avoid MAP by complimenting your archetype attack with the 'opposite type' attack from Kineticist.

Having said all that, it seems like a lot of work to go to, just to try and find a combo which works as well as straight kineticist. And kineticists are already 'poor' in terms of class feats (i.e. you can use them all for impulses and still want more). So I'd probably only class archetype if it was a free archetype or for the flavor; I wouldn't try it to go looking for some hidden combat edge.

[Easl]

Mellored wrote:

Missed that.

Though you can still toss in Thermal Nimbus.

Yep. Thermal Nimbus, Ghosts in the Storm, Winter Sleet, Ravel of Thorns...most of the stances provide some benefit useful for non-kineticist party members (but remember your safe elements!) or kineticists with a heavy investment in some other class archetype for attack/defense. Even for a stance like Desert Wind, sure the attack part is only good for Kineticist attacks, but the 'conceal me and all my close friends' part of it can help in just about any build.

[aobst128]

Yeah, haven't grabbed thermal nimbus yet. That with incendiary aura is pretty funny.

[shroudb]

Easl wrote:

shroudb wrote:

I'd say that kineticist is the opposite of MAD personally.

Kinda agree with Drongo on this one. Out of the gate you'll want Con +4, and most PCs will want 4 attribute bonuses divided between Str and Dex to max AC. That leaves a single +1 to allocate to skill or archetype use. At higher levels it gets better, but still, I do feel kinda "fixed" when I chargen a Kineticist for combat. If you want a kineticist with a high Wis, Int, or Cha, then you're giving up some AC to get there.

What class has more than 1 flexible stat?

Fighters you want Str/Con/Wis/Free
Wizards you want Dex/Con/Wis/Int
Rogue you want Dex/Wis/Con/Free and Str if you're not Thief or Cha if you're Scoundrel
Cleric you want Con/Wis/Dex and if you want armor Str
Etc etc

Most classes have 0-1 flex, and Kineticist is at 1 alongside the rest SAD classes.

[Sanityfaerie]

Things get a lot more flexible if you're willign to let your AC lag a bit. Like, yeah, for AC you want 4 attribute bonuses between Str and Dex, but you'll never need *more* than that. If you're willing/able to wait until level 5 for your ac to hit standard max you can scavenge a bump or two for use elsewhere.

Of course, that's going to depend on things like what levels the campaign is covering, and how often you expect to be taking attacks vs AC.

[pH unbalanced]

I'll sit alone on the "CON is an overrated stat" island...at least for Casters. My experience is that my casters either take no damage, or are focused and quickly KOd, and that their actual hp are irrelevant.

I'm currently working my way through the 8 CON Elven Witch challenge -- living life on the edge with only 6 hp more than my familiar. So far so good...always watching out for AoEs.

[gesalt]

pH unbalanced wrote:

I'll sit alone on the "CON is an overrated stat" island...at least for Casters. My experience is that my casters either take no damage, or are focused and quickly KOd, and that their actual hp are irrelevant.

I'm currently working my way through the 8 CON Elven Witch challenge -- living life on the edge with only 6 hp more than my familiar. So far so good...always watching out for AoEs.

It's not about hp, it's about minimizing the odds of getting hosed by a fort save. I'm sure your friends will appreciate your intentional +x% chance to be slowed 1 or 2 for an entire combat or turned to stone because you wanted to have the cha to use convincing illusion or something.

[Mellored]

Easl wrote:

note that the fire Impulse and Aura Junctions both only affect "your impulse"

Would that include the damage from Kindle Inner Flames?

"When an affected creature takes a move action, its Strikes deal an extra 2 fire damage until the end of its turn."

[Easl]

Mellored wrote:

Easl wrote:

note that the fire Impulse and Aura Junctions both only affect "your impulse"

Would that include the damage from Kindle Inner Flames?

[deleted original answer as irrelevant. I initially misunderstood your question]

Do you mean can you combine KIF + Aura Junction? Good question. I think so.

The general description of Aura Junctions says "An aura junction adds an effect to your kinetic aura when you Channel Elements.". There's a strict/mean way to interpret that, and the way I tihnk most people interpret it. The way most people interpret it is: whenever you turn your aura on, it now comes with this new portable effect. Every where it goes, the effect triggers on whomever walks into it. In which case, every enemy walking into your aura gains the weakness to your fire impulse damage.

The strict/mean way to interpret that is to say the weakness only affects enemies who are in the aura's range when you do the 'channel elements' action. In this interpretation, if you channel elements before combat/at a safe distance, then use move actions to bring an enemy inside your aura, they do not have the weakness.

I think most GMs use the first way. Not only is it more effective for the player, but it is less of a 'target tracking' headache for the GM.

Either way, KIF is 'your fire impulse.' So whomever the GM rules is affected by your Aura Junction should gain weakness to the added strike damage caused by KIF.

[pH unbalanced]

gesalt wrote:

pH unbalanced wrote:

I'll sit alone on the "CON is an overrated stat" island...at least for Casters. My experience is that my casters either take no damage, or are focused and quickly KOd, and that their actual hp are irrelevant.

I'm currently working my way through the 8 CON Elven Witch challenge -- living life on the edge with only 6 hp more than my familiar. So far so good...always watching out for AoEs.

It's not about hp, it's about minimizing the odds of getting hosed by a fort save. I'm sure your friends will appreciate your intentional +x% chance to be slowed 1 or 2 for an entire combat or turned to stone because you wanted to have the cha to use convincing illusion or something.

Oh don't worry, she has countermeasures. Targeting her is a trap.

But in the more general case, I wouldn't generally *dump* CON, I just think it is fine to have it split bumps with another stat, so that it is sitting comfortable as the number 4/5 stat. (For stats I generally go 2 high, 1 mid, 2 low, and 1 ignore. Outside a Kineticist, CON is never higher than mid.)

[Mellored]

Easl wrote:

Either way, KIF is 'your fire impulse.' So whomever the GM rules is affected by your Aura Junction should gain weakness to the added strike damage caused by KIF.

Should be pretty good dual classed with a melee flurry ranger then.

Then you'll have high single target damage plus plenty of ranged and AoE options.

[shroudb]

There's a ton of controversy about KIF interaction with the aura junction (as an example, it's the only thing that gets worse when you level up with that interpetation, since when it upgrades to flaming rune it stops "dealing damage" and thus then it doesn't benefit from it)

some people say it's the iumpulse that deals the damage, others say that the impulse just gives a buff and then it's the weapon strikes that deal the damage.

just make certain to clear up with your GM on which side of the argument he stands before you base your character on that.

[Easl]

Mellored wrote:

Should be pretty good dual classed with a melee flurry ranger then.

I'm guessing that's a Ranger who takes the Kineticist archetype? So you're getting the combo at level 16 (for a level 8 kineticist feat), and you're not getting the Aura Junction power of Fire weakness because archetypes don't give those? Done the other way (kineticist main, ranger archetype), I'm not sure you can get the flurry benefit. It really seems like ranger and kineticist buddies in a party makes it much better and easier to pull off the combo than one PC trying to do both roles. But I'm not completely familiar with the archetype rules so maybe I'm missing something.

For comparison, a level 16 fire kineticist is probably dropping 10d8 blazing waves each turn or solar detonations every second turn, with the whopping Weakness 8 thrown in. So better AoE than the ranger/kineticist (IMO), though probably not the single target dpr or action economy of the flurry ranger.

[Mellored]

Easl wrote:

I'm guessing that's a Ranger who takes the Kineticist archetype?

Dual class is a variant rule.

You get all features of both classes.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1328

Obviously more powerful than normal.

Quote:

So you're getting the combo at level 16 (for a level 8 kineticist feat), and you're not getting the Aura Junction power of Fire weakness because archetypes don't give those?

yea, wouldn't get the fire weakness with archetype.

Still, 3 feats for a free action step and +2 damage isn't the worst. (+ burning jet for an escape).

Going water, getting deflecting wave and winter sleet would be strongest. But there are some other good options.

[PossibleCabbage]

Geokineticist+Mountain Style Monk could be a fun character. Notably, you can still attack at range in Mountain Stance because Impulses and kinetic blasts are not strikes.

[Sanityfaerie]

running dual-class with Kineticist means that you pretty much have to pick one class to be primary and the other to be support.

For kineticist as support, you're looking at things like auras, utility powers, openers, the ability to efficiently use leftover actions, and easy access to ranged attacks on those who would not otherwise have easy access to ranged attacks. Your major cost for this (other than the class slot itself) is the need to keep one hand available - either free or filled with an earth/metal/wood shield.

Side note that Psychic in particular has an interesting use for a kineticist secondary, as it provides a very solid answer to the question of how they're supposed to use Imaginary Weapon without crumpling over from the melee threat. I haven't run the numbers to know if that's at all competitive with what the kineticist already brings to the table, though.

If you're taking kineticist as primary, then you're looking for other classes as support that can bring something to the table in places that the kineticist doesn't fill.

- Alchemist is a very solid one, probably best as a chirurgeon. Ignore bombs (except for healing bombs) and poisons unless you have someone else in the party who really likes one or the other. Focus on healing elixirs and mutagens and the occasional alchemical tool for when you have a specific need. Hand out a big chunk of your alchemist class budget every morning, and then just play like a kineticist with a healthy potions supply.

- Casters in general have some benefit, in that you can afford to hard-burn on your high slots, trading efficiency for effectiveness, and then fall back on being a fully functional kineticist the rest of the time. Good picks are Flames Oracles and Bards.

- Investigator can work, if you're able to consistently Follow a Lead in a combat-applicable way. Keep a firearm that's specced for crit damage, make your freebie rolls on Devise a Strategem, and when one of them comes up as a crit, take the shot, while pretty much playing as a kineticist otherwise. Works well with Wind. If you generally find yourself in fights where you can't prep with Follow a Lead, then the combo basically isn't worth it.

- Champion can work, though in this case I'd encourage you to not use a Paladin. Still, a redeemer with a shield who focuses their class feats on the reaction side of the house and maybe the occasional aura buffs can get a lot of juice out of their reactions without requiring any real resources other than one hand spent on a shield and a habit of staying up in the front lines. Do try to keep a halfway decent weapon around, though. for those cases where you do run into things that are weak to Holy damage. Might I suggest a Fire Kineticist of Sarenrae?

- Thaumaturge isn't useless. You're not getting much benefit out of exploit vulnerabilities or anything, but the ability to do things like Mirror your auras on to two places on the battlefield at once is potentially interesting. Still, it's awkward, and notably less useful for the kineticist than for many martials.

- Summoner is a possibility, working off of the fact that the kineticist doesn't have a good use for their flourish. Take your cantrips for utility, burn through your relatively small number of spell slots in some reasonably efficient way, find something moderately useful to do with your focus abilities, and probably set up your eidolon as a turret in ranged fire configuration while you do your thing. The MAP is a bit annoying, but that just means tuning your kineticist side to not use Elemental Blast all that much. You may well wind up spending most of your summoner class feats on archetypes, and that's fine.

Now, a kineticist isn't a particularly strong pick for dual-classing. It's not going to be able to compete with the kind of synergies you can get with bomber alch/remastered rogue or Fighter/Starlit Span or Thaumaturge/Monk or stumbling monk/rogue with an archetype into swashbuckler. There's all sorts of ways to pick up that martial/martial cheese, and kineticist isn't going to give you any of it. Still, if what you're looking for is something more in line with a caster/caster or caster/martial dual class in terms of power, then kineticist has a few that are at least reasonably efficient.

[Mellored]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Your major cost for this (other than the class slot itself) is the need to keep one hand available - either free or filled with an earth/metal/wood shield.

1+ hands (longbow) also works, as well as free-hand (gauntlets).

I wouldn't consider a Fighter with a longbow, who can fly, turn invisible, and drop walls at-will, with a side of healing and a resistance or 2 to be weak. Also, don't forget reflow for utility.

Kineticist as secondary a lot of versatility. And everyone has Con so it makes a decent backup if your against a high AC target or something.

Kineticist as primary doesn't do as well though, I agree. It's a versatile class by itself, but you can't really boost it.

Though
Flame Oracle's Incendiary Aura and Witch's Elemental Betrayal (+Cackle) can both be gotten with dedication, and they stack.

[Mellored]

Fire + Champion (Redemption).

Try to team up with a scout and activate your Aura's before battle.

Level 1
Flying flame (avoiding overflows)
Burning Jet
Weight of Guilt

Level 2
Weapon Infusion (ranged option)
Oracle Dedication

Level 4
Thermal Nimbus
First Revelation (Incendiary Aura)

Level 5
Fire Aura
???

Level 6
Aura of Courage
Volcanic Escape

Level 8
Sacrifice Armor (for Armor in Earth)
Elemental Overlap: Molten Wire

Level 9
Earth Junction
Armor in Earth

Level 10
Aura Shaping
Attack of Opportunity

Level 12
Effortless Impulse (for next level)
Lasting Doubt

Level 13
Rock Ramparts
Earth Aura

Level 14
Assume Earth's Mantle (bigger Auras)
Greater Impose

Level 16
Imperious Aura
Divine Reflexes

Level 17
Fire Elemental Resistance (immune to fire and cold)

Level 18
Ignite the Sun (or maybe the 500' attack, even if it kills
Celestial Form

Level 20
Kinetic Pinnacle
Shield Paragon

[Sanityfaerie]

Mellored wrote:

Though

Flame Oracle's Incendiary Aura and Witch's Elemental Betrayal (+Cackle) can both be gotten with dedication, and they stack.

The Oracle archetype's curse is pretty rough, though. Like, it can be worth it, but it gets ugly. Having the curse off of the full class instead is a lot gentler in some ways. No idea how much the remaster is likely to change that.

[Mellored]

More of a 2 kineticist idea, but..

kineticist 1 uses Scorching Column, Jagged Berms, or Hell of 1,000,000 needles.
Either will give 6 vertical squares of hazardous terrain.

kineticist 2 (or turn 2) uses Rising Hurricane. Sending them up and down though the hazardous terrain 12 times (13 with water Junction).

Jagged Berms does the most here, capping at 9d6 = 31.5 per square.
* 13 squares = 409.5
+51 from Rising Hurricane itself
+6d6+ 30 falling.
= 460.5

*still does 200 or so to flying creatures.

Any way to give weakness to piercing?

* you can't get Scorching Column and Fire Aura on the same turn since it's an overflow, but even then it caps at 13+10 = 23 per square.
*Elemental Betrayal would add 6 per square = 29 max. Still worse than Jagged Berms.

[Mellored]

Remastered Elemental Betrayal can now give vulnerability to Wood.
So ravel of thorns can be painful.

Though it is now vulnerability, so won't stack with fire Aura anymore.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

kineticist doesn't need high str

but they do suck at pretty much all skill

that can be a problem

[Easl]

Mellored wrote:

More of a 2 kineticist idea, but..

kineticist 1 uses Scorching Column, Jagged Berms, or Hell of 1,000,000 needles.
Either will give 6 vertical squares of hazardous terrain.

kineticist 2 (or turn 2) uses Rising Hurricane. Sending them up and down though the hazardous terrain 12 times (13 with water Junction).

Well you're talking a two-person, six-action coordinated combo that requires the opponent fail both a reflex and fortitude save to work. So it's okay if that's highly effective. Having said that, I probably wouldn't allow jagged berms to work in that way. IMO the air kineticist doesn't have enough directional control over the rise OR fall to continuously push the target back into the stakes. It's a hurricane wind, not precision telekinesis. You get to move them 5' in any direction, once - not continuously direct their path as they move up and then down (also note the berms only create hazardous terrain when they are destroyed - you get the stakes or the hazard, but not both at the same time. And obviously if they are destroyed, you get a pile of hazardous terrain on the ground where they fall, not hanging in midair). Scorching column and Hell seem okay to combo though.

In terms of storytelling any of the three sounds like a really cool scene. So maybe I'd allow berms + hurricane to clear a scene of a mob in an unimportant or theater of the mind combat. Villains and major npcs though? Nope. For them, I'd consider how I'd handle the situation if a PC was the target of the combo - and if it was a PC, I certainly wouldn't be forcing them to take Nd6x12 squares automatic stake damage. I think just about any player would consider that unfair. I'd say make an acrobatics check or reflex save to avoid it or even just say it doesn't happen because the enemy kineticist doesn't have the control over their movement enough to keep them constantly hitting the spikes. And in this respect, villains get the PC treatment.

[PossibleCabbage]

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

kineticist doesn't need high str

but they do suck at pretty much all skill

that can be a problem

Well, in general sure. But wouldn't a dual class earth kineticist + gorilla style monk be the best grappler in the game, bar none?

You're going to have monk speed in effectively plate mail (from Armor in Earth), have a +1-3 status bonus to Athletics from the Earth skill junction, have the ability to grapple at range with Sand Snatcher, will eventually get an +1 item bonus to STR from Assume Earth's Mantle, and you have all the monk maneuver goodies like Crushing Grab, Whirling Throw, Flurry of Maneuvers, Mixed Maneuver, etc.

[Mellored]

Easl wrote:

Mellored wrote:

More of a 2 kineticist idea, but..

kineticist 1 uses Scorching Column, Jagged Berms, or Hell of 1,000,000 needles.
Either will give 6 vertical squares of hazardous terrain.

kineticist 2 (or turn 2) uses Rising Hurricane. Sending them up and down though the hazardous terrain 12 times (13 with water Junction).

Well you're talking a two-person, six-action coordinated combo that requires the opponent fail both a reflex and fortitude save to work.

Not sure why you need a reflex save.

The Rising Hurricane is doing the movement, which requires a failed Fort save.
Everything else is auto-damage per square.

Though I suppose you can use Grab an Edge on Jagged Berms, at least on the way down.

Quote:

IMO the air kineticist doesn't have enough directional control over the rise OR fall to continuously push the target back into the stakes. It's a hurricane wind, not precision telekinesis.

I mean, house rule if of you think it's too good. Probably is.

But I don't see any rule to suggest that it would be lifted straight up and fall straight down. No need to make 5' unless you caught an extra target.

Quote:

also note the berms only create hazardous terrain when they are destroyed - you get the stakes or the hazard, but not both at the same time.

it's difficult terrain when destroyed.

Quote:

not hanging in midair

stack 6 blocks on top of eachother, in a tower, with spikes on each side. Nothing in mid air.

Though notably this doesn't work nearly as well inside.

Quote:

Scorching column and Hell seem okay to combo though.

are there any other vertical hazardous terrain?

Because Rising Hurricane seems to be the biggest forced movement by far. And it does it twice.

Quote:

In terms of storytelling any of the three sounds like a really cool scene. So maybe I'd allow berms + hurricane to clear a scene of a mob in an unimportant or theater of the mind combat.

Story wise, I think scorching hurricane would look awesome, and thematic.

[Easl]

Mellored wrote:

Not sure why you need a reflex save.

Both scorching column and Hell of 1000 needles give a basic reflex save. So the target will first get a fort save to avoid being lifted/take damage from Hurricane, and then a reflex save to avoid taking the heat/needle damage.

Quote:

But I don't see any rule to suggest that it would be lifted straight up and fall straight down

Well the description specifically states you can move them 5'. And that is obviously talking about where they land. That's it; being lifted by the hurricane doesn't give the caster control over 'path upward' in the hurricane.

I agree, there is nothing written in Hurricane that indicates that if there is a 5' square column in the hurricane, the victim must constantly bump into it as they get lifted in the air. That's the point; your combo with berms requires that they do constantly bump into it. Nothing about Hurricane indicates that the caster has that level of control over the victim's movement.

Quote:

stack 6 blocks on top of eachother, in a tower, with spikes on each side. Nothing in mid air.

Again, berms themselves are not hazardous terrain, so your 6-block tower is not hazardous terrain. They only become hazardous terrain when they are destroyed. In which case they are no longer a 6-block tower.

Quote:

Though notably this doesn't work nearly as well inside.

For sure; rising hurricane is quite conditional in value. You need outdoors or a very tall ceiling, and non-flyers. Also, the fort save removes all the falling damage instead of half, so there's that to consider too.

It's a very cool impulse, IMO. But may not as reliably damaging as some others.

[Mellored]

Easl wrote:

Mellored wrote:

Not sure why you need a reflex save.

Both scorching column and Hell of 1000 needles give a basic reflex save. So the target will first get a fort save to avoid being lifted/take damage from Hurricane, and then a reflex save to avoid taking the heat/needle damage.

the damage per square is there no matter if they results of the reflex save. Even if they critically succeed.

If they fail the reflex, bonus.

Quote:

Quote:

But I don't see any rule to suggest that it would be lifted straight up and fall straight down

Well the description specifically states you can move them 5'. And that is obviously talking about where they land. That's it; being lifted by the hurricane doesn't give the caster control over 'path upward' in the hurricane.

-Lift .. to any height you choose within the area

-move it up to 5 feet in any direction
-then drop it.

Nothing says they go up in a spiral or randomly.
The 5' is before the drop.
Drops are straight down.

[Qquote]stack 6 blocks on top of eachother, in a tower, with spikes on each side. Nothing in mid air.Again, berms themselves are not hazardous terrain

It's difficult terrain on AoN

Unless they errata it, but that doesn't make sense as a spell then.

[Sanityfaerie]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

kineticist doesn't need high str

but they do suck at pretty much all skill

that can be a problem

Well, in general sure. But wouldn't a dual class earth kineticist + gorilla style monk be the best grappler in the game, bar none?

You're going to have monk speed in effectively plate mail (from Armor in Earth), have a +1-3 status bonus to Athletics from the Earth skill junction, have the ability to grapple at range with Sand Snatcher, will eventually get an +1 item bonus to STR from Assume Earth's Mantle, and you have all the monk maneuver goodies like Crushing Grab, Whirling Throw, Flurry of Maneuvers, Mixed Maneuver, etc.

- Sand Snatcher doesn't get to stack with any of your other grappling shenanigans.

- Gorilla stance isn't actually giving you a lot here.

You're also completely ignoring the Barbarian and Swashbuckler additions to grappling.

- On the barbarian side, Furious Bully gives you a +2 status bonus, Brutal Bully just lets you add your strength damage on to athletics maneuvers gratuitously while raging, and Thrash is a nice way to burn actions that you don't have other uses for to just add damage to the enemy. Furious Grab is potentially pretty nice too... and it combos well with Predator's Pounce if you happen to be an animal barb.

- On the swashbuckler side, Gymnasts start out with a +1 circumstance bonus from Panache and get extra bonus damage to stabbing grabbed foes once they get Exemplary finisher. Agile Maneuvers gives you better MAP on your grapples. Then once you hit level 10, Derring-Do lets you roll twice when you have panache, and panache paragon gives you a built-in haste that can be used for grapple attempts.

Oh, and Flurry Rangers don't get all that much, but they do get an applicable form of MAP reduction that stacks with the MAP reduction from agile weapons.

It's also the case that there's basically two different schools of grapple build. One of them likes making athletics checks (supported by things liek the above) and the other woudl much prefer to make strikes and then get their grapple effects added on for free. For the second type, you really want a Fighter base, for that oh-so-delicious proficiency bump, and wrestler archetype. That one doesn't benefit quite as much from dual-classing, though.

[PossibleCabbage]

Interesting, Furious Bully stacks with the Kineticist Skill Junction since one is a circumstance bonus and one is a status bonus.

So an Earth Elemental Instinct Barbarian dual class kineticist can get both. That would be a fun, albeit very specialized character.

[Mellored]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Oh, and Flurry Rangers don't get all that much, but they do get an applicable form of MAP reduction that stacks with the MAP reduction from agile weapons.

the remaster makes grapple with your fist Agile.

Impulse are concentrat. So won't work with rage. But there's still some good Auras and utility.

[PossibleCabbage]

Elemental Instinct gives impulses of the element you pick the rage trait. This is primarily useful on a dual class Barb/Kineticist. You can pick up one composite, though, so if you want to throw people at the jagged berms you can.

[Sanityfaerie]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Interesting, Furious Bully stacks with the Kineticist Skill Junction since one is a circumstance bonus and one is a status bonus.

So an Earth Elemental Instinct Barbarian dual class kineticist can get both. That would be a fun, albeit very specialized character.

Honestly, I think that the Swashbuckler/Barbarian is the better play there, if you want to stack status and condition. The condition bonus might not be quite as high, but "roll twice" is a hell of a drug.

Admittedly, this does mean that you're specifically picking a finesse weapon and then fighting with strength anyway, but...

[PossibleCabbage]

Rolling twice is nice, but I think the Kineticist is going to give you a lot more tools than the Swashbuckler- Heavy Armor, Large Size, Tremorsense, a ranged attack, resistance/immunity to poison, etc.