Dual Gate seems better than Single Gate given you can get a Single Gate Impulse Junction later on when you start getting Gate Junctions. The only way to access Composition Impulses is being Dual Gate.
Even when you Fork the Path, it doesn't let you pick up Composition Impulses from what I can tell.
But if you get Dual Gate, you can still pick up Single Gate Impulse Junctions.
It seems to be making it optimal to go Dual Gate, so long as you going to make at least level 5.
Unless I'm missing something.
On composite impulses: mono-element kineticists can pick up any of the composites that have their one element as a level 8 feat, if you fork at 5 after starting single gate then they can be picked up like regular impulses with the impulse instead of a class feat option for any that you have both elements of as well as it being an option if you have the needed elements on each expand the portal (so if you start single gate, fork at 5 and then expand at 9 you can pick up a composite there at 9 without spending a class feat on it)
I think Fire and Earth work pretty well together. Thermal nimbus wants you pretty close (pre level 10) and armor in eath helps with that. You lose out on the Fire impulse junction for a while (since you wanna pick up aura junction at 5), but you gain damage to Elemental Blasts by being able to invest in strenght and a d8 blast. And weapon infusion gives you decent range while also allowing you to use STR at range. You can also gain Lava leap early which is amazing.
Less damage than mono fire, but a tankier spin on Thermal Nimbus+ Aura junction shenanigans and more options against fire resistant enemies (not all of those have the fire trait so Extract Elements doesnt solve all resistances) and also gaining some support via Spike Skin and Wall of stone.. Thermal Nimbus solves stones problem of being a great tank with no way to draw aggro. With your strenght investment you can even grapple foes or hit them with your Strenght Boosted elemental blasts
Dual Gate seems better than Single Gate given you can get a Single Gate Impulse Junction later on when you start getting Gate Junctions. The only way to access Composition Impulses is being Dual Gate.
Even when you Fork the Path, it doesn't let you pick up Composition Impulses from what I can tell.
But if you get Dual Gate, you can still pick up Single Gate Impulse Junctions.
It seems to be making it optimal to go Dual Gate, so long as you going to make at least level 5.
At higher level dual is often better. At lower level, you generally really want that impulse junction and often the aura junction. I've already discussed how mono-fire really wants to stay mono-gate until level 9, because the aura and impulse junction are so critical for their damage.
Dual gate means you don't get either impulse/aura junction until 5. This is painful, as impulse/aura junction are passive effects that do not take actions to activate, unlike impulses. The only benefit to dual-gate at lower level is getting more impulses.
I imagine most games in the level 1-4 range will be mono-gate, 5-8 are probably...
It seems like the tradeoff is supposed to be "early access to composite impulses" vs. "early access to junctions." Like you could make the case that the Fire/Earth character is better starting from level 1 as dual gate, since the fire aura wants you to be *very* close before you get aura shaping at 10th level, and that's something you're much more comfortable doing as someone with the Earth Armor up. Plus, if you need to do d8s on your attacks, you can use earth blasts instead of fire blasts.
Thats how I made my Earth/Fire Kineticist too.
I beging with pure earth to get access to Armor in Earth +1 circumstance bonus to AC while have d8 in Impulses and Tremor.
When reaches lvl 5 is where I take fire and Thermal Nimbus.
An in level 9 I get Fire Aura Weakness and in 13 the Fire Impulse Junction to get d8 in fire impulses.
Candlejake wrote:
Less damage than mono fire, but a tankier spin on Thermal Nimbus+ Aura junction shenanigans and more options against fire resistant enemies (not all of those have the fire trait so Extract Elements doesnt solve all resistances) and also gaining some support via Spike Skin and Wall of stone.. Thermal Nimbus solves stones problem of being a great tank with no way to draw aggro. With your strenght investment you can even grapple foes or hit them with your Strenght Boosted elemental blasts
Not exactly.
Mono fire's DPR at low levels isn't the best because the 1-action EB is 1d6 and Flying Flame deals less damage than Tremor.
Things only start to get really good for fire from level 5 onwards, which is when the aura and Thermal Nimbus come together. But without Aura Shaping, the range of the aura is very short, which leaves the aura options very limited.
That's why starting with earth is quite efficient, you start with much more AC, stronger blasts and a very efficient AoE Impulse, and the fact that it overflows at this low level is not a significant problem (OK, it can mess up reactions , but it's still pretty efficient).
Then when you gain access to the Aura Shaping level you are already ready, and if you also took Two-Element Infusion you get d8 Blasts that benefit from the fire weakness.
Interestingly, it's something I noticed in most of the builds. Where having 2 elements, but starting with single-gate is usually the most efficient way, because you get the benefits of the main junctions right at the beginning and then you get impulses from other element(s) that interest you as well .
If you wanna be a grappler, you go pure earth. +1 circumstance AC, +1 status Athletics (auto scaling) and aura junction to make you a better tank/controller is worth more than any dual+ gate and you want those bonuses online ASAP.
Mono fire's DPR at low levels isn't the best because the 1-action EB is 1d6 and Flying Flame deals less damage than Tremor.
Things only start to get really good for fire from level 5 onwards, which is when the aura and Thermal Nimbus come together. But without Aura Shaping, the range of the aura is very short, which leaves the aura options very limited.
That's why starting with earth is quite efficient, you start with much more AC, stronger blasts and a very efficient AoE Impulse, and the fact that it overflows at this low level is not a significant problem (OK, it can mess up reactions , but it's still pretty efficient).
Yeah I agree fire comes into its own by L5 or L6, and by level 10 it's very very happy (with aura shaping you incinerate anything nearby, and the 30 foot cone of blazing wave benefits from the increased size, meaning you get a big damage boost).
In a lot of ways, fire and air feel the most "put together" of the elements. Maybe that's just because they have the most mobility options between air impulse junction and lava leap, but the other elements feel clunkier and don't have as defined of a combat strategy.
In a lot of ways, fire and air feel the most "put together" of the elements. Maybe that's just because they have the most mobility options between air impulse junction and lava leap, but the other elements feel clunkier and don't have as defined of a combat strategy.
I disagree. Earth is clearly the Grappler/Athletics Powerhouse, if you want to play the tank/battle field controller. Creating your own hazardous terrain and throwing/shoving enemies into it is something other classes can only pull off with the help of team mates. A Kineticist does this on his own.
That protector tree ability of wood looks nutty to me on paper. It just acts a protective blocker of damage against strikes as long as one of your allies adjacent. Is there something I'm missing? That thing gets up to 90 to 100 hit points.
That protector tree ability of wood looks nutty to me on paper. It just acts a protective blocker of damage against strikes as long as one of your allies adjacent. Is there something I'm missing? That thing gets up to 90 to 100 hit points.
It's great damage absorption with 10 damage per Spell rank. Compare that to one of the best spells in the game, Heal, which heals 12.5 damage per Spell rank.
However, note that it can only block attacks. All those monsters that have special abilities or spells to damage party members will not care about your trees.
That protector tree ability of wood looks nutty to me on paper. It just acts a protective blocker of damage against strikes as long as one of your allies adjacent. Is there something I'm missing? That thing gets up to 90 to 100 hit points.
It's great damage absorption with 10 damage per Spell rank. Compare that to one of the best spells in the game, Heal, which heals 12.5 damage per Spell rank.
However, note that it can only block attacks. All those monsters that have special abilities or spells to damage party members will not care about your trees.
They can also attack the tree directly, autocrit, and bulldozer it in like one or two attacks. Or blow it and you up with AoE at the same time.
What do people think of the skill junctions? I initially wrote them off but fire and earth skill junctions are pretty nice. Earth builds that grab assume earth's mantle (like they should) have a lot of strength to work with using athletics along with the skill bonus.
Although, following through with the athletics focus might end with holding a whip, which kinda clashes with the look of an earth specialist.
What do people think of the skill junctions? I initially wrote them off but fire and earth skill junctions are pretty nice. Earth builds that grab assume earth's mantle (like they should) have a lot of strength to work with using athletics along with the skill bonus.
Skill junction along with Assume Earths Mantle puts you on the same level as Monk and Barbarian in being the best grapplers in the game. Since you are able to put down your own hazardous terrain, you profit from being a grappler more than the other classes, unless their party can provide said terrain.
What do people think of the skill junctions? I initially wrote them off but fire and earth skill junctions are pretty nice. Earth builds that grab assume earth's mantle (like they should) have a lot of strength to work with using athletics along with the skill bonus.
Although, following through with the athletics focus might end with holding a whip, which kinda clashes with the look of an earth specialist.
The problem with skill junctions is they only make you trained, they don't upgrade proficiency. Burning a junction on that seems like a poor choice when you could get resistance/gate junction/impulse junction, especially since you already get plenty of skill feats and skill increases.
What do people think of the skill junctions? I initially wrote them off but fire and earth skill junctions are pretty nice. Earth builds that grab assume earth's mantle (like they should) have a lot of strength to work with using athletics along with the skill bonus.
Although, following through with the athletics focus might end with holding a whip, which kinda clashes with the look of an earth specialist.
The problem with skill junctions is they only make you trained, they don't upgrade proficiency. Burning a junction on that seems like a poor choice when you could get resistance/gate junction/impulse junction, especially since you already get plenty of skill feats and skill increases.
The main reason to pick them up is the passive +3 status bonus on the skill imo.
The problem with skill junctions is they only make you trained, they don't upgrade proficiency. Burning a junction on that seems like a poor choice when you could get resistance/gate junction/impulse junction, especially since you already get plenty of skill feats and skill increases.
Who cares about the trained skill? The reason to take a skill junction is a permanent +1/+2/+3 status bonus to said skill, which more than compensates for the fact that you can only start with 16 in a skill attribute.
Yeah, the +1/2/3 status bonus is the relevant thing. Handy for pyrokinetisists too that have the charisma from an Oracle multiclass for incendiary aura.
The problem with skill junctions is they only make you trained, they don't upgrade proficiency. Burning a junction on that seems like a poor choice when you could get resistance/gate junction/impulse junction, especially since you already get plenty of skill feats and skill increases.
Who cares about the trained skill? The reason to take a skill junction is a permanent +1/+2/+3 status bonus to said skill, which more than compensates for the fact that you can only start with 16 in a skill attribute.
I guess? Doesn't stack with heroism, though. And also grappling is...like. Sort of a bad use of an action for a kineticist? You have to sustain the grapple and stuff, and you have a very tight action economy.
The problem with skill junctions is they only make you trained, they don't upgrade proficiency. Burning a junction on that seems like a poor choice when you could get resistance/gate junction/impulse junction, especially since you already get plenty of skill feats and skill increases.
Who cares about the trained skill? The reason to take a skill junction is a permanent +1/+2/+3 status bonus to said skill, which more than compensates for the fact that you can only start with 16 in a skill attribute.
I guess? Doesn't stack with heroism, though. And also grappling is...like. Sort of a bad use of an action for a kineticist? You have to sustain the grapple and stuff, and you have a very tight action economy.
Depends on what you're going to be focusing on in the moment. With smaller numbers of enemies, grappling and tripping to waste enemy actions combined with agile single action blasts is probably more useful than spending actions with aoe's or overflows.
The problem with skill junctions is they only make you trained, they don't upgrade proficiency. Burning a junction on that seems like a poor choice when you could get resistance/gate junction/impulse junction, especially since you already get plenty of skill feats and skill increases.
Who cares about the trained skill? The reason to take a skill junction is a permanent +1/+2/+3 status bonus to said skill, which more than compensates for the fact that you can only start with 16 in a skill attribute.
I guess? Doesn't stack with heroism, though. And also grappling is...like. Sort of a bad use of an action for a kineticist? You have to sustain the grapple and stuff, and you have a very tight action economy.
There are things that very much would prefer not to get grappled and if you're in a "get in people's faces and ruin their days" mode that's a good tool to have in your toolkit. Plus you're basically always going to have a free hand to grab people with.
Sure, but as a grappler, you basically have a permanent auto-heightening Heroism for the primary purpose you need it, which is insane. Also, not every group has buff bots that do nothing else with their spell slots but buffing you.
Calliope5431 wrote:
And also grappling is...like. Sort of a bad use of an action for a kineticist? You have to sustain the grapple and stuff, and you have a very tight action economy.
This is where you are wrong. Just because you are a Kineticist, doesn't mean that all you can do is spam your Impulses every single turn. Especially with permanent damage zones like Jagged Berms, giving you full control over the battle field, limiting enemy movement. And once they reach you, you Grapple+Whirling Throw them into the spikes, double dipping your damage.
Later you spam Earth Quakes and can throw enemies into fissures that result from those. Now the enemy has to waste actions climbing and then walking through huge difficult terrain zones your throw around, doing little else.
Sure, but as a grappler, you basically have a permanent auto-heightening Heroism for the primary purpose you need it, which is insane. Also, not every group has buff bots that do nothing else with their spell slots but buffing you.
Calliope5431 wrote:
And also grappling is...like. Sort of a bad use of an action for a kineticist? You have to sustain the grapple and stuff, and you have a very tight action economy.
This is where you are wrong. Just because you are a Kineticist, doesn't mean that all you can do is spam your Impulses every single turn. Especially with permanent damage zones like Jagged Berms, giving you full control over the battle field, limiting enemy movement. And once they reach you, you Grapple+Whirling Throw them into the spikes, double dipping your damage.
Later you spam Earth Quakes and can throw enemies into fissures that result from those. Now the enemy has to waste actions climbing and then walking through huge difficult terrain zones your throw around, doing little else.
Yes, but you are a Con build. You can't have your Str as high as some other PCs, certainly not as high as a Str based fighter or monk. So your overall accuracy is only about the same as theirs with your status bonus.
Throwing enemies into a fissure at level, what, 12? Most of them can fly , and it's only 10 feet deep, meaning they can still reach out of it if they're big (which they are, because it's level 12+). The monk or fighter is probably better at this than you are.
I do think grapple build might be sort of interesting, but yes.
Yes, but you are a Con build. You can't have your Str as high as some other PCs, certainly not as high as a Str based fighter or monk. So your overall accuracy is only about the same as theirs with your status bonus.
Earth has an impulse that provides them an item bonus to Strength, so they can reach +6 and only be one behind a fighter/monk. That's +2 vs their baseline on Athletics with the maxed out, always on status bonus.
Fire can do the same thing with a secondary charisma and tertiary strength build to go insane on Intimidate - get that skill feat that provides a 1-2 circumstance bonus for high strength.
Air doesn't have any additional boosters for their Stealth that I know of, but they do have Clear as Air to always pull out some concealment or invisibility to hide in.
Even metal at high level may want legendary crafting to quick repair a Sturdy Shield that's part of their Alloy Iron and Flesh invulnerability strategy.
Are skill junctions an easy or obvious pick? Hell no. But they can make sense for some builds.
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
Yes, but you are a Con build. You can't have your Str as high as some other PCs, certainly not as high as a Str based fighter or monk. So your overall accuracy is only about the same as theirs with your status bonus.
Earth has an impulse that provides them an item bonus to Strength, so they can reach +6 and only be one behind a fighter/monk. That's +2 vs their baseline on Athletics with the maxed out, always on status bonus.
Fire can do the same thing with a secondary charisma and tertiary strength build to go insane on Intimidate - get that skill feat that provides a 1-2 circumstance bonus for high strength.
Air doesn't have any additional boosters for their Stealth that I know of, but they do have Clear as Air to always pull out some concealment or invisibility to hide in.
Even metal at high level may want legendary crafting to quick repair a Sturdy Shield that's part of their Alloy Iron and Flesh invulnerability strategy.
Are skill junctions an easy or obvious pick? Hell no. But they can make sense for some builds.
The impulse is level 12, though, so you're spending over half your career behind the curve. Just pointing it out.
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Deriven Firelion wrote:
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
Starting out with air will give you great mobility. I'm taking an Elf air kineticist into PFS next week and free movement of 15 feet with each two action impulse from level 1 will help a ton with positioning.
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
Wouldn't Weapon Infusion, choosing the "range increment 100 feet and the volley 30 feet trait" option solve your problem?
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
The kinetic aura itself isn't a stance, so you can have that activated all day much like a martial with their weapon out. It's only a problem if you have a stance impulse you need to activate like fire.
Kineticist itself is a bit like melee magus in that you have a very tight action economy to keep your numbers high. It's why I plan to grab a mount if I ever play one. Air can get around it with its impulse junction but the rest need movement assistance.
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
Yeah fire and air are pretty easy to blend in (depending on your preferred combat style of course). Lava leap is good for getting into range, as is air impulse junction and the air impulse lightning dash . Alternatively, you can go two-element infusion if you don't want to sacrifice wood/metal damage dice but want the range increment of fire or air with your blasts.
The other thing worth asking - what level were you? Because as another poster said, weapon infusion for thrown/range 100 feet helps a bunch if you have room (I like going human in general, and kineticist makes a strong case for Natural Ambition since versatile blasts and weapon infusion are both excellent level 1 feats).
And obviously if you're really high level, all shall end in flames, rouse the forest's fury, turn the wheel of the seasons, hell of 1,000,000 needles all have 500+ feet of range, but even 1st level impulses like magnetic pinions or aerial boomerang have range 60 feet, if that would help.
The impulse is level 12, though, so you're spending over half your career behind the curve. Just pointing it out.
Since you make baseless claims all the time, here are the actual numbers:
Comparing to the 2 best grappler classes in the game, Monk and Barbarian.
At level 1-4 you are indeed behind by 1 point in Athletics, here you primarily Elemental Blast, unless you know you are facing a low Fort enemy that is easy to grapple and said grapple has a purpose.
At level 5-7 you are the best grappler in the game, being 1 point above everyone else.
At level 8-13 Barbarian and Monk take over by 1 point thanks to Furious Bully and Clinging Shadows Stance.
Level 14 you are equal.
At level 15-16 you are better by 1 point.
Level 17-19 you are equal.
Level 20 you are 1 point behind.
And this is comparing to the best grapplers in the game. Since you mentioned Fighters, those would be better level 1-4 and you would be better the rest of the game.
However, what puts you above all other grapplers is the ability to place your own hazardous terrain, which you can do starting on lvl 8. Said terrain gives you control over how your enemies move around the map and are also a great target for Whirling Throw or even Shove to make your playstyle not just gimmicky but also very effective.
Part of the issue I'm having trying to figure out a Kineticist grappler is "how are you going to get an item bonus to your grapple attempts" (the junction gives you a status bonus). The best I can come up with is "MC Monk for Gorilla Stance (compatible with armor, but it's a stance) and buy Handwraps."
Part of the issue I'm having trying to figure out a Kineticist grappler is "how are you going to get an item bonus to your grapple attempts" (the junction gives you a status bonus). The best I can come up with is "MC Monk for Gorilla Stance (compatible with armor, but it's a stance) and buy Handwraps."
By simply getting the standard Athletics items? I. e. Lifting Belt, Armbands of Athleticism etc.
Part of the issue I'm having trying to figure out a Kineticist grappler is "how are you going to get an item bonus to your grapple attempts" (the junction gives you a status bonus). The best I can come up with is "MC Monk for Gorilla Stance (compatible with armor, but it's a stance) and buy Handwraps."
By simply getting the standard Athletics items? I. e. Lifting Belt, Armbands of Athleticism etc.
I think I was misreading Armbands as only applying to Climb and Swim checks, instead of what it actually does "i.e. give an extra bonus to those things."
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
Wouldn't Weapon Infusion, choosing the "range increment 100 feet and the volley 30 feet trait" option solve your problem?
Yes. I decided to switch to fire. I like the way it looks with metal.
Fire seems more useful for halting regen and the resistances are more common, though poison resistance was nice.
I like that level 1 fire spell that let's you do damage in any path you want as a save.
The guy is an human aasimar serving an evil king in Kingmaker. So I'm restyling it as he thinks of himself as being a hellforged weapon of steel and hellfire.
I should have made him a skeleton. Then Ghost Rider.
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
The kinetic aura itself isn't a stance, so you can have that activated all day much like a martial with their weapon out. It's only a problem if you have a stance impulse you need to activate like fire.
Kineticist itself is a bit like melee magus in that you have a very tight action economy to keep your numbers high. It's why I plan to grab a mount if I ever play one. Air can get around it with its impulse junction but the rest need movement assistance.
This guy is a dual class bard/kineticist. So he is very action starved at low level, but it will get better as he rises in level.
Fortunately kineticists get effortless impulse at level 12, which should help out quite a bit.
--- Conclusion: I'd take this for the healing and/or forced move. One of the auras is also pretty nice from a debuff standpoint... though the heavy use of overflow (and three-action overflow specifically) makes liking it for its auras not necessarily all that great. Everything else would be something that I adjusted to because I wanted those things, rather than being a thing I wanted for itself.
No one has really talked about water yet, so I wanted to contest this.
So here is the thing about water. You can pretty cleanly break up its overflow impulses into 2 types.
2 action overflows that leave you an action to recover your aura/stance. These are fairly self explanatory. You can use these and still put your aura back up.
Then there are 3 action overflows which don’t. All of them, including the composite 3 action overflow, have a range of at least 120 feet. Water is the only element that consistently has effects at this range, as most elemental impulses sit around 30-60 feet. And this is well outside the range in which Winter Sleet, Water’s main combat stance is relevant.
The 3 action impulses impair vision and/or affect movement that slow down enemy approaches and make ranged enemies miss. The exception is the non-flavor capstone which is a gap closer.
In close range, water switches gears, enters one of its really good stances and sticks to 2 action overflows which are on more of the short range side in order to continue to mess with enemy movement, provide off-guard, and fish for slows on as many enemies as they can.
A more dedicated healer might use sea glass instead, but I think water needs outside support to manage it, medic dedication or wood.
I ran the metal and wood kineticist today. I'm thinking it might be better to have one longer range element with one shorter range element. That was a noticeable issue with combat. No way to increase range of blasts made it so I couldn't open with my aura blast without moving. I'm going to look over fire and air, see if they mix well with something else.
Wouldn't Weapon Infusion, choosing the "range increment 100 feet and the volley 30 feet trait" option solve your problem?
You can't apply Weapon Infusion to the free blast from using Channel. It's a free action that you have to use before a blast.
At level 1-4 you are indeed behind by 1 point in Athletics, here you primarily Elemental Blast, unless you know you are facing a low Fort enemy that is easy to grapple and said grapple has a purpose.
At level 5-7 you are the best grappler in the game, being 1 point above everyone else.
At level 8-13 Barbarian and Monk take over by 1 point thanks to Furious Bully and Clinging Shadows Stance.
Level 14 you are equal.
At level 15-16 you are better by 1 point.
Level 17-19 you are equal.
Level 20 you are 1 point behind.
In fairness, this analysis shows that you are behind barbarian/monk for 11/20 levels (and behind other Str based classes as well for levels 1-4), you're ahead 5/20 levels, and you're equal 4/20 levels. Not quite a ringing endorsement, though certainly not bad given how close you are! More relevantly, though, the parts where you lag are the first ten levels of the game (mostly), which is relevant since those are more frequently played.
And you do want to remember to account for heroism , at least sometimes. I don't think it'll always come up, but some parties do make heavy use of it, and it does mean you're always behind whenever it's cast.
As you raised the issue of the fighter being a bit worse at Athletics, I would also point out that Combat Grab exists as a feat and automatically grabs people you hit (yes, it is press, but that's less relevant for the fighter who has +2 to hit over normal people and can be using an agile weapon). Of course, any fighter can benefit from that particular feat, so it's less relevant to this Athletics bonus breakdown.
But in conclusion, you're certainly not a poor grappler, and I do hope I didn't give you the impression that I thought earth kineticist was. I just maintain that there may be better things to be doing with those actions and gate junctions for many people.
The impulse is level 12, though, so you're spending over half your career behind the curve. Just pointing it out.
If you're taking skill junction before 13 that's a yikes from me.
Yeah agreed, impulse junction/aura junction/another element are pretty much always higher priority at level 5/9. And I'd question playing a grappler before you picked up skill junction (given the numbers drop-off you're several points behind other people who focus on it).
After level 13? You at least have a toolbox for it between the stance and the status bonus to Athletics. Whether or not it's a good idea for your actions is your call.
The impulse is level 12, though, so you're spending over half your career behind the curve. Just pointing it out.
If you're taking skill junction before 13 that's a yikes from me.
If you're committed to mono-earth, I could see taking it at 9 (After taking the critical junction at 5). The aura junction from Earth just doesn't seem that valuable. If you actually want to be "world's best grappler" you could do skill at 5 and crit at 9 even.
The impulse is level 12, though, so you're spending over half your career behind the curve. Just pointing it out.
If you're taking skill junction before 13 that's a yikes from me.
If you're committed to mono-earth, I could see taking it at 9 (After taking the critical junction at 5). The aura junction from Earth just doesn't seem that valuable. If you actually want to be "world's best grappler" you could do skill at 5 and crit at 9 even.
Agreed. Earth's aura junction isn't impressive and a single gate already has impulse junction. Critical junction is nice but unreliable. The resist junction has poison, which is nice, but.
And the level 6/8 impulses for earth are solid so branching elements isn't necessary if you want to get your grappling on sooner. (Bonus points for Sand Snatcher and grappling two things at once, but)
And the level 6/8 impulses for earth are solid so branching elements isn't necessary if you want to get your grappling on sooner. (Bonus points for Sand Snatcher and grappling two things at once, but)
I'd agree aura/resistance/critical junctions aren't necessary for an earth build. You might be able to go without impulse junction with dual-gate at level 1, but at that point you do miss out on some good defenses.
Remember that your Athletics status bonus from skill junction goes away when your kinetic aura poofs. I'd worry about my Athletics bonus dropping from overflow. Earth doesn't have many in-combat non-overflow impulses. Calcifying sand is overflow (and a reaction). Tremor and Weight of Stone are both overflow (and Weight of Stone is 3-action, so any grapples you might have had up end). Overflow also shuts off Assume Earth's Mantle, meaning if you do anything with overflow your Athletics build is not going to have a good time until you channel again.
You can certainly go for Sand Snatcher, and it does let you do a lot of grappling, but at that point you're burning 2 actions per turn just sustaining/grappling (one to sustain the impulse, one to grapple). Once you hit 12 and get effortless impulse that problem is solved, of course, but that comes back to the whole "this build is more of a level 12+ sort of character" thing. You could also just grapple + sand snatcher and then in subsequent rounds grapple + sustain sand snatcher + blast? Either way, Sand Snatcher does impose multiple attack penalty when it grapples...and that it uses your impulse attack bonus, so it's going to miss more than Athletics would.
Not saying it's impossible, but playing it might eat into a lot of actions and you may miss with some of those 2nd or 3rd grapples.
Personally, if I really wanted to grapple at low level, I might consider dual-gating into something with a 2-action non-overflow impulse from level 1. Aerial boomerang + grapple (taking expand the gate: air impulse junction for mobility at either 5 or 9 and earth skill junction at the other of 5 or 9) allows you to not waste actions moving. Depends how you feel about Sand Snatcher, I expect. I'd worry about the accuracy, myself.
I wonder how much undiscovered cheese we've yet to find. Looking at crawling fire now. Seems kinda meh since you don't get your aura damage around it but I wonder if fire composites are allowed. Could be fun with lava leap and ash strider since the thing is pretty fast.
The thing I'd want with a grappler kineticist is the ability to use "Whirling Throw" (gained through the wrestler archetype) in order to throw people into the Jagged Berms I placed earlier. So I'd want either mono-earth or earth/wood.
You can certainly go for Sand Snatcher, and it does let you do a lot of grappling, but at that point you're burning 2 actions per turn just sustaining/grappling (one to sustain the impulse, one to grapple).
Only 1 action, not 2.
And 0 from level 12 and forward.
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Each time you Sustain the impulse, you can have the sand snatcher either Grapple again or Burrow, Climb, or Stride up to 20 feet
The thing I'd want with a grappler kineticist is the ability to use "Whirling Throw" (gained through the wrestler archetype) in order to throw people into the Jagged Berms I placed earlier. So I'd want either mono-earth or earth/wood.
Talk to your GM about how he handles the interaction between Whirling Throw and Jagged Berms, because it can get quite insane depending on what your GM says, with the potential of being the strongest single target damage ability a Kineticist has access to.
What I mean by that is, the wording of Jagged Berms: "For each square of wooden stakes a creature enters, that creature takes 2d6 piercing damage."
If your GM rules that Whirling Throw is pretty much a horizontal throw, then the thrown creatures would enter every single square between you and the target destination. Now if you have an example Jagged Berms placement like the following one:
You are the K, your target is o, B are the Jagged Berm mounds and X are the spikes from your mounds. You could throw the target through up to 6 damage zones, which at level 8 (earliest possible) would be 6x3d6, so up to 18d6 in addition to the Whirling Throw + Grapple damage of 3d6+8, so 81.5 dmg on average. Nothing would come even close to that damage, provided that those are optimal conditions that will not apply anywhere near as easily/often, but even with 4 squares, the damage would still be 15d6+8, ergo 60.5 damage, which is still the best single target damage you can achieve at that level. Since Jagged Berms scales with +1d6 per 2 character levels per square, the damage only gets more insane the higher you go.
If on the other hand, your GM rules that it is a curved throw, then you might only get the damage of a single square in which the target lands, which is still fine, since in that case you would want to throw your target centerish of above zone of pain. That way, your target would take less damage from your throw but more damage because of walking out of said zone.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Subutai1 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The thing I'd want with a grappler kineticist is the ability to use "Whirling Throw" (gained through the wrestler archetype) in order to throw people into the Jagged Berms I placed earlier. So I'd want either mono-earth or earth/wood.
Talk to your GM about how he handles the interaction between Whirling Throw and Jagged Berms, because it can get quite insane depending on what your GM says, with the potential of being the strongest single target damage ability a Kineticist has access to.
What I mean by that is, the wording of Jagged Berms: "For each square of wooden stakes a creature enters, that creature takes 2d6 piercing damage."
If your GM rules that Whirling Throw is pretty much a horizontal throw, then the thrown creatures would enter every single square between you and the target destination. Now if you have an example Jagged Berms placement like the following one:
You are the Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️, your target is ⭕, ⬛ are the Jagged Berm mounds and ❎ are the spikes from your mounds. You could throw the target through up to 6 damage zones, which at level 8 (earliest possible) would be 6x3d6, so up to 18d6 in addition to the Whirling Throw + Grapple damage of 3d6+8, so 81.5 dmg on average. Nothing would come even close to that damage, provided that those are optimal conditions that will not apply anywhere near as easily/often, but even with 4 squares, the damage would still be 15d6+8, ergo 60.5 damage, which is still the best single target damage you can achieve at that level. Since Jagged Berms scales with +1d6 per 2 character levels per square, the damage only gets more insane the higher you go.
If on the other hand, your GM rules that it is a curved throw, then you might only get the damage of a single square in which the target lands, which is still fine, since in that case you would want to throw your target centerish of above zone of pain. That way, your target would take less damage from your throw but more damage because of walking out of said zone.
Converted to emoji to make it a little easier to visualize. Hopefully I got it right.
Talk to your GM about how he handles the interaction between Whirling Throw and Jagged Berms, because it can get quite insane depending on what your GM says, with the potential of being the strongest single target damage ability a Kineticist has access to.
Yeah whirling throw is wacko - I did similar math. At L20 it's like 255 to a single target with 5 actions of setup (3 to activate jagged berms, 1 to switch on Assume Earth's Mantle for grapple bonuses, 1 to grapple). And then of course the action to whirling throw. It's not ideal in low/moderate encounters where all the monsters are already dead by the end of round 2 or 3, but it can be better in bigger ones. You want to avoid bigger monsters where possible, of course, since whirling throw really penalizes you for trying to toss them.
As you say, check with your GM, since in addition to the curve issue there's also the "it's technically not a push or pull" issue that means you can't throw them into hazardous terrain. I've heard people argue that before for whirling throw - probably not an issue? But definitely ask first, since you don't want to spring this sort of thing on your GM without vetting it.
It's a decent build when you can guarantee the setup. Less good if they have damage reduction (since it applies to each instance of the berms), if they're gigantic (good luck tossing something gigantic with -4 penalties), or if they move away from the berms in between your setup turn where you create them and your grapple + throw turn.
Quote:
Nothing would come even close to that damage, provided that those are optimal conditions that will not apply anywhere near as easily/often, but even with 4 squares, the damage would still be 15d6+8, ergo 60.5 damage, which is still the best single target damage you can achieve at that level. Since Jagged Berms scales with +1d6 per 2 character levels per square, the damage only gets more insane the higher you go.
Mmmm, generally I think you're right! Two caveats, though:
1. This requires over a round a setup, so it should not be compared to other builds in a vacuum. It's competing against two rounds of someone else's damage. Other PCs can probably deal 60 damage in two rounds - it's not that bonkers. Assuming you want to assume three rounds and you get another whirling throw off, I still think they can probably deal 120 in three rounds at that level. That's only 40 damage per round.
2. It's single-target. This is great! But other kineticists can be tailor-made for blasting, which is inherently multi-target. For instance, consider the level 8 build that uses Thermal Nimbus and Blazing Wave every round.
math:
You're looking at 6d8+4 (~31) to two targets with the wave, plus another 8 to everyone in your kinetic aura every round, for 39 per single target per round, or 78 damage per single target per two rounds. Crude doubling for multi target against 2 people is 156 damage. I don't think it's that valuable...but being save half on blazing wave (and autodamage on thermal nimbus) vs. miss none on the grapples/throws means at the very least fire kineticist has a decent argument for dealing more, and even fire kineticist single-target damage is still...39 per round, 1 point lower than 3 rounds of jagged berms.
So yeah, think it's pretty solid and nice job! Just wanted to add in those caveats.
Quote:
Only 1 action, not 2.
And 0 from level 12 and forward.
Ah, what I meant was that it takes 1 action to sustain the impulse and 1 action to grapple normally with Athletics (and multiple attack penalty). My concern with a mono-earth Athletics grappler build is that you have literally no non-overflow impulses that you can use besides Sand Snatcher, because overflow turns off your Athletics bonus.
action breakdown:
Which means your actions look like:
Round 1: start with channel elements up out of combat (no action), use sand snatcher (2-action), grapple someone normally (1-action with multiple attack penalty)
Round 2+: sustain sand snatcher (1-action), grapple someone normally (1-action with multiple attack penalty), and then your third action is sort of empty. You can try using grapple/elemental blast, but at -10 multiple attack penalty that hurts.
Obviously, the whole whirling throw interaction described above solves that, but besides that character I'm not seeing a lot of ways for mono-earth to actually grapple and use impulses, because all your overflow impulses turn off your grapple bonuses, and earth has nothing but Sand Snatcher for non-overflow impulses. Hope that clarifies.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seems my revised diagram from before may have been a little off. Apologies.
.
.
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎⬜ Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ = Me
⬜⬜❎⬛❎❎⬛❎❎⬛❎❎⬛❎❎⬛❎❎⬛❎⬜ ⭕ = My Target
⬜⭕❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎❎⬜ ⬛ = Jagged Berm
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ ❎ = Spikes
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
Wouldn't something like this be easier and do more damage at higher levels?
Assuming 7 Strength modifier, a high level ally could toss 45 feet for 4d6+7 damage plus another 8d6 per square of berm spikes (or an additional 72d6 damage).
76d6+7 = ~272 damage.
Seems high, even for ~18th-level. Am I missing something?
In any case I suspect berms will get nerfed at some point.
