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If Quick Draw applies to scrolls, they become exactly as action-efficient as the actual spells. There's a reason that it's not already like that.
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Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking.
Changing weapons and equipment. Thrown weapons.
Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.
That is GM and situation dependant. Not every GM lets you wander in encounter mode with your weapons drawn.
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Not to mention the need to swap weapons from time to time! Most archer fighters are going to want a backup melee weapon, many creatures can be damaged more effectively by certain weapons in your arsenal, etc, etc.
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Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking.Changing weapons and equipment. Thrown weapons.
Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.That is GM and situation dependant. Not every GM lets you wander in encounter mode with your weapons drawn.
More situation dependent than GM dependent, I'd think. I've definitely started plenty of encounters without weapons in hand, because there was an ambush in civilization, or just a fight that started while I was doing things I needed my hands for (and my players have had similar experiences in games I run). A declaration that "you can't walk around with a sharp thing in your hand when not actively in combat" that wasn't situation-based would be an incredibly bizarre GM, though.
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Precisly. It varies. If you are going room by room in a dungeon then you will have your weapons out, because you are initiating the encounter. But if you are travelling you probably won't. Some GMs will let you get away with more than others though.
Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking.Changing weapons and equipment. Thrown weapons.
Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.That is GM and situation dependant. Not every GM lets you wander in encounter mode with your weapons drawn.
Not really. It's more of how a group runs situation. If your group scout and moves prepared, then you're the aggressor the majority of times.
I know a lot of groups seem to wander around and wait until the GM goes, "Roll initiative, surprise, monsters."
But if you play with me, I'm almost always proactively scouting and looking for the encounters to be the aggressor.
Usually everyone in the group has stealth and we consider scout/point man a group role during group optimization.
The GM would have to disallow scouting for us to end up in a surprise situation without weapons prepared too often.
Casters are always prepared. You do not want to negate one of the advantages they can have over martials, right ?
Casters are fine with the martials prepared with their weapons. They don't care. They want smart martials who scout, position to intercept attackers, and operate like a seasoned veteran combat team preparing to battle enemies.
Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking.Changing weapons and equipment. Thrown weapons.
I can see a use with thrown weapons. Given no one in my group uses thrown weapons due to being vastly inferior to bows or other ranged attacks, I haven't seen much use for them.
Alchemist bombers already have quick bomber.
I cannot see why you would use a thrown weapon to do inferior damage when you can close the 20 or 30 feet in a single move to engage in melee.
I wish they would make thrown weapons good enough for me to want to take Quick draw to use one. I tried to make a ranged rogue once, but not even that was good with thrown weapons.
I'm trying a Swashbuckler flying blade right now, but even their damage is pretty darn weak so far.
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Casters are always prepared. You do not want to negate one of the advantages they can have over martials, right ?Casters are fine with the martials prepared with their weapons. They don't care. They want smart martials who scout, position to intercept attackers, and operate like a seasoned veteran combat team preparing to battle enemies.
Really depends on the party. Most people I played with were very much not in this kind of play.
Really depends on the party. Most people I played with were very much not in this kind of play.Casters are always prepared. You do not want to negate one of the advantages they can have over martials, right ?Casters are fine with the martials prepared with their weapons. They don't care. They want smart martials who scout, position to intercept attackers, and operate like a seasoned veteran combat team preparing to battle enemies.
I've gathered this posting on these forums for a long time. I guess my group and I are an outlier. Oh well, I don't place much value on Quickdraw in 2nd edition. I like it in first edition as it was more versatile. It's too limited to be worth a feat in PF2.
I think (in regards to the usefulness of quick draw depending on the group) it is accurate to say that it depends on your group/GM.
I think a lot of groups probably run things as "you can have your weapons out unless your using your hands for something else/it would be inappropriate based on the social setting to do so".
So for those groups, something like quick draw (as it currently exists) isn't a great value. On top of that, the people that want a feat like quick draw the most (thrown weapon users) don't generally have that as an option (quick draw is class restricted) but even if you did have, being restricted to only a strike isn't fun either.
It basically forces a thrown weapon user to rely on the returning rune (because it goes back to your hand) or shurikens (because they have reload 0).
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Magi can do this. The feat spirit sheath allows you to draw your weapon and spellstrikeQuick Draw does synergize with the class abilities of the classes it's on, since they apply to basic Strikes.
Quick Draw is fine as is. Just give Iaijutsu specialists additional feats for drawing/sheathing techniques that have different use cases.
I don't care for Quick Draw as is. I liked it better in PF1 as a free action that you could incorporate into other types of attacks. I think a Magus should be able to Quick Draw and spell strike or a fighter Quick Draw and power attack.
Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking. Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.
For many classes quick draw is a downgrade as it means you quick draw and attack causing a MAP penalty for your better attacks.
In PF2 Quick Draw is a narrative feat more than a combat optimal feat.
Nice to know. Though I would have preferred Quick Draw as a General Feat usable by any class allow you to draw an item as a free action, then it would have useful to a variety of classes and wouldn't have taken up a class feat slot for something every adventurer might want to learn like Toughness or Fleet.
Quick Draw slaps.Why, though? Slaps are unarmed attacks.
Quick Draw Spiked Gauntlet Slaps?
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Nice to know. Though I would have preferred Quick Draw as a General Feat usable by any class allow you to draw an item as a free action, then it would have useful to a variety of classes and wouldn't have taken up a class feat slot for something every adventurer might want to learn like Toughness or Fleet.Magi can do this. The feat spirit sheath allows you to draw your weapon and spellstrikeQuick Draw does synergize with the class abilities of the classes it's on, since they apply to basic Strikes.
Quick Draw is fine as is. Just give Iaijutsu specialists additional feats for drawing/sheathing techniques that have different use cases.
I don't care for Quick Draw as is. I liked it better in PF1 as a free action that you could incorporate into other types of attacks. I think a Magus should be able to Quick Draw and spell strike or a fighter Quick Draw and power attack.
Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking. Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.
For many classes quick draw is a downgrade as it means you quick draw and attack causing a MAP penalty for your better attacks.
In PF2 Quick Draw is a narrative feat more than a combat optimal feat.
I guess it is a well-thought design decision. The existence of Spirit Sheath is IMO proof that they have guidelines against such a widely available powerful feat.
I guess it is a well-thought design decision. The existence of Spirit Sheath is IMO proof that they have guidelines against such a widely available powerful feat.Nice to know. Though I would have preferred Quick Draw as a General Feat usable by any class allow you to draw an item as a free action, then it would have useful to a variety of classes and wouldn't have taken up a class feat slot for something every adventurer might want to learn like Toughness or Fleet.Magi can do this. The feat spirit sheath allows you to draw your weapon and spellstrikeQuick Draw does synergize with the class abilities of the classes it's on, since they apply to basic Strikes.
Quick Draw is fine as is. Just give Iaijutsu specialists additional feats for drawing/sheathing techniques that have different use cases.
I don't care for Quick Draw as is. I liked it better in PF1 as a free action that you could incorporate into other types of attacks. I think a Magus should be able to Quick Draw and spell strike or a fighter Quick Draw and power attack.
Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking. Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.
For many classes quick draw is a downgrade as it means you quick draw and attack causing a MAP penalty for your better attacks.
In PF2 Quick Draw is a narrative feat more than a combat optimal feat.
I don't think it would be too powerful myself. It would be another desirable feat like Toughness or Fleet. As a general feat a caster could Quick draw a wand or a fighter a healing potion or something. It would make the game work smoother and make players enjoy the game more.
People tend to make this claim absent evidence. PF2 is a game so well balanced it's very hard to be "overpowered." They have multiple balance limiters in place and being able to draw something as a free action as a general feat would not disrupt the balance of the game.
I've only seen a few things that I would call "overpowered" within the context of PF2. The trip maneuver being the most obvious one as it is a catch all maneuver that operates as an action reducer, brings fliers out of the air, activates reaction attacks, and provides the flat-footed condition against ranged and martial attacks. It's easy to build up for any class and is automatic for certain classes. The Trip maneuver does too much and is too easy to access and make strong working against an often weak Reflex save.
You might be able to argue synesthesia is too strong for a similar reason as one spell that does too much and even 1 round on a failure is enough to obliterate most boss monsters. And synesthesia makes trip easier.
But a Quick Draw general feat would not have anywhere near the same impact on the game. It would make the game more entertaining and create another desirable General Feat.
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Even in live action film, the katana looks unbelievably awesome in use. Very different from European style blades. Very fast, elegant, and meant for that fast slashing style of attack.
That's 102.5% due to the fact that directors like Kurosawa understood fight choreography whereas even to this day Hollywood will give rando actors play swords and tell them to just swing the things around like 12 year old kids playing with foam nerf toys.
Find a real swordmaster from a European tradition and it will look just as awesome as one from any Asian tradition. The only difference is the guy in Asia can get a job on a film studio showing the actors how to move, and the guy in Europe just has a hobby that everyone else ignores - but he can't go to movies because he'll run out screaming at how badly done the fight scenes are.
Watch 'Shadiversity' on YouTube - who's (I'm guessing) not a sword master, but he does know swords enough that it often seems like he has PTSD from how badly represented his hobby is on film.
You see one of these duels in The Seven Samurai. It was a great scene to film that shows off the katana technique.
Katanas should gets some kind of initiative bonus due to the speed you are trained to draw and cut with them. It is an interesting and extraordinary technique tied to the sword's construction.
That's almost the definition of an 'anime bonus'. You're speaking for an initiative bonus based on the rule of cool from a film director's understanding of using good fight choreography to tell a story.
Kurosawa is largely regarded, and rightly so, as the best filmmaker in history. And most people who copy him (almost every action genre director since regardless of what part of the planet they're on) have been pale shadows of his understanding of how to use film to tell a story in few words and vital motions.
Swedish director Ingmar Bergman was likely his only equal. Watch the Seventh Seal.
No one has ever managed to do what those two guys could deliver.
If Kurosawa had a made a movie about people fighting duels using plastic straws we'd all think the plastic straw was the most powerful weapon in history...
If Kurosawa and Bergman had actually ever met in person and made a movie together - few of us would have survived watching it, but we'd meet our end on good terms.
Even in live action film, the katana looks unbelievably awesome in use. Very different from European style blades. Very fast, elegant, and meant for that fast slashing style of attack.That's 102.5% due to the fact that directors like Kurosawa understood fight choreography whereas even to this day Hollywood will give rando actors play swords and tell them to just swing the things around like 12 year old kids playing with foam nerf toys.
Find a real swordmaster from a European tradition and it will look just as awesome as one from any Asian tradition. The only difference is the guy in Asia can get a job on a film studio showing the actors how to move, and the guy in Europe just has a hobby that everyone else ignores - but he can't go to movies because he'll run out screaming at how badly done the fight scenes are.
Watch 'Shadiversity' on YouTube - who's (I'm guessing) not a sword master, but he does know swords enough that it often seems like he has PTSD from how badly represented his hobby is on film.
You see one of these duels in The Seven Samurai. It was a great scene to film that shows off the katana technique.
Katanas should gets some kind of initiative bonus due to the speed you are trained to draw and cut with them. It is an interesting and extraordinary technique tied to the sword's construction.
That's almost the definition of an 'anime bonus'. You're speaking for an initiative bonus based on the rule of cool from a film director's understanding of using good fight choreography to tell a story.
Kurosawa is largely regarded, and rightly so, as the best filmmaker in history. And most people who copy him (almost every action genre director since regardless of what part of the planet they're on) have been pale shadows of his understanding of how to use film to tell a story in few words and vital motions.
Swedish director Ingmar Bergman was likely his only equal. Watch the Seventh Seal.
No one has ever...
I like European sword fighting as well. I have studied both and read books and general information on both.
Europe has a ton of swords for different uses whether the longsword, a utilitarian blade for battlefields, the fencing blades that were lighter and meant for dueling, and many other types of blades.
Japan had different types of blades as well like the Tachi and the No-daichi which were used more often on the battlefield.
The katana is Japan's standout sword with a very aggressive fighting style that looks amazingly cool.
I've seen tons of moves with European sword fighting and they don't fight the same as a katana wielder. Not that they are less effective, but perhaps less cinematic though some fencing battles look amazing.
This is not about realism. This is about wanting the fantasy version of the katana. Just like I like the fantasy version of full plate armor worn by knights.
PF is not a realistic game. PF2 is fantastical versions of weapons and armor, not realistic versions. The fantastical version of the katana would make it one of the most powerful swords in the game and should probably be advanced providing a bit more power than a standard blade.
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Watch 'Shadiversity' on YouTube - who's (I'm guessing) not a sword master, but he does know swords enough that it often seems like he has PTSD from how badly represented his hobby is on film.
well maybe don't watch that dude, the shad man here's a chud that pushes some fashy ideas on his channel as of late. i do agree that choreography and understanding weapons as fiction is important and that i've liked some of his videos in the past, but it's not worth supporting a bigot. surely there's a sword youtuber that isn't awful.
at least we got a jack saint video challenging the shad lad to a duel.
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Gosh, it's so weirdly hard to find people into medieval history who aren't, like, weird about it.
well maybe don't watch that dude, the shad man here's a chud that pushes some fashy ideas on his channel as of late. i do agree that choreography and understanding weapons as fiction is important and that i've liked some of his videos in the pastWatch 'Shadiversity' on YouTube - who's (I'm guessing) not a sword master, but he does know swords enough that it often seems like he has PTSD from how badly represented his hobby is on film.
Yeah. I've noticed his tone shifting.
But he's the only name I knew for someone who actually knows European swords. And in the past he's actively called out films for having such bad swordplay.
People have formed a very harsh opinion of European medieval weapons largely based on the extremely poor job Hollywood does. Pretty similar to how people think guns can be fired dual pistol / one handed while held in funny angles or sideways with 100% accuracy in rapid fire because of Hollywood.
Shad is also, if I remember right, the person who noted that swords about speed and agility, and bows are about strength - the opposite of tRPGs.
That noted, that same video was loaded with gender stereotypes where he said women are better than men with swords and the reverse was true for archery... so yeah - problematic tone.
The big lesson is to remember that we have gotten very used to judging weapons based on movies and other fiction media.
A lot of which is extremely poorly made.
People overestimate guns and katanas, and underestimate western fantasy weapons. And that's from our fiction...
The same directors that do such a horrible job with swordplay scenes in western movies love to do special camera angles and effects in gun scenes - which sadly are also done extremely poorly for how those weapons should work.
Kurosawa DOES show proper katana fighting - though enemies die too fast and cleanly, he showed realistic techniques. And he did it with amazing use of lighting, sound, set, and camera. All with no real special effects.
Its the same reason why Bruce Lee makes his fighting look so amazing and so powerful - good fight choreography and almost no special effects so you come away believing it.
Hollywood does an epic battle of some famous historical event - be it Spartans or Scottish Highlanders or even fantasy like Lord of the Rings to Princess Bride and no one is ever using the weapons right, the cameras are usually all over the place, and special effects are used in place of good pacing and realistic sounds. So it looks campy, the battle feel like "fantasy" rather than real, and people come away thinking the weapons were "obviously not that good"...
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it's not worth supporting a bigot.Can you please not call people bigots just because they have different views to you. That is unkind.
i like being unkind to bigots though. especially the mad lad shad, who is a raging homophobe, my favorite kind of bigot to cyberbully. feels good to say mean internet things about this guy to dissuade people from supporting a bigot, gonna make it a shad fad.
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I have watched some of Shad's youtube videos in the past and am disappointed to here news about homophobia on his behalf. I haven't watched any recent videos so I'm not familiar with this issue firsthand.
I did discover another channel (focused on East Asian weapons and techniques) that's pretty cool called Weaponism. It's a couple that actually goes and practices different styles/techniques learning from those who are already experienced in them and often tests the style they had already learned and trained in against to compare them. It's interesting and less armchair.
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Shad can be fully discounted from the conversation and not just because of his hard right homophobic and misogynist views. The guy is really just a crusader cosplayer with zero credentials.
He deserves ridicule for both.
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Really, people who get seriously into historical weapons always gave me bad vibes. You can kind of feel better about the ones who actually get into bladesmithing, because the art of bladesmithing is one that sort of cultivates patience, thoughfulness, and a general down-to-earth sensibility (the reason your blade cracked has nothing to do with whatever scapegoat the far right is picking right now, after all.)
But a lot of the talk about how awesome one sword was "in reality" seems irrelevant to me since most of the contexts we care about swords these days are unrealistic contexts like TTRPGs, video games, movies, etc. Since "in reality" lots and lots of stores can kill the person across from you very easily, and swordfighting historically was much more about "do not get hit" than anything else.
Realistically, nobody wins a knife fight, but someone probably loses. This is less fun than fiction.
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Skallagrim, Scholagladiatoria, and Tod's Workshop all seem to be pretty okay channels without the bad vibes Shad gives off.
Weapons aren't that far apart in PF2. Even a better katana would still be only slightly better like a falcata, not like weapons were in PF1 where they were way, way better.
In Pf2 critical specialization sets weapons apart more than individual stats. If you can knock someone prone on a crit with no check, then your weapon is awesome. If not, you fall in the wide average range.
Weapons aren't that far apart in PF2. Even a better katana would still be only slightly better like a falcata, not like weapons were in PF1 where they were way, way better.
In Pf2 critical specialization sets weapons apart more than individual stats. If you can knock someone prone on a crit with no check, then your weapon is awesome. If not, you fall in the wide average range.
Sounds like that won't be the case after the remaster.
I personally think Katana should be either finesse to fit the tropes better or have a little more damage
but d6 is workable for most things, the only damage dice I cant stand is d4
but damage dice certainly set weapons apart
I mean, the span from 2.5 to 6.5 average damage is not that much
but the span from 10 to 26 is certainly more notable
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Sounds like that won't be the case after the remaster.Weapons aren't that far apart in PF2. Even a better katana would still be only slightly better like a falcata, not like weapons were in PF1 where they were way, way better.
In Pf2 critical specialization sets weapons apart more than individual stats. If you can knock someone prone on a crit with no check, then your weapon is awesome. If not, you fall in the wide average range.
Thank goodness. The optimizer and the storyteller in me were at odds when making a martial and not taking a hammer or flail. I want to be able to use other weapons and not feel like I'm passing up too good an option. Prone on a critical hit with no save and no check was far too good an option to pass up.
Now maybe I can use an axe or sword and not feel like I'm using some lesser weapon.
Sounds like that won't be the case after the remaster.Weapons aren't that far apart in PF2. Even a better katana would still be only slightly better like a falcata, not like weapons were in PF1 where they were way, way better.
In Pf2 critical specialization sets weapons apart more than individual stats. If you can knock someone prone on a crit with no check, then your weapon is awesome. If not, you fall in the wide average range.
Thank goodness. The optimizer and the storyteller in me were at odds when making a martial and not taking a hammer or flail. I want to be able to use other weapons and not feel like I'm passing up too good an option. Prone on a critical hit with no save and no check was far too good an option to pass up.
Now maybe I can use an axe or sword and not feel like I'm using some lesser weapon.
The classic greatsword will still be in a bad position, as versatile slash/pierce is only hypothetically more useful than just plain slashing due to an extremely tiny number of enemies being weaker to pierce than slash damage and the gimmicky scenario of pierce weapons not taking penalties for fighting underwater. Bastard sword is generally better even for dedicated two hand builds since the need to use a thing in one hand for a moment is going to come up much more often, and greataxe's sweep is at least a trait that might come up. But asidw from that, the hammer/flail nerf is a long time coming. Bludgeoning damage is already an excellent damage type, they didn't also need fighters pulling off a stunlock on a 15.
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heck of a lot of discussion for a post that amounts to
"why isnt my anime flare being given the strongest mechanical option"
to the OP, because it was given more traits to balance out, its 1d6 because its a bit more finesse of a weapon than alongsword or bastard sword, then they gave it bigger crits, wich is quite nice for certain classes. like fighter.
heck of a lot of discussion for a post that amounts to
"why isnt my anime flare being given the strongest mechanical option"
to the OP, because it was given more traits to balance out, its 1d6 because its a bit more finesse of a weapon than alongsword or bastard sword, then they gave it bigger crits, wich is quite nice for certain classes. like fighter.
Well, it lacks the finesse trait, but idk... We are talking about a two handed sword the length of a one handed sword but still having the weight of a two handed sword. It's not especially agile compared to any other sword