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Katanas are much more average than that. Much, much more average than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 486,000 Yen (that's about $4,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 hours now. I can now cut meat with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend anything up to three months working on a single katana and fold it up to sixteen times to produce adequate blades known to mankind.
Katanas are not quite as sharp as European swords, nor as hard for that matter. It's entirely possible that anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through. I'm pretty sure a katana could eventually bisect a man with simple horizontal slashes.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too far away from each other. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because they were a sign of rank.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply a sword that the world has seen, and thus, require stats in the P2e system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
Price: 2 gp; Damage: 1d6 S; Bulk: 1; Hands: 1; Category: Martial; Group: Sword
Traits: Deadly d8, Two-Hand 1d10, Uncommon, Versatile PNow that seems a lot representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do adequate damage in P2e, see my stat block.
You are making me Morb up
on a tangent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgb2HNrTnR0
a very interesting comparison that is also about the katana and a few properties of them compared to western swords
Tachi needs a statblock too
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Yeah ppl name one battle between Samurai and European Knights where Euro won. Name one. I'll wait U CANT LMAO LOSERS
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Horsebowmen beat all (except sea storms I guess), so the shortbow should do at least 1d20 when fired from horseback.
Horsebowmen beat all (except sea storms I guess), so the shortbow should do at least 1d20 when fired from horseback.
Terrible idea not necessarily related to horsebowmen: d20 damage die weapon, but it rolls a d12 to hit.
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I mean, the thing about the Japanese master bladesmiths is that Japan is not a place on earth that is rich in high quality ore. But much like in cooking, "really knowing what you're doing" can get good results out of worse materials. So the whole damascus thing was about "we don't have enough high carbon hardenable steel to make blades out of, so we'll cut it with low carbon soft steel in a way that leaves the entire edge of the blade made out of hardened steel. The most simple way to do this is to basically make a sandwich with hardenable steel between two slices of soft steel, then grind away the soft steel on either side of the edge (this is the "San mai" technique, which means "three flat things.")
If you happened to live somewhere where high carbon steel was abundant, you didn't need to do any of this. You were probably under pressure to "make more blades, and make them faster" more than you were to maximize what you could get out of your materials.
The other thing is that since Japan wasn't rich in steel, metal armor was a lot rarer. So you were designing your blades for different things.
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Medieval Europe was also more industrialized than people think. They used water power where ever they could. Giant water-powered trip hammers were used in some metal work, such as blades and armor. China had similar technology, but I don't know how widespread it was there.
Also, by the 16th century, Japan was importing European armor.
Medieval Europe was also more industrialized than people think. They used water power where ever they could. Giant water-powered trip hammers were used in some metal work, such as blades and armor. China had similar technology, but I don't know how widespread it was there.
Also, by the 16th century, Japan was importing European armor.
The katana was the Japanese equivalent of a dueling blade. It wasn't great for mass warfare. It was made to cut flesh, not armor and such. Quick and efficient killing between dueling warriors or lightly armored warriors.
Draw fast, strike fast, kill fast.
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Medieval Europe was also more industrialized than people think. They used water power where ever they could. Giant water-powered trip hammers were used in some metal work, such as blades and armor. China had similar technology, but I don't know how widespread it was there.
Also, by the 16th century, Japan was importing European armor.
The katana was the Japanese equivalent of a dueling blade. It wasn't great for mass warfare. It was made to cut flesh, not armor and such. Quick and efficient killing between dueling warriors or lightly armored warriors.
Draw fast, strike fast, kill fast.
I wonder why I was taught strikes with the katana that aimed at slicing between layers of armor.
I wonder why I was taught strikes with the katana that aimed at slicing between layers of armor.
Doctrine will always follow what is readily available for warfare. If one's blades cannot do massive trauma by weight, one will need a new way to apply lethal damage.
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All irrelevant, katanas cannot 'end' a foe 'rightly' and are thus the inferior weapon in the face of that secret technique.
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All irrelevant, katanas cannot 'end' a foe 'rightly' and are thus the inferior weapon in the face of that secret technique.
This is the real test of a sword! THIS GUY KNOWS!
This is simply untrue. And pretty much all swords with curving edges are great for slicing and dicing flesh. A katana is not intrinsically superior to a sabre/scimitar anymore than a bastard sword is intrinsically better than a cut and thrust sword (aka, broadsword/longsword).Medieval Europe was also more industrialized than people think. They used water power where ever they could. Giant water-powered trip hammers were used in some metal work, such as blades and armor. China had similar technology, but I don't know how widespread it was there.
Also, by the 16th century, Japan was importing European armor.
The katana was the Japanese equivalent of a dueling blade. It wasn't great for mass warfare. It was made to cut flesh, not armor and such. Quick and efficient killing between dueling warriors or lightly armored warriors.
Draw fast, strike fast, kill fast.
Different swords are built for different purposes. Their techniques are different.
The katana was often built as a lighter and faster blade depending on who it was made for.
Just as different European swords were build for different purposes like many the longswords being built as stabbing weapons with a portion of the blade made for grabbing to use it almost like a spear.
The katana evolved over time too and had different types built. Some fast for those that wanted to practice something like Iajutsu to a heavier, longer katana type used in heavier combat or beheadings.
Blade design evolved over time as did technique. The sword has long history in nearly every culture that has swords including the katana. They are not static.
The height of the katana is the samurai period when they were worn as status symbols in Japanese society and often designed for dueling between the samurai. That's why in a lot of movies or writings on Japanese warfare, you see the Japanese warrior using spears or polearms or other larger weapons in mass warfare with the katana reserved for up close and personal work or dueling.
European swords were designed more for day to day fighting. Their fighting techniques with the blade were often different than the katana. A European blade was very utilitarian and had interesting use techniques you can read about in European fighting manuals of that time.
The katana is a very cool looking sword. I like it being a top end sword purely for this reason. It's an iconic blade. I think we all mostly know a blade is a blade, but this is fantasy so you want the fantasy version of the katana with all its mystique and supposedly incredible power to kill.
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To train with the sword, first master sweeping. When you have mastered sweeping, you must master the way of drawing water. Once you have learned how to draw water, you must split wood. Once you have split wood, you must learn the arts of finding the fine herbs in the forest, the arts of writing, the arts of paper making, and poetry writing. You must become familiar with the awl and the pen in equal measure. When you have mastered all these things you must master building a house. Once your house is built, you have no further need for a sword, since it is an ugly piece of metal and its adherents idiots.
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To train with the sword, first master sweeping. When you have mastered sweeping, you must master the way of drawing water. Once you have learned how to draw water, you must split wood. Once you have split wood, you must learn the arts of finding the fine herbs in the forest, the arts of writing, the arts of paper making, and poetry writing. You must become familiar with the awl and the pen in equal measure. When you have mastered all these things you must master building a house. Once your house is built, you have no further need for a sword, since it is an ugly piece of metal and its adherents idiots.
Oh, hey, the grinding path to space samurai Jedi from a long-defunct MMORPG!
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Oh, hey, the grinding path tospace samuraiJedi from a long-defunct MMORPG!
An in the wild Galaxies reference? Must be my lucky day.
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Same logic could be used for all swords. So then all swords get finesse.
That's actually correct for a lot of bladed weapons. Just as much - bows should not be about dex at all, but strength. Possibly not just as a damage mod but also for accuracy.
Most of us 'keyboard warriors' would likely be unable to pull back a real English Longbow, and if we did manage the effort, our limbs would be wobbling with the effort throwing our aim off. For those of us that do have upper body strength - it then becomes not about perception. Aiming carefully while pulling with a strain equivalent to lifting over 100 lbs.
A sword on the other hand, about speed and bodily agility a lot more than it is about raw strength. Being light and quick can be everything.
But once we start going down this path, we start wanting a game system like some of those crazy ones in the 80s with 37 different stats and weapons all being based on different ones... and things just get silly.
That said... I agree with those in the thread that feel a Katana should NOT get an 'anime boost' to the damage. :)
- If you want that, take intimidation and make demoralize checks before every attack define as giving a monologue that finishes with the camera zooming in on your eye or teeth as there's a 'star' effect on the screen from the glint of you coolness.
But the rest of us will just chuckle and think of memes when your turn comes up.
I was thinking less an anime boost and more of a Zatoichi or Yojimbo damage boost where you can quickdraw it and slice down a ton of people. That's fun to watch.
Even in live action film, the katana looks unbelievably awesome in use. Very different from European style blades. Very fast, elegant, and meant for that fast slashing style of attack.
I was thinking less an anime boost and more of a Zatoichi or Yojimbo damage boost where you can quickdraw it and slice down a ton of people. That's fun to watch.
Even in live action film, the katana looks unbelievably awesome in use. Very different from European style blades. Very fast, elegant, and meant for that fast slashing style of attack.
Katanas always looked less elegant to me, and they don't feel as nice in the hand as European or even Chinese swords feel
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Personally, I like big swords because they go, like. clash! shing! clang! biff!
I like scenes with that fast cutting style of the katana. Fluid draw and cut, move and cut, the katana style of fighting is very aggressive incorporating defense into the attacking style the weapon is naturally built for. No extreme hilt. A strong, one-sided cutting blade with that slight curve meant to be quickly drawn and immediately brought to bear on your opponent.
European swords are cool too. Different style of fighting with a European style blade.
I've never seen a scene with the European style blade like you see in some of the samurai films where it's almost like a quickdraw contest with two samurai squaring off and the faster draw and cut will win. Some of those scenes look amazing.
You see one of these duels in The Seven Samurai. It was a great scene to film that shows off the katana technique.
Katanas should gets some kind of initiative bonus due to the speed you are trained to draw and cut with them. It is an interesting and extraordinary technique tied to the sword's construction.
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I was thinking less an anime boost and more of a Zatoichi or Yojimbo damage boost where you can quickdraw it and slice down a ton of people. That's fun to watch.
Even in live action film, the katana looks unbelievably awesome in use. Very different from European style blades. Very fast, elegant, and meant for that fast slashing style of attack.
European fencing swords are similar in that regard, except they are P rather than S.
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I like scenes with that fast cutting style of the katana. Fluid draw and cut, move and cut, the katana style of fighting is very aggressive incorporating defense into the attacking style the weapon is naturally built for. No extreme hilt. A strong, one-sided cutting blade with that slight curve meant to be quickly drawn and immediately brought to bear on your opponent.
European swords are cool too. Different style of fighting with a European style blade.
I've never seen a scene with the European style blade like you see in some of the samurai films where it's almost like a quickdraw contest with two samurai squaring off and the faster draw and cut will win. Some of those scenes look amazing.
You see one of these duels in The Seven Samurai. It was a great scene to film that shows off the katana technique.
Katanas should gets some kind of initiative bonus due to the speed you are trained to draw and cut with them. It is an interesting and extraordinary technique tied to the sword's construction.
It is a technique that requires specialized training to be really efficient. Would that make the katana an Advanced weapon ?
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Let me state a note in that thought:
Every weapon should have 3 profiles
One for people trained in simple weapons, one for Martial, one for advanced
Everyone can Pick up a sword and Swing it, it requires expertise to make use of all of it's Potential and many other weapons are both that different
See the humble peasent militia vs the Martial Artist with a spear
So everyone can Pick up every weapon and higher proficiency unlocks more traits and maybe increases damage
I might homebrew that in detail
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It is a technique that requires specialized training to be really efficient. Would that make the katana an Advanced weapon ?I like scenes with that fast cutting style of the katana. Fluid draw and cut, move and cut, the katana style of fighting is very aggressive incorporating defense into the attacking style the weapon is naturally built for. No extreme hilt. A strong, one-sided cutting blade with that slight curve meant to be quickly drawn and immediately brought to bear on your opponent.
European swords are cool too. Different style of fighting with a European style blade.
I've never seen a scene with the European style blade like you see in some of the samurai films where it's almost like a quickdraw contest with two samurai squaring off and the faster draw and cut will win. Some of those scenes look amazing.
You see one of these duels in The Seven Samurai. It was a great scene to film that shows off the katana technique.
Katanas should gets some kind of initiative bonus due to the speed you are trained to draw and cut with them. It is an interesting and extraordinary technique tied to the sword's construction.
I would make it Advanced.
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I like scenes with that fast cutting style of the katana. Fluid draw and cut, move and cut, the katana style of fighting is very aggressive incorporating defense into the attacking style the weapon is naturally built for. No extreme hilt. A strong, one-sided cutting blade with that slight curve meant to be quickly drawn and immediately brought to bear on your opponent.
European swords are cool too. Different style of fighting with a European style blade.
I've never seen a scene with the European style blade like you see in some of the samurai films where it's almost like a quickdraw contest with two samurai squaring off and the faster draw and cut will win. Some of those scenes look amazing.
You see one of these duels in The Seven Samurai. It was a great scene to film that shows off the katana technique.
Katanas should gets some kind of initiative bonus due to the speed you are trained to draw and cut with them. It is an interesting and extraordinary technique tied to the sword's construction.
By that logic anyone carrying a draws and ready weapon should also get an initiative bonus since they are sidestepping the need for a special drawing technique and already have their weapon to hand.
Alternatively, find a way to get the Quick Draw feat. In 2e it is a single action to draw and attack with a weapon. A much better method of representing the technique you're describing.
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Quick Draw is okay but kind of too straight forward to represent everything within that concept space.
Some sort of archetype that starts with quick draw but adds upgrade paths too it along with other options might be kinda cool, though not exactly in scope for this thread.
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Quick Draw is okay but kind of too straight forward to represent everything within that concept space.
Some sort of archetype that starts with quick draw but adds upgrade paths too it along with other options might be kinda cool, though not exactly in scope for this thread.
Quick draw not great in PF2. If it were a free action draw, it would work a lot better with class abilities and feats.
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Quick Draw slaps.
I will say I don't like this version of quickdraw. Draw and strike for 1 action, is outright worse than the potential of draw for no action (and do nothing else).
It forces you to make a basic strike, which in 90% of cases is probably not what one would prefer to do.
It is however better than spending an action (by itself) to draw your weapon, so in that context it's better than nothing.
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Yeah, I also don't like that Quick Draw is expressly only for weapons, and not for other items, like potions or scrolls (though at least the latter I can understand not permitting for merely an action), or even for items that are stowed in a backpack that you might need to take out.
It works even less in my games as I house ruled that you could draw a weapon while moving. It's pretty rare that people have to draw and strike anyway and even more rare in my games.
Quick draw should supplement class abilities, not be some draw and strike ability interfering with the use of class abilities in my opinion as it was in PF1.
I don't like people having to spend actions to draw, adjust number of hands on a weapon, and things I feel should be a free action. Actions are roughly 2 seconds and trained warriors do not have spend that long to adjust the number of hands on a weapon they are highly trained in. And there is not verisimilitude argument or bows would take a whole lot longer to operate effectively than they do.
It's a rule tossed on giving an action tax because someone in Paizo design felt like it. It wastes time in combat and makes players feel a drag on their character to bring their weapons into play.
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If you want to model an iajutsu duelist samurai in PF2, the Quick Draw feat is only one part of it. The "stare-down" at the start of the duel can be modeled as using Intimidation to demoralize with Intimidating Glare.
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Most rules like this are added for balance purposes, not "because some designer felt like it". In this case, many weapons and abilities would operate quite differently if you changed the action economy of their usage. Versatile weapons and throwing weapons are two very simple examples. Hand economy is kind of a big deal in PF2.
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If you spent big bucks on a sword 'folded a million times' then you got played.
what if I want a sword with a blade that's literally wider than the observable universe
you know, like the whole thing that happens if you fold a sheet of paper enough times
One guy made a million layer damascus knife. It's actually not that hard to do, the process is that you stack a number of different materials, say 5, forge weld them together, draw them out, cut it into pieces (say 5), stack them and now you have 25 layers. Do this again and you have 125 layers. Do this again and you have 625 layers. etc.
So you can see how anybody can get a big number from a fairly simple process. There's just no real need to cut and restack like 15 times.
Most rules like this are added for balance purposes, not "because some designer felt like it". In this case, many weapons and abilities would operate quite differently if you changed the action economy of their usage. Versatile weapons and throwing weapons are two very simple examples. Hand economy is kind of a big deal in PF2.
It isn't a big deal. It's an unnecessary time drag on rounds that makes the game less entertaining.
I changed the way it works when I saw how much of a drag on combat it was with no positive or balance effect worth incorporating into the game. The rule created unnecessary minutiae that a player needed to track from round to round as to hand placement.
No one misses it. It provided no verisimilitude. I think it is provably a bad design choice for PF2.
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Quick Draw does synergize with the class abilities of the classes it's on, since they apply to basic Strikes.
Quick Draw is fine as is. Just give Iaijutsu specialists additional feats for drawing/sheathing techniques that have different use cases.
I don't care for Quick Draw as is. I liked it better in PF1 as a free action that you could incorporate into other types of attacks. I think a Magus should be able to Quick Draw and spell strike or a fighter Quick Draw and power attack.
Quick draw as it is in PF2 is a limited use ability not worth taking. Most people enter combat with their weapons prepared. So it rarely proves useful.
For many classes quick draw is a downgrade as it means you quick draw and attack causing a MAP penalty for your better attacks.
In PF2 Quick Draw is a narrative feat more than a combat optimal feat.
One guy made a million layer damascus knife. It's actually not that hard to do, the process is that you stack a number of different materials, say 5, forge weld them together, draw them out, cut it into pieces (say 5), stack them and now you have 25 layers. Do this again and you have 125 layers. Do this again and you have 625 layers. etc.
So you can see how anybody can get a big number from a fairly simple process. There's just no real need to cut and restack like 15 times.
I can agree with this, and if anything, it can cause even more problems with the blade's structural integrity, since it introduces more opportunities for the welds to fail and therefore create weakspots, delaminations, cold shuts, etc. inside the blade.
When going for a decorative look, going anything over, say, 250 layers of metal, has diminishing returns. You might still have a pattern, but it becomes less and less of a stark contrast the more layers you add, since the layers are so compressed that they're basically all melded together into one.
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IM(ns)HO, Quick Draw should simply be a Free Action, "interact to draw a worn item."