I like to learn systems by building characters, so far I've done a blaster sorc, a bones oracle, a controller/blaster style druid and a summoner using the anger phantom.
Generally my tastes lean heavily away from martial characters (as you may have noticed) but I feel like it'd be useful to make at least one and so far I've felt totally uninspired.
for PF1 the only full bab characters I ever created were, a shield champion brawler that definitely wasn't just captain America. An ooze morph shifter, a fiend flesh shifter, a kasatha unchained monk and a human snake bite striker/devoted muse (dedicated to fighting with war fans lol). I think the common theme was, overly complicated characters that had a lot of moving parts, for what was probably worse return than just playing a barbarian or whatever lol.
Might sound like a fair few but thats 5 out of 35 odd characters I made in the system. I did make the odd martial ish character with the 3/4 BAB classes, like an archer inquisitor and a fencing investigator.
But generally I lean towards blasting, debuffing, buffing, controlling or weird utility in my character creation.
So my question is, within PF2 what sort of character creation direction do you think might suit me?
Bow magus is a Swiss army knife with the best damage potential the system offers coupled with a few high level spell slots that can be used for buffs, debuffs and/or control.
Fighter is fighter.
Monk has the suffocation cheese setup if that's your thing.
Snarecrafter setups are phenomenal late game boss killers with maze support.
Ironically, because of things like athletics (scales better and faster than caster DC), phantasmal doorknob spellheart, crit spec (bow and hammer/flail), bola shot, debilitating shot, stunning snare, etc, etc, martials (mostly fighter) are actually better at inflicting the better non-numerical conditions than casters could ever dream of (and even that is only because saveless dirge and synesthesia exist). While casters are dealing with saves or incapacitation, an optimized party can trivially push martials high enough to reliably inflict blind, slow/stun, and prone over and over.
Do you mind if I suggest an archetype instead of a class? I've been having a ton of fun with the Wrestler archetype (lots of moving parts to decide how to grab and debuff an enemy based on what you are fighting). It works particularly nicely with Fighter (for the feats that require a sequence of attacks), Monk and Barbarian. I highly recommend you look into that.
Animal instinct sounds like a fun route too go down I might look into that.
The magus has never fully appealed to me I must admit.
Trapper ranger sounds interesting I’ll look into that.
Im totally open to archetypes, although the fantasy of the wrestler in particular doesn’t super appeal to me
A free-hand fighter might be worth considering. They can do the debuffing and controlling thing with athletics maneuvers, having a hand free means you can support allies with battle medicine, and you still have the ability to pile on damage when needed with the fighter's accuracy (using a two-hand weapon like a bastard sword or earth breaker in combination with the dual-handed assault feat lets you deal 2-handed weapon damage while keeping your hand free).
I like to learn systems by building characters, so far I've done a blaster sorc, a bones oracle, a controller/blaster style druid and a summoner using the anger phantom.
Generally my tastes lean heavily away from martial characters (as you may have noticed) but I feel like it'd be useful to make at least one and so far I've felt totally uninspired.
...
But generally I lean towards blasting, debuffing, buffing, controlling or weird utility in my character creation.
So my question is, within PF2 what sort of character creation direction do you think might suit me?
One option might be a thaumaturge; possibly with the weapon and wand implements (or wand and weapon), plus the blessed one archetype. Minor blasting with the wand, healing/buffing with blessed one feats, and a bunch of "weird utility" from the thaumaturge chassis.
For a more heavily martial type of character, a half-orc or orc gunslinger taking Orc Weapon Familiarity to allow proficiency with a barricade buster as a martial weapon; possibly with Iron Fists (via Ancestral Paragon) and Bloody Blows to give a decent melee option without needing to drop the gun or draw another weapon (as long as you invest in handwraps of mighty blows). Possibly taking Munitions Crafter, Inventor Dedication/Brilliant Crafter (auto-increasing Crafting proficiency), and Munitions Machinist to give the character a ready supply of alchemical ammunition; or Alchemist Dedication/Quick Alchemy, Expert Alchemy, and Master Alchemy if you want more than ammunition and don't mind using skill increases on Crafting (or even add Inventor Dedication/Brilliant Crafter in somehow, possibly via Multitalented with a human/half-orc). Barricade buster is a bit range-limited, however, so it might not suit some play-styles.
Animal instinct sounds like a fun route too go down I might look into that.
The magus has never fully appealed to me I must admit.
Trapper ranger sounds interesting I’ll look into that.
Im totally open to archetypes, although the fantasy of the wrestler in particular doesn’t super appeal to me
If you like morphing then the animal barbarian with wrestler archetype is bonesmashingly good and super fun.
If you would like a magicky charachter without being a caster or a magus, the thaumaturge covers it incredibly well
It may not be exactly what you want (or expect) but a fighter with a 2 handed weapon can bring a surprising amount of debuff and battlefield control with things like Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, Combat Grab, Dazing Blow, Shatter Defenses, and Intimidating Strike.
Grab the Marshall archetype and you can even do some buffing.
Bow magus is a Swiss army knife with the best damage potential the system offers coupled with a few high level spell slots that can be used for buffs, debuffs and/or control.
Fighter is fighter.
Monk has the suffocation cheese setup if that's your thing.
Snarecrafter setups are phenomenal late game boss killers with maze support.
Ironically, because of things like athletics (scales better and faster than caster DC), phantasmal doorknob spellheart, crit spec (bow and hammer/flail), bola shot, debilitating shot, stunning snare, etc, etc, martials (mostly fighter) are actually better at inflicting the better non-numerical conditions than casters could ever dream of (and even that is only because saveless dirge and synesthesia exist). While casters are dealing with saves or incapacitation, an optimized party can trivially push martials high enough to reliably inflict blind, slow/stun, and prone over and over.
Greetings friend,
I'm interested in this suffocation cheese, how does it work?
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Greetings friend,
I'm interested in this suffocation cheese, how does it work?
Step 1: get both the mask of uncanny breath and wand of choking mist.
Step 2: become quickened
Step 3: start your turn in melee reach of your target
Combo: quickened strike, mask reaction unconscious, cast from wand
An unconscious opponent cannot hold their breath (logically anyway) and so immediately begins suffocating which prevents waking back up from the mask reaction. As they are no longer getting up, you're free to beat them to death without reprisal.
Angry upvote
Greetings friend,
I'm interested in this suffocation cheese, how does it work?
Step 1: get both the mask of uncanny breath and wand of choking mist.
Step 2: become quickened
Step 3: start your turn in melee reach of your target
Combo: quickened strike, mask reaction unconscious, cast from wand
An unconscious opponent cannot hold their breath (logically anyway) and so immediately begins suffocating which prevents waking back up from the mask reaction. As they are no longer getting up, you're free to beat them to death without reprisal.
It works, but not in any particularly overpowered way.
Suffocating characters have probably 3 rounds without breathing to do anything assuming they have at least a +1 con bonus. That is typically long enough. After that they get rolls. The can't recover from unconciousness rider is after running out of air. I guess where I am differen from you is I'm saying that holding your breath is not something you have to do, or an action you have to take. It is just automatic.
None of the usually reasons to wake up from unconciousness are stopped.
Hitting an unconcious character (with positive hit points left) wakes them up.
Athletics skill plus a guisarme equals twenty-four squares of trippiness. Even a Swashbuckler could get in on this, especially a Gymnast.
Swashbucklers and Champions have other support options available to them, albeit a bit more complex. You do need to mind your positioning, as with few exceptions their nastiest abilities are limited to their melee reach.
Or you could just go Monk, Ranger, or Fighter and use arrows to cast Inflict Arrow Wounds on characters you don't like.
After doing a bit of research of my own, I think I'm leaning towards an animal instinct Barbarian, going down the stag line.
I've always found Stag's pretty special and one of my shifter characters also relied on them. The charging line of feats seems like a fun direction to go from there, too.
Are there any obvious problems with that I'm not seeing, or obvious synergies I should see? :)
The Stag instinct is pretty strong, since their antlers attack has the grapple trait and will eventually get reach. Grappling will be a great way for you to control where your enemies move, so looking for Barbarian feats that can work with that is a good idea.
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24?
I see 9 ( base reach + the character space in case of tiny creatures) + 12 ( 10 reach excluding diagonals that are 15 feet because consecutive).
Reach weapons are a specific exception to the two diagonals rule.
Unlike with measuring most distances, 10-foot reach can reach 2 squares diagonally. Reach greater than 10 feet is measured normally; 20-foot reach can reach 3 squares diagonally, 30-foot reach can reach 4, and so on.
Granted, it'd be nice if it were bundled with the Reach property description, but it's the rules since 1E.
(Edit: clarified source)
How about a kobold dragon barbarian? Take the dragon's rage breath feat and kobold breath feat. Now, you have two distinct AoE cones you can spam at least once per fight.
This might feel like it retreads your blast builds. But it presents a distinct change in mindsets.
Most blasters avoid cones, since you have to get in close and you have to avoid getting allies caught in the blast. However, cones are great for tanks- you are sturdy enough to not worry about the front line, and since you are in front it is hard for allies to get in your way (At least in the turn or two it takes to blast).
You can freely blast with everything you have, and then you don't have to worry about cleaning up since still have powerful melee.
You would also have room for chrarisma for intimidation and face skills. You can take the pride of a dragonblooded kobold and sing your own praises to the world.
How about a kobold dragon barbarian? Take the dragon's rage breath feat and kobold breath feat. Now, you have two distinct AoE cones you can spam at least once per fight.
Why stop there? I made a Kobold dragon barbarian that took Dragon Disciple! 3 breathes!!!
Most blasters avoid cones, since you have to get in close and you have to avoid getting allies caught in the blast.
Well, you take 1 60-foot line, 1 30-foot cone and one 10-foot burst within 30 feet with different damage types so you can pick the best placement and damage type for the situation.
How about a kobold dragon barbarian? Take the dragon's rage breath feat and kobold breath feat. Now, you have two distinct AoE cones you can spam at least once per fight.Why stop there? I made a Kobold dragon barbarian that took Dragon Disciple! 3 breathes!!!
Most blasters avoid cones, since you have to get in close and you have to avoid getting allies caught in the blast.Well, you take 1 60-foot line, 1 30-foot cone and one 10-foot burst within 30 feet with different damage types so you can pick the best placement and damage type for the situation.
Yeah, but everyone I've ever seen has placed burning hands as their "until I can get fireball" spell, even though they are similar in terms of damage. Bursts are valued because you can drop it on the other side of the battlefield. Barbarians are just fine dropping themselves on that end of the battlefield.
I think the dragon disciple blast might be slightly less useful since you need a specific resource to use it. It is useful since it does give you the option for three blasts in a fight.
The silliest part? Unless I am misreading things, dragon disciple only makes sorcerers match the element of their dragon disciple breath with their bloodline. So you could be a while kobold (ice) with red dragon instinct (fire) that is a disciple to a blue dragon (electricity). And each of these are associated with a resistance too.
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Yeah, but everyone I've ever seen has placed burning hands as their "until I can get fireball" spell, even though they are similar in terms of damage. Bursts are valued because you can drop it on the other side of the battlefield. Barbarians are just fine dropping themselves on that end of the battlefield.
Yep, that's why I went line with kobold, as the line is easier to aim around friendlies, especially if you're touching bases.
I think the dragon disciple blast might be slightly less useful since you need a specific resource to use it. It is useful since it does give you the option for three blasts in a fight.
It takes a while, but you can upgrade it to 1 per 1d4 rounds instead of needing focus.
The silliest part? Unless I am misreading things, dragon disciple only makes sorcerers match the element of their dragon disciple breath with their bloodline. So you could be a while kobold (ice) with red dragon instinct (fire) that is a disciple to a blue dragon (electricity). And each of these are associated with a resistance too.
Yep. I went kobold/brass [fire, line], Barbarian/cloud [lightning, cone] and disciple/sea [bludgeoning, burst]. I picked bludgeoning for the resistance. You can end up with resistance 3+Con vs piercing/lightning, 1/2 level vs fire [full level vs fire dragon breath], and 3+1/2 level bludgeoning. You also get Scales of the Dragon for unarmored fun.
It seems to me that the Dragon Disciple breath is way behind in DC as it uses Arcane DC. The other two use the Barbarian class DC, which is better.
After doing a bit of research of my own, I think I'm leaning towards an animal instinct Barbarian, going down the stag line.
I've always found Stag's pretty special and one of my shifter characters also relied on them. The charging line of feats seems like a fun direction to go from there, too.
Are there any obvious problems with that I'm not seeing, or obvious synergies I should see? :)
yeah, that is pretty much the meta. Grab the wrestler archetype and go nuts on them suplexes
It seems to me that the Dragon Disciple breath is way behind in DC as it uses Arcane DC. The other two use the Barbarian class DC, which is better.
The rub is that it's no clear what the DC is: you can't say it's arcane, as wyrmblessed sorcerers also get the focus spell and they are divine so there are dragon breath sorcerer bloodline spell of multiple traditions...
IMO, since it's an archetype without a clear DC given in it, using class DC is a good default as it doesn't depend on a class that's not directly related.
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But generally I lean towards blasting, debuffing, buffing, controlling or weird utility in my character creation.
So my question is, within PF2 what sort of character creation direction do you think might suit me?
Alchemist. “Blasting” (AoE damage) from bombs. Ability to create tailor made bombs to the unique situation to exploit weaknesses and debuff enemies either by the bombs default effect or the feat Debilitating Bombs.
Buffing in the form of Mutagens and Foods/Tonics as well as the ability to heal. Situational utility buffs such as buffing crafting or face skills or simply effective combat buffs. Buffs to perception or the ability to see invisible creatures easier or simply not get hit as much.
I don’t know of too many controlling stuff from alchemist. I suppose depends on what you mean. I don’t think they have hard CC but they can to strength and trip or grapple and I think some bombs have soft CC like Tanglefoot slowing and there may be options to create difficult terrain.
They are the class of weird utility. Look into the PubChem Guide for all the items. Tons of strange niche items waiting to the right moment to be used.
It’s kind of like being a martial wizard and your formula book is your spell book and your infused reagents are your spell slots.
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Might I suggest a Champion/Paladin of Shelyn, whose favored weapon is the glaive? a reach weapon. With Retributive Strike and Ranged Reprisal you get a _lot_ of use out of your reactions.
Then, since a Champion ought to have a 14+ charisma, you take in the Sorcerer dedication. Take any bloodline you like, but start with Shield as one of your cantrips. Then you get two actions, and a Shield cantrip per turn.
If you want more of a magic feel, take the Spellcasting feat at fourth level and look for utility spells, or one action spells.