Ascendant can work, especially if it chose to go all in on being the mystically trained warrior angle. And sounds a bit to close to the term uses for mortals who ascend into godhood via the Starstone.
Feels a bit too grand if it was also good for just plain martial artist. But that wouldn't be too much of a problem, especially if stuff like martial artist and wrestler archetypes continue to exist.
Yes. Would like monk to be less orientalist too, which the name plays a part in. Just the name alone is less offensive than with barbarian, admittedly.Monk is a European term. The class feature is very orientalist. Many religions have an equivalent to monks (a member of a religious order that lives in a monastery). While Shaolin monks practiced kung fu, European monks copied books and did Gregorian chants. So the current monk class doesn't need a new name. It needs a name of a god or religion added to it.
If the monk class were more fully developed, Monks could have a Doctrine like clerics, and monks of each religion having different features and abilities defined by their god.
The other direction to take the current monk class is to change the name and treat it as a martial artist, not connected to a religion or god.
I would rather not have monks be made a religious class
If I wanted to play a religious character I’d choose cleric
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It should be 'brawler'. It's 'Monk' because of the 1970s TV Show 'Kung Fu'. Actual Buddhist Monks are no more brawlers than Catholic Monks are...
That's not really the case: monk showed up in 1975 in the Blackmoor supplement for D&D. *digs into collection and pulls it out* They were "(Order of Monastic Martial Arts), a sub-class of Clerics which also combines the general attributes of Thief and Fighting Man. Members of the Order seek both physical and mental superiority in a religious atmosphere." They had had abilities like Surprise, Opening Locks, Remove Traps, Listening, Climbing, fall without sustaining any damage, Move Silently/Hide in Shadows, speak with animals/plants and the like. This doesn't scream 'kung fu' IMO.
In his forward to Oriental Adventures (1985), written ten years after the production of Blackmoor, Gygax claimed that the monk character class was "inspired by Brian Blume and the book series called The Destroyer" *[adapted to film in Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins].
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I think they're silly names that don't convey what their classes are about. "Druid" sort of is, too, but I think the high fantasy genre has gotten so cozy with "druids = nature priest" that it's fine. "Monk" and "barbarian" should be changed. I don't know if they'll do it, but firmly cosign. "Berserker" is a great alternative!
EDIT: I don't have a lot of ideas for "monk", honestly. Mystic, ascendant, initiate, martial artist or adept? That's what I got.
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Yeah - sorry, renaming barbarians as beserkers sounds like a terrible idea. I’m not sure what you would be trying to accomplish with such a change.
I’m okay with keeping the barbarians.
EDIT: I don't have a lot of ideas for "monk", honestly. Mystic, ascendant, initiate, martial artist or adept? That's what I got.
Mystics is a family of NPS's/monsters that includes Adept, Cult Leader, Cultist, Demonologist, False Priest, Harrow Reader and Necromancer: "Those initiated into the hidden truths and forbidden secrets of the world are forever transformed—or so they claim. To the cynical, a mystic is nothing more than a charlatan or zealot. Others profess to sense an aura around such luminaries and treat them with reverence, lest they offend some harbinger of unspeakable doom." Not a good monk fit.
martial artist is an archetype. Not a good monk fit do to confusing name with existing material.
initiate is uses in multiple feats/archetypes like Pactbound Initiate, Implement Initiate, Domain Initiate, Greenwatch Initiate,
Hallowed Initiate, ect. Not a good monk fit do to confusing name with existing material.
That leaves ascendant: "rising in power or influence; ASTROLOGY (of a planet, zodiacal degree, or sign) just above the eastern horizon; ASTROLOGY the point on the ecliptic at which it intersects the eastern horizon at a particular time, typically that of a person's birth." Sounds better for a Harrow user or some kind of divination user IMO, or maybe some kind of CHA based influencer.
Maybe that's less offensive because it wasn't ever used as an insult or in a derogatory way?
That's generally how things work. People don't usually like when derogatory terms for their group are perpetuated ad nauseam by the dominant culture. How would you like it if this forum just started calling you by a hated nickname and refused to change it because we all like calling you that better than using your user name?
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Not to frontload the class alphabet even more, but it occurs to me that Disciple really fits most of what I feel is embedded into the Monk's image. It's easy to read as in "Martial Arts Disciple", plus implies both spiritual and physical discipline in training to be able to fight with wither fists as strong as weapons or pick up a monastic weapon and be a monk-type Disciple anyway. A student of the arts of hand to hand combat.
Would be hard for me to stop saying Monk, but then I say "Champion" 3/4 times when I mean it now. Aside from that, the name really isn't more generic than Champion is itself, so I can't even be upset myself on that angle.
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Ascendant fits the power fantasy of perfecting one's body and mind and can work for pretty much any unarmed warrior regardless of how mystic they might or might not be. You can as easily say that a traditional warrior-monk is ascendant as you can say that a UFC fighter who's just claimed the title after running through the field is ascendant. It also means that we can finally cut ties with the limited weapon list because Ascendant Weapons just doesn't carry the same narrative load as Monk Weapons does.
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"Weapons of Discipline" sounds like a BDSM thing. :-)
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Disciple is a really good name.
It invokes martial, mystical, spiritual, improvement-oriented, institutional, and artistic imagery, hitting all the major elements of the class.
It's also more generic than Ascendant and better fits a wider range of power, making it more digestible.
"Weapons of Discipline" also works pretty well when highlighting the unusual nature of many Monk Weapons and helps highlight a common role as teaching tools rather than serious weapons of war.
I feel like the mystic and spiritual side is only represented by some of the monk classes. The brawler who's skilled and tough enough to survive unarmed next to a guy in plate armor is equally as much part of the class as the ascetic mastering himself in quiet contemplation and careful practice.
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Barbarian started as a slur historically and is still used as such in certain places, this complaint has been raised for as long as the class has had this name, it didn’t spring up yesterday.
Maybe that's less offensive because it wasn't ever used as an insult or in a derogatory way?
That’s precisely it.
Also I’ve yet to see any Scandinavians not liking Berserkers being raging warriors in media.
Ki spells are a thing you do have to buy in though, so its very easy to build a non spiritual monk.
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I don't think barbarian's former meaning as a slur really matters. We're long, long removed from Greek/Roman times. It's just not thematically accurate to what the barbarian class is about anymore.
Ki spells are a thing you do have to buy in though, so its very easy to build a non spiritual monk.
Even then you can flavor them as non-magical attacks. My current character is a Monk and he earned his feats and features by being a tough guy who had to learn to fight with limited resources. His ki strike is just him getting amped up and throwing an extra hard flurry. When he gets other ki spells I'll work to make them feel similarly mundane.
I really think that any "changes to names of classes" are going to have to wait for 3rd edition.
Where Monk is probably going to become "Martial Artist" and Barbarian might become something else.
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I think they're silly names that don't convey what their classes are about. "Druid" sort of is, too, but I think the high fantasy genre has gotten so cozy with "druids = nature priest" that it's fine. "Monk" and "barbarian" should be changed. I don't know if they'll do it, but firmly cosign. "Berserker" is a great alternative!
EDIT: I don't have a lot of ideas for "monk", honestly. Mystic, ascendant, initiate, martial artist or adept? That's what I got.
I think you're kind of right, but couldn't we also say that high fantasy has gotten pretty cozy with monks and barbarians as is?
Admittedly I'm kind of ambivalent on most of these, Barbarian isn't a great name. But I also don't think Druid is a particularly good name, and while it's even more entrenched I still maintain it's kind of silly that the game's first Int based caster is literally "wise man."
... Monk though? I feel like there's some uncomfortably Eurocentric undertones in that discussion, even if I think most of the people involved mean well.
As stated above, the idea that Buddhist monks are martial artists may itself be extremely Orientalist. It's not something I'm qualified to speak to, though.
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Orientalist? What does this word mean?
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As stated above, the idea that Buddhist monks are martial artists may itself be extremely Orientalist. It's not something I'm qualified to speak to, though.
In a lot of ways it definitely is.
But I still can't help but feel a little trepidation around the framing.
Orientalist? What does this word mean?
The Orient is an outdated term for Asia broadly speaking. Orientalism in particular tends to refer the way Asia was studied by the West in the past. Particular attention has to be paid to the problematic ways in which this was handled though: exoticism ('look at this strange behavior from over there'), cultural confusion (applying traditions or belief systems specific to one group to other, unrelated groups, possible without even realizing the other group exists at all), and a general lack of contextual understanding of practices (such as taking the literal meaning from a translated text without considering how the average person in that society might approach those traditions or any other broader commentaries or contexts).
Historically, Orientalism was simply the name of the proto-sociological discipline. Orientalists often considered themselves allies to native peoples and were sometimes oblivious to their own damaging beliefs.
In a modern context, Orientalism is primarily a pejorative to point out various examples of ignorant or confused assumptions (particularly the practice of sometimes mishmashing completely different cultures together or erasing certain groups of people by treating them as though they belonged to a different group entirely). Something that's still frustratingly and surprisingly common.
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As an RL Scandanavian ... the main question I have about using 'berserker' is whether biting your shield will get past its DR and damage it.
I think it's important to remember that character class does not exist in the sense of things in-world. The monk who drinks half their body weight in whiskey before headbutting their way out of paying for their drinks would likely be called a barbarian by the captain of the town guard answering the call ... even if said captain then spends an action to activate Rage for extra damage in subduing the monk. (Something like this happened when I was in a Rise of the Runelords campaign -- the cleric, bard, rogue, and sorcerer were called barbarians by one of the NPCs. While the party's ACTUAL barbarian-class character was enjoying the company of a particular other noble elsewhere too.) And it can be amusing if for some reason a character is in a class and doesn't like being referred to by its name. (A modern campaign for this one, Spycraft. My character, per class name, was a Soldier. Being a member of the United States Marine Corps, she had ... issues about being CALLED a soldier.)
All that said, class and class names are a way to package up sets of abilities so you know what you're doing. We're not playing classless a la carte ability buying, and that's perfectly fine. And I'm fine with revising things if they're problematic. (If nothing else, in-world the people around Port Valen prefer 'Mahwek' to the Ulfen name they were given!)
If we have to rename 'Barbarian', 'Rager' may or may not be a good idea. Rage is their mechanic, after all. I wouldn't mind renaming 'Druid' either, although 'Hippie' might not work as a class name that well, and I think 'Shaman' has other meanings both in reality and in game.
Monks? No clue what to do with that name. Then again, is 'fighter' really the best name for its class?
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I really think that any "changes to names of classes" are going to have to wait for 3rd edition.
Where Monk is probably going to become "Martial Artist" and Barbarian might become something else.
I'm pretty sure someone at Paizo has said they were not changing class names because it would affect older 2e products too much.
When, if name changes happen for monk I'm leaning toward Tian Xian monk, or some other name from that setting + monk.
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Issue with something like "Tian Xian monk" is the fact that monks aren't really gated to a specific region in the setting, being pretty much everywhere in the setting, I mean, the iconic monk is from Vudra for example (and even if you did say they all stemmed from whatever place's culture, you still end up with characters being "Nidalese Tian Xian monks" because there's their own culture + the fact their class has one).
Plus, it leads to the issue that whilst Tian Xia =/= East Asia, it is heavily inspired by it, meaning there'd definitely be a feeling that it's kinda like renaming it to "East Asian monk" which I don't really think we wanna be calling something
Finally, there's the issue of it being multi-word when classes are almost always one-word. That's really the main issue I have with the Martial Artist suggestion often given.
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Came in to the thread thinking it would be about nicknames for the rules set itself. I've been calling it Pathfinder 2.2
I don't mind the class titles of Barbarian and Monk. Regardless of their real-world sources they've come to be recognized as their respective concepts withing gaming spaces. AND as was demonstrated by Qaianna, the name of the class is an out-of-game concept that doesn't necessarily reflect how people refer to each other in-game. It's just a label for a collection of abilities. My own barbarian is a professor who has the ghosts of her ancestors lending strength to her attacks. Calling her a 'barbarian' in-universe would just be silly.
To play along with alternative names though... Disciple isn't a bad name. I'll also throw in Cultivator.
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Issue with something like "Tian Xian monk" is the fact that monks aren't really gated to a specific region in the setting, being pretty much everywhere in the setting, I mean, the iconic monk is from Vudra for example (and even if you did say they all stemmed from whatever place's culture, you still end up with characters being "Nidalese Tian Xian monks" because there's their own culture + the fact their class has one).
Plus, it leads to the issue that whilst Tian Xia =/= East Asia, it is heavily inspired by it, meaning there'd definitely be a feeling that it's kinda like renaming it to "East Asian monk" which I don't really think we wanna be calling something
Finally, there's the issue of it being multi-word when classes are almost always one-word. That's really the main issue I have with the Martial Artist suggestion often given.
That's why I said Tian Xian monk or another name from that setting + monk. That other name being something similar to Shaolin, but perhaps more generic like martial monk. The problem with Monk is its use by many cultures, and the cultural differences for example, Shaolin monks and Franciscan monks are so vastly different that they would require separate classes. You could fill an entire book with monk classes for all the gods. Another way to do monks would be to have different sects of monks be the equivalent to cleric Doctrines or some other way of creating subclasses.
(Which gave me an idea for each god having an archetype to take to become a follower of that god. Giving non clerics benefits to followers of a god.)
I don't have an issue with using two words in a class. I wonder how tight of a design box limiting class names to one word is. Looking up occupation names most are one word but not all. Take Flight attendant. Would just calling it just Flight or Attendant be meaningful on a job application?
I think the monk class as is, the name martial artist better fits the adventuring lifestyle of characters better. With the trained and lived in a monastery to gain your skills as a background.
Just brainstorming here I'm not attached to any one idea of how the monk should be named.
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I'd argue that saying Barbarian and Monk are offensive is FAR more dramatic, attention-seeking, and emotional behavior, and frankly reeks of theatrics than anything I've EVER said here
I haven't poured through every post you've ever made, but this statement is probably true.
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My main naming complaint: striking and potency runes are backwards. I've been playing 2E for years and still mess them up because striking should help you hit and potency should make it hurt more when you do connect.
Swapping them would probably be too confusing at this stage, though. Maybe rename the + to attack rolls "accuracy" and the + to damage "power"? This would also have the advantage of distinguishing them more from the armor runes without adding a word.
I once accidentally got into the habit of thinking of striking runes as 'force runes' because they add to the force of your strike... which obviously careens headlong into the problem of imagining a rune that does force damage; in no way can I advocate for force runes but... that's what got stuck in my brain for a good month
I once accidentally got into the habit of thinking of striking runes as 'force runes' because they add to the force of your strike... which obviously careens headlong into the problem of imagining a rune that does force damage; in no way can I advocate for force runes but... that's what got stuck in my brain for a good month
Yeah "force" was the first alternative that popped into my head, too, but I discarded that suggestion for the same reason. I think "power" would be ok though?
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One issue with trying to change the Monk name is that there is a lot of supernatural power tied to it, which is a large part of what a Monk embodies. It's not just some dude in robes who punches things well, because if it was, then names like Brawler or Pugilist would make sense instead; but I find that those names don't exactly encompass the ability to do Hadoukens, for example. After all, what would you call Ryu from Street Fighter?
But changing the Barbarian to Berserker would make sense, given that Rage is the center of their power, and Berserkers are all about being angry fighter types.
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After all, what would you call Ryu from Street Fighter?
Not a monk, that's for sure
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After all, what would you call Ryu from Street Fighter?Not a monk, that's for sure
I mean, he does Ki Blasts (Hadoukens) and has specialty unarmed attacks replicated with feats and stances (Shoryukens)...
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A martial artist and a karate master, for sure. To the point where he can shoot energy blasts no doubt. But a monk? Except in the PF/D&D sense no I wouldn't describe Ryu as a monk.
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Except being a martial artist or karate master has nothing to do with the ability to manipulate Ki. That is expressly a Pathfinder Monk thing to do.
At best, we can argue that Ryu doesn't use Ki, but he certainly is not a spellcaster hurling Fireballs, either.
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I think that Sibelius's point is that the Pathfinder monk being called a monk doesn't make a lot of sense, since "monk" isn't really used to refer to "martial artist with magic powers" in any other non-D&D-based media.
Runes of Precision and Runes of Power might work for a renaming, even if just at your table at home, if the current names don't work for you.