Hello,
is it possible to reduce the number of actions for a focus spell ?
Thanks for your future answer.
Looks like no.
The only thing I know of that reduces the number of actions needed to cast a spell is Quickened Casting. But that doesn't have focus spells on the list.
Cantrips can be quickened. Spell slot spells can be quickened as long as they are cast from lower level spell slots.
But Focus spells are auto-heightened to a level where they wouldn't qualify for Quickened Casting. And that is even if you don't consider the mention of spell slot to exclude focus spells and innate spells from just that.
RAW: No
But many GMs allows once it's just stupid to say that a spellcaster is unable to control the power level of it's cantrips and focus spells. Yet there's no rules allowing this.
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RAW: No
But many GMs allows once it's just stupid to say that a spellcaster is unable to control the power level of it's cantrips and focus spells. Yet there's no rules allowing this.
Saying that people are stupid for following clearly written rules is pretty rude.
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It's not my intention to call the people as stupid. I was saying that this restriction itself is stupid in pure sense of that this restriction don't give any benefits to the game and it is counterintuitive to the principle that your character improves and becomes more skilled as you level up.
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Looks like no.
The only thing I know of that reduces the number of actions needed to cast a spell is Quickened Casting. But that doesn't have focus spells on the list.
Cantrips can be quickened. Spell slot spells can be quickened as long as they are cast from lower level spell slots.
But Focus spells are auto-heightened to a level where they wouldn't qualify for Quickened Casting. And that is even if you don't consider the mention of spell slot to exclude focus spells and innate spells from just that.
Also Contingency but it has the same level limitations as Quickened does
focus cantrips are still cantrip spells. so those would be fine.
Yeah, I would agree with that. Quickened Casting allows for either Cantrips or spells of lower level. Focus Cantrips are still Cantrips.
all like.... what, 3 of them? idk, not checking.
Between Bard, Witch, and Psychic I think there are more like 15 to 20 in total. Not that any one character could get more than a few of them. And most (I think all of the Bard and Witch ones) only cost one action to cast in the first place.
Psychics don't have focus cantrips. They have kind of the opposite--cantrips that they can Amp to focus-spell level with a focus point.
Then what, exactly, are all of these?
And since I have them pulled up, I might as well count them. Looks like I was also seriously underestimating the number of focus cantrips available. There are almost 40 of them.
Just to standardize/simplify the reading on nethys I guess.
The core part of the psychic power, IMO, is However, unlike other spellcasters, you don't gain focus spells that cost Focus Points to cast.Instead, you use your Focus Points to boost or modify your psi cantrips by applying amps— specialized thoughtforms that alter the expression of your psychic power.
Well, that's great and fine that you believe that the Amped versions of the various cantrips (both standard and focus cantrips) are the primary draw of the class. But that doesn't change the fact that Telekinetic Rend, for example, is a focus cantrip. It can be cast all day without spending a focus point at all (though for lower amounts of damage than the Amped version), and it isn't available on the standard spellcasting tradition lists like a Bard could cast from.
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I can't find the phrase "focus cantrip" in the CRB or Dark Archive. As far as I can tell, focus spells are defined by costing focus to cast and are in the book as Focus 1 (or other number). Cantrips are listed as Cantrip 1 (or more). Since cantrips don't cost focus to cast, it didn't make much sense to call them focus cantrips in the CRB.
The CRB lists composition spells and composition cantrips together in the bard section of the focus spells, but they never call them focus cantrips - the thing they have in common is having the composition trait.
I dunno why Archives of Nethys came up with that term since the term used in Dark Archive is "unique psi cantrip".
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Then what, exactly, are all of these?
Unique Psi cantrips granted by specific Conscious Minds. They aren't defined as "Focus Cantrips," possibly because Psychics don't use Focus Spells at all in the first place.
Probably because they have their own specific rules that are pretty different from Focus Cantrips. Or both.They're their own category.
None of the classes actually call their focus spells "focus spells". Clerics have Domain Spells, Bards have Compositions, Witches have Hexes, Wizards have School Spells, ... and Psychics have Psi spells.
So yes, it looks like 'focus spell' is just a term that the community came up with to describe spells that are unique to a class and are cast using focus points - or without using focus points in the case of a focus cantrip.
Like other cantrips, you can cast psi cantrips as often as you like, and they are automatically heightened to half your level rounded up.
So if those aren't focus cantrips, what are they?
For every book prior to Dark Archives, unique class cantrips were listed under the focus spell section of their respective rulebook. Dark Archives was the first book to list all those spells in the class's description.
This argument just feels like semantics.
Probably because they have their own specific rules that are pretty different from Focus Cantrips. Or both.
They're their own category.
That is what I am trying to point out. Psi cantrips do follow the same rules as all of the other classes with focus cantrips.
And it appears that only the Witch actually states their focus spells are 'focus spells'. Though I haven't exhaustively checked all of them.
Hexes are a type of focus spell
Each of the focus cantrip types have their own spin on the rules. Composition Spells can only have one active at a time. Hexes can only have one cast per round. And Psi cantrips can be Amped.
But Psi cantrips can also be cast just like any other cantrip. It does not cost a focus point to cast a Psi Cantrip. It only costs a focus point to cast an Amped Psi Cantrip. Or an Amped standard Cantrip.
These Psi spells even have the Cantrip trait...
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Bard: "Composition spells are a type of focus spell."
Champion: "Your deity’s power grants you special divine spells called devotion spells, which are a type of focus spell."
Cleric: "Domain spells are a type of focus spell."
Druid: "Order spells are a type of focus spell."
... and so on.
Meanwhile psychic:
"However, unlike other spellcasters, you don’t gain focus spells that
cost Focus Points to cast. Instead, you use your Focus Points to boost or modify your psi cantrips by applying amps—specialized thoughtforms that alter the expression of your psychic power."
At no point in the section saying what psi cantrips are does it actually say that psi cantrips are focus spells. And why would it? They're cantrips with a way to spend focus on them. But the CRB definition of a focus spell is a spell that always costs focus to cast, and these don't have that.
But the CRB definition of a focus spell is a spell that always costs focus to cast, and these don't have that.
Neither do Hex Cantrips or Composition Cantrips.
So I am still not seeing what the distinction is.
Meanwhile psychic:
"However, unlike other spellcasters, you don’t gain focus spells that
cost Focus Points to cast.
That doesn't mean that they aren't focus spells - just that they don't cost focus points to cast.
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Is there any practical implication to this?
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Is there any practical implication to this?
Not really that I know of. There could exist some ability that says it works with focus spells but doesn't say it works with cantrips. Then it would work with "focus cantrips" but not other cantrips. I'm not sure that exists but it might.
The most common way a specific kind of spell is being singled out is when something asks for you to cast a spell using spell slots, like with some of the magus feats for extra special spellstrike. The point there is that you're paying something limited.
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Composition cantrips and hex cantrips are the closest example to something that might be a "focus cantrip" but I think it's a bit of a stretch:
- Bard says "composition spells are a type of focus spell"
- Bard says "Composition cantrips are special composition spells that
don’t cost Focus Points"
- Bard says "Composition: To cast a composition cantrip or focus
spell, you use a type of Performance (page 250)."
Witch says:
- Hexes are a type of focus spell. It costs 1 Focus Point to cast a
focus spell, and you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point.
- Hex cantrips are special hexes that don’t cost Focus Points,
So you can do the two-step logic that composition cantrips are compositions and compositions are focus spells. But I think it's a stretch.
And the CRB in general about focus spells says:
Furthermore, you cast focus spells using a special pool of
Focus Points—you can’t prepare a focus spell in a spell slot
or use your spell slots to cast focus spells; similarly, you can’t
spend your Focus Points to cast spells that aren’t focus spells.
(...)
Casting any of your focus spells costs you 1 Focus Point.
And in the glossary:
focus spell A type of spell, specific to a class, that can be cast using Focus Points and is automatically heightened to half your level rounded up. Focus spells always have a descriptive term such as “domain spell” or “ki spell.” 300, 302, 386–407
The bard composition cantrips and witch hex cantrips CAN'T be cast using focus points. For the psychic, it's optional to amp them, but they also have that option with some classic cantrips.
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TL;DR - there might be some obscure ability that works with focus spells and doesn't normally allow (but also doesn't forbid) cantrips, where it matters whether a psi cantrip would also be a focus cantrip. But it requires a fine legalistic reading that seems to contradict the defining feature of focus spells (i.e. always costing focus to cast).
And still, if a Psi cantrip isn't a type of focus spell, what is it?
It certainly isn't an innate spell or a spell slot spell.
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It's a cantrip. The book is pretty clear about it:
"Like other cantrips"
"Your psi cantrips are in addition to the cantrips you choose from the occult list as part of your psychic spellcasting."
"Unlike other cantrips, you can’t swap out psi cantrips gained..."
"Standard Psi Cantrips These are two common cantrips you
automatically gain at 1st level. While these are the same
cantrips used by other spellcasters, you cast them as psi
cantrips, enabling you to amp them for greater effect."
"Unique Psi Cantrips These psi cantrips are unique to your
conscious mind."
Psi cantrips are still cantrips, it's just that some of them are only available to your specific conscious mind, and that you can amp them.
If a Composition Cantrip is a focus spell and a Hex Cantrip is a focus spell, I see no reason that a Psi Cantrip isn't also a focus spell. There is no reason that a particular spell can't be both a focus spell and a cantrip.
Focus spells are a special type of spell attained directly from a branch of study, from a deity, or from another specific source. You can learn focus spells only through special class features or feats, rather than choosing them from a spell list.
That is more of a defining feature of focus spells than having to spend a focus point in casting them given the existence of Bard and Witch focus cantrips. And Psi Cantrips certainly meet that requirement.
I don't know why you all are arguing over psychic cantrips.
Boredom mostly. I'm pretty sure that Ascalaphus and I are both well aware that there is currently nothing that would make any distinction between the two rulings.
Though now I have to go look up where the rules prevent using metamagic on an Amped cantrip...
You can't use metamagic on amped spells,
Yeah, I'm coming up empty. Where are you getting this from?
If you pull up the psychic class page on nethys and go through the definition of Amp in the key terms box it's there.
Killed a lot of excited would-be psychic players when they saw they wouldn't be able to reach amp imaginary weapon on two targets.
You can't use metamagic on amped spells,Yeah, I'm coming up empty. Where are you getting this from?
Amp: "The singular focus required to amp a psi cantrip means that unless otherwise noted, you can apply only one amp to a given psi cantrip, and you can't apply both an amp and a metamagic ability to a cantrip at the same time."
Ah. Key Terms sidebar.
Strange place to put that. I generally think of the Key Terms sidebar as being a centralized place to duplicate information that is listed elsewhere in the rules. Not a place to define rules.
And still, if a Psi cantrip isn't a type of focus spell, what is it?
It certainly isn't an innate spell or a spell slot spell.
A secret, more complex third thing.