Kishmo |
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I'm super curious about how they decided which classes to "Zoom and "Enhance!" I mean I know everyone says that Witchwarpers are underwhelming, but the others are at least a little surprising. Solarian is good at what it does (delete things at melee range) so maybe the defensive manifestations are getting a little love. And I don't believe the bit about Envoys having "nothing to do after lvl 12" - there's so many good improvisations from earlier levels. With technomancer, any problems it has, to me, feel more like issues with spellcasters across the board, and not specific to technomancers.
Maybe this is more a case of "we have some neat ideas for these classes," than "these classes are underperforming"? A content patch, rather than a balance patch?
Driftbourne |
Think it's a bit of both content and balance patch. They list 4 classes getting what might be the balance patches and that all classes are getting new content.
For Envoys could be a case of making them stand out more vs. an operative. I'd love to see Solarians get a non-martial use of their manifestations, but I think that's a long shot.
Jokingly I like to think narrative starship combat will mean Envoys will be the new pilots. Very curious to see what narrative starship combat will be like.
Also very curious to see how they do weapon scaling.
I'm still excited for ports of Call to, so it looks like a great year for Starfinder!
Arutema |
I'm super curious about how they decided which classes to
"Zoom and"Enhance!" I mean I know everyone says that Witchwarpers are underwhelming, but the others are at least a little surprising. Solarian is good at what it does (delete things at melee range) so maybe the defensive manifestations are getting a little love. And I don't believe the bit about Envoys having "nothing to do after lvl 12" - there's so many good improvisations from earlier levels. With technomancer, any problems it has, to me, feel more like issues with spellcasters across the board, and not specific to technomancers.Maybe this is more a case of "we have some neat ideas for these classes," than "these classes are underperforming"? A content patch, rather than a balance patch?
For Solarion, I wonder if heavy armor prof and soulfire fusion won't be baked into the base class now, instead of must-have upgrades for a solar blade build.
WatersLethe |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Kishmo wrote:For Solarion, I wonder if heavy armor prof and soulfire fusion won't be baked into the base class now, instead of must-have upgrades for a solar blade build.I'm super curious about how they decided which classes to
"Zoom and"Enhance!" I mean I know everyone says that Witchwarpers are underwhelming, but the others are at least a little surprising. Solarian is good at what it does (delete things at melee range) so maybe the defensive manifestations are getting a little love. And I don't believe the bit about Envoys having "nothing to do after lvl 12" - there's so many good improvisations from earlier levels. With technomancer, any problems it has, to me, feel more like issues with spellcasters across the board, and not specific to technomancers.Maybe this is more a case of "we have some neat ideas for these classes," than "these classes are underperforming"? A content patch, rather than a balance patch?
I'd love it if there was a way to play a lightly armored solar weapon build like a Jedi.
Gaulin |
Yeah I'm very curious about the reworked classes for sure. Witchwarper is the only one that I've seen a lot of complaints about, but even then those who like the class really like it. Technomancer seems like a near perfect class with a ton of very viable ways to play, so my immediate thought is that devs had a super fun idea that they really wanted to implement.
Solarian is such a weird case. It's a class that is very MAD but it also performs really well and there's a lot of ways to play it. Could be a bruiser, could almost be a caster with it's revelations, could be ranged DPS, etc. I could see complexity, both in how the class plays and the tons of ways it can be built, as the reason it's getting a remake, but who knows.
Envoy, far as I know, performs really well. It makes groups perform better. But I could see that the class is a little boring maybe (to some, I'm sure there are lots of players who swear by it) so maybe that's part of the reason it's getting work done. In my very first starfinder game I had a player who was a little bored by get em-ing every turn.
BigNorseWolf |
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Envoy, far as I know, performs really well. It makes groups perform better. But I could see that the class is a little boring maybe (to some, I'm sure there are lots of players who swear by it) so maybe that's part of the reason it's getting work done. In my very first starfinder game I had a player who was a little bored by get em-ing every turn.
The class is REALLY slow to take off and once it gets going comes to a screeching halt. If you're going the get em route (and you really should) Your build comes online at 6 when you can get em and attack and then envoy something with the move. But after level 8 there are almost no new talents.
It isn't really that much better at its own niche than an operative would be.
Yes you can take more, but its regressive. Its not scaling it's Rising incrementally at best
1) you pick your favorite level 8 ability. The next thing you pick will be by definition, slightly worse to you.
2) You're picking level 8 abilities till level 20.
3) You're picking level 8 abilities that you can't use because of the action economy bottleneck. Like, 3 great things you can add to your standard action attack aren't three times greater than one: they're a marginal improvement at best (and a nothingburger in all likelyhood)
A lot of people like the flavor, but I've seen even some very roleplay heavy/who cares about the mechanics? people get frustrated with the base classes inability to do more than plunk away ineffectively with a pistol or syngergize their own abilities.
Master Han Del of the Web |
I can see it both ways. People very much tend to underestimate exactly how useful an Envoy is to a party because their abilities do not hinge on big dramatic effects. It's easy to overlook the benefits of seemingly small bonuses to rolls and topping off allies' stamina points when hit. At the same time, some better weapon access at the very least would allow them to take better advantage of their own abilities or be useful as secondary hitters.
Davor Firetusk |
I would have preferred a rework to the Biohacker over the technomancer. The cool thing is that the other 3 classes don't need a lot of adjustment to round them out, which is generally the issue that they have just enough limits that the number of comparably effective builds is small. I am running a Witchwarper with an Envoy dip that is fairly effective. Really good face, and I have a few different useful reactions each round to go along with a spell/attack or get 'em. Individually none is a game changer, but I always have multiple ways to contribute.
Kishmo |
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1) you pick your favorite level 8 ability. The next thing you pick will be by definition, slightly worse to you.
2) You're picking level 8 abilities till level 20.
I think this is the crux of where I disagree with your Envoy thoughts. There's a lot of Improvisations available to Envoys that are really good, available from lvls 2 - 8. It's not a problem that there aren't improvs to take post-lvl 12; rather it's an opportunity that there's enough improvs available at early level that continue to be useful, all the way to lvl 20. There's enough good options, front-loaded into the Improv list, that you can't possibly have them all. Clever Feint / Clever Attack, Get 'Em / Improved Get 'Em, Inspiring Boost / Quick Inspiring Boost / Inspiring Oration, Hurry / Improved Hurry - all of these are amazing abilities, even if you can start any of those 'trees' at lvl 2 or 4. Put another way, if Hurry wasn't available until 8 and Improved Hurry at lvl 14, they (or whatever other Improv pair) would still be serious contenders, IMO.
And these are the just the bog-standard cookie-cutter improvs that are, across the board, always useful in a fight - we're not even getting into the more niche picks, like melee envoys, or spell envoys XD Beyond even that, these are just the Combat Improvs - haven't even touched all of the ones that make you better out of combat, like better with disguises, or lying, or medicine, or hacking, or spell gems, or whatever else.
Sorry, I just don't buy the argument that earlier-level improvs stop being (as) good at lvl 12, or that envoys have taken everything worth taking by lvl 12 :D Taking Get 'Em at lvl 12 is still a good pick, even if you've already taken Inspiring Oration.
BigNorseWolf |
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It's not a problem that there aren't improvs to take post-lvl 12; rather it's an opportunity that there's enough improvs available at early level that continue to be useful, all the way to lvl 20.
They might be useful in some platonic sense on their own but they are simply not useful to the envoy that takes them when taken in combination. Both clever feint and improved get em are independently useful for example but they don't synergize very well because they both need your standard action.
There's enough good options, front-loaded into the Improv list, that you can't possibly have them all.
A machete, an axe, a saw, and a brush hook are all great at cutting things, but I only have two hands worth of things I can do at once. It might be marginally useful to switch between them but you're not looking at a massive increase. Meanwhile other classes post 10 are getting chainsaws.
Clever Feint / Clever Attack, Get 'Em / Improved Get 'Em, Inspiring Boost / Quick Inspiring Boost / Inspiring Oration, Hurry / Improved Hurry - all of these are amazing abilities
But they don't work together. There's a bottle neck in your action economy. They're all good for "the envoy" but what do they all do in combination for your envoy?
Sorry, I just don't buy the argument that earlier-level improvs stop being (as) good at lvl 12, or that envoys have taken everything worth taking by lvl 12 :D Taking Get 'Em at lvl 12 is still a good pick, even if you've already taken Inspiring Oration.
What does a envoys standard turn look like at level 12 vs level 20 ?
Kishmo |
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Dangnabbit, BNW, making me have thoughts about Envoys :D I don't want to de-rail this thread anymore...maybe I'll make a new thread and we can continue. (Bah, no one wants to see grognards complaining back and forth about "Improvisations these days," do they XD)
To get back to mildly on-topic thoughts: someone in another server pointed out they were surprised that Mechanic wasn't on the list, as it's one of the classes people consistently feel doesn't do its schtick well enough enough comparable classes, like technomancer or the ever-present operative. Maybe Mechanics will get some fun Alternate Class Features or feat support?
I'd love it if there was a way to play a lightly armored solar weapon build like a Jedi.
I think you can sort of do this already, with the Lunar Weapon solar manifestation from FFoD, no? It gives your solarian weapon the Operative property, so you can pump Dex and get that lightly armoured, dextrous, warrior feel you're looking for. Take Gravity Boost at level 2 for that Force Jump, and Reflect at level 6 (which actually works well with your high Dex, since it requires a Ranged attack roll) and you're off to the Jedi races!
Cellion |
Mechanics have a lot of cool tricks (Hacking at range, turning looted weapons into grenades, and overcharging weapons for themselves and allies, just from the CRB), but the part I see most complained about is just that their engineering and computers are not as high as an equivalent operative or technomancer because they often can't afford to max INT and still be good at their combat role. Honestly, it seems like a few additional Mechanic Tricks and a tone-down of the operator would be enough to make mechanics shine.
Envoys on the other hand are just dull. All their abilities are at will, so you naturally fall into a cycle of using the strongest ones every round. At the various tables I've played at, the players controlling the envoys are generally having some of the least fun. I've had more envoy players slow-post or ghost the table than any other class. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Paizo does with them! Ideally a pretty big overhaul of their core abilities/playstyle.
BigNorseWolf |
I think mechanics are fine where they are. The operative is just too good at stealing other classes' roles when it comes to skill checks.
For most of the levels where the game is played you can just slap skill focus or two on any other class with a good int and have the mechanics at mechanicing to be just as good as the mechanic. If something is the core underlying principle of your class to the point that you're named after it, it should run deeper into your class than a bonus on a d20 roll. Remote hack is a good start but it needs more.
I have a ysoki mystic that focuses on int that gets more than a few WTFs at his engineering score from the mechanics.
Metaphysician |
Honestly, re: Mechanics, I think the issue is more GMs letting players substitute a skill roll for stuff that shouldn't really be possible with just a skill roll. A slightly higher bonus isn't a big deal, unless the GM inadvertently is letting that bonus also magically grant a bunch of extra class abilities like "hacking the weapons the enemies are carrying".
That said, should it really even be surprising that a Mechanic who spends a lot of focus on physical combat abilities, might be less good at hacking then an Operative who specifically focuses on intelligence and intelligence skills? Sure, hacking and such are part of the Mechanic's class wheelhouse, but that doesn't mean they automatically get superiority over everyone even if they don't bother to focus on that area, or even that they *should*. If you want to be the best at hacking, then you need to focus on that, and accept that this means you will lose out comparatively in raw combat power.
BretI |
The thing is that the operative can have that combat power and hacking ability without too much problem.
The thing that still irritates me the most is that a drone mechanic needs to pay for their drone to have arms capable of opening a door and a normal camera like you would find in the basic Comm Unit or any of today’s smart phones. Just make those two things standard on drones and it would help the drone mechanics a lot.
Scottybobotti |
I've been enjoying playing my envoy so far. He's level 7 at the moment.
I took spell gem understanding so he can use magic and for feats I took improved feint and longarms. With those two feats he can feint as a move action and still apply Get 'Em with his attack. My envoy also makes use of grenades and has a syringe stick so he can apply poison too.
You can also use some improvisations in conjunction with each other such as: Quick Inspiring Boost which is a move action and Improved Get 'Em which uses a standard action.
That being said I'm fine with envoys getting some boosts to what they already do, but I'd be perfectly fine if they stayed the same also.
BigNorseWolf |
I've been enjoying playing my envoy so far. He's level 7 at the moment.
Right , but what are your plans going forward? Depending on your improvs there may be little/no mechanical reason to stay with the class. or at the very least ever third level you'll be getting a nothingburger for a very important ability.
Scottybobotti |
I can take the quick or improved improvisations so I can use both my move action and standard action to combine envoy abilities. I have Dispiriting Taunt as an improvisation, so I can take Quick Dispiriting Taunt and then make an enemy shaken so it takes a -2 to its saving throws and then throw a grenade at it all in one round.
By level 20 you'll have been able to select 11 improvisations. I'm sure that is more than enough to be able to have all the really good ones and be able to use them as move actions.
I guess the question might be what can an envoy do at level 20 in comparison to what the other classes can at that level since they don't really get many special abilities compared to other classes. My envoy would use his move action to apply Quick Dispiriting Taunt to his target and then use a spell gem to cast a spell like Snuff Life or Disintegrate. So the envoy can basically do the same thing as a soldier's Kill Shot ability.
BigNorseWolf |
I can take the quick or improved improvisations so I can use both my move action and standard action to combine envoy abilities. I have Dispiriting Taunt as an improvisation, so I can take Quick Dispiriting Taunt and then make an enemy shaken so it takes a -2 to its saving throws and then throw a grenade at it all in one round.
Unlike the regular use of demoralize that's explicitly a mind-affecting emotion effect, so it won't work on half the monster manual. The bluff improvs have the same problem where the feat is better.
hey, isn't that an opportunity to pick an envoy talent that works inistead..... No. It means you took an envoy talent that only works half the time and need to spend another one to get you back up to base functionality.
By level 20 you'll have been able to select 11 improvisations. I'm sure that is more than enough to be able to have all the really good ones and be able to use them as move actions.
The point is you can't. You only get 2 move actions per round. Your ability to use more than 2 improvs is thus at best marginally useful. So while you can theoretically Quick dispiriting taunt, quick boost, quick tail scratch, and quick hurry etc as a practical matter you use the same two that you have going at 8/10/12. The ability to pick and chose which ones you throw through the bottleneck is at best a marginal improvement over picking two good ones and sticking to them.
I guess the question might be what can an envoy do at level 20 in comparison to what the other classes can at that level since they don't really get many special abilities compared to other classes. My envoy would use his move action to apply Quick Dispiriting Taunt to his target and then use a spell gem to cast a spell like Snuff Life or Disintegrate. So the envoy can basically do the same thing as a soldier's Kill Shot ability.
You can do that with 2 levels of envoy and a feat (and on a wider variety of targets at that) . Why spend another 18 levels working on that trick?
Kishmo |
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Sigh, well, if we're still going to keep talking about this... :D
The point is you can't [use all the really good improvisations as move actions]. You only get 2 move actions per round. Your ability to use more than 2 improvs is thus at best marginally useful. So while you can theoretically Quick dispiriting taunt, quick boost, quick tail scratch, and quick hurry etc as a practical matter you use the same two that you have going at 8/10/12. The ability to pick and chose which ones you throw through the bottleneck is at best a marginal improvement over picking two good ones and sticking to them.
I don't buy this. Your point about the "action economy bottleneck" is true of every class ability, feat, spell, item, and well, thing in the game. What you're arguing is analogous to asking, "why would a spellcaster learn more than one spell, they can only ever cast one spell a turn."* Different situations call for different responses. Having options so that you can choose the best tactic for the given situation at hand is a part of the game, and having access to more options means you're more likely to respond well to whatever's happening.
Having Inspiring Boost, Improved Inspiring Boost, and Inspiring Oration are all good, because being able to choose which 'version' you want (Move, Standard, or Full) can be useful. Not to mention, and I think this is obvious, but different situations call for different Improvisations, right?
For example: Round 1/2 of a fight, it's good to use Hurry/Quick Hurry to help your melee people into range to do their work. By Round 3/4 you probably don't need to shuffle your allies around, and they've been in melee range for a bit and have probably taken some hits, so having Inspiring Boost is better. Were a few allies hit by a space-fireball? Full action Inspiring Oration. Did one ally eat a crit to the face and need a bunch of SP back? Standard Action Inspiring Boost. Did they just take a little damage? Move Action Inspiring Boost and then use your Standard to attack (or cast a spell with your Spell Gem Understanding, or hit 'em with a Dispiriting Taunt because your spellcaster said they're going to nuke 'em so lower their saves, or whatever else that's useful.) By round 7/8, maybe you're in dire straits, and people are dropping to 0 HP - oh, now's a good time to use A Few Steps More!, which of course didn't make sense to use earlier in the combat.
You're suggesting that there's some some 'optimal' script or choice of actions that every Envoy should take in every round, and taking other Improvisations or reacting to different situations outside of the script is bad or suboptimal, and I just don't get it.
If anything, rather than "just use the same 2 Improvisations over and over," combat should be more like a decision tree: did [some scenario I can hard-counter] happen? If yes, [hard counter.] If no, move to next decision. Look at in this way, the more [hard counters] you have, the more likely you are able to decisively affect the battle.
Look, I'm not saying "Envoy is done" and that it needs no further development or options. And yeah, it'd be cool to see some higher level Improvs come around. But to say that it's a dead class, and there's no reason to take a level in it past 12? That's a bit much.
* and in case you're thinking "aha, but unlike improvisations, spells get better at level 13 and 16!" I will repeat what I said in my earlier post: there are enough Improvisations available at early levels that are still really good that they're worth picking up post 12.
BigNorseWolf |
I don't buy this. Your point about the "action economy bottleneck" is true of every class ability, feat, spell, item, and well, thing in the game.
It's not, either as a technical matter or as the bigger picture.
As a technical matter when you have weapon focus in advanced weapons thats working with everything you do with that weapon. Your cleave is better, your lunge is better, your step up and strike is better...
As to the bigger picture the envoy is a shrub a caster is a christmas tree.
____ 66
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As you admit, the spells are getting bigger. But what you overlook is the spells are also growing OUT much faster than the envoys skillset. Yes, remove condition is rather situational, but I have 19 other spells known to pull from for utility.
Having Inspiring Boost, Improved Inspiring Boost, and Inspiring Oration are all good, because being able to choose which 'version' you want (Move, Standard, or Full)
Except you can only use one per fight/ rest (and the general problem with envoy healing: if you need to rest anyway you didn't do anything) For a spellcaster it would be like if Mystic cure v stopped me from casting I II III and IV.
There's a few levels of hurt in this game
Fresh as a daisy
Out of staminia
Into hit points
Taking an involuntary nap
dead
Since the target of inspiring boost needs to rest to be inspired again the most common form of hurt (resting for staminia) the inspiring boost just doesn't matter that much. You're either resting for staminia or you're not.
Hit point damage isn't that big of a deal: even if you don't have a mystic with healing touch six packs of healing serums are cheap
So it really only matters if you drop. Inspiring boost scales terribly compared to incoming damage to prevent that from happening. It's a standard action to use to its full effect , which if you've optimized other aspects of the character could be better used dropping someone a round sooner.
Not to mention, and I think this is obvious, but different situations call for different Improvisations, right?
They do SOMEWHAT but I'm skeptical as to how much on any particular envoy rather than schrodinger's the envoy.
But what doesn't seem obvious is that if you have a generically good move improv/ attack improv and an amazing under some circumstances improv/improv then you haven't gained amazing. You've only gained the difference of (amazing minus good) X %of the time you deviate from good. because there's an opportunity cost.
For example: Round 1/2 of a fight, it's good to use Hurry/Quick Hurry to help your melee people into range to do their work.
They really should have haste/haste circuits for that.
But once there hurry is still amazing. They can move up and full attack, or full attack and back off. forcing the bad guy to step and swing rather than full attack is generally more damage prevention than inspiring boost.Were a few allies hit by a space-fireball? Full action Inspiring Oration. Did one ally eat a crit to the face and need a bunch of SP back? Standard Action Inspiring Boost. Did they just take a little damage? Move Action Inspiring Boost and then...
Or just get em and have them drop a round sooner. Hurry the vesk around back so he can't five foot away and cast again. There is an opportunity cost here.
You're suggesting that there's some some 'optimal' script or choice of actions that every Envoy should take in every round, and taking other Improvisations or reacting to different situations outside of the script is bad or suboptimal, and I just don't get it.
Not bad. Just incrementally better and that isn't good enough. Leveling off when the power curve is going up exponentially is a bad thing.
My Ysoki envoy melissa has a Gun bigger than she is. Her planned round is Greater feint LOOK A AMONKEY get em!/Shoot. She also has hurry (and may pick up improved hurry rather than inspiring shot)
Are there situations where Inspiring oration might be the best option? Sure. Does it happen? Yes. But how often does it happen and how much better is it than your SOP when it does? IMHO Not often and not very.
BigNorseWolf |
If the new revamped class vibes with you then it's good, if you liked the existing class then it's good. I don't see what is to be gained from this argument, when both sides are literally getting what they want already.
"Hey, I think this is what went wrong here try not to do that again when you take another whack at it"
Milo v3 |
"Hey, I think this is what went wrong here try not to do that again when you take another whack at it"
Except that you've already convinced Paizo. The things you're complaining about are literally what paizo says the point of the new classes are meant to address.
"This generally means a few key tweaks to core abilities or filling in some levels that didn’t provide interesting class options. In some cases, it’s also about opening up the classes to feel like they’re contributing more during combat and not always falling into the tactics all the time."
They are already designing these with your words in mind. Arguing about whether the issue exists or not, is irrelevant at this point. There will be the original version for people who already are fine with the current situation, and there will be a version designed with giving them more options throughout the levels in mind that increase the diversity of what actions they are doing round by round.
Squiggit |
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I think mechanics are fine where they are. The operative is just too good at stealing other classes' roles when it comes to skill checks.
TBH I think this is backwards. They got it right with Operative skill bonuses.
It's other classes having these weird class specific, limited form skill multipliers that's broken.
BigNorseWolf |
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Arutema wrote:I think mechanics are fine where they are. The operative is just too good at stealing other classes' roles when it comes to skill checks.TBH I think this is backwards. They got it right with Operative skill bonuses.
It's other classes having these weird class specific, limited form skill multipliers that's broken.
If you have a bunch of other meaningful options, and all your class is is a bonus on a d20, someone is going to get a similar bonus/success rate or just roll better.
Different classes doing similar things thrive off of incomparables. Wireless hack is their best example you can't put a plus value on that and its damned handy. But they need more. Let them hack robots, take over the environmental controls of a building, see through the areas security cameras.. gonzo impossible space hacker stuff not just being good at opening the door or opening a file.
Kishmo |
I don't see what is to be gained from this argument
Yeah, you're right. I tried to let it go, really I did Milo :'D
Just to explain myself, though - when there's a hot take or controversial post about a big mechanical thing (like a class) I feel it's important to offer alternate viewpoints, where they exist. Especially in times like the present when there's lots of new people checking out the system - it's all too easy for a newbie to see something on the forums or reddits or whatever and accept it as gospel and then be like "lol envoys are trash tier l2soldier git gud" or whatever. (Not that that's what BNW is saying, but you get my point.)
Kishmo |
Dragging us back on-topic again: there's two very specific things on my Enhanced wishlist. They're both pretty niche, but also both things that I think have a defined 'design space' that is currently empty. Plus, from the blog post the other day, it really sounds like the theme is "character options, character options, CHARACTER OPTIONS!" so - a sapient can dream, right?
1. A non-unwieldy weapon for lvl 1 melee people to use. There's a gap in between the one-handed longsword that does 1d8, and the 2 two-handed unwieldy doshko that does 1d12. Feels like somewhere in between those two, there should be a two-handed 1d10 melee weapon that isn't unwieldy.
(Well, I guess the warclub fits the bill, but it's not Society-legal. What is my lvl 1 heavy weapon skirmisher supposed to use :D)
2. Some way to increase action economy for spell-gem users. It feels weird that the best way to use spell gems, from an action economy standpoint, is to actually use spell chips that are in a computer that is directly connected to the user, via a datajack, magic rock with telepathic UI, etc. In this way, all of your spell gems are accessible without having to draw them, wield them, have free hands, etc. It'd be good if there was something with that same functionality, but without going through computers. It's very fine and on-brand for technomancers, but for the other spell-casting classes (or classes that can gain spell gem access) it'd be neat to have a less computer-driven solution. I am hesitant to throw the word out, but...maybe some sort of bandolier?
Driftbourne |
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as to that second, try cheek pouches. Either naturally or as a species graft. I flavor code mine so i don't try to stabalize the downed guy with a force blast again...
I'm picturing a cross between a yoski and a skittermander with 6 cheek pouches able to ready 12 items at one time.
Justin Norveg |
Justin Norveg wrote:as to that second, try cheek pouches. Either naturally or as a species graft. I flavor code mine so i don't try to stabalize the downed guy with a force blast again...I'm picturing a cross between a yoski and a skittermander with 6 cheek pouches able to ready 12 items at one time.
you can have 10/19 items in the cheekpouches ready to go
Kishmo |
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New wish-list item I'm hoping to see in the Witchwarpers rework: a way to pull whatever you need out of an alternate reality. I want the Operative's Utility Belt Exploit, except as a Paradigm Shift. Bonus points if this hypothetical Paradigm Shift is called "Everything Bagel" :D
Xenocrat |
Seems boring and overlapping with other classes, but something it should be able to do. The Technomancer can already do 90% of that with Fabricate Tech/Arms, the existing Witchwarper can do a lot of it (but different) with Infinite Tech, the Precog can do it with Advanced/Masterful Preparation, the Shaper Mystic can do it.
Gaulin |
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My dream witchwarper alternate feature (as someone who doesn't really like the class) would be an infinite worlds replacement to poach other classes features for short periods of time, taking knowledge from alternate realities where your character was a soldier or mechanic, etc. It would be something very unique and fits the class well.
Master Han Del of the Web |
My dream witchwarper alternate feature (as someone who doesn't really like the class) would be an infinite worlds replacement to poach other classes features for short periods of time, taking knowledge from alternate realities where your character was a soldier or mechanic, etc. It would be something very unique and fits the class well.
Just be careful not to accidentally tap into an alternate reality where your fingers are processed meat tubes.
Mechalibur |
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My big wish for Witchwarper is that their infinite worlds (or equivalent) gets decoupled from spell slots along with the few Paradigm Shifts that use spell slots. It's a really cool ability, but some of the effects feel pretty minor compared to what that spell slot could do. Instead it could have a dedicated number of uses per day, with the power scaling up as you level.
I'm glad Solarians are included in the classes getting reworked - I don't think they're weak per se, but they have a few things I find annoying when it comes to building a character. Charisma as their key ability score, for example, bothers me a bit since several builds don't really rely on it. My guess was the intent was to stop people from completely dumping charisma (which you totally could if you don't go for DC-based revelations) by hurting their resolve if they do. I'd rather see built-in benefits for charisma, though, or maybe letting you pick Strength/Dexterity as your key ability score if desired.
Another issue I have is that you don't have any control over your starting zenith revelations, especially since Black Hole sucks (pun not intended). Spending a standard action to have a chance to pull people near you just doesn't seem like a good use of your time or worth unattuning for. Supernova is fine, at least, but it would still be nice to have some options.
This leads in to my last major issue: there isn't much reason to switch between your two different modes. Something like allowing you to attune to the opposite mode you were in after using a zenith revelation could make for a more dynamic playstyle. As is, I think most solarians stick to their favorite mode (usually positron since it's generally more damage), and the Broken Cycle alternate class feature just encouraged that playstyle even further.
Qaianna |
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Squiggit wrote:Arutema wrote:I think mechanics are fine where they are. The operative is just too good at stealing other classes' roles when it comes to skill checks.TBH I think this is backwards. They got it right with Operative skill bonuses.
It's other classes having these weird class specific, limited form skill multipliers that's broken.
If you have a bunch of other meaningful options, and all your class is is a bonus on a d20, someone is going to get a similar bonus/success rate or just roll better.
Different classes doing similar things thrive off of incomparables. Wireless hack is their best example you can't put a plus value on that and its damned handy. But they need more. Let them hack robots, take over the environmental controls of a building, see through the areas security cameras.. gonzo impossible space hacker stuff not just being good at opening the door or opening a file.
I think one major issue is the concentration of skills. I went through Against the Aeon Throne as an exocortex mechanic ... and our pilot was an operative. And the things an operative uses to do its sneaky stuff are combined into the things a mechanic uses to do its mechanicy stuff. I can't even thematically separate an operative hacking a computer and fiddling open a lock from a mechanic doing the same job. I wonder if it's that both classes are the 'thief/skill monkey' kind of things, like a rogue versus a ninja in more medieval RPGs.
Driftbourne |
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Is the overlapping of skills a bad thing? Considering how important computer and engineer checks are in Starfinder. If only mechanics were good at computer and engineer checks, every party would have to have a mechanic. Flavor wise an operative wants to hack a computer or pick a lock when no one is looking, whereas a mechanic might say watch me do this to show off their skills. Having more than one character with the same skill is a perfect time to use Aid Another.
BigNorseWolf |
Is the overlapping of skills a bad thing? Considering how important computer and engineer checks are in Starfinder. If only mechanics were good at computer and engineer checks, every party would have to have a mechanic. Flavor wise an operative wants to hack a computer or pick a lock when no one is looking, whereas a mechanic might say watch me do this to show off their skills. Having more than one character with the same skill is a perfect time to use Aid Another.
yes its a bad thing. needing a mechanic however would be a worse thing. But the overlap is still a bad thing.
The overlap comes with effectively no differentiation
When you aid another you're effectively a +2 toolkit and nothing more, and you can do that as a neophyte at level 1 or 2 or as a master at level 12 that just happens to be one point lower than the other guy.
Qaianna |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is the overlapping of skills a bad thing? Considering how important computer and engineer checks are in Starfinder. If only mechanics were good at computer and engineer checks, every party would have to have a mechanic. Flavor wise an operative wants to hack a computer or pick a lock when no one is looking, whereas a mechanic might say watch me do this to show off their skills. Having more than one character with the same skill is a perfect time to use Aid Another.
I think it's less the overlap as it is how broad Engineering and Computers are as skills. An operative who's studied up on how to break into offices and empty their databases is simultaneously qualified to perform massive starship repairs mid-battle and operate targeting sensors in battle. Unfortunately I can't think of how to break the two skills apart enough for each to do their thing.