Sarenrae seems....kinda dumb

[Manyeyesinthesky]

Im not down talking the writers or the lore, its just not clicking for me. Sorry if my style of humor comes off as a jerk x_x.

TLDR Are are the gods just "a wizard did it" plot devices with proper nouns? Mainly Sarenrae, Gormuz. Hyperfocused for lore of a char idea I really like and dove into Gormuz lore but not sure whats true in 1e vs 2e.wanted to by God's and Magic book. But given my disappointment via online research in the wikia, forums, and in person player chats has made me feel that money would be better spent on a different book.

So if I have this right: All the gods imprison the unkillable BBEG universe buster. Sarenrae goes full Khaleesi on Sarenranite major city built atop said prison cuz they become tainted and slayed a herald. All the other gods are cool with the prison having a crack now? Said crack creates a prison break for, among others, DnD Godzilla '98 Tesserasque to destroy multitiude of kingdoms. In her plane of souls she takes secret walks among the Skid Row of heaven for inspiration?

Also odd for a merciful goddess she tends to be headquartered at slaver posts. Not going to touch on the military desert organization group as those topics quickly become moral relatitivistic talking points. Im willing to 100% believe the writers dont have an ounce of malice when crafting the world.

My question: is this accurate in 2e? Just want to make sure I have ACCURATE lore rather than something that may be 1) outdated, or even 2) I know im lacking in knowledge, but is there context that at least makes this make sense. 3) this is correct and I'm out of touchwith the lore.

All three are completely valid options. Im OK being wrong I'll just adjust the char accordingly.

[keftiu]

Sarenrae has consistently been presented as opposed to slavery in 2e lore; many of those places have also recently outlawed slavery in 2e publications, with Katapesh being most recent and Qadira strongly hinted at.

Sealing Rovagug took the combined efforts of several gods who absolutely do not get along. I imagine if they'd been able to fix the Pit of Gormuz in the time since it happened, they would've.

As always, dedicated lore books from the current edition are always going to be better resources than unofficial resources mostly built off of 1e stuff. Gods & Magic is a worthwhile purchase if you want to see what modern Paizo thinks their own deities looks like.

[Muskratful]

I agree - and let's not forget also about the Cult of Dawnflower, who had played a significant role in Qadira's occupation of Osirion and later were also involved in assassination of qadiran strap of Osirion. Also the devastating war between followers of Sarenrae and Norgorber that led to Ragadoum's prohibition of all religion. While these were not actions of Sarenrae herself, she still granted her divine powers to her followers responsible for all of these action. Very questionable behaviour for NG goddess.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Manyeyesinthesky wrote:

Sarenrae goes full Khaleesi on Sarenranite major city built atop said prison cuz they become tainted and slayed a herald.

Mind that the city could hardly be described as a 'Sarenite major city'. Every Sarenite living in the city was doing so in direct contravention to their deity's will, despite many warnings not to found a city there. These followers, perhaps deceived by Rovagug's influence in some way, ignored her every warning to avoid the area, choosing to interpret signs of her disfavour as tests of their faith.

These 'followers' of hers then murdered her herald, sent in the latest of a line of escalating warnings that the location was bad news. Whether the people of Gormuz were so corrupted by the Rough Beast by the time of their judgment that they deserved their fate is a fair debate, but it is certain that Sarenrae regrets her haste in smiting this particular source of evil. In fact, I believe it has been said that this event is part of the reason why modern day Sarenrae stresses working toward redemption as well as striking down evil.

---

Oh, and the city wasn't built on top of the city, or at least, there isn't any city in the world that's more "on top" of Rovagug's prison in the centre of the planet than any other. Gormuz was built atop one of the seams leftover from fusing the planet back together.

[Temperans]

Paizo treats canon as a series of history books and myths. Everything is "canon" as much as a person wrote it down in a history book. Just like history books and myths, what is written down is not the full story of what actually happened. They specifically said that unless said otherwise everything from PF1 is still canon.

Sarenrae is a goddess of fire, healing, the sun, and redemption. She is not a goddess of endless patience. During the events of Gormuz she tried to redeem the city, and she was responded with the death of her herald. Naturally, that means all of those people cannot be redeemed and she smithed them from the face of the earth. The issue was that she went to far and made a crack along one of the seams.

The same mentality that created that city, is what created the cult, which Paizo is heavily trying to erase the existence off. For a while the area worshiped Sarenae as a goddess of the sun, fire, and smithing evil more than her role as a goddess of healing and redemption. Leading to a cult focused on those aspect of her domain, which also happened to be very connected to the governing body because of life in a desert.

As for the slavery part, as seen with Gormuz just because a region is associated with and "worships" a deity does not mean that the people in charge actually care about said deity or their rules. This is specially true in PF1 where gaining spells from a deity was more tied to your alignment than to following a code of conduct. Thus the colonization heavy desert empire that uses slavery ends up being supported by the military cult of the goddess of the sun and fire who want to strike down evil. And so, it ends up looking like Sarenrae supports slavery, when in reality she most likely dislikes it.

TL;DR Blame the mortals not the god for anything weird in the lore.

[Claxon]

Yeah....I would call your take on what happened... not wholly incorrect, but definitely not correct either.

Remember, this happened nearly 4000 years before Absalom would be founded, and came on the heels of sealing the universe's greatest evil.

The lore we have doesn't go into great detail, but presumably the people of Gormuz were being corrupted by the influence of Rovagug. And after trying many different "soft" methods of saying "Please leave", Sarenrae did in fact smite the entire city (or corrupted people). This hand the unintended consequence of open a tiny portion of Roagug's prison that let out his spawn.

You would be correct to say that it was a hot-headed a stupid thing to do, instead of finding less "intense" method of getting people to leave. But having your herald killed would certainly set someone off. In this, Sarenrae is like fallible human. And probably one in the years since she has tried to be more forgiving and focus on redemption.

[The Ronyon]

Can a God withdraw granted powers as they see fit?
Did she withdraw her blessings of power from those who aligned themselves with slavery?
Did she withdraw her blessings of power from those who insisted on founding the city there?

It's fun to ask these questions, and
truthfully,a god that has mixed moral stances feels more like real life than one that is morally consistent.

[Trixleby]

I just want to know if Khorne exists here, and if he doesn't what the closest god to Khorne is. Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne. Let the Galaxy Burn.

[Temperans]

Trixleby wrote:

I just want to know if Khorne exists here, and if he doesn't what the closest god to Khorne is. Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne. Let the Galaxy Burn.

Closest is probably the Orc go Nulgreth. Although the phrase "Blood for Gorum!" Is just as satisfying to say.

You could even say that they do exist and its a god that came about some time between now and 38k years in the future.

[Sanityfaerie]

Trixleby wrote:

I just want to know if Khorne exists here, and if he doesn't what the closest god to Khorne is. Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne. Let the Galaxy Burn.

If you want the galaxy to burn, you're looking for Starfinder.

That said, there's no god that is exactly Khorne, but there are some that fit the same thematics. What particular bits of Khorne are you interested in?

[Trixleby]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Trixleby wrote:

I just want to know if Khorne exists here, and if he doesn't what the closest god to Khorne is. Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne. Let the Galaxy Burn.

If you want the galaxy to burn, you're looking for Starfinder.

That said, there's no god that is exactly Khorne, but there are some that fit the same thematics. What particular bits of Khorne are you interested in?

Martial Prowess, Killing Worthy Foes, Claiming Skulls as tribute, Rage, Strength, Disliking magic and Ranged combat, Not caring whence the blood flows, only that it does.

[Themetricsystem]

Gorum has, at times, been described as a PG-13 version of Khorne and has most of the same aspects to him albeit with a more "honorable" and less bloodthirsty bend to it.

[Trixleby]

Yeah. I like Gorum. Pretty much Khorne as you said. Not even sure there's much PG about it, I don't really see the difference.

[Ravingdork]

Who is Khorne?

[Themetricsystem]

Ravingdork wrote:

Who is Khorne?

Khorn is the 40k Chaos God of ... well, basically killing, destruction, and anger. Very much like Gorum but from what I understand with a much heavier dose of edge and far less thoughtfulness that is ascribed to Gorum who is more of a seasoned deadly Fighter whereas Khorn is more like an unhinged Barbarian.

[keftiu]

The Ronyon wrote:

Can a God withdraw granted powers as they see fit?

In 2e, this is explicitly true; we’ve heard of Iomedae doing it to her faithful who aren’t acting Good enough, especially those who use the Law as a shield for cruel behavior.

Canon was a lot less firm before this new edition. The Cult of the Dawnflower has been tossed out of canon, and it’s safe to assume “slavery-friendly Sarenrae” has gone with them.

[Sanityfaerie]

Themetricsystem wrote:

a much heavier dose of edge and far less thoughtfulness

This is going to be almost invariably true in any comparison between something in Warhammer 40K and any kind of rough equivalent in Pathfinder/Starfinder.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The Ronyon wrote:

Can a God withdraw granted powers as they see fit?

Did she withdraw her blessings of power from those who aligned themselves with slavery?
Did she withdraw her blessings of power from those who insisted on founding the city there?

It's fun to ask these questions, and
truthfully,a god that has mixed moral stances feels more like real life than one that is morally consistent.

With the slave-holding nations and the Cult of the Dawnflower, it was less a withdrawal of power and more a mass vision. Sarenrae straight up told her most devout priests they should use their political capital to advocate for the abolition of slavery and they were like, "OK, thanks for the update!" while also telling the Cult of the Dawnflower they were misinterpreting her will and since most members of the Cult, despite their flaws, were still devout Sarenites, their reaction was "Oh shoot, we messed up there! We gotta fix this stuff. Thank you, Sarenrae!"

For the Pit of Gormuz, it's unclear as to how many worshipers there were faithful enough to have spellcasting from her, especially since followers that devout would likely have listened to her earlier warnings. And it's repeatedly stated that what Sarenrae did there was a mistake. A mistake she acknowledges and regrets. That's part of WHY redemption is such a big part of her portfolio: she knows what it's like to have made a catastrophic mistake in your haste or anger, and that it is possible to be better. She probably regards the excusing of slavery as a similar mistake, though not as world-ending, and this time caused by being too hands-off as opposed to intervening too directly with the Pit of Gormuz.

What Sarenrae is meant to illustrate is that a god has to walk a tight balance between intervining and letting mortals figure their own morality without handholding and that they aren't perfect beings.

[Trixleby]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Who is Khorne?

Khorn is the 40k Chaos God of ... well, basically killing, destruction, and anger. Very much like Gorum but from what I understand with a much heavier dose of edge and far less thoughtfulness that is ascribed to Gorum who is more of a seasoned deadly Fighter whereas Khorn is more like an unhinged Barbarian.

For me it was the Age of Sigmar version, but yes. It's the same god in both, I just prefer Fantasy to Sci-Fi and therefore Age of Sigmar to 40k, and believe it or not, Pathfinder to Starfinder :P

Edit: For a question actually on topic...

How is Matt Mercer and the Critical Role cast able to use Sarenrae as a divinity in their lore/world? The uh Druid girl apparently follows her.

Also is the Raven Queen from Pathfinder, or D&D, or both? Does D&D and Pathfinder share gods?

What happens to said gods from the OGL thing?

[PossibleCabbage]

It's consistent with "being the fire god" that sometimes you let things get out of control what with the nature of fire and all.

[Thebazilly]

Trixleby wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Who is Khorne?

Khorn is the 40k Chaos God of ... well, basically killing, destruction, and anger. Very much like Gorum but from what I understand with a much heavier dose of edge and far less thoughtfulness that is ascribed to Gorum who is more of a seasoned deadly Fighter whereas Khorn is more like an unhinged Barbarian.

For me it was the Age of Sigmar version, but yes. It's the same god in both, I just prefer Fantasy to Sci-Fi and therefore Age of Sigmar to 40k, and believe it or not, Pathfinder to Starfinder :P

Edit: For a question actually on topic...

How is Matt Mercer and the Critical Role cast able to use Sarenrae as a divinity in their lore/world? The uh Druid girl apparently follows her.

Also is the Raven Queen from Pathfinder, or D&D, or both? Does D&D and Pathfinder share gods?

What happens to said gods from the OGL thing?

Critical Role started out playing Pathfinder 1e and borrowed Sarenrae from there for their own setting.

The Raven Queen is from 4th Edition D&D, but is also a decent crossover for Pharasma, another Pathfinder deity.

[Sanityfaerie]

Trixleby wrote:

Also is the Raven Queen from Pathfinder, or D&D, or both? Does D&D and Pathfinder share gods?

There are a number of shared gods, but then Pathfinder has a number of shared gods with the real world, too. In the case of the Raven Queen, she was 3e material as a goddess in the Forgotten Realms (along with her people, the Shadar-kai) and came in that way. (PF1 was built on top of D&D 3.5)

Sarenrae is Pathfinder-origial, though. The thing there was because Critical Role started out in PF1 and then switched over to 5e. The character had worshiped Sarenrae as a Pathfinder character, and it would have been weird to swap faiths just because of the system change.

Edit: On further examination, it looks like the Raven Queen may have started with 4e. The Shadar-kai were 3e, but I'm not seeing the connection back with the 3e version. I'm... not entirely sure why Paizo would have imported a 4e deity?

Edit edit: they didn't. Raven queen isn't a Pathfinder thing at all.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The reason Sarenrae wound up in Critical Role was because the campaign that would eventually become Critical Role actually started as a Pathfinder game when it was being played privately.

When Geek and Sundry picked it up, Matt Mercer and company changed systems to 5e D&D, which was more familiar to Geek and Sundry's audience, but Sarenrae was carried over from a lore perspective and mashed in with deities from 4e D&D like Erathis and Melora, and as Critical Role continued Exandria steadily became its own setting and Mercer et al moved towards using placeholder titles like the Everlight and Wildmother to avoid any copyright conflicts with either Wizards or Paizo, and I imagine going forward as Critical Role spins off into its own roleplaying game much like Pathfinder did from D&D, the Everlight is going to continue to develop and become distinct from Sarenrae.

EDIT: Thebazilly and Sanityfaerie beat me to it, and much more concisely too!

[keftiu]

The Raven Queen is from 4e’s core setting, the Nentir Vale; Critical Role began as a 4e campaign before switching to PF1e (and eventually switching again to 5e as they began streaming). She only came to the Realms with 5e, where they’ve demoted her to some kind of Shadow Plane power and made the Shadar-Kai elves for some reason. There is no Raven Queen in Pathfinder canon.

That’s why Exandria’s pantheon is the 4e gods (Avandra, Torog, etc) plus Sarenrae, as their Sarenite Cleric joined during the PF1 times.

[Trixleby]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

The reason Sarenrae wound up in Critical Role was because the campaign that would eventually become Critical Role actually started as a Pathfinder game when it was being played privately.

When Geek and Sundry picked it up, Matt Mercer and company changed systems to 5e D&D, which was more familiar to Geek and Sundry's audience, but Sarenrae was carried over from a lore perspective and mashed in with deities from 4e D&D like Erathis and Melora, and as Critical Role continued Exandria steadily became its own setting and Mercer et al moved towards using placeholder titles like the Everlight and Wildmother to avoid any copyright conflicts with either Wizards or Paizo, and I imagine going forward as Critical Role spins off into its own roleplaying game much like Pathfinder did from D&D, the Everlight is going to continue to develop and become distinct from Sarenrae.

EDIT: Thebazilly beat me to it, and much more concisely too!

Well, really the only reason I ask is because while Pyke in the TV show does often refer to the Everlight, the Druid girl (can't remember her name) name drops Sarenrae specifically.

[Ravingdork]

That's great, but where is all that information coming from and why have I never heard of it before, despite being immersed in Golarion lore since the beginning?

Spoiler:

*Rolls Recall Knowledge; rolls a natural 1*

[Mark Moreland]

Trixleby wrote:

Well, really the only reason I ask is because while Pyke in the TV show does often refer to the Everlight, the Druid girl (can't remember her name) name drops Sarenrae specifically.

That's this now? Are we talking about name-drops of Sarenrae in liveplay sessions or a scripted animated series?

[Trixleby]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Trixleby wrote:

Well, really the only reason I ask is because while Pyke in the TV show does often refer to the Everlight, the Druid girl (can't remember her name) name drops Sarenrae specifically.

That's this now? Are we talking about name-drops of Sarenrae in liveplay sessions or a scripted animated series?

If I am not mistaken, in Season 2 of the animated TV show, the Druid girl Keylith (Keyleth? IDK) name drops Sarenrae. I could be mistaken, but I thought it was interesting they have the goddess in that TV show.

Sorry the TV show is called Vox Machina on Amazon Prime.

[Mark Moreland]

Trixleby wrote:

If I am not mistaken, in Season 2 of the animated TV show, the Druid girl Keylith (Keyleth? IDK) name drops Sarenrae. I could be mistaken, but I thought it was interesting they have the goddess in that TV show.

Sorry the TV show is called Vox Machina on Amazon Prime.

Thanks! I'll look into it.

[keftiu]

I believe in the streams and published books, they've switched to calling that goddess "Raei the Everlight" to avoid any legal issues, but I haven't watched the cartoon. That'd be a funny (and potentially expensive) mistake if it made it in!

[Trixleby]

I mean I could be 100% wrong. It's been like 2 weeks since I watched the episode I thought I heard it in, or more. Eye witness testimony is the least reliable testimony because our memories are trash :( And now I am second guessing myself. Did I actually hear them say Sarenrae?

[Mark Moreland]

According to the CR wiki, they don't appear to have used Sarenrae's name or even the same epithets we use since they switched the campaign away from Pathfinder years ago.

Still, this was quite the revelation to stumble across for this non-Critter.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, it's also with noting that Everlight isn't an epithet Sarenrae uses in Pathfinder for herself. It's actually the name of her divine realm in Nirvana, so there's a degree of separation there.

[Trixleby]

Yeah. It's entirely possible I'm wrong. I just thought I heard them say her name multiple times, which confused me because they ALSO refer to the Everlight and I did not realize those were supposed to be the same being.

Now I have to watch the entire show again or I'm going to feel crazy.

[pixierose]

I would also like to point out that the Gormaz incident reads to me like a trope that does tend to happene in fantasy, folk lore, and religious stories/mythology. The very wise and old being that did something dangerously reckless in ages past but have learned and grown since then. Often because of the incident they caused. Human stories are filled with these wise mentors, aging sages, and even dieties.

[Arachnofiend]

pixierose wrote:

I would also like to point out that the Gormaz incident reads to me like a trope that does tend to happene in fantasy, folk lore, and religious stories/mythology. The very wise and old being that did something dangerously reckless in ages past but has lesrned and grown since then. Often because of the incident they caused. Human stories are filled with these wise mentors, aging sages, and even dieties.

Indeed, the gods of Golarion are not infallible and are capable of making mistakes and having regrets as is the case for many old pantheons. Which is why Rahadoum is right and you shouldn't revere any of them.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

pixierose wrote:

I would also like to point out that the Gormaz incident reads to me like a trope that does tend to happene in fantasy, folk lore, and religious stories/mythology. The very wise and old being that did something dangerously reckless in ages past but has lesrned and grown since then. Often because of the incident they caused. Human stories are filled with these wise mentors, aging sages, and even dieties.

Bingo! And it's important to note that the stuff we get in the game's text is only a small fragment of the myths, scriptures and conversations about a deity.

The Pit of Gormuz only stands out because it's one prominent story we have access to, kind of like how our idea of what Greek gods were like is filtered through what texts and fragments have survived to the modern era. There could be a wealth of myths and legends that show times Sarenrae showed people the right way to solve a problem or testimonials from redeemed villains, but those have to be made up by individual GMs.

[Mark Moreland]

The Pit of Gormuz legend is also there to show that even deities are fallible and make mistakes. Desna has a similar misstep in her past with Ghlaunder. Basically, being a god doesn't prevent someone from making mistakes or occasionally taking actions with unforeseen consequences.

[Evan Tarlton]

Mark Moreland wrote:

The Pit of Gormuz legend is also there to show that even deities are fallible and make mistakes. Desna has a similar misstep in her past with Ghlaunder. Basically, being a god doesn't prevent someone from making mistakes or occasionally taking actions with unforeseen consequences.

It gives some interesting context to Kassi Aziril. Many of her critiques of the G gods are ones they'd admit to.

[Kekkres]

to be honest, I've never been a big fan of how gods are presented in golarion, they are presented like they are the main characters of the universe on the cosmic plane, they are by in large people but more, literally in some cases, which is fine, it's good for storytelling and worldbuilding and what not. But it's REALLY not good for religion which really... doesn't exist on golation the way we understand it on earth. Religion in golarion is not a cultural thing, or even a family thing, it's not tied down to people and tradition, instead it is a very personal relationship between one person directly and their deity, there is no faith, no belief, only obedience, and duty, and the personal values and ideals you share with the god in question, and if your personal beliefs are not close enough to those of your deity you get kicked to the curb. it just feels antithetical to what religion IS.

[Sanityfaerie]

Kekkres wrote:

to be honest, I've never been a big fan of how gods are presented in golarion, they are presented like they are the main characters of the universe on the cosmic plane, they are by in large people but more, literally in some cases, which is fine, it's good for storytelling and worldbuilding and what not. But it's REALLY not good for religion which really... doesn't exist on golation the way we understand it on earth. Religion in golarion is not a cultural thing, or even a family thing, it's not tied down to people and tradition, instead it is a very personal relationship between one person directly and their deity, there is no faith, no belief, only obedience, and duty, and the personal values and ideals you share with the god in question, and if your personal beliefs are not close enough to those of your deity you get kicked to the curb. it just feels antithetical to what religion IS.

But... we've just been talking about how deities can have, and empower, even worshipers who are very, very different from them, and often at least somewhat deluded as to what their position on various matters even is.

I mean, seriously, take a look at Arazni. She has loyal followers who are LE... and loyal followers who are CG. That kind of broken base doesn't happen in worlds that are as straightjacketed as you're describing.

[Trixleby]

Gormuz and Gorum are so similar in name I thought they were the same being and I was wondering why Gorum is trapped in a pit.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm also not sure I want my TTRPG religion to look like religion in the real world, which is rather fraught. Certainly not if we also going to have those gods handing out powers.

I enjoy the personal aspect of choosing a deity. Your choice of deity being informed by your values feels much healthhier than the other way around.

[pixierose]

I'm having trouble coming up with examples at this exact moment, but I could have sworn we have seen examples of cultural or familiar worship. Actually ya know what the way Saranrae/Sister Cinder in Quest For The Frozen Flame feels like that.

I think in setting books it can feel like "main characters of the universe" maybe...but in game it doesn't really feel like that. I suppose the factor is that they main we we players interact with the gods are typically about extremely devout worshippers who get the divine powers. But most people aren't getting their divine powers from gods and I think those ones are really interesting and can get kind of messy, and cultural in a really fun ways. The also way certain deities are represented and portrayed culturally is interesting. The Gnolls in the mwangi expaanse are a great example where Calistria, Shelyn, Nethys, and Lamashtu all take on different roles in a pantheon with a familial theme to it.

[Kekkres]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

to be honest, I've never been a big fan of how gods are presented in golarion, they are presented like they are the main characters of the universe on the cosmic plane, they are by in large people but more, literally in some cases, which is fine, it's good for storytelling and worldbuilding and what not. But it's REALLY not good for religion which really... doesn't exist on golation the way we understand it on earth. Religion in golarion is not a cultural thing, or even a family thing, it's not tied down to people and tradition, instead it is a very personal relationship between one person directly and their deity, there is no faith, no belief, only obedience, and duty, and the personal values and ideals you share with the god in question, and if your personal beliefs are not close enough to those of your deity you get kicked to the curb. it just feels antithetical to what religion IS.

But... we've just been talking about how deities can have, and empower, even worshipers who are very, very different from them, and often at least somewhat deluded as to what their position on various matters even is.

I mean, seriously, take a look at Arazni. She has loyal followers who are LE... and loyal followers who are CG. That kind of broken base doesn't happen in worlds that are as straightjacketed as you're describing.

I mean, pf2e has bound all "divine classes" to be the exact same alignment as their patron, a significant tightening of it from 1e, evermore aranzi is a bit of an odd case in that she doesn't think that she, as she currently exists deserves any worship at all, she refuses to abandon any of them but she doesn't agree with any of them either, I was more referring to JJs comments on how things like the cult of the dawnflower where "mistakes"

[Squiggit]

I think faiths emphasizing esotericism and spirituality and doctrinal schisms can be really interesting.

I also think for D&D adjacent games having more grounded deities that exist as mythological figures with foibles and flaws as much as actual gods can be good.

If I had one complaint with Golarion it's that sometimes the setting can't seem to decide where to land. There are some really cool mythological aspects to the story and lore, especially the Prophecies we were getting updates on a while back, but also a degree of strong rigidity and strict transnationality that feels counter to that.

I don't think that's necessarily bad, but I do kind of wish Golarion would lean one way or the other. I'd honestly like to see more gods have obvious flaws, mistakes, or questionable aspects like some of the issues brought up in this thread.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

That kind of broken base doesn't happen in worlds that are as straightjacketed as you're describing.

While I generally agree with you, I think the obvious counterpoint is that Arazni's only that way because that's the way the mechanics and her activities as a deity are defined.

In other words, I think it wouldn't be hard to argue that rather than there being no stratjacketing, Arazni just has a weirdly shaped one.

[pixierose]

Wait Divine classes do not need to be the exact same alignment. Some have, but others got new dynamics that are even more freeing and fascinating than pf1e.
There are lawful good deities that allow for chaotic good worshippers and vice versa.
There are at least two neutral evil deities that allow for good worship.
There is a true neutral deity that allows all alignments except for chaotic evil.
There are pantheons that are made up of deities across the alignment spectrum and thus someone who worships that pantheon can't by definition match all of the deities within it.

[Kasoh]

In a more...realistic setting, there would be plenty of splits along variances in worship based on location or culture or something else. But this is a setting for a game that has rules and those rules are printed on books of which you only have so many pages and can only pay so many people to write upon them.

From a brand management perspective, its easier to say that Sarenrae is Neutral Good, her followers always try to be good in the way Sarenrae likes.

Because the book that describes the Katapash Orthodox Church of Sarenrae and how its feuding with the Central Church of Sarenrae in Absalom, but all of them really don't like the Reformed Church of Sarenrae in Taldor, while fascinating, is a niche product and causes more problems than it solves given how much discomfort the Cult of the Dawnflower put some authors in.

GMs interested in interfaith politics are encouraged to tell the stories they want to tell, but I don't think there will be any official support from Paizo on the subject. The world will probably never have that kind of detail because its simply not necessary to the purpose of Pathfinder: A game about heroes who go out on adventurers.

[lemeres]

As far as the other gods being cool with the crack... Gormuz was an "us" problem, since it was chewing through enough of the universe that the gods involved felt it was going to imminently be a "me" problem.

The cracks and the godzilla sized monsters? While the spawn would be a threat in a direct fights... that all depends on whether you can be bothered to fight them. As far as gods are concerned, that is at the level of a "you" problem.

Gods often have worshippers on multiple planets, so that is not at a scale that they view as that major in terms of damage. Godzilla sized problems can barely even threaten a continent. I think they could not even make Australia uninhabitable (although they could certainly ruin most of the major cities). So it is a tough fight, and the incentive is not enough for the major players to bother unless it directly threatens one of their interests.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

It should be clarified that there are only a handful of gods for whom "multiple players of worshippers" is likely to be true. Asmodeus is the devil figure for probably much of the universe, and Sarenrae kindled the sun's of thousands of worlds, but Iomedae was a mortal woman from Golarion who inherited the mantle of another human-god, and whatever is going on with Nethys he entered the picture in ancient Osirion.

Suffice yo say, it is not likely that the gods do not care. Rather they probably have some pointed reason not to. Perhaps they know trying to fix the hole won't actually make the problem bigger (right now the spawn arrive in a predictable and uninhabited part of the world), perhaps their noninterference agreement means those who might want to help are prevented by those who care less, perhaps there is some unknown to mortal catastrophe which may be triggered down the line by making an overt attempt to patch the hole... such as Gormuz 2 being founded a year later.