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Perhaps talk with your GM about coming back as one of the fallen previous characters that you felt had a story still to tell - but with an undead archetype. Lean into a revenge aspect if possible!
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There are some brutal encounters in Agents of Edgewatch.
Not sure how you recover if you're not enjoying the story. GM needs to get you back in if you're losing interest. If they aren't doing it from too many deaths, they should be toning down the encounters or handing out more hero points to help you survive.
Tough situation if everyone else is having fun and this is your usual game.
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There are some brutal encounters in Agents of Edgewatch.
Not sure how you recover if you're not enjoying the story. GM needs to get you back in if you're losing interest. If they aren't doing it from too many deaths, they should be toning down the encounters or handing out more hero points to help you survive.
Tough situation if everyone else is having fun and this is your usual game.
Yeah Heropoints and avoid splitting the party helps.
Or perhaps just play 1 level above the recommend level.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My first question is why do you think you need to keep playing in it? Not every game or table is for every person, and that is ok. Is this a friend group you're especially attached to playing with?
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So... your basic issue, as I read it, is that you're finding it hard to get engaged. That's happening because you previously had been engaged, and then you died, and died, and died, and having your character die out from under you while you're engaged *sucks*. It's an emotional hit. Right now, there's some part of your psyche that seriously expects that you're going to *keep* dying again and again and again, and is trying to keep you from getting engaged in order to protect you, emotionally.
And, you know, it might have a point.
So the first step is to figure out how to make sure that your characters don't die so much. Figure out why they've been dying. From the sounds of things, it's not the rest of the party. It's mostly you. How can you adjust things so that you die less? Possibly play characters that are more durable, tend to be more back-line, possibly have meaningful built-in self-heals? If your major issue was that you'd charge out in front, get surrounded, and die that way, then try playing a ranged build who'd never want to charge out in front in the first place. If your major issue was that you were playing fragile characters who got quickly overwhelmed when things went bad, then possibly play something a bit tougher and/or make sure that you invest properly in defensive and escape options. Possibly carry around some healing consumables?
Consider discussing with the GM and/or your fellow players in case they noticed things that you were doing (or not doing) that you didn't.
After you get yourself to the point where you honestly believe that it actually will be different this time (and have *reason* to believe this - lying to yourself on things like this is bad policy) I suspect that you'll find that it's easier to get engaged again.
... I can see your not going to have any chance of playing along if you are in the deep end of the pool with a beginner character at level 1...
You're the only poster fixated on level 1 characters in this scenario. The OP never mentioned what levels his character deaths were at.
I know that in our group, character deaths result in rolling up new characters of the same level as the recently deceased. So, a character death at 9th level is replaced by a new 9th level character.
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I know that in our group, character deaths result in rolling up new characters of the same level as the recently deceased. So, a character death at 9th level is replaced by a new 9th level character.
The game math doesn't really support having a party consisting of characters of different levels. A one level difference would probably be workable, but would be felt. Maybe a two level difference, but that is pushing things.
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Dooo deee dooo hummm ...
What?
...Roll up new characters.. once again the Gamemaster is not stepping up. There is no "rolling" In making characters you just pick the numbers and craft the same toon...
Seriously? You're going to nitpick the colloquial terminology because stats aren't actually rolled anymore?
And unless the GM is running pregens, it's generally not their responsibility to "step up" and provide back up characters.
... So basically, erase the old name write in another and hand the "new" Character to the Gamemaster...
Ah, yes. The twin come to avenge a fallen sibling meme; I am Jorg with the exact same abilities, skills, and gear here to avenge my fallen sibling George...
... It might just be me but if your just going to give a new character a free level boost to the current level you could just simply have the old character resurrected by a deity or high-level cleric and save a great deal of time crafting a whole new character...
Yup. It's just you, mostly.
There are in-game ways to return a character to life, and in-game reasons (too low level, availability, lack of funds, etc.) that it might not be an option, or might even fail. Not every table wants or is willing to ignore those mechanics for the mere sakes of expediency and/or convenience.
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Hey... Our group had fun with the early Agents of Edgewatch, but then the plot started getting ooky, and we had a group discussion, and decided that once we got to the end of the current story arc we were done.
For something completely different, the whole group switched to Drift Crashers, a ridiculously silly Starfinder story. It was the right choice for us.
I was in a campaign where I had a lot of issues with the GM taking agency away from me and even taking away my character to force me into an espionage scenario.
I talked to him and it got better.
But it was pretty spent at that point. And my character reflected that. It was 5e.
I multi classed out of ranger into warlock and became a bit darker. Not edge Lord but more like "screw everyone, I don't care much beyond me getting mine at this point"
I never gave the GM or the party grief but my character motivations starkly changed.
I stayed less engaged in the character as a result and pretty much just went through the motions.
I was glad when it was over if I'm honest.
My point was if you are just going to magic poof a new character to level 15 you might as will just resurrect the old character.
New characters magically poof into my campaigns at party level. A fifth player joined my campaign when the party was at 3rd level, so her new character started at 3rd level. Two more players joined at 6th level, so their characters started at 6th level. I also indulge in Paizo's public playtests of new class designs: summoner, [url="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43aev?Arkus-playtest-inventor#1"inventor,[/url] and [url="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o14?Collin-playtest-kineticist#1"kineticist[/url] by having a character of the playtest class temporarily join the ongoing campaign, at the same level as the party.
In 1980 I played in ongoing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons campaigns where new PCs joined as 1st-level characters despite the average party level being around 4th level. Those characters died frequently, but death was more expected in AD&D anyways. Playing a below-level character is not as fun as playing an on-level character, but from what I could see, the players with the above-level characters were the most bored, because they were not challenged.
Death is not expected in Pathfinder. It is always a risk and that risk drives dramatic tension, but the encounters are supposed to be manageable. Nevertheless, the risk means an occasional death. The in-game mechanic for character death is to find someone who can resurrect the dead character. If the narrative does not allow the in-game mechanic; for example, in a Rise of the Runelords campaign one player sacrificed her fighter in a dramatic death and did not want to undo that, then we default to the new-character option.
In a Paizo adventure path, the excitement mostly comes from the continuing story, not from the risk of death in combat nor the power of leveling up. The PCs did not simply defeat a golem in a trapped corridor; rather, the party defeated a golem guarding the armory of troll-conquered Fort Nunder because they needed the dragon-hunting gear of the Chernasardo Rangers to take down the black dragon Ibzairiak (scene from Pathfinder Adventure Path #116: Fangs of War). If a PC dies after the adventure and is replaced by a new character, that new character misses out on the shared adventures that the party already faced.
Dying is irrelevant you just get another Character at the same level. It is not my fault the game is flawed. If you pick the same boxes the abilities and everything remain the same. So this guys bob the guy that dyed was bill. Bill had brown hair and brown eyes where are bob here is a blonde hair and has blue eyes. Bill was a short overweight few whereas Bob here is much taller and if fit as a lumber jack. Bill likes ugly women whereas Bob here like them big burly and manly looking tall as a mountain and able to have monsters for babies. see not the same character totally different.
If you going to tell people what they can and can't play for characters, then it is time to walk away from the game. Forcing people to play an allowed character is not how the game was intended. You might as will make the character yourselves and give it to the person and say if you want to play you have to play this character.
I hold a Session Zero before my campaigns, where I tell the players what to expect in the game so that they can make appropriate characters. Before Ironfang Invasion, I told the players that the village of Phaendar would be invaded by the Ironfang Legion and their PCs would spend most of the 1st module, Pathfinder Adventure Path #115: Trail of the Hunted, hiding in the fey-infested Fangwood Forest sheltering and hiding refugee villagers from Ironfang patrols. Thus, they created high-Dexterity characters all trained in Nature, Stealth, and Survival. A champion stomping around heavy footed in heavy armor would have been a liability.
Sometimes the characters are only half appropriate, so I struggle to fit them into the story. When the tailed goblin champion Tikti joined the campaign at 3rd level, she was wandering lost in the Fangwood Forest because she was not trained in Survival. However, she was still a high-Dexterity character in light armor and trained in Stealth. I added a backstory to Tikti to explain how she got into the Fangwood and the player approved that story.
If characters are dixie cups and are completely disposable, then the players do not get invested and soon grow bored with crafting 1 or 2 new character each time they play.
They are not dixie cups and that is what is leaving Lorkan disconnected. Even an identical character, the twin brother of the recently deceased character, would have a different narrative connection to the party.
My advice to Lorkan is to follow Sanityfaerie's advice and correct the overly frequent deaths of his characters. Then further work with the GM to get a new character who is already deep in the narrative, not a character who joined the party while simply wandering by. For example, the blurb of Pathfinder Adventure Path #161: Belly of the Black Whale says, "Old enemies become new friends as the heroes work for an infamous underworld crime lord in order to prove their fealty and receive blueprints to the enchanted prison galley known as the Black Whale." Lorkan could play one of those old enemies (possibly one who was unnamed behind the scenes) who becomes a new friend. It would give his PC a unique perspective, to be an underworld criminal temporarily working with the disgraced police agents who will grow to like them and become a permanent unofficial consultant who travels with the party.
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There is also the question of... Is it time to leave the campaign? Life is too short to be in a campaign where you're unhappy and not fully engaged. If it's not working, don't drag it out.
I have learned the hard way that it is better for everyone if I leave a campaign that is not working for me.
1) the group can get a more enthusiastic newcomer who is not just going through the motions
2) I can get a fresh start somewhere else and discover my inner joy!
The biggest problem with the poof magic new character leveling is that the Gamemaster is not held accountable and has free license to murder-hobo the whole lot and just pop in Newly crafted characters. If you kill off the whole party your done your campaign failed miserably.
If you all want to continue on you get a 1st level character and the whole party carries you or you start over with another group. There has to be penalties for a bad gamemaster.
I am confused. It sounds as if XXSUPERHEROXX wants to punish both Gamemaster and the players when bad dice rolls turn a risk of death into an actual PC death. Hero points let us mitigate risk a little, but we cannot get real dramatic tension out of fake risk. Character death has to have a nonzero probability for a real risk, and the dice control how probabilities play out.
By the way, the phrase "murder hobo" refers to the player characters, not the GM. It is a roleplaying style where the PCs have no home and no agenda beyond killing monsters and accumulating loot.
I crafted a cannon fodder character today I called him Red Shirt #001. a basic 16 year old farm hand human male. The idea is that human life has no meaning to the game master or the players if you just get to continue on with information you gathered with a now dead character. The player turns in to a malevolent god who is usings humanity as chess piece. you just keep throwing bodies into a meat grinder. The fear of a failed campaign is gone you know you can just replace the dead with fresh cannon fodder.
The Golarion gods are not using adventurers as chess pieces. They have clerics and champions serving their agenda, but they value those servants.
Instead, the players are using the PCs as game pieces, because this is a game. And we handwave away the clumsiest effects of the game mechanics and try to shape the game results into a story about adventurous characters, because we players, including the GM, care about the story.
When characters stop being cherished as prized characters their just chess pieces and human life has little to no meaning the game becomes boring you lost you ultimate most favorite character now you just stop caring and burn through bodys to reach the objective no matter the loss of life. You become the monster.
There is no longer a fear of your character dying you get a new one and you continue of tell it is time to craft yet another one. I mean I can play that way I just admit I am playing as an extremely evil entity, and I throw away humans with no regard, I win in the end with a huge body count but the last character I use that comes out alive is level 20 Red Shirt #496 a 16 year old human farmboy poofed from beginner zero XP to 20th level champion in three hours play.
I have seen Dungeons & Dragons played as a combat game with minimal roleplaying and no solid story. And that is fine if the players want purely a combat game. Some classic D&D adventures, such as Tomb of Horrors, are written as survival games in which the PCs die easily. But a Paizo adventure path, such as Agents of Edgewatch, is for people who want to roleplay enduring characters.
Paizo made some mistakes in writing the early adventure paths for Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Age of Ashes and The Extinction Curse have too many Severe-threat encounters for players to handle without a lot of tactical skill. I guess Agents of Edgewatch, the third PF2 adventure path, still has some rough spots, too. Most beginning GMs lack the confidence to override the adventure path and customize the difficulty to their players' needs. And if we punish beginner GMs, then we will have fewer experienced GMs later.
You do sound like an awesome gamemaster I am just pointing out how I see it. I can play a very evil god and I can craft a lot of minions all dumb as stumps but strong as Ox's then shove them in to the gamemasters meatgrinder. It's like paper money when you need more you just print it it has no value.
I don't think that Lorkan's GM is deliberately trying to kill off Lorkan's characters. That is why part of the solution is to talk to the GM.
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If you're not enjoying a campaign anymore, the first thing I would suggest is to determine if it's the characters dying or the particular story that is where you are disconnecting.
To reply to some other posts, this is a game. It is supposed to be fun. Talking about punishing people or 'letting someone get away with something' shows an attitude that is going to be more detrimental to fun that anything you could be talking about with such language.
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XXSUPERHEROXX, we are accustomed to topic drift in these forums. Someone starts a thread with a question or experience, and the rest of us pop in with answers or further questions or tales about similar experiences. Some tales are rants where the writer is blowing off steam, and we understand that.
But I cannot tell whether you, XXSUPERHEROXX, are interpreting Lorkan's question to be about a toxic GM, making a rant about how all GMs are terrible, or suggesting we change our standard custom of replacing deceased PCs because it leads to terrible GM behavior. Since you replied to me, "It is ok If you are confused about me expressing an opinion about what I perceive as a flaw in the system," I guess it is the third case.
The GMs that I read about here in the Paizo forums are generally good. The worst problem that players complain about is a GM sticking tight to the module as written even when some encounters in it are not well suited for the particular PCs in their party. For example, they could be too deadly. A little customization would greatly improve the campaign. Customization and improvisation are skills learned from experience, so not all GMs can manage them. This does not make them bad GMs. They do not deserve the insult, "king god gamemaster bored with the role play."
And even a well-written encounter can be messed up by the dice. In my weekly game session yesterday, we began by finishing a battle against Queen Arlantia, the final boss of Prisoners of the Blight. She had low AC for her level and only 48 hp left, but had protective spells up such as Foresight. And she did not need to use Foresight, because the players repeatedly rolled low numbers on their d20s, such as 4 and 5. Then the sorcerer Honey cast Ray of Frost on Arlantia with her first two actions, when her main attack would be siccing her active Implosion on Arlantia when Honey sustained it. She rolled a natural 20 on the Ray of Frost, so Arlantia used Foresight to force a reroll. Honey's player rolled a second natural 20 on the reroll. Arlantia went down to a cantrip, despite her protective spells, due to a double natural 20.
I love telling stories about my campaigns. I run roleplaying games to entertain my friends and family (Honey is played by my 35-year-old daughter three time zones away on the west coast of the USA) and because I like the stories their characters create. If a PC died during my campaign and I could not arrange for a 9th-level Resurrect ritual, then I would try to repair the story to continue some other way and to keep the player still in it. However, I have a full GM toolbox of options, so I could probably manage a Resurrect. (Let's see, a crossover character knows a 19th-level skald spellcaster 400 miles away in northern Ustalav who could manage a 9th-level Resurrect, so I would need to provide some fast transportation and convert the skald class from PF1 to PF2.) Not all campaign settings have Resurrect available to the PCs, especially at low levels.
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The biggest problem with the poof magic new character leveling is that the Gamemaster is not held accountable and has free license to murder-hobo the whole lot and just pop in Newly crafted characters.
Yes. And because that is indeed the biggest problem with bringing in new characters at current party level, that is what I will continue using and recommending. That is a problem that is easily mitigated with an appropriate attitude from the other players at the table.
Broken math of mismatched character levels is not.
If you all want to continue on you get a 1st level character and the whole party carries you or you start over with another group.
Try playing this with a character that you actually want to use and see how much fun it is.
There has to be penalties for a bad gamemaster.
I crafted a cannon fodder character today I called him Red Shirt #001. a basic 16 year old farm hand human male. The idea is that human life has no meaning to the game master or the players if you just get to continue on with information you gathered with a now dead character. The player turns in to a malevolent god who is usings humanity as chess piece. you just keep throwing bodies into a meat grinder. The fear of a failed campaign is gone you know you can just replace the dead with fresh cannon fodder.
This sound toxic. If I was the GM I would cut you from my game.
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It's a game I am there to have fun
For a lot of people, that hyper combative and toxic attitude is pretty much the opposite of fun.
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You should never force level disparity on players. That is the epitome of bad play and a sure way to make everyone's unhappy at the table
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PF2 different levels is terrible.
It wasn't great in any edition, but it is particularly terrible in PF2. I would never do that to a player.
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Playing at disparate levels is mathematically infeasible. That is completely off the table.
Character deaths happen. Rarely, generally, but it does happen. And the risk of it happening is necessary for the game to be meaningful. It is not bad GMing to have a character die.
There may be problems if characters die regularly, or if one player's characters are dying more often than the others. But that could be a problem with any number of things.
It could be that the one player is not building viable characters. No, a Sorcerer does not become a front-line melee brawler by having the Glutton's Jaws focus spell.
It could be that the GM is specifically targeting that one player and their characters.
It could be that the player is playing their characters too altruistically and self-sacrificing themselves.
With the limited information that we have from the OP, I can't really make a determination of that.
What I can say is that if a character dies, and the player wants to continue playing the game - they need to either have their character resurrected in-game somehow, or bring in a new character of the same level as the rest of the party.
If the GM insists that the new character come in at 1st level, that is horribly broken. That is going to be a severe hindrance to that character and the player will no longer have any fun playing in that game. That is a toxic attitude to have. Either that or that GM has no fundamental understanding of the math of the game.
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"Your character died, so you don't get to play with us any more" is also a rather bad attitude for a GM to have.
I was of thought the original poster was a beginner which places the issue at the feet of the gamemaster they are not stepping up.
Ah, I have seen Lorkan post here before. I looked up his ealier posts. The first was five months ago in September 2022. He had asked in Got petrified, now what? about his character being petrified by a cockatrice. He started that post with, "Hi, my group is very new to Pathfinder," so Lorkan has less tnan a year of PF2 experience.
I wonder whether that petrification was one of the character deaths. The cockatrice's Calcification is a temporary effect, since 3rd-level characters don't have access to Stone to Flesh, but rolling a critical failure on the DC 20 Fortitude check for recovery results in permanent petrification that requires Stone to Flesh. And 11 days later he asked, Which class to play?- "So, my first character just died. Yey. I need a new one, but I don't know that much about the different classes."
Yeah, the campaign has been rough on Lorkan's characters.
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... You kill all of your players it's over. You do not get to replace characters with poof characters it cheapens the game...
You do not get to dictate the terms of others' play nor decide the value of their experiences.
... You are cheating as simple as that...
Really? Please, by all means, cite the general rule(s) of Pathfinder that stipulate that:
Hint: There are none. Your allegations of cheating because you don't agree with how things are generally handled is beyond the pale.
Your toxicity makes me wish for a mute option on these forums.
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How and when a character gets replaced is a narrative process that gets handled in-game. Yes, having a new character teleport into the middle of a remote location would be grating. It is also not very standard. Normally the remaining party has to go back to a settlement of some variety and recruit a new party member.
And the consequences of this is that the new character is new. They have to actually join the party.
This attitude of
you simply take another one out of the many in your portfolio zero XP level one poof current level with the full knowledge of the dead character.
is called Metagaming - where the character gets to magically know all the information that the player knows. It is a style of game play that is pretty much universally despised.
The new character will probably be filled in on the broad information about the happenings in the story so far. Likely even off-screen because none of the other players at the table really feel like creating a summary that the player with the replacement character already knows.
But that new character is going to have to establish their own personal connections to the other player characters. And the GM is going to have to rework some of their details and personalizations of the campaign to account for this new character and the loss of the old one.