There is no point in making a strength based one handed combatant is there?

[Malik Gyan Daumantas]

Unless you're a magus on a tight budget, the entire idea of a strength based duelist is kind of redundant and a waste of time isnt it?

[Claxon]

I mean, you can be a strength based sword and shield user focusing without TWF and it's valid, even if it's not the most optimized build.

In fact, I would say it's especially iconic for a paladin to be such.

Unless you mean keeps one hand explicitly empty with no use for weapon/shield because it's reserved for other things.

[Gustaaf D. Goud]

One handed like keeping one hand free, or one handed weapon usage. If it’s the last one you could look in to two weapon warrior.

[Kasoh]

Depends on what you want. There's Free Hand Fighter archetype, and I think there's a fighting style feat chain to the concept.

This is pathfinder though. If you're playing a Full BaB/D10 class with high strength and power attack you can play almost anything you want and still be good enough to win fights so long as everyone else is also doing their job.

But in terms of making it worthwhile?

You have to get something out of the free hand that warrants giving up another attack (Twf), extra damage (Two Handed Weapon), or Defense (Shield).

A disarm build lets you take the disarmed object directly into your hand. Maybe useful, maybe not.

What you're going to end up with is probably some kind of manuever+weapon build. Dirty Fighting or even grappling. Get a hold of someone and attack. Which when it works, it really works.

[Trokarr]

Strong-side Boxer Brawler works really well as a strength based one handed build.

[Claxon]

A whip tripper build can be effective. I can't recall build specifics but it can be interesting.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I know it is not as popular as a two-handed build, but a weapon and shield build can still be fairly effective. I am not talking about using a shield as an extra attack; I am talking about using a shield for defense. A normal shield only gives a +2 bonus, but it can be enchanted for a larger bonus. Purchasing +3 Full Plate and a +3 Shield costs 19820 GP, a suit of +4 Plate costs 17650 GP. You get a lot more AC per gold with the shield. If given the chance, would you buy a magic item that gave you +4 AC for 2170 GP? That is exactly what you are getting with the +3 armor and shield over the +4 armor.

A defensive build can crank up the AC pretty high. A 12th level paladin with a defensive build can get around a 35 AC at 12th level without smite evil. Smite evil will bring it up to about 37 (CHA is a deflection bonus so does not stack with ring of protection). A character with that high of an AC will likely have the GM coming to the forums complaining about not being able to deal with the paladin without killing the rest of the party.

[Mark Hoover 330]

What exactly is your measure of success here? I'm guessing this thread is more of a grenade toss to gather responses, but I'm genuinely curious why you'd say there's "no point" to a Str based build using a 1h weapon.

You will certainly not win the DPR Olympics with this build, but the PC is far from useless. Take ANY Medium sized, 3/4 or Full BAB PC, start them with an 18 Str (after racial adjustments) and give them a d8 weapon. This PC is already guaranteed to hit 60% of the time or more against foes whose CR equals the APL of the party, if you're using the benchmarks laid out in the Monster Creation rules. That's before you factor in class abilities or feats, but if you follow WBL.

At least, you'll keep that up for L1-L3. After that you'll need damage and accuracy boosters. Good thing WBL and feats provide magic items, Power Attack and Weapon Focus. But why are you leaving the other hand empty though?

Maybe you're also focusing defensively through shield use, Dirty Trick or Free Hand Fighter. Maybe you've got a bunch of Style feats dependent on either having an empty hand or partnering weapon attacks with unarmed strikes. Could be an unchained monk or a brawler; maybe like you said you are a Magus; maybe you're built around Precision damage when a foe is denied their Dex bonus but you went the Grapple/Greater Grapple so you can pin AND deliver a chunk of damage with a light weapon in the same round.

Thing is, NONE of those are going to look appealing if your goal and benchmarks revolve around DPR optimization at all costs. If you're just theory crafting and want to hit the highest possible number, 1h weapon just isn't going to get there. That's my 2cp anyway.

[Mikemad]

If a build has to measure up to an archer MAC to be worth considering, you're gonna find this game becomes the opposite of fun real fast.

[MrCharisma]

An Occultist maybe? Trappings obviously rewarde Sword-and-Board, but even without that the shield might be more valuable to you than the bonus damage. Occultists can get pretty rediculius damage bonuses, so you don't necessarily need to min-max that.

If you're talking about a 1-handed weapon without a shield then there probably isn't much.

You can make a STR-based Swashbuckler if you want to. It'll deal slightly more damage than a DEX-based one, and honestly aside from the AC you'll be fine STR-based.

[Mightypion]

My main problem with shield and board on 6 casters is getting a hand free for spells with somatic components.

[Ryze Kuja]

Wonderstell created a Str-based Reposition Maneuver specialist that broke the DPR Olympics with an infinite damage build a few years back.

[Melkiador]

You could have a strength investigator using a rapier. Almost no one ever actually does that, but it's not really a bad idea.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Once again, it'd take several levels to come on board but

Human Hunter 6; you need Int and Dex both at 13, and then pump Str as high as you can

L1 Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes
L2 Bonus Outflank
L3 Archon Style
L3 Bonus Paired Opportunists
L6 retrain any L5 feat to Archon Diversion
L6 bonus Pack Flanking

At this point in melee with your AC the Hunter and AC are considered Flanking even if adjacent. They're also threatening the same foe. Your PC can use Archon Diversion and a free hand to deflect on weapon attack from their AC as a move action, directing that attack to themselves. As a result, this triggers an AoO for the AC.

With Paired Opportunists this gives the PC an AoO as well. All AoO's are at +4 to hit for both of you. If anyone crits and confirms, thanks to Outflank, that's another AoO trigger.

In a full attack round that's an attack from you, then an attack from your AC, followed by you or your AC diverting one of your foe's attacks, delivering 2 more AoOs (one from each of you). Add in Haste and baby we got a STEW goin'!

[Raudabjorn Kjallaksson]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

A defensive build can crank up the AC pretty high. A 12th level paladin with a defensive build can get around a 35 AC at 12th level without smite evil. Smite evil will bring it up to about 37 (CHA is a deflection bonus so does not stack with ring of protection). A character with that high of an AC will likely have the GM coming to the forums complaining about not being able to deal with the paladin without killing the rest of the party.

My waraxe-and-shield stonelord paladin hits those numbers pretty solidly. His AC means that most of the damage he takes is from area attack spells, not weapons--and it still takes a lot to take him down. He's not the biggest damage-dealer (the archetype loses smite) but does enough that foes can't afford to ignore him when he's up in their face.

[Chell Raighn]

Mightypion wrote:

My main problem with shield and board on 6 casters is getting a hand free for spells with somatic components.

This is why sword & board casters are usually either Psychic or Divine spellcasters… psychic dont need a free hand for spellcasting and Divine casters can explicitly cast with a shield in hand as if they had a free hand… for Arcane sword & board spellcasters there is the Skirni Magus… otherwise an arcane spellcaster needs to avoid spells with somatic components if they wish to use sword & board.

[Melkiador]

Mightypion wrote:

My main problem with shield and board on 6 casters is getting a hand free for spells with somatic components.

It's a bit wonky, but it works fine with a light shield.

Quote:

A light steel shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

So you can move your weapon to your shield hand as a free action, then cast your spell and then move the weapon to your free hand as another free action.

[UnArcaneElection]

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Unless you're a magus on a tight budget, the entire idea of a strength based duelist is kind of redundant and a waste of time isnt it?

A Magus on not such a tight budget will also often come out as a Strength-based one-hander -- you actually have to go to some really serious tradeoffs to be not a one-hander as a Magus (whether Strength-based or Dexterity-based).

[MrCharisma]

Melkiador wrote:

Mightypion wrote:

My main problem with shield and board on 6 casters is getting a hand free for spells with somatic components.

It's a bit wonky, but it works fine with a light shield.

Or a Psychic caster who doesn't have somatic components.

[Claxon]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

Unless you're a magus on a tight budget, the entire idea of a strength based duelist is kind of redundant and a waste of time isnt it?

A Magus on not such a tight budget will also often come out as a Strength-based one-hander -- you actually have to go to some really serious tradeoffs to be not a one-hander as a Magus (whether Strength-based or Dexterity-based).

Yeah, good point. People play dex magi primarily because of point buy or bad rolls.

But if you had a stat array (I give a generous one in PF1 of 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11) it's a lot easier to put 16/15 in strength and int, 14 in dex, and go about your business. It just takes a significant effort/cost to get dex to damage for magus (or most anyone), and without it your damage takes a significant hit. It's mostly a problem at lower levels (say before level 7) but that's still a significant portion of play.

Of course, getting to a point where you can ignore strength with dex to damage is going to be more optimized than needing both strength and dex, but I think it makes the lower level play experience much more challenging.

And if your GM doesn't let you get agile weapons (already a significant cost) then you get shoehorned into very specific builds.

[Wonderstell]

I can see some advantages with a Str duelist build, but most of the time Dex will be better. Being feat starved edges you towards Strength, as does wanting the advantage of being able to switch grip for extra damage.

You could for example make a Crane Wing/Stylish Riposte (from One-Handed weapon tricks) build that attacks during their turn with 1.5x Str and PA, but switches to a one-handed stance when you're done to benefit from the feats since they're most useful out of turn.

If you used an Estoc you could even use feats exclusive to one-handed and two-handed weapons depending on your grip. Pushing Assault with two hands, Stylish Riposte with one hand.

[Melkiador]

I think the magus issue is that they start with light armor, so without going dex they are a little squishy for a melee class.

[Claxon]

Melkiador wrote:

I think the magus issue is that they start with light armor, so without going dex they are a little squishy for a melee class.

In the beginning they can be for sure, although mage armor does help reduce the issue until they can get medium armor.

[Derklord]

How does Mage Armor solve the issue that 5 AC from armor and dex isn't enough?

[Dragonchess Player]

If you're looking for a "strength based duelist" concept, then you may not be happy with the available options.

For a more general "strength based one handed combatant," the options are more viable.

Even when not going TWF/shield bash, a shield (even if just a buckler) is useful to increase AC while fighting with a one-handed weapon.

Getting Dex to damage requires specific investments (opportunity cost) in classes/archetypes, feats, or magic items to gain what Str adds normally.

Also, PF1 just has more ways to boost Str than there are to boost Dex: rage (urban barbarians can choose to boost Dex), mutagens (can also be used for Dex), Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal or Orc bloodline)/Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss or Strength of the Beast), and/or the dragon disciple PrC. It may be "worthwhile" to start with 14 Str, 16 Dex at 1st level and use the Str-boosting options as the character levels up: For a Str-based magus example, magus 4/skald (spell warrior) 1/dragon disciple (advance magus spellcasting) 4/magus +11 may not gain as many arcana but they only lose 2 levels of spell progression and gain +4 Str, +3 natural armor, and the Enhance Weapons weapon song in addition to their arcane pool; with a moderate Cha (13 + a pink and green sphere ioun stone) and three feats (Skill Focus, which might be gained from a racial trait*, Eldritch heritage, Improved Eldritch Heritage), this character can increase Str much faster and higher than they can increase Dex.

*- half-elf Adaptability or human Focused Study