It doesn't work so well.
You have to maintain each instance of the spell as an action and so the spell requires 2 actions to cast. I think there is a least one feat that will let you maintain the spell for free.
So you cap out at 3 summons. If you don't maintain the spells, they'll literally run away. Technically their exact actions are left to the GM if you don't issue orders but running away seems to meet their capacity.
I don't think Silentstrike777 is talking about the Summoner class or even necessarily summoning spells.
Summoning spells (Summon Animal, Summon Elemental, ...) would certainly be one way of doing what is asked for - having something disposable to occupy the enemy actions with. And yes, those cost actions each round to sustain. But I would also look at the various Wall spells (Wall of Thorns, Wall of Water, Wall of Stone, ...) and maybe some difficult terrain or trapping spells like Mud Pit, Phantom Prison, or Murderous Vine. Those have a listed duration, so don't need any further action after casting them.
It'd be awesome if as I were to get to higher level I essentially got to creating an army for the larger fights but who knows if thats possible.
Generally, no. In older editions you could summon a lower level of creature than your maximum in return for getting more creatures onto the battlefield. In PF2 that doesn't work. You have to sustain each summoning spell individually and you only get one creature per spell.
I know this game can be made to work like dynasty warriors where you're one guy culling everyone, can we make it work in reverse?
You can summon swarms though.
For example, Summon Animal can be used to summon a Rat Swarm. It will have much of the same look and description of overrunning your enemy with a horde of creatures that would be inconsequential individually. But mechanically it behaves as one single large creature.
A witch with the animate dead spell and Cackle is a good start. Bonus if you make it Baba Yaga witch, for the Spirit Object hex for more 'summoning' flavor by saying it's summoning a spirit into the object.
Summoning spells rely on their utility rather than their combat power, so even if you could summon lots of peons to interfere, they'd be laid low with one AoE, which a lot of monsters have. It'd take a lot of the caster's resources for little gain.
As well as the workarounds that breithaupt delineated (especially wall spells if your aim is to occupy the enemy), consider illusions if you merely want disposable targets on the field.
Easy! Be an Illusionist!
The only 2 spells that you need to do what you asked.
Increase Deception and Stealth.
My goblin wizard had many good laughs in EC using them.
As mentioned, Witch with Cackle is good for this, because you can cast a three-action summons on the same turn you sustain a spell. If you want more slots, you can go with a Wizard who multiclasses into Witch for the feat.
There are a few sustainable "summoning" spells that are only two actions: Illusory Creature (as mentioned) for arcane/occult and Spiritual Guardian for divine- this one actually provides very direct damage mitigation. (I'm ruling out anything that can't provide the flanking you want.) Both of these are nice, because you can have two up at once without any feats or actions, and Cackle (or eventually Effortless Concentration on a class that gets it) allows you to have three up at a time.
The Shadowcaster or Shadowdancer archetypes can get you a dim-light/darkness-limited focus spell version of Illusory Creature, [https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=663]Shadow Illusion[/url]. That's a nice addition to keep your spell slots freed up.
Beastbrood tieflings get a few feats with Illusory Creature if you want to supplement your abilities- especially if you go divine caster for Spiritual Guardian.
I agree with Temperans, if you are trying to make a Diablo 2 Necromancer/Druid character it will not work.
That's said summon maybe not the best thing a caster can do but isn't soo bad as it's look. It's depends from what you are summoning and for what.
In general summon to DPS or Tank is inviable due the summons lower levels but summon spells could be a very flexible strategy to support and spellcasting. For example, Summon Celestial can summon creatures like Lillends giving a "summoned bard" that can support entire party and use an extra lvl 4 heal if nescessary, Summon Fiend can allow you to summon Night Hag and use it as sustainable magic missile turret or even Summon Dragon can be very useful specially if your GM allows you to summon spellcaster dragons this can even allow an arcane spellcaster to have access to some divine spells if you summon a silver/golden spellcaster dragon.
About class, all 3, wizard, witch and summoner are good choices, each one with it's own advantages/disadvantages:
Wizards with conjuration school can cast 5-6 top level summons if prepare all top spellslot with summon spells + Drain Bonded Item and Augment Summoning can give +1 for "everything" in your summoned creatures, the downside is that you can't have more than 1-2 summons at time (2 if you have Effortless Concentration).
Witches can use cackle to sustain a summon while cast another one at 1 focus point cost. The downside is that the class has half or less top level summons per day than a Wizard.
Summoners can use Act Together to use 1-action with Eidolon while cast a summon spell but in order to summon 3 top level summons it also needs to use feats and need to prepapare as spellslot for it.
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Ironically, "Summoner" is easily the worst at actually summoning.
Well, I'm not so sure about worst. There are several other casting classes that I think would be worse at the actual summoning part of it.
And there are only a couple of classes that can arguably be better at it - Witch can have more summon spells active at once from an early level and Wizard can cast more summon spells each day. Also Wizard with the right school can get a bit of a boost to their summoned creatures.
But summoner does have several class feats that can boost the effectiveness of each summon spell that they cast. Ostentatious Arrival can add a bit of damage for no additional action cost. And Boost Summons lets you apply the Boost Eidolon spell on all of your summoned creatures and your Eidolon all at the same time. Summoner can also get Effortless Concentration at high level, which does let them get two summoned creatures out at a time.
And as far as falling back to something when summon spell slots are exhausted, the Summoner would fall back to their Eidolon's physical damage and cantrips.
We already determined that summoning a quantity of creatures for a single battle is not feasible in PF2, so I'm not sure why that is your measurement tool for this comparison.
Unless you are casting summon spells from spell slots 3 or more levels below your maximum, Summoner has almost as many spell slots as the non-Wizard classes. Four slots of those two levels instead of six. Five if they take Master Summoner at level 6.
And that is if we are counting both of those top two spell levels as being effective. There is a good argument to be made that only the highest level slots will create a usable summoned creature. At which point with Master Summoner it is three slots for both.
Wizard doesn't have an easier time sustaining multiple summon spells. Both Wizard and Summoner can spend a class feat at level 16 to get Effortless Concentration.
Yes, making a Summoner into a top tier summoning spell caster takes a bit of investment. It does for the other classes too.
Cackle costs a feat. Or two if pulling it from the Witch Archetype. And summoning a quantity of creatures is more of a parlor trick than an effective battle strategy. So Cackle would be best used to allow sustaining one summoned creature while doing other things during the round. It also costs a focus point each round that it is used.
Augment Summoning costs the Wizard's School choice. And can only be cast at earliest on the second round that the summoned creature is in play - which means that the Wizard won't be casting another 2 action spell that round without Effortless Concentration, and can't cast another 3 action summoning spell that round even with Effortless Concentration.
Effortless Concentration costs a feat. A high level one too.
Bard only gets Summon Fey at spell level 2 or Summon Entity at spell level 5, unless they pay two class feats and either their first level muse choice, or a third class feat. It would also cost the Polymath off-tradition spell choice to actually have a different summoning spell available to cast. And there is the action opportunity cost - when sustaining a summoning spell, that means that the bard isn't Harmonize casting Inspire Courage and Dirge of Doom.
In short, it doesn't feel like you are giving a fair comparison. It seems like you are minimizing the costs of other classes getting into summoning, and downplaying the benefits that the Summoner has.
"Summoner" is spending 2 feats to get those 2 10th level spells, 1 9th level spells. & 2 8th level spells. Literally all other casters except Magus has 1+ 10th level spells, 3 9th level spells, 3 8th level spells, plus all the other spell slots which give QUANTITY.
I'm trying to look at this from practical theorycrafting rather than whiteroom theorycrafting. So not just at 20th level character.
The 'quantity' of summoning that the OP wanted was in one battle. Being able to summon 6-8 low level creatures and swarm an on-level enemy with them all at the same time. That doesn't work in PF2.
What you seem to be talking about by saying 'quantity' is having multiple battles during the day. What I would call longevity rather than quantity.
So I am doing the math just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something when I am talking about the number of slots.
An 8th level Summoner can cast level 4 spells. And level 3 spells, but I am looking at the 4th level ones for now. The summoner themselves probably has a +10 attack bonus with strength melee weapons. Maybe a +12 with dex weapons like a crossbow or finesse dagger.
An 8th level creature typical stats from the Building Creatures tables have:
AC 27
Saves +13 to +19
HP 140
A max level (4th level) Summon Elemental spell can summon a level 3 creature such as a Sod Hound
Attack bonus +11 so needs to roll a 16 to hit.
damage 1d10 +6 = 11.5 points - or more than 10 hits to kill.
This is a pretty minor threat to the 8th level creature. It will likely be ignored and so it might be able to do some minor damage before the battle ends. And if it doesn't get ignored, then the enemy has spent some actions destroying it - which is probably a better outcome for the PC party.
A max -3 level (1st level) Summon Animal spell that a Wizard can cast for quantity can summon a level -1 creature such as a Red Fox
Attack bonus +9 so needs to roll a 18 to hit.
damage 1d6 -2 = 1.5 points of damage - so needs over 70 hits to kill.
This isn't even worth bothering with. This is certainly going to be ignored. And it isn't going to do damage worth mentioning. So it is just a waste of a spell slot and the actions to cast and maintain it.
You are complain about other classes spending 2 feats, when "summoner" is spending 4 for a worse result. Heck "summoner" can't even use the incarnation summon spells well.
I'm not sure how you are getting 'worse' as the result. A level 8 Summoner casting a 4th level summon spell has the same base result as a level 8 Druid casting a 4th level summon spell. Feats like Ostentatious Arrival or Boost Summons make that better - not worse.
Yes, a character built to be a good summoner has to spend feats to be good at summoning. That is not any different than any other class built for any other role. Even a Witch or Wizard built for summoning has to spend class feats on it if not class features. A Monk built for grappling also has to spend class feats on it in order to really be good at it.
Finally, what the heck are you talking about bard using harmonize inspire courage + dirge of doom? Are you really going to sit there saying "oh bard is bad because they are vastly better and have multiple ways to buff their summons? So what if they can't inspire + dirge, they are buffing every ally or debuffing every enemy while your "summoner" is giving a measly 8 damage. Idk about you but frightened to all enemies is a lot better than +8 damage.
My point with this is that if you are building a Bard to be a fantastic summoner, what are you trying to accomplish? Doing the summoning is going to come at the cost of being a Bard. Which is fine - but it is going to cost you something.
You can also do that with a Summoner class. Again it will cost you something. There are other ways to build a Summoner class character than by focusing on summoning spells. So it is perfectly reasonable that such things are class feats rather than being class features.
As I'm sure others pointed out, this playstyle is not something that PF2E supports very well. Has not been a thing in the past and it will probably never will. Back in pf1 this playstyle was a nightmare to deal with and it seems they don't want to mess with it at all.
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As I'm sure others pointed out, this playstyle is not something that PF2E supports very well. Has not been a thing in the past and it will probably never will. Back in pf1 this playstyle was a nightmare to deal with and it seems they don't want to mess with it at all.
It was a super fun playstyle. It was a nightmare to deal with, especially if you had unprepared players who didn't think about what they were going to do from round to round.
I still wish summoning was better though. They really need to do something with the attack roll. I wouldn't care about the 5 plus levels lower damage and other abilities if the summoned creature could land hits and do some damage in important fights. They seem to have miscalculated how well a summoned creature can hit a target the more levels it falls behind the monster levels you're fighting.
As I'm sure others pointed out, this playstyle is not something that PF2E supports very well. Has not been a thing in the past and it will probably never will. Back in pf1 this playstyle was a nightmare to deal with and it seems they don't want to mess with it at all.It was a super fun playstyle. It was a nightmare to deal with, especially if you had unprepared players who didn't think about what they were going to do from round to round.
I still wish summoning was better though. They really need to do something with the attack roll. I wouldn't care about the 5 plus levels lower damage and other abilities if the summoned creature could land hits and do some damage in important fights. They seem to have miscalculated how well a summoned creature can hit a target the more levels it falls behind the monster levels you're fighting.
I think most people found it fun (me included), but most of the time it was extremely boring for the other players and the GM, even when you were experienced with it.
And yes, summons should definitely be better. Now that Paizo seems more proactive with errata, I really hope we eventually see a small buff to the heightened versions of these kind of spells. Will most likely not be enough for it to be like it was back in pf1, but with some help it could at least be viable in combat.
Summon a Troop. Use rituals if you need to do make them out of dead things.
That's your hoard right there.
In short, it doesn't feel like you are giving a fair comparison. It seems like you are minimizing the costs of other classes getting into summoning, and downplaying the benefits that the Summoner has.
"Summoner" is spending 2 feats to get those 2 10th level spells, 1 9th level spells. & 2 8th level spells. Literally all other casters except Magus has 1+ 10th level spells, 3 9th level spells, 3 8th level spells, plus all the other spell slots which give QUANTITY.I'm trying to look at this from practical theorycrafting rather than whiteroom theorycrafting. So not just at 20th level character.
The 'quantity' of summoning that the OP wanted was in one battle. Being able to summon 6-8 low level creatures and swarm an on-level enemy with them all at the same time. That doesn't work in PF2.
What you seem to be talking about by saying 'quantity' is having multiple battles during the day. What I would call longevity rather than quantity.
So I am doing the math just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding something when I am talking about the number of slots.
An 8th level Summoner can cast level 4 spells. And level 3 spells, but I am looking at the 4th level ones for now. The summoner themselves probably has a +10 attack bonus with strength melee weapons. Maybe a +12 with dex weapons like a crossbow or finesse dagger.
An 8th level creature typical stats from the Building Creatures tables have:
AC 27
Saves +13 to +19
HP 140A max level (4th level) Summon Elemental spell can summon a level 3 creature such as a Sod Hound
Attack bonus +11 so needs to roll a 16 to hit.
damage 1d10 +6 = 11.5 points - or more than 10 hits to kill.This is a pretty minor threat to the 8th level creature. It will likely be ignored and so it might be able to do some minor damage before the battle ends. And if it doesn't get ignored, then the enemy has spent some actions destroying it - which is probably a better outcome for the PC party.
A max -3 level (1st level) Summon Animal...
Temp has incredibly strong opinions about summons which are informed by zero first hand experience on the topic.
I'd go as far as to say Summoners are the best at actually USING summon spells. But for some reason Temp thinks the lower level slots are relevant even though they acknowledge they aren't useful.
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I'd go as far as to say Summoners are the best at actually USING summon spells.
I'd disagree on this too. Pre-20th level, a spellblending conjuration wizard soundly trounces a summoner at summoning: more slots, more higher level slots, a focus minion buffing spell they don't have to pay for, lower level spells to buff summons [say haste] or utility [say Comprehend Language to communicate with summons]. Legendary Summoner [20th level] is the only time summoner comes close, IMO, and I'm not waiting that long for a pay off.
Pre-20th level, a spellblending conjuration wizard soundly trounces a summoner at summoning: more slots, more higher level slots, a focus minion buffing spell they don't have to pay for, lower level spells to buff summons [say haste] or utility [say Comprehend Language to communicate with summons].
Definitely more high level slots to cast summons from.
Minor nitpick - you do have to pay for Augment Summon by being a Conjuration Wizard. There is the opportunity cost of not being an Evocation Wizard or Generalist Wizard instead.
I'm also not convinced that casting Haste on the summoned creature is the best use of spell slot and casting time either. Cast that on your ally characters instead.
And even so that is one class and subclass. There are still a lot of other spellcasters that do summoning spells worse than a Summoner.
Saying that "summoner" is good at summoning is like saying Alchemist is the most damaging martial class. The whole thing is a joke inside a joke.
Well, I don't think that is a failing of the Summoner class. That is more a dissatisfaction with the summoning spells in general.
Summoner class does a pretty good job of using summoning spells when given a fair comparison to other spellcasters. But being better than most at a bad option isn't necessarily useful.
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Until they fix the attack rolls, summons are niche use at best.
I tested a summoned creature with my eidolon against a creature+2, summoned creature couldn't hit even with a flank. Not sure why Paizo dropped the ball so hard on summons, but it's another one of those areas they went too far to limit to the point it isn't worth doing any more past a certain point.
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Minor nitpick - you do have to pay for Augment Summon by being a Conjuration Wizard. There is the opportunity cost of not being an Evocation Wizard or Generalist Wizard instead.
I was referring to to class feats: looking closely enough everything has some kind of cost.
I'm also not convinced that casting Haste on the summoned creature is the best use of spell slot and casting time either. Cast that on your ally characters instead.
Good news, it can do both! I wasn't claiming THAT particular spell was super-awesome, it was just the first buff I could think of [most likely since the new FAQ about minions and action altering spells].
And even so that is one class and subclass. There are still a lot of other spellcasters that do summoning spells worse than a Summoner.
Well, it was a "best at actually USING summon spells" contest I was posting against. I mean, we'd then have to look at summoners WITHOUT taking any summoning feats too if we aren't looking at the best build for summoning... I'll break down other classes latter when Nethys become usable again.
I'd go as far as to say Summoners are the best at actually USING summon spells.I'd disagree on this too. Pre-20th level, a spellblending conjuration wizard soundly trounces a summoner at summoning: more slots, more higher level slots, a focus minion buffing spell they don't have to pay for, lower level spells to buff summons [say haste] or utility [say Comprehend Language to communicate with summons]. Legendary Summoner [20th level] is the only time summoner comes close, IMO, and I'm not waiting that long for a pay off.
I'd accept spell blending wizard as an answer because of their higher level slot potential, largely in action economy and having someone for the summon to flank with. Any class with a regular number of spell slots is just going going to give up more to cast and sustain the spells.
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I'd accept spell blending wizard as an answer because of their higher level slot potential, largely in action economy and having someone for the summon to flank with. Any class with a regular number of spell slots is just going going to give up more to cast and sustain the spells.
Really? Witch is "going to give up more to cast and sustain the spells"? [looks at cackle] What is the summoner getting to help with sustaining spells? A summoner might be better at doing other things while summoning [ie, they can sustain while the pet does something], but I'm looking at the actual summoning and using it.
I'd accept spell blending wizard as an answer because of their higher level slot potential, largely in action economy and having someone for the summon to flank with. Any class with a regular number of spell slots is just going going to give up more to cast and sustain the spells.Really? Witch is "going to give up more to cast and sustain the spells"? [looks at cackle] What is the summoner getting to help with sustaining spells? A summoner might be better at doing other things while summoning [ie, they can sustain while the pet does something], but I'm looking at the actual summoning and using it.
Recall Knowledge, moving, striking, or using literally any other hex all spring to mind as witch alternatives. Cackle helps, but not in the long term.
Meanwhile, the summoner also gets enhancements to the actual summons through various feats. And personally, I'd consider being able to cast a summon and not have it be your only contribution for the turn as being better at using summons. That's kind of semantics though, I'll admit.
And even so that is one class and subclass. There are still a lot of other spellcasters that do summoning spells worse than a Summoner.Well, it was a "best at actually USING summon spells" contest I was posting against. I mean, we'd then have to look at summoners WITHOUT taking any summoning feats too if we aren't looking at the best build for summoning.
We might break this into a few different categories.
One is the question of how many summoning spells you can have active at once. Obviously the Witch wins that one with Cackle and Effortless Concentration.
Another is how many battles during a day can you cast one max level summoning spell. The Spell Blending Wizard wins that one.
But as for using one summoning spell in one battle. Does summoner actually do that worse than any other class? I think it does it better than most.
All other casters have either better ways to buff summons, better ways to keep summons up, better stuff to do besides summoning, or just plain more uses of summons.
Ways to buff summons: Buffing summoned creatures is actually fairly rare. As far as I can tell, only Bard with Inspire Courage has ways of buffing their summoned creature at all without spending class feats or features. Conjuration Wizard can do it through choice of school. Summoner can spend a feat for it. Fervor Witch can - again by spending subclass choice. There are plenty of spells or other general purpose things that can buff any ally, and these are available to all classes.
Better ways to keep summons up: Summoner has Act Together - for free at level 1 - which combines great with the next point of doing something else along with summoning. Witch can get Cackle for a feat. a few classes including Summoner can get Effortless Concentration at high level for a feat.
Better stuff to do while summoning: The Eidolon is not a summoned creature - it is part of the class. Utilizing the Eidolon seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to use while or instead of using summon spells. And when using the Eidolon, Act Together becomes even better than Cackle - available at level 1 without spending a feat or a focus point. Wizard and other spellcasters can cast other spells, but that means fewer spell slots to cast summons with. Druid can command an animal companion, but I'm not sure that it would be better than giving actions to an Eidolon.
More uses of summons: Yes, most spellcasters have more high level summoning spell slots than a Summoner - for at least most of the levels. But they also have less to do when not casting from spell slots. Summoners get cantrips too - and have an Eidolon.
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Recall Knowledge, moving, striking, or using literally any other hex all spring to mind as witch alternatives. Cackle helps, but not in the long term.
Moot. I already went over this: I'm talking about classes with their best option on the table [I'm looking at builds], so if you're making a summoner, what does the class have to offer. Why would I talk about a PC NOT spec'd for summoning in a debate about who can summon best? Might as well talk about how bad a fighter is at it too: if you're planning to summon, you aren't 'giving' anything up to do your intended action/activity. I's not a cost analysis of possible actions possible but a focused look at summoning: full stop
Meanwhile, the summoner also gets enhancements to the actual summons through various feats.
[yawn] You discount cackle but point out those feats? It's much more impactful than an area explosion around the summons [you don't want that when you summon to flank for instance] or a small damage buff [they need to hit more]. And summoners do have a summoning feat [Rites of Convocation] that lets you swap what summoning spell you have in a slot. Plus they have to wait a bit to get them [6th and 8th] while cackle is 1st. As to hexes, stoke the heart does what the summoner has to have a feat for. Overall, witches have similar top slots, more lower level slots, cackle and comparable abilities and that's a win IMO for them over summoners.
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One is the question of how many summoning spells you can have active at once. Obviously the Witch wins that one with Cackle and Effortless Concentration.
Agreed. It's more important that it's extra actions to buff the summons. At most, 2 summons is about the max usable though, though add a hex in and you could spend turns sustaining.
Another is how many battles during a day can you cast one max level summoning spell. The Spell Blending Wizard wins that one.
Check, we agree.
But as for using one summoning spell in one battle. Does summoner actually do that worse than any other class? I think it does it better than most.
You lost me there: if you mean better as a character, debatable. As a summoner? I don't agree as there is much more others can do to support the summons: a bard can use Composition Spells, a psychic can use their ungraded cantrips, witches can use hexes, the others have lower lower spells to do so. You can beat a magus though.
There are plenty of spells or other general purpose things that can buff any ally, and these are available to all classes.
Yes, and summoners have the least.
Better ways to keep summons up: Summoner has Act Together - for free at level 1 - which combines great with the next point of doing something else along with summoning.
Act Together doesn't do anything for keeping a summons up though: your Eidolon isn't directly help your summons.
Better stuff to do while summoning: Changing that one a bit. The Eidolon is not a summoned creature - it is part of the class. Utilizing the Eidolon seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to use while or instead of using summon spells. And when using the Eidolon, Act Together becomes even better than Cackle - available at level 1 without spending a feat or a focus point. Wizard and other spellcasters can cast other spells, but that means fewer spell slots to cast summons with. Druid can command an animal companion, but I'm not sure that it would be better than giving actions to an Eidolon.
Eidolon aren't summons and I'm talking about summons. What an Eidolon can or can't do doesn't enter the debate on summoning.
More uses of summons: Yes, most spellcasters have more high level summoning spell slots than a Summoner - for at least most of the levels. But they also have less to do when not casting from spell slots. Summoners get cantrips too - and have an Eidolon.
Don't agree: a single summons only eats 1 action, meaning only 3 action activities aren't allowed. Add to that that plenty of 1 action abilities are out there. Hexes, healing, skill actions, Compositions, heck even a cantrip that'll allow you to pass out Stride and Strikes. The only thing that sets the Summoner apart is the extra body, for good or bad.
You really can't have it both ways and say that the comparison is fair.
You can't list the non-summoning spell benefits that other classes have
there is much more others can do to support the summons: a bard can use Composition Spells, a psychic can use their ungraded cantrips, witches can use hexes, the others have lower lower spells to do so.
And then say
What an Eidolon can or can't do doesn't enter the debate on summoning.
that the Summoner's extra thing is irrelevant to the discussion.
The Eidolon isn't just an extra body. It is a body with generic martial levels of attack bonus and damage.
It is irrelevant to "being a better summoner" to have an extra body with barely martial values.
If is relevant to "being a better summoner" to have more spell slots to summon more and cast more buff/debuff spells (both of which helps the summons).
OK. That is a good start. How about you complete the criteria that you have for being a 'better summoner'. List the ranking system first and that will help a lot for making a fair assessment.
So what is Temperans' criteria for being the best summoner?
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You really can't have it both ways and say that the comparison is fair.
You can't list the non-summoning spell benefits that other classes have
there is much more others can do to support the summons: a bard can use Composition Spells, a psychic can use their ungraded cantrips, witches can use hexes, the others have lower lower spells to do so.And then say
What an Eidolon can or can't do doesn't enter the debate on summoning.that the Summoner's extra thing is irrelevant to the discussion.
The Eidolon isn't just an extra body. It is a body with generic martial levels of attack bonus and damage.
Sure I can [and I'll do i again] as it's apples and oranges: the Eidolon isn't buffing/supporting the the summons. Now it can help with tactics, but so can the rest of the party. I wouldn't count a druids animal companion either. IMO, it's an extra body to the summons as it's not doing anything for the summons other than be a body and that's something an animal companion, Eidolon, party member or even the caser themselves can do and not unique to the summoner and doesn't have the ease of use as casting a spell does, requiring movement and positioning. What is it doing that can't be done otherwise?; EI, what unique does it bring to the table that DOESN'T just require a body in the correct position?
It still feels like you are both arguing this from a strictly hypothetical or parlor trick point of view.
Do you actually spend spell slots to buff a summoning spell?
Do you only play at level 20?
Do you actually only fill your highest level spell slots with summoning spells?
Do you bring out summoning spells against higher level enemies and actually expect them to do anything?
And it still feels like you are trying to minimize and ignore what the Summoner does have.
* Better base chasis equal better ways to support summons.
Ignoring that the Eidolon is a better martial chassis than any other spellcaster besides Magus.
Just face it PF2 "summoner" is misnamed and should had been called Manifester and not pretend its doing anything with summons.
Now that, I would agree with.
But I am getting bored of arguing this.
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It still feels like you are both arguing this from a strictly hypothetical or parlor trick point of view.
Do you actually spend spell slots to buff a summoning spell?
Do you only play at level 20?
Do you actually only fill your highest level spell slots with summoning spells?
Do you bring out summoning spells against higher level enemies and actually expect them to do anything?And it still feels like you are trying to minimize and ignore what the Summoner does have.
I'm not minimizing the summoner, just stating I don't care what it's pet can do because we're talking about SUMMONING: full stop. We aren't talking about what the whole character package can do: I'm also not bringing in familiars, animal companions and other ability that can be gains by different classes as they don't bring anything to the summoning able. I'm talking about the best summoner and you seem to be debating on the best character that can summon which is a different thing.
As to the questions:
1: yes
2: I VERY RARELY make it to 20. 1-low teens mostly.
3: If I'm playing a summoner, sure. That's what a summoner is about isn't it?
4: Yes. Sometimes this means you have to be clever and know your summons: for instance, the boss uses fire attacks so summon an Ember Fox with a reaction to give an ally resistance to fire or a Lillend can be a pocket bard.
Ignoring that the Eidolon is a better martial chassis than any other spellcaster besides Magus.
You're ignoring that we AREN'T talking about it's martial ability but it's ability with summons: full stop. More hp and a pet aren't helping summons.