Ok, so I have been doing something my PC's whole career that maybe I shouldn't have.
Magus with a mithral cestus on right hand and a cold iron cestus on left hand. Wield scimitar in left hand and have right hand free for casting.
However: it was pointed out to me, that it might not actually work.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Does a cestus count as having a hand free or not?
I can't remember a time when it would have actually made a difference, but it might in my weapon enchantment purchases for the future.
AoN wrote:
"While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed..."
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When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks).èquopte=AoN]Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
I don't recall any statement by the devs saying that you can cast spells while wearing a cestus. It limits precise movements, a requirement for spellcasting when the spell has a somatic component.
On the other hand, it leaves your hand free when you don't use that hand to attack. You arenìt holding something in it.
So, my ruling, at my table would be:
1) while wearing a cestus in your off-hand your hand is free, as long as you don't use it to attack during the round;
2) the cestus limits your hand movements, so you can't cast spells with somatic components.
I am not 100% sure that it is the RAW of the rules, but, on the basis of what I know, it is how I would rule.
Will just point out that with Improved Unarmed Strike and Claw attacks you are also considered “armed”. Does possession these then make your hands permanently not free? What about Spiked Gauntlet? I’m not saying you are necessarily wrong just pointing out that being armed may not make your hand necessarily NOT free.
ROFLMAO
You 3 just basically went through the discussion at our table. Our decision was to ask the forms. Nicely ironic that we got the same discussion.
There is no definition on the term, but 'free hand' seems to mainly be about holding things and beign able to wield weapons. Since the cestus allows both, the hand should be considered free.
The spell component rules say this:
"To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand." (CRB pg. 184)
The cestus imposes a "constriction" on tasks involving the hand, which clearly prevents gesturing "freely". Therefore, a Castus prevents somatic components.
AoN wrote:
"While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed..."
What has that to do with the topic?
Armed means you don't provoke when attacking, and it interacts with Catch Off-Guard (are there even any other abilities like that?).
Improved Unarmed Strike makes you be considered armed, and that feat certainly doesn't make it so your hands are never considered free. Otherwise, the Esoteric, Iron-Ring Striker, and Jistkan Artificer archetypes couldn't use Spell Combat at all.
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Just swap out the off hand cestus for a spiked gauntlet. There is no somatic component issues with them.
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Just swap out the off hand cestus for a spiked gauntlet. There is no somatic component issues with them.
As an old-guard gamer (I started with AD&D in 1979), I feel that a gauntlet is a piece of medium or heavy armor, and so you need a class of ability that allows you to cast in that kind of armor. That is not true in Pathfinder, so it is a house rule.
The line in the spell combat rule is one of the worst written and interrupted rules pathfinder IMO, the author of the rule did not take existing rules [Still Spell] and rules that completely bypass the need for somatic spell components like Component freedom.
What? Spell Combat outright tells you that the free hand has nothing to do with somatic components. Still Spell et al. don't help, and they aren't intended to help.
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Name Violation, so do rules written after spell combat supercede spell combat? There are mythic rules that effect spell combat that negate the one hand issue and if you do not need a second hand to cast spells or have improved or greater two weapon fighting do you need to keep a hand free in your opinion, as spell combat says it is a form of two weapon fighting. Spell Combat is a very good concept but a poorly written rule IMO.
On another topic where did you find your avatar it is way cool.
Unless the rule specifically says that it allows spell combat without having a free hand, it doesn't allow spell combat without a free hand.
Can you cite the mythic rule that you think allow spell combat without a free hand?
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Diego there are two mythic rules the First is Mythic Spell Combat, it appears in the Mythic Hero's Handbook. I know its 3rd party.
The Magus may use a hand on his weapon to fulfill a somatic component.
Spell Combat (Ex): -At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or onehanded melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one melee weapon in the other hand.
The bolded text describes the offhand casting the spell and the penalty that you take. if you do not have to use somatic components when you are casting why should the offhand free portion of the rule apply to you?
The previous is covered by the mythic rule Component Freedom [Somatic]
Iam not saying that you still would not have to make a...
you bolded it yourself...
(even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components),
i dont give a fart about 3rd party. they can make up whatever they want, but im not here to discuss 3rd party
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IMO latter material published that modifies a prior rule overrides the prior rule that it modified.
Wrong. More specific material supersede generic rules.
You need something that changes spell combat, not something that changes the basic rule about somatic components.Spell combat doesn't care about somatic or material components, it still needs a free hand even when you cast a purely V spell like Dimension Door.
And third-party material isn't relevant in the rule forum. It is like saying "my home rules say .... so X works this way RAW".
this is only my own bit, but i'd house rule it as anything not especially called out to no be in the hand make it not free for spell combat.
compare it to the slashing grace FAQ.
the feat ask for the hand to be unoccupied, and the FAQ make a correlation between the feat requirement to have an unoccupied hand and other things among other spell combat.
so for me, a Swordmaster’s flair or something strapped to the forearm like a buckler or Tekko-kagi etc(which work and take the same place as a buckler) are ok, but anything else in the hand make it not free (unless specifically call out that it's ok).
the free hand is a rule mechanic to limit the stuff a magus can do. the same as arcane spell failure (which divine casters do not have). it's there as a balancing facture and should be used unless otherwise noted.
you want an off hand weapon that free up the hand? go for armor spikes (better damage then spiked gauntlet and is not in the hand)
Basically, spell combat is a special technique that allows you to cast and attack at the same time. The special technique requires a free hand, even if the spell cast does not.
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IMO latter material published that modifies a prior rule overrides the prior rule that it modified.
Not only is this not how the rules work, Component Freedom doesn't modify anything relevant for spell combat.
This is what you fail to accept. There can be something that overrules the line in Spell Combat, but it has to use the same (general) language, and neither Still Spell nor Component Freedom, an not even that thrid party stuff, does so. If you want to use Spell Combat without a free hand, you need something that explicitly makes your hand count as free. Component Freedom doesn't contain the words "hand" or "free", and thus can't possibly do that, dito for Still Spell and 'Mythic Spell Combat'.
You assume a correlation between Spell Combat's free hand requirement and somatic component's free hand requirement That assumption is wrong.
My GM said he is ok with me changing out one of the cestus for a spiked gauntlet. He feels that will meet the qualifications. So I will just do that.
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Derklord and Diego, how does the archtype Myrmadarch exist by your reading of the Spell combat rule as a bow takes two hands to use?
We read how the class ability works. The Myrmidarch doesn't use spell combat when making a ranged attack. He used Ranged spellstrike.
Ranged Spellstrike (Su): At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.At 11th level, a myrmidarch can spend a full-round action[/n] to [b]cast a spell that includes multiple ranged touch attacks and deliver more than one using ranged attacks. The spell must have a casting time of 1 full-round action or less. This functions similarly to the base ability of ranged spellstrike, but the myrmidarch can deliver a number of missiles, rays, or effect up to the number of attacks he could make with a full attack. Attacks beyond the first take penalties as if the myrmidarch were making a full attack. Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost, as are any additional ranged touch attacks the spell would allow beyond the myrmidarch’s maximum number of attacks. This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.
Until level 11 The Myrmidarch doesn't use spell combat when attacking at range, he can cast only single-target touch attack ranged spells.
He can't cast shield, mirror images, magic missile, fireball, haste, etc.At level 11 the repertoire increases as he can can deliver a number of missiles, rays, or effect up to the number of attacks he could make with a full attack, but most of the spells listed above still aren't useable.
Can you use spell strike with two hands on your blade as Spell strike does not have the one hand free in the rule also you are not casting a spell.
Yes you can. But spellstrike is a different ability than spell combat. To use spellstrike with 2 hands on a weapon you can either:
a) Cast a single touch attack spell as a standard action. This spell then grants a free attack. Use a free action to put your second hand on the weapon. Use your free attack according to the rules of spellstrike with your weapon. This cannot be done with spell combat, because your 2nd hand needs to be free for the entirety of the spell combat action (which includes making your attacks).
b) Cast a touch attack spell and do not deliver it so you are holding te charge. In any round following this wield your weapon with two hands and deliver the touch attack spell with spellstrike while making an attack (either single action attack, or an attack that is part of a full attack).
it is also why there is -2 to your attack roll when using spell combat, so following the rules for casting if you do not have to fulfill the somatic or material components of a spell you should not have a hand free ie component freedom.
The -2 to attack isn't because your hand is occupied doing somatic/material components for the spell. It is occupied (and applying a -2) because you are doing something that is like 2 weapon fighting. Spell combat takes both hands (weapon hand and free hand) simply because spell combat tells us it takes both hands - and for no other reasons.
On a slightly less contentious subject can one of you explain the action economy of a magus using Spell combat casting a quickened spell. this has confused me over the break up of casting a quickend spell striking the baddie then casting regular spell and striking baddie twice normal
attack and free attack with the wording of spell combat about splitting up attacks.
There is a guide for magus spell combat and spellstrike here
The very condensed version is:
A magus with spellstrike can cast a touch attack spell, and as the free action use their weapon targeting AC (instead of touch AC) to deliver that spell while also applying weapon damage.
With a quickened spell this doesn't change anything. If the quickened spell is a touch attack spell that magus still gets a free touch attack as part of casting the spell. With spellstrike that free touch attack can be exchanged for a free melee attack with a weapon to deliver the spell. The magus then can still use a full round action with spell combat to make all of their full BAB/hasted attacks at a -2 while casting another spell. If this other spell is also a touch attack spell, that spell also grants a free touch attack. With spellstrike that free touch attack can be exchanged for a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the spell.
Note that the quickened spell attack does not suffer the -2 to hit, because the quickened spell is not part of the spell combat action. Only those attacks granted by spell combat (bab and a touch attack spell cast as part of spell combat) suffer the -2.
a) Cast a single touch attack spell as a standard action. This spell then grants a free attack. Use a free action to put your second hand on the weapon. Use your free attack according to the rules of spellstrike with your weapon.
This is one of the nice things about playing a strength based magus. 1.5x strength damage when moving and attacking. So many people want to go dexterity based, but strength goes online so fast and it's not like there aren't plenty of good feat choices if you don't go for finesse.
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Why wouldn't you suffer the -2 to hit? You suffer the -2 [IMO] because you are fulfilling the Material or somatic portions of casting of spell casting and using a weapon at the same time [it is not mentioned why you suffer the -2 penalty]. IMO casting a quickend spell still has to follow
rules for casting spells meaning unless you used the spell combat ability
you would have to have still spell and eschew materials feat.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
It is the penalty for two-handed combat, made into a class ability.
No, the penalty can't be reduced by Two-Weapon Fighting feat, that bonus is already in the reduced penalty and you aren't wielding two weapons.
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Why wouldn't you suffer the -2 to hit? You suffer the -2 [IMO] because you are fulfilling the Material or somatic portions of casting of spell casting and using a weapon at the same time [it is not mentioned why you suffer the -2 penalty]. IMO casting a quickend spell still has to follow
rules for casting spells meaning unless you used the spell combat ability
you would have to have still spell and eschew materials feat.
Again, the -2 has nothing to do with somatic or material components. That's why it still applies to spells without those.
It's a -2 because it says it's a -2. But it's better than not being able to do it at all.
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Yeah. The -2 is just inspired by two weapon fighting. It’s not actually two weapon fighting. The special technique of spell combat just requires a free hand. The further needs of the spell are simply irrelevant to that requirement.
Why wouldn't you suffer the -2 to hit? You suffer the -2 [IMO] because you are fulfilling the Material or somatic portions of casting of spell casting and using a weapon at the same time [it is not mentioned why you suffer the -2 penalty]. IMO casting a quickend spell still has to follow
rules for casting spells meaning unless you used the spell combat ability
you would have to have still spell and eschew materials feat.
The -2 to hit represents a reduction in accuracy due to hastening your attacks, splitting your focus between casting a spell and attacking, guarding yourself as you cast, and/or a physical toll of spellcasting that otherwise would go unnoticed.
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Why wouldn't you suffer the -2 to hit? You suffer the -2 [IMO] because you are fulfilling the Material or somatic portions of casting of spell casting and using a weapon at the same time [it is not mentioned why you suffer the -2 penalty]. IMO casting a quickend spell still has to follow
rules for casting spells meaning unless you used the spell combat ability
you would have to have still spell and eschew materials feat.
You are trying to associate the -2 to hit having something to do with the spell being cast. That simply is not the case. The -2 applies because spell combat applies the -2. It has nothing to do with the spell being cast, the weapon being wielded, or anything else. The bolded part I quoted from you shows your error. Spell combat does not mention that this is why you suffer the -2, because it is not why you suffer the -2. Using spell combat itself is why you suffer the -2, full stop. You also seem to be conflating spellstrike with spell combat. They are not the same thing. A magus can use spellstrike as part of deliving the spell in spell combat, but they can also use spellstrike while not using spell combat at all.
A quickened spell (swift action) is a completely different action from spell combat (full round action). The requirements for each are different, and also entirely separate from one another.
Spell combat requires a free hand (regardless of somatic and material requirements of the spell).
A quickened spell requires a free hand if and only if the spell has somatic and/or material components.
But they are still separate and distinct actions. In both cases spellstrike (which is a different ability than spell combat) allows a magus to exchange the free touch attack for a weapon attack to deliver the spell.
If a magus casts a quickened spell, and uses the free touch attack does the magus suffer a -2 to hit? No, because quickened touch attack spells do not impose a -2 penalty to hit.
If a magus casts a quickened spell and uses spellstrike to exchange the free touch attack for a weapon attack, does it impose a -2 to hit? No, because neither quickened spells nor the spellstrike ability impose a -2 to hit.
If a magus uses spell combat and delivers a touch attack spell, does the touch attack suffer a -2 to hit? Yes, because spell combat applies a -2 penalty to all attacks made as part of spell combat. If they use spellstrike to change that touch attack into a weapon attack do they get a -2? Yes, but not because they are casting a spell (with or without S or M components), and not because they are using spellstrike. They get a -2 because it was an attack they gained while using spell combat, which imposes a -2 penalty.
If a magus casts a quicked spell, as above, we don't apply the -2. If they in that same turn follow it up with a full round spell combat, we don't retroactively go back and apply a -2 to the quickened spell attack. Because these are two separate and distinct actions. And unlike power attack, spell combat does not apply the -2 penalty for the entire turn, but only for the spell combat portion of the characters turn. And for the same reason if they spell combat, followed by a quickened spell, the quickened spell still does not suffer the -2 penalty. They make all their attacks as per spell combat and resolve the entire spell combat action, applying the -2 to all attacks made. The spell combat action is now over and the -2 does not apply to anything else they do this turn. Their quickend action starts and they resolve all the effects of their quickened spell.
Derklord and Diego, how does the archtype Myrmadarch exist by your reading of the Spell combat rule as a bow takes two hands to use?
Can you use spell strike with two hands on your blade as Spell strike does not have the one hand free in the rule also you are not casting a spell.
The one hand free makes perfect sense if you follow the rules for casting magic that requires somatic or material spell components but both of you seem to not make the connection that magus's must follow the rules for casting magic except where it lets you make an attack with a weapon. [without having a hand free you cannot fulfill somatic or material components in the spell being cast.} it is also why there is -2 to your attack roll when using spell combat, so following the rules for casting if you do not have to fulfill the somatic or material components of a spell you should not have a hand free ie component freedom.
On a slightly less contentious subject can one of you explain the action economy of a magus using Spell combat casting a quickened spell. this has confused me over the break up of casting a quickend spell striking the baddie then casting regular spell and striking baddie twice normal
attack and free attack with the wording of spell combat about splitting up attacks.have a good night guys.
You have keenly noticed the biggest reason why NO ONE recommends taking myrmidarch if you intend on playing a ranged focus magus, and instead are recommend to play an Eldritch Archer magus.
Elric200, you seem to be drawing a lot of false associations between certain rules elements trying to make logical sense of it, but you're drawing incorrect conclusions of the rules.
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It is the penalty for two-handed combat, made into a class ability.
I hope what you mean is that the -2 penalty is meant to imitate the TWF penalty (with a light off-hand). Mechanically, Spell Combat has zero relation to TWF.