Just wondering if people opt for ninja over Rogue even in a small party, knowing that they won't be able to disarm or otherwise mitigate magical traps at low levels? Can dispel magic handle magic traps?How do most of you out there approach this? Are traps more common in APs than in most home style games? Sorry that's alot of questions, I know.
Well I'll say this about that: Our Rogue has saved our lives more times than any other party member so far.
There are some damned nasty traps in Pathfinder, though I think some are restricted to certain APs.
Trapfinding is useful, but not really necessary. Anyone can detect traps now, not only Rogues. Which means that Rangers, Clerics and Druids are likely to be btter at finding said traps than Rogues.
Rogues can disarm magic traps, of course, but truth be told, you don't need that either. More often than not you can simply trigger the trap with a summon or something, find another path or simply walk around it.
Trapfinding hasn't been necessary since 2nd ed.
That said, it can be very useful, and occasionally even save your party, especially if you GM likes ancient temples and similar dungeons. I just don't think it's worth being the focus of a character or class. It's at most, a tertiary ability.
You can do just fine without it, but it's nice to have.
Well, at very low levels, your rogue isn't going to disarm a magic trap either - the DC starts at 26 (alarm) and goes up from there, so it takes a fantastic roll to kill a magic trap at very low levels. As your rogue probably has a +7 or +8 on the check.
Now, at higher levels, especially once you have goggles of minute seeing or a similar item (+5 competence bonus to Disable Device checks), a rogue will kill pretty much any trap when taking 10. My own rogue by level 8 in Serpent's Skull had max ranks, a 20 dex, the item (+5), masterwork tools (+2 circumstance), a heroism spell (+2 morale), and +4 from trapfinding, so he had a +29 on his disable device check. So if he was taking 10, he couldn't fail the check to disarm even 9th level spell traps. So, all things, considered, going from level 1 to level 8 resulted in a 22 point increase on his disable device check.1
The APs usually use traps. Whether your DM uses traps in their home style is really up to the DM and whether they like traps.
The thing with traps is that they're usually really nasty if you trigger them. Having a scout with trapfinding (bonus = to 1/2 level on the check) and trap sense (automatically roll when coming within 10 ft of a trap) can be incredibly handy.
Dispel magic can dispose of magic traps, assuming the trap is spotted in time and the caster passes the caster level check.
So if the trap was a symbol of death (an 8th level spell), a L8 rogue could take 10 and disable it, while a L16 caster could destroy it by rolling a 10 or better on the dispel check.
Since a trapfinder-type can incredibly ramp up their check and the caster can't, a trapfinder is much, much more reliable for disposing of magic traps.
Now, a ninja will probably be a better combatant than a rogue. Especially once you can use greater invisibility. You'll just have to accept your ninja being thwarted by alarm spells and other nuisances.
all trapfinding does that no one else can is let you disarm magical traps.
any wisdom based character with perception as a class skill can find non-magical traps better than a rogue (usually)
any dex character with disable device can disarm non-magical traps.
anyone able to cast detect magic can find magical traps.
anyone capable of casting dispel magic can disarm magical traps.
anyone capable of summoning an animal, monster, unseen servant, or mount can disarm any trap once it is found by the high perception druid casting detect magic to help him search.
trapfinding is pretty useless nowadays.
I still wonder how a Rogue who lacks magic can disarm magical traps, but a Wizard or Sorcerer cannot.
The best part about being DM is the ability to create houserules, but I can always reccomend the same rules to other DMs.
Trapfinding has gone the way of THACO.
Hey, don't knock THAC0! It's what got us to the BAB system we're using today. You don't want to go back to combat matrices that *aren't even in the PHB!
*Well, weren't for the non-grognards.
isn´t sacrificing summoned creatures to trigger a trap an evil act? my DM would hang me if i try....
Isn´t sacrificing summoned creatures to trigger a trap an evil act? My DM would hang me if I try....
I wouldn't call it an Evil act when you're being pragmatic and saving the lives of your allies.
I read this thread, and now I have a question: are magical traps always detectable by (for example) Detect Magic ?
There's at least one spell (whose name eludes me at the moment) which masks magical auras. Could this spell be used to build a magic trap undetectable by Detect Magic, or similar spells ?
isn´t sacrificing summoned creatures to trigger a trap an evil act? my DM would hang me if i try....
Remember, summoned creatures don't actually die. They just zip back to their home plane and can't be summoned for 24 hours. They might actually prefer being used for traps... one quick finger of death instead of being ripped apart by a bunch of ogres.
If they're created with magic, a caster with Detect Magic should be able to notice them.
Though I assume you'd need Detect Undead if you want to notice a Haunt, but those are not really traps.
Every skill/ability/feat/spell is usefull or relevant in PF if you have a good GM who creates relevant situations/scenes. Take it or leave it. You dont need it but it will not kill your group if you have it. Same for a "full" healer..
Some of us PF players tend to reduce the game to AC, damage, saves and damage again but i hope that is only a minority!
perhaps, but on these boards i would say it's more like a majority.
Although I've played many published adventures that included traps as one of the menaces in game. In our home brewed campaigns, traps tend to be very rare - almost never appearing in our game. If that's the style of dungeon you tend to play in ninja might be more optimal than a rogue. Whenever, I'm building a new rogue archetype to fit a specific theme in our game. Trapfinding and Trapsense seem to be among the most common ablities that are replaced in building something new.
Of course if you use lots of traps in your game, this might not be so wise. Again, everything is relative to your game.