I have used the Electric Arc and attack combo. I do not consider a shortbow fighter a top damage dealer. I look at archers as gaining an advantage from being able to engage without having to use move actions or have to maintain a position within easy attack range or susceptibility to auras and the like. Ranged attacking has inherent defensive advantages that offset the damage.
Clearly. And it's really hard to judge the advantage of range. Of course, there's the obvious advantage of not having to move that can be easily calculated by adding a third attack. But the advantage of engaging the enemy when you have the best initiative, the advantage of dealing with flying/very fast opponents and the advantage of not having to clutter the frontline and avoid hazards and auras are very hard to put numbers on. We tend to consider that the Maul Fighter is a constant damage dealer when it's actually a circumstantial one: If the enemy doesn't look like a nail its damage drops greatly.
The undead eidolon has Energy Heart and sonic claws that are the screams of the souls it has devoured.
If I may say something from a pure optimization point of view: Sonic is the worst energy for Energy Heart. You will (paradoxically) face more resistances with Sonic than with Fire and the resistance will be nearly pointless. Overall, it's a severe hit to your damage output. Fire is definitely the most optimized choice. You will avoid Fire Resistances and Immunities by switching weapon, you will exploit one of the most common Weakness, and you will avoid buying a Flaming Rune at level 8 and as such face less resistances than anyone else.
Yesterday, I was playing with my Summoner (still low level) with its at will ability to deal Fire, Cold, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Electricity, Sonic, Positive and area of effect damage. Yesterday, it was Positive and AoE damage, dealing more damage trough weaknesses than I did through my actual damaging rolls (enemies succeeded at nearly all their saves, it happens). That's something people tend to dismiss as "luck" or "circumstances", but being able to seize opportunities is mechanically strong.
Also, here's the build I ended up with:
Dex-based Angel Eidolon
Adapted Cantrip (Electric Arc)
Energy Heart (Fire)
Ranged Combattant (Cold)
Tandem Move
Psychic Dedication (Guidance)
Eidolon's Wrath (Good)
Protective Bond
Link Focus
Your main routine is Electric Arc + Eidolon ranged Strike + Amped Guidance with your reaction. You have the damage output of a bow martial and the buffing ability of a Bard (Psychic is the new Bard).
You are a secondary healer, which is very important to a party.
You obliterate Undeads (3-action Heal is an Undead killer) and Fiends (good damage everywhere). You explode Golems (non magical energy damage goes through all their resistances) and even Swarms (Haunting Hymn). You exploit good, fire and cold weaknesses that are very common, + a bunch of other rarer weaknesses. You deal single target damage and AoE damage (only against evil creatures and at the cost of your Focus Points, but it doesn't affect your allies and the area is excellent). You have a range of 30ft but are not shut down by AoOs or Grapple.
And you are not really fragile. The Eidolon is able at range, as is the Summoner so you don't often go into the fray and should do fine with your martial hit point pool. Also, having the attention split between 2 characters means you should be rarely focused (even if Weakness exploitation raises attention). And at level 10+ you are especially strong against AoEs with both the excellent Reflex saves of your Eidolon and Protective Bond.
Then you have all the Summoner shenanigans. Your Eidolon can climb at level 5 and fly afterwards for the flying archer exploit. Your Eidolon can increase charisma and Aid you on your Demoralize checks to shut down low will saves enemies with Terrified Retreat. Your Eidolon is a fantastic scout. It has access to scent and you to Faerie Fire to eliminate invisible opponents. You have a small spell list which means also a bit of versatility (even if the Divine spell list is not excellent on that, but you can also grab scrolls/staves of Occult spells as you don't need your hands for anything).
So it's a support/damage dealer hybrid with excellent abilities in both domains. In my opinion, it's a Tier S build past level 5. And if you ask me, it's really what a competitive Summoner build should look like.
Why would Sonic be the worst given it is has the lowest number of resistant creatures?
I understand why fire can be good exploiting weaknesses, but also has a huge number of resistant creatures.
What is the data basis for this belief?
A lot of this looks good, and you cover a lot of roles to some extent. That said, I'm still not sure its any better than bow fighter between bow crit spec, felling strike, debilitating shot, double (or triple) the range, etc.
Being able to flex any elemental weakness between fire and cold feats, elec arc, acid and sonic property runes is pretty cool ngl, but I also haven't found weaknesses to be prevalent enough to matter much. In more themed campaigns, its easy enough to select the most common weakness (or least immune/resisted) runes such as cold and holy when dealing with fiend heavy campaigns. Eidolons also lose out on cold iron and silver weaknesses for whatever that's worth.
Relatedly, Eidolons also can't benefit from the bevy of items that allow you to replicate ghost touch. You can spell slot your way through it but you've only got 4 and the ghost touch rune can't be applied to ranged weapons (presumably unlike effects that give you the benefit of the rune directly [maybe I'll make that thread in the rules forum] )
Not to say I don't like this build. It's a great swiss army knife and makes a great 5th member. I just don't think it can really take the place of a proper ranged combatant like bow fighter or psi magus (who is also pretty good at weakness exploitation as it turns out).
Also, here's the build I ended up with:
Dex-based Angel Eidolon
Adapted Cantrip (Electric Arc)
Energy Heart (Fire)
Ranged Combattant (Cold)
Tandem Move
Psychic Dedication (Guidance)
Eidolon's Wrath (Good)
Protective Bond
Link Focus
So this perplexes me. You're a charisma-based caster already. Why would you use adapted cantrip to get Electric Arc rather than Arcane Tattoos (evocation)? Was it that you'd already decided on your ethnicity/nationality?
Why would Sonic be the worst given it is has the lowest number of resistant creatures?
I understand why fire can be good exploiting weaknesses, but also has a huge number of resistant creatures.
What is the data basis for this belief?
The data is Exocist's one.
Fire doesn't face a single resistance: If the monster is resistant to fire you just switch damage. Your Eidolon at least deals physical damage. And you can also use your Summoner if your Eidolon can't properly affect the enemies.
Sonic damage is a contingency plan: It is never optimized as it nearly never faces a weakness but it's nearly never bad. You use it if you face an enemy who's resistant to all your other types of damage. But on a Summoner you don't care as enemies that are resistant to half a dozen damage types but Sonic don't exist.
On top of it, the best level 8 rune if you don't deal Fire damage is the Flaming Rune. The Flaming Rune allows you to exploit Fire weaknesses. And when you face a resistant or immune enemy, you just lose 1d6 points of damage (3.5 average damage). Considering that weaknesses go from 8 points on average at level 8 to 17 at level 20, you will definitely gain more extra damage from weaknesses than you'll lose from resistances and immunities even if there are more resistant and immune enemies than weak enemies.
So to optimize your Sonic damage Eidolon, you'll have to put a Flaming Rune and ultimately end up facing more resistances than the Fire damage Eidolon who can put a Rune that is less often resisted and who will switch damage everytime it faces a Fire resistant enemy.
So Sonic is the weakest choice you can make for Energy Heart. And that's without considering the resistance that Energy Heart gives you.
It looks to me that you still have PF1 mentality of resistance avoidance. In PF2, weakness exploitation delivers more damage output.
I just don't think it can really take the place of a proper ranged combatant like bow fighter or psi magus (who is also pretty good at weakness exploitation as it turns out).
I won't speak of the Starlit Span Magus as a "proper ranged combattant" as it now outdamages Giant Barbarians. It's an overpowered ranged combattant that needs a massive nerf.
But the bow Fighter and this Summoner deal similar damage. And it's hard to optimize the Fighter in damage besides Point Blank Shot, Hunted Shot and Gravity Weapon.A lot of this looks good, and you cover a lot of roles to some extent. That said, I'm still not sure its any better than bow fighter between bow crit spec, felling strike, debilitating shot, double (or triple) the range, etc.
I've just compared damage output, I haven't said anything about the rest of the abilities the Fighter can get. But honestly, I fail to be amazed by your examples that are easily dealt with by the Summoner. What can the Fighter do against multiple enemies, resistant enemies, AoO enemies at melee range, Grabbing enemies? And that's without considering the support and healing abilities the Summoner brings on the table plus the versatility of a small spell list. I take the Summoner over the Fighter any time. But bow Fighters are not exactly strong so it's the least I can expect from an optimized build.
Relatedly, Eidolons also can't benefit from the bevy of items that allow you to replicate ghost touch.
Disrupt Undead goes through Incorporeal Undead resistances. It's not exceptional, but your 4 ways of dealing with Incorporeal are also expensive (in terms of action economy or they replace a damaging rune). Unless there's one I don't know of.
Being able to flex any elemental weakness between fire and cold feats, elec arc, acid and sonic property runes is pretty cool ngl, but I also haven't found weaknesses to be prevalent enough to matter much.
I play an Alchemist, too. Weaknesses will be important 15% of the time.
And you forget about resistances: Being able to switch damage also allows the Summoner to avoid most resistances. These ones will be an issue nearly 15% of the time also.When you add both numbers, it makes a difference: 5-10% extra damage roughly. That's not negligeable even if it's not stellar.
So this perplexes me. You're a charisma-based caster already. Why would you use adapted cantrip to get Electric Arc rather than Arcane Tattoos (evocation)? Was it that you'd already decided on your ethnicity/nationality?
Arcane tattoos tradition is Arcane, my build is Divine and I plan on using Electric Arc till the end of the game. Arcane Tattoos DCs will plumet at high level.
It's worth noting that the Paizo devs consider the shortbow to be overtuned. It's a weapon that's too good on purpose in order to enable archery as a valid strategy.
The data is Exocist's one.
Fire doesn't face a single resistance: If the monster is resistant to fire you just switch damage. Your Eidolon at least deals physical damage. And you can also use your Summoner if your Eidolon can't properly affect the enemies.
Sonic damage is a contingency plan: It is never optimized as it nearly never faces a weakness but it's nearly never bad. You use it if you face an enemy who's resistant to all your other types of damage. But on a Summoner you don't care as enemies that are resistant to half a dozen damage types but Sonic don't exist.
On top of it, the best level 8 rune if you don't deal Fire damage is the Flaming Rune. The Flaming Rune allows you to exploit Fire weaknesses. And when you face a resistant or immune enemy, you just lose 1d6 points of damage (3.5 average damage). Considering that weaknesses go from 8 points on average at level 8 to 17 at level 20, you will definitely gain more extra damage from weaknesses than you'll lose from resistances and immunities even if there are more resistant and immune enemies than weak enemies.
So to optimize your Sonic damage Eidolon, you'll have to put a Flaming Rune and ultimately end up facing more resistances than the Fire damage Eidolon who can put a Rune that is less often resisted and who will switch damage everytime it faces a Fire resistant enemy.So Sonic is the weakest choice you can make for Energy Heart. And that's without considering the resistance that Energy Heart gives you.
It looks to me that you still have PF1 mentality of resistance avoidance. In PF2, weakness exploitation delivers more damage output....
The data from Exocist is what I am going off of. Sonic has the least number of resistant or immune monsters. I want an attack sequence given the d6 damage that meets the least amount of resistance.
I can acquire a fire rune and eventually a greater fire rune that isn't affected by resistance to exploit weaknesses.
The particular campaign I'm in is evil, so won't be able to grab good damage to exploit it unless I cheese a bit. Not sure I will.
I may grab cold as a second Dual Energy heart for the freezing cold of the grave on his claws, but we'll see.
Since I'm a dual class wizard/summoner, I plan to have lots of access to weakness exploitation. Should go well.
It's worth noting that the Paizo devs consider the shortbow to be overtuned. It's a weapon that's too good on purpose in order to enable archery as a valid strategy.
Too good? I've never heard that, though one of my buddies is trying a shortbow pointblank shot guy which seems really good for low level. The +2 damage might not be good as he gets more striking runes.
It's worth noting that the Paizo devs consider the shortbow to be overtuned. It's a weapon that's too good on purpose in order to enable archery as a valid strategy.Too good? I've never heard that, though one of my buddies is trying a shortbow pointblank shot guy which seems really good for low level. The +2 damage might not be good as he gets more striking runes.
A lot depends on the ranges of your combats, but the fighter is well situated to switch to a long bow eventually, if they are going all in on archery.
The short bow is “over tuned” for being the default most versatile, easiest to use ranged weapon to not have to optimize around, and to just fire as often as possible. It is a decent metric for “competent ranged damage dealer.”
I've just compared damage output, I haven't said anything about the rest of the abilities the Fighter can get. But honestly, I fail to be amazed by your examples that are easily dealt with by the Summoner. What can the Fighter do against multiple enemies, resistant enemies, AoO enemies at melee range, Grabbing enemies? And that's without considering the support and healing abilities the Summoner brings on the table plus the versatility of a small spell list. I take the Summoner over the Fighter any time. But bow Fighters are not exactly strong so it's the least I can expect from an optimized build.
Against multiple enemies? Focus one down at a time? AoE control isn't the ranged striker's job. That's for the caster with calm emotions or fireball to deal with. If that's what the party was lacking why would I roll a dex striker instead?
Resistance? Mostly overcome by silversheen or ghost touch like most physical resistances. Better to spend gp than feats or a rune slot, I think. I'll take being mildly inconvenienced a handful of times a campaign in exchange for build flexibility and the other benefits of bows.
Melee AoO and grabbing? Aside from the obvious benefit of being further away helping to avoid those in the first place, enemies wasting multiple actions to approach is great for the team as a whole. Not like the summoner is going to stay grabbed or in melee range either so that's a wash. Unless you think staying grappled and trading blows is a good idea in any scenario.
As for support benefits, very little in this system is going to have as much of an impact as an infinite use no-save slow. The no-save anti-fly is also good for a few levels before the whole party has flight access. The extra action drain on bow crit isn't bad either given fighter's +2. A Summoner can AoE slow late game, but high fort is very common making it less useful. Only having 4 slots doesn't help either.
But I remember now that you're in a west marches campaign. Certainly, when you have less control over party composition or don't know if you can trust the others at the table to play well, a swiss army knife that trades a bit to cover potential holes in the party is rather valuable.
Arcane tattoos tradition is Arcane, my build is Divine and I plan on using Electric Arc till the end of the game. Arcane Tattoos DCs will plumet at high level.
It's an innate arcane spell. "If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too."
The rule just says "proficiecy in spell attack rolls or spell DCs". From my best reading of the rules, and from everything I've seen elsewhere, your innate spells go off whatever your best spellcasting proficiency is, regardless of whether or not it matches the tradition of the spell in question.
If that's not the case, then some of these feats and heritages get super-niche.
Arcane tattoos tradition is Arcane, my build is Divine and I plan on using Electric Arc till the end of the game. Arcane Tattoos DCs will plumet at high level.It's an innate arcane spell. "If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too."
The rule just says "proficiecy in spell attack rolls or spell DCs". From my best reading of the rules, and from everything I've seen elsewhere, your innate spells go off whatever your best spellcasting proficiency is, regardless of whether or not it matches the tradition of the spell in question.
Not as much as some other issues, but I remember some controversial arguments on how that verbiage interacts with traditions.
Not as much as some other issues, but I remember some controversial arguments on how that verbiage interacts with traditions.
Oh, ugh.
Yeah... I definitely have arguments to make here.
At the same time, I am absolutely out of "fighting with people on the internet" ergs.
So... if you want to believe that most innate combat cantrip feats are long-term useless trap options for almost all classes, then I'm not going to stop you.
Against multiple enemies? Focus one down at a time? AoE control isn't the ranged striker's job. That's for the caster with calm emotions or fireball to deal with. If that's what the party was lacking why would I roll a dex striker instead?
Resistance? Mostly overcome by silversheen or ghost touch like most physical resistances. Better to spend gp than feats or a rune slot, I think. I'll take being mildly inconvenienced a handful of times a campaign in exchange for build flexibility and the other benefits of bows.
Melee AoO and grabbing? Aside from the obvious benefit of being further away helping to avoid those in the first place, enemies wasting multiple actions to approach is great for the team as a whole. Not like the summoner is going to stay grabbed or in melee range either so that's a wash. Unless you think staying grappled and trading blows is a good idea in any scenario.
As for support benefits, very little in this system is going to have as much of an impact as an infinite use no-save slow. The no-save anti-fly is also good for a few levels before the whole party has flight access. The extra action drain on bow crit isn't bad either given fighter's +2. A Summoner can AoE slow late game, but high fort is very common making it less useful. Only having 4 slots doesn't help either.
But I remember now that you're in a west marches campaign. Certainly, when you have less...
I think we will have to agree to disagree on that. I really have a different opinion on each of these points:
- If I can be a ranged Striker with AoE abilities, I take it over a ranged striker with no AoE abilities.
- I've seen archers twiddling their thumbs because of resistances enough to know it's not something you should ignore entirely. And even if you can apply silversheen or use such items to overcome some of them it takes a round in general. That's a significant cost to me.
- Considering that Bow Critical Specialization is an "at-will Slow" is quite disingenuous. On top of being very unreliable (and very often killing the enemy as it's the main use of critical hits), Immobilized is not equivalent to Slow as an enemy who's already engaged at melee range or who operates fine at range will disregard the condition. I have a Rogue Archer and I still wait for Bow Critical Specialization to really shine.
- And yes, I stay grabbed and trade blows. At some point, someone will have to take the heat. Especially if it's the Eidolon who's grabbed as it's quite able to take some hits.
But I remember now that you're in a west marches campaign. Certainly, when you have less control over party composition or don't know if you can trust the others at the table to play well, a swiss army knife that trades a bit to cover potential holes in the party is rather valuable.
Honestly, I haven't seen much difference between pick-up groups and stable ones. I won't generalize my experience but I feel there's a general distrust of pick-up groups with people thinking it's somewhat chaotic. It's very far from the truth. Players know how to play their character and operate inside a party. Pick-up groups are often working fine. On the other hand, stable groups are not always super coordinated and perfectly built. I've played in badly built groups because no player wanted to play the healer or because everyone was into casters. So even if a stable group will have more chances to be coordinated, the difference with pick-up groups is not so big as to change the way to build a character. I express my preference for versatile characters whatever group I end up in.
It's an innate arcane spell. "If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too."
The rule just says "proficiecy in spell attack rolls or spell DCs". From my best reading of the rules, and from everything I've seen elsewhere, your innate spells go off whatever your best spellcasting proficiency is, regardless of whether or not it matches the tradition of the spell in question.
If that's not the case, then some of these feats and heritages get super-niche.
Anyway, even if we disregard the rule issue I don't think Arcane Tattoos are that good. It's Uncommon and asks for a specific ethnicity and even if it has honorable follow up feats it's very costly to get the good one. So unless you really want Virtue-Forged Tattoos you can take Adapted Cantrip just fine. And in this build, I just need Electric Arc.
Also I avoid to put on the boards builds that are using Uncommon options or alternate rulings (I play this character with the free archetype rule for example, but I still post here a version without it). I want my builds to be usable by everyone.
Anyway, even if we disregard the rule issue I don't think Arcane Tattoos are that good. It's Uncommon and asks for a specific ethnicity and even if it has honorable follow up feats it's very costly to get the good one. So unless you really want Virtue-Forged Tattoos you can take Adapted Cantrip just fine. And in this build, I just need Electric Arc.
Also I avoid to put on the boards builds that are using Uncommon options or alternate rulings (I play this character with the free archetype rule for example, but I still post here a version without it). I want my builds to be usable by everyone.
I agree. Arcane Tattoos aren't all that good. They're the human version of the lvl 1 "gain an innate cantrip" ancestry feat that many ancestries get. It's pretty bog-standard, really.
I'm also really not particularly impressed by the follow-on feats. Like, they're just not particularly good, and they don't scale at all well.
It's Adapted Cantrip that's the issue. It's like that standard ancestry feat, except that it also eats a cantrip out of the supply you get from your class. Cantrips are useful. They give you all-day at-will flexibility. They're valued at about half a lvl 1 class feat for a reason. "like a standard feat, except that it also eats a cantrip" really isn't particularly good.
Let's look at the ancestries that can get your angel summoner electric arc at lvl 1: Anadi, Changeling (Versatile Heritage + feat), Conrasu (Heritage), Elf, Gnome (feat or Heritage), Human (two different ethnicity-limited feats for two different ethnicities), Kobold (heritage), Lizardfolk, Shisk (heritage), Tengu.
Of those, Elf, Gnome, and Human (Dragon Spit, with Tian-Dian ethnicity) are the only ones that can get you there without any uncommon/rare picks, but...
It's Adapted Cantrip that's the issue. It's like that standard ancestry feat, except that it also eats a cantrip out of the supply you get from your class. Cantrips are useful. They give you all-day at-will flexibility. They're valued at about half a lvl 1 class feat for a reason. "like a standard feat, except that it also eats a cantrip" really isn't particularly good.
Ok, now I understand your point.
Well, I've posted this build, focusing on what's important in my opinion. I prefer to put Adapted Cantrip in it because it's a common option from the most common ancestry (and I must admit I don't agree with you about Innate Spells as normally spell DCs are tradition-dependent, but I see your point).Anyway, it's largely adaptable to your own playstyle and preferences. The main schtick is to focus more on the Summoner than most Summoner builds I've seen. I understand why most builds focus on the Eidolon: if you want to play a caster, there are better ones out there.
I also find Boost Eidolon to be deceptive: to benefit from it you need to put 3 actions on the Eidolon, preventing the Summoner from casting. I put Boost Eidolon in the same box than Arcane Cascade: level 1 abilities that you must avoid to use in your routine as on average they are reducing your efficiency.
Overall, I think you get better results by keeping the couple roughly balanced than by putting all your budget on the Eidolon. Versatility is often disregarded because you can't put numbers on it, but having a character that can exploit any crack, lash out when the situation is desperate and can't be pinned down easily is really an asset.
Adapted Cantrip's main advantage is that you cast the spell as your own tradition (and thus proficiency), using your normal spell mod (not important for summoner as a CHA caster). In some cases it allows other things as well (Unleash Psyche for instance), but that doesn't apply on Summoner.
Overall, it's not particularly important unless you've got the divine spell list I'd say? And even then an extra utility cantrip may serve you better than using a cantrip slot on another tradition.
I continue to be convinced that innate spells use whatever your highest casting proficiency is, but the fact that it uses your standard casting stat is potentially significant, it's true, especially for, say, a cloistered cleric. It also lets you pick whatever cantrip you like, whereas the other sources of ancestry-based cantrips are often quite a lot more restricted. It's just that Electric Arc is one of the more commonly available.
Considering that Bow Critical Specialization is an "at-will Slow" is quite disingenuous. On top of being very unreliable (and very often killing the enemy as it's the main use of critical hits), Immobilized is not equivalent to Slow as an enemy who's already engaged at melee range or who operates fine at range will disregard the condition. I have a Rogue Archer and I still wait for Bow Critical Specialization to really shine.
I actually mean fighter's level 10 debilitating shot as an at-will slow. Bow immobilize is just icing for playing the spacing game. But yeah I'm good to agree to disagree.
I actually mean fighter's level 10 debilitating shot as an at-will slow. Bow immobilize is just icing for playing the spacing game. But yeah I'm good to agree to disagree.
Ok, I didn't know about this one.
Considering that Bow Critical Specialization is an "at-will Slow" is quite disingenuous. On top of being very unreliable (and very often killing the enemy as it's the main use of critical hits), Immobilized is not equivalent to Slow as an enemy who's already engaged at melee range or who operates fine at range will disregard the condition. I have a Rogue Archer and I still wait for Bow Critical Specialization to really shine.I actually mean fighter's level 10 debilitating shot as an at-will slow. Bow immobilize is just icing for playing the spacing game. But yeah I'm good to agree to disagree.
Debilitating Shot is nice. Boss killer ability.
I'm starting to see Superbidi's point about Summoner action economy. It doesn't exactly align with the Summoner's class design. It is an inferior option to use Boost or Reinforce Eidolon.
But if you use the extra action for things like sustain spells, skill actions like intimidate, one action cantrips or abilities, and try to build around being able to use one action, you can get some amazing action economy as a summoner.
I'm playing a dual class summoner. The action economy is especially good as a caster summoner since you have more options for sustain spells.
I made an Undead Summoner and gave him Undead Master archetype. So I can send my eidolon in to do a one action act together attack and use the one action I can use to command my undead pet to attack, while still having two actions to cast a spell or do something else.
I have to give Superbidi the point here because the Summoner does indeed have amazing action economy which really shines when playing dual class or combined with lots of effective one action options.
When I send in my undead pet, I'm basically getting one eidolon attack, up to two undead pet attacks, and then two actions to cast a two action spell or do something else for a total of five actions. You can really ramp up the action economy once you pick up effortless concentration for some real crazy action number rounds.
I'm playing a dual class summoner. The action economy is especially good as a caster summoner since you have more options for sustain spells.
I'm also playing my Summoner as a caster Summoner and I was thinking of opening a discussion about this style of play. It's definitely the best way to play a Dual Class Summoner/caster character, but it can be used also with a normal Summoner.
The two points of attack is rough. We were ambushed by two Leucrotta. One attacked the eidolon and one attacked the summoner at different points on the map. They completely chewed through my hit points.
The eidolon you send into battle, so you expect to get it attacked as it is a frontline melee attacker.
But when it the monsters break into the back ranks, the damage is rough getting attacked at two points with summoner substantially easier to hit and critical hit than the eidolon.
I'm going to keep playing the class because I want to see the full experience run up. But it is definitely exactly as I envisioned getting attacked at two points and 10 hit points per level with a caster AC is definitely painful.
The two points of attack is rough. We were ambushed by two Leucrotta. One attacked the eidolon and one attacked the summoner at different points on the map. They completely chewed through my hit points.
The eidolon you send into battle, so you expect to get it attacked as it is a frontline melee attacker.
But when it the monsters break into the back ranks, the damage is rough getting attacked at two points with summoner substantially easier to hit and critical hit than the eidolon.
I'm going to keep playing the class because I want to see the full experience run up. But it is definitely exactly as I envisioned getting attacked at two points and 10 hit points per level with a caster AC is definitely painful.
Considering your style of play (Summoner centric), you should avoid using a melee Eidolon. Ranged Eidolons are perfectly valid damage dealers once at level 10 (and I know you play more high than low level) and they completely remove the 2 points of attack weakness.
I will take a look at how to rebuild in that direction. Melee is very unfriendly to the summoner.
I adjusted the eidolon to be more of a ranged attacker. I will see how it goes. Still fits my concept well too.
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I'm liking this ranged attacking summoner better. It allows for more diverse combat positioning.
I can send the eidolon forward using Stealth and used the ranged attack for pulling creatures to us.
I can set up with the eidolon and summoner positioned away from each other attacking with ranged spells and attacks.
I can use a summoned creature for tanking while attacking with the eidolon's ranged attack.
I was also able to add piercing to my attacks. So I have an unarmed attacked that does bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing which allows me to attack three different types of damage.
So far the ranged attack has turned out to be a quality option for the summoner.
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I've now quite a few games with my Summoner, and I must admit I'm pleased with how it works out. I'm playing in a Westmarches game, with quite short adventuring days but random parties and tough fights (mostly because of the random parties, I have to pull my weight as my teammates are not all efficient/coordinated/sound tactically).
I find myself doing honorable damage, while being the party emergency healer. The ability to switch between damage types has been useful against a Troll (before it decided to focus on my Eidolon and one turn me...). I dropped only once as I'm more of a ranged damage dealer. The Summoner high HP pool saved me from a Lightning Bolt (at level 2...). The Eidolon/Summoner couple is also highly deceptive. As we are a caster and an archer, enemies like to come to melee where my Eidolon actually does more damage. And they also consider us as 2 targets for AoEs, so we are attracting them (I tend to position myself slightly on the side of the party) which is a good thing. And I've also been able to use Evolution Surge both to chase enemies and to add Scent for investigation purposes. As it's a FA game I also have Psychic Dedication for Amp Guidance, which is always a bliss to use.
Overall, it's a solid character and a solid class.
What are you using on the Summoner while the Eidolon is ranged attacking? Is it just Electric Arc?
Mostly. I play a caster Summoner (using the strategy I've detailed in my pseudo-guide). So my Summoner is using Electric Arc as a bread and butter spell and otherwise it's mostly Heal.
I prioritize the Summoner in terms of action use, so my most classical round is Electric Arc or Heal + Strike (once in general, unless I don't need to move).
Compared to my other casters, I find the Summoner quite nice as I can do something else on top of casting a spell. But obviously I lose the choice I have with my Sorcerer and Oracle, Electric Arc and Heal are 90% of the spells I cast during combat.
I already use scrolls quite extensively but I expect them to become more and more expensive at higher levels. I'm planning on taking spellcasting Dedications (the Psychic one is already there) through my FA feats. So I'll have access to more spellcasting at higher level, but low level one. I don't know how it will work out.
Also, before level 4 I was having diminished spell slots, and it is still a significant part of my experience. So, I wait and see if I'll manage to get more of a caster than I currently am.
didn't act together allow summoner cast a two action spell and attack with two action
Sort-of. You can 2-action spell with one character (usually the Summoner) and two 1-action attacks.
You are not able to 2-action spell with one character and 2-action attack (like Beasts Charge) with the other.
mid to late game the third action can be used to pull out scroll or wand
give summoner ability to cast decent spell despite only have four slot
Yes, you can increase the spellcasting of a Summoner with items. Though usually with scrolls or staves. Wands are a once per day item, not charged like they were in previous editions.
I'm playing in a Dual Class game. My character is a wizard/summoner.
I tend to use Electric Arc with the ranged attack for basic damage. I often mix in another spell. It depends on the encounter. I may use a skill action like Intimidate. I may take an extra attack.
My rounds are flexible. I've build to have a few options.
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In fact, the more I play this build, and the more I start to think it could be the superior Summoner. It really removes the issues of the Summoner (2 separate minis on the battleground, the lack of tanking ability of the Eidolon, the fact that when you go down you can't get the Eidolon back easily, etc...). All the Eidolon centric builds I've seen were investing everything on the Eidolon without really getting it on par with an actual martial.
I'll wait to be higher level to get a final stance on that. But if it's the case, I may review my pseudo guide and make an actual guide out of it, with more tactical elements gathered from my experience.
I am looking to take a Summoner out for a spin soon (fingers crossed!).
I am torn as to which aspect to major in; caster concept (Fey), or Battlefield Control (Plant)?
Both appeal to me. The Summoner part was easy (Snare Crafter).
I was thinking the Plant could Shove folks into the snares...lol.
Sounds fun!
Our party had an Encounter that evolved into 2 Encounters. My Alchemist held off their reinforcements for 4 Rounds, while the other 4 in our group dealt with initial bads. It was glorious!
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In fact, the more I play this build, and the more I start to think it could be the superior Summoner. It really removes the issues of the Summoner (2 separate minis on the battleground, the lack of tanking ability of the Eidolon, the fact that when you go down you can't get the Eidolon back easily, etc...). All the Eidolon centric builds I've seen were investing everything on the Eidolon without really getting it on par with an actual martial.
I'll wait to be higher level to get a final stance on that. But if it's the case, I may review my pseudo guide and make an actual guide out of it, with more tactical elements gathered from my experience.Most of my builds I have seen focused on martial brawler + electric arc/spell caster. I haven't seen any summoner who forgot they could spell cast because spells are really powerful. But knocking enemies prone/grappling and and getting extra reaction attacks is a great way to supplement your action economy. So I still rate the standard builds as fairly balanced rather entirely eidolon focused. It's the composite of doing comparable melee damage to investigators plus being a weak Spellcaster which in my mind's makes the whole package pretty potent.
When I speak of Eidolon Summoner or caster Summoner, I don't consider that you use only the Eidolon or only the Summoner as that would be ridiculous. It's just how you use your actions when you can't play both the Summoner and the Eidolon. For example, your Eidolon is next to no enemy, do you move it and attack once while casting Electric Arc with your Summoner (caster Summoner) or cast Boost Eidolon, move the Eidolon and attack twice (Eidolon Summoner)?
I can even just ask this question: Do you use Boost Eidolon regularly? If the answer is yes, then you are certainly playing an Eidolon Summoner. As a caster Summoner I've used it only twice in 4 levels.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just realized the Undead Eidolon’s Drain Life isn’t restricted to melee Strikes. I might actually try one out with this Ranged Combatant playstyle.
I just realized the Undead Eidolon’s Drain Life isn’t restricted to melee Strikes. I might actually try one out with this Ranged Combatant playstyle.
I noticed that as well. I am trying it out.