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I'm afraid I can't recall the name just this moment, but a member of Paizo staff has already expressed a preference for making a Shaman inspired by real world cultures over a wholly fictionalized version of the class the likes of which we've seen before. It would seem that this is currently the more likely route they will take, if one seeks to take the facts into consideration. Paizo has already shown a willingness to take sensitivity consultants on, so this does not seem a terribly large obstacle to the eventual publishing of a Shaman class.
(I want to say it was Michael Sayre but I'm in no position to go look for the original comment at just this time)
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I'm afraid I can't recall the name just this moment, but a member of Paizo staff has already expressed a preference for making a Shaman inspired by real world cultures over a wholly fictionalized version of the class the likes of which we've seen before. It would seem that this is currently the more likely route they will take, if one seeks to take the facts into consideration. Paizo has already shown a willingness to take sensitivity consultants on, so this does not seem a terribly large obstacle to the eventual publishing of a Shaman class.
(I want to say it was Michael Sayre but I'm in no position to go look for the original comment at just this time)
It is indeed Michael Sayre.
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I love to look at the massive lists of creatives tapped for both the Mwangi and Tian books, and still say “there’s just no chance Paizo can do [representation thing] right.”
Like, what? Where have you been?
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At least I'm certain an official paizo shaman would have a much more cohesive, actually shamanic design than Sinclair's Library's upcoming one, which is... A blood mage? Apparently a lot of people in that playtest discord have complained but they've not changed it.
Agreed that I would love to see the style of caster that Sayre described his ideal shaman as - spending spell slots for powerful benefits from the spirits.
1e shaman was definitely a hodgepodge of a class (what was Oracle about it except the spirits having the same names as Oracle mysteries?)
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To me Shaman says
Ancestor magic/general ghost magic/land spirit magic/ animal spirit magic and I imagine those differences could be how you break up their traditions.
I’m not sure if I’d want them to be a full caster, or maybe closer to something the Thaum, where they have access to skme form if magic but not full caster.
In terms of sensitivity, honouring ancestors, having a connection to landscape, or having a connection to the dead on general, is a mythology that occurs in all sorts of human civilisations all over the world, it’s not culturally specific.
So I don’t think using those ideas in fantasy is particularly abhorrent, especially if you ground them in people/places from your own setting, which are obviously distinct from real human earth dwelling ones.
Maybe drop the word Shaman for something less culturally specific. Spirit speaker or medium (is that just as culturally specific) or Seancer (not a word?) ♂️
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I think the Shaman is fundamentally "the person who interacts with the spirit world". What form the spirit world takes, what lives there, how you get to it, and what you do when you are there are going to be subject to a lot of different interpretations.
But the basic principle is "there is a spirit world, and you're the person capable of/responsible for seeing it, interacting with it, welcoming it into our world, etc."
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I think the Shaman is fundamentally "the person who interacts with the spirit world". What form the spirit world takes, what lives there, how you get to it, and what you do when you are there are going to be subject to a lot of different interpretations.
But the basic principle is "there is a spirit world, and you're the person capable of/responsible for seeing it, interacting with it, welcoming it into our world, etc."
In that vein I could see three sub-classes.
Augment spellsAugment skills
Acquire pet
I vaguely recall Paizo nixing the last idea, but maybe pseudo-pet abilities like how Draconic Barrage or Spirit's Wrath operate.
And of course, why not do all?, though that depends on how much weight each is given to whether they're gained via chassis or feats.
If they go the literary shaman route, a pseudo-pet would be welcome. I know quite a few we’re bummed that you can’t really use a PF2 summoner class to play a FF style summoner, but using an incarnate spell mechanic might slot in well. Especially if you’re able to cash in slots to increase the power of those abilities (like adding an additional round of actions to the spell).
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I expect Paizo to do a good job because they have in the pass, but in the context of Golarion I think one important thing is making sure the class integrates well into the cosmology.
Like the shaman should be good at ineracting with the spirit world, but Golarion is a setting where lots of characters can interact with the spirit world and the cosmology has very tangible elements to it to be interacted with.
IMO one key element is that the Shaman is an instrument to channel the Divine, but is not beholden to the Divine. Rather than devoting themselves to a deific power like a Cleric does, the Shaman serves as an intermediary.
Ideally this should mean a broad base of options. Ancestor worship, interacting with spirits, fae, outsiders of all flavors. Ideally a Shaman should be able to approach the core faiths of Golarion from the same perspective: if the shaman is making offerings to appease spirits or gain benefits, then entreating Abadar or Gorum in the same way should be within their portfolio too. IMO this is actually a critical thing for Shamans to be able to do: Golarion is somewhat of a fixed cosmology, and what's really missing there is pantheistic and animistic (etc.) perspectives on that cosmology. If the shaman is just completely in its own little bubble I think that would be really unsatisfying.
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If I had to design the Shaman, I think I would like to take a lot of elements we already have and consolidate them in one place.
I think I would primarily draw on both the Witch Class and the Exorcist Dedication as touch stones.
I think I would like it to be a Wisdom based Primal spontaneous spellcaster, who uses a selection of spirits to add spells from other lists to their Repertoire on a daily basis, and can likewise use Spirits in a manner similar to the Exorcist to fuel some class features and some of their focus spells.
Spirits could be used to have an impact similar to Amping a Psychics spell, but tied to gathering spirits to help.
During your daily preparations you would chose an Aspect Spirit to "Bind" with. This would grant you access to some non-primal spells added to your repertoire at each spell rank, with probably a 10th level replacement for Signature Expansion that allows you select these spells as well as Signatures. As you progress in level you can pick up to 3 Aspects Spirits to bind (Probably 1st/9th/18th). Each Aspect Spirit would also grant an Aspect Power, which would be a focus spell which also requires a "Lesser Spirit" to fuel.
Literally grab the Spirit Dwellings and Remnants mechanic from the Exorcist, but expand it out so its not tied in any meaningful way to undead and just have it be the spirits of the world.
Maybe give the Aspect Spirits access to associated thematic domains, and have that be where the Shaman draws its other focus spells from.
Add some interesting Anathema to each Aspect Spirit, which makes certain combinations more tricky / flavourful, and tie the refocus activity to bringing harmony to any and all discordant or rival spirits. This can also be tied to a series of RP based actions needed to attract spirits of certain types which match your Aspect Spirit, and thus use their Aspect Focus Spells.
At 19th level grant them a version of True Perception that also allows them to see ethereal spirits, etc.
The class should feel that its all about finding and shepherding the spirits of the world which naturally arise. Be they a spirit of a sentient being that has been left behind, the natural kami-like spirits of nature itself, or the more esoteric spirits which help the world function.
If I had to design the Shaman, I think I would like to take a lot of elements we already have and consolidate them in one place.
I think I would primarily draw on both the Witch Class and the Exorcist Dedication as touch stones.
I think I would like it to be a Wisdom based Primal spontaneous spellcaster, who uses a selection of spirits to add spells from other lists to their Repertoire on a daily basis, and can likewise use Spirits in a manner similar to the Exorcist to fuel some class features and some of their focus spells.
Spirits could be used to have an impact similar to Amping a Psychics spell, but tied to gathering spirits to help.
During your daily preparations you would chose an Aspect Spirit to "Bind" with. This would grant you access to some non-primal spells added to your repertoire at each spell rank, with probably a 10th level replacement for Signature Expansion that allows you select these spells as well as Signatures. As you progress in level you can pick up to 3 Aspects Spirits to bind (Probably 1st/9th/18th). Each Aspect Spirit would also grant an Aspect Power, which would be a focus spell which also requires a "Lesser Spirit" to fuel.
Literally grab the Spirit Dwellings and Remnants mechanic from the Exorcist, but expand it out so its not tied in any meaningful way to undead and just have it be the spirits of the world.
Maybe give the Aspect Spirits access to associated thematic domains, and have that be where the Shaman draws its other focus spells from.
Add some interesting Anathema to each Aspect Spirit, which makes certain combinations more tricky / flavourful, and tie the refocus activity to bringing harmony to any and all discordant or rival spirits. This can also be tied to a series of RP based actions needed to attract spirits of certain types which match your Aspect Spirit, and thus use their Aspect Focus Spells.
At 19th level grant them a version of True Perception that also allows them to see ethereal spirits, etc.
The class should feel that...
That's very close to how I'd do it. I'd want to be able to choose between Divine and Primal subclasses, so as to maximize the variety of shamans. I can see a case for Occult, but that might be a bit too broad. The Aspect class ability you suggest would be a good way to get some Occult spells anyway.
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I feel like Shamans should be inherent primal casters, but I'd definitely want select spells from other lists.
Admittedly, this design - especially with the daily change-able spells - is much more PF1 in concept than anything we currently have. With these bonus spell selections tending to be more a permanent thing. So I can see that being locked down instead of a daily, which is fine.
Your Aspect spirits would instead then function as your "subclass" options. So adding new ones at 1st, 9th and 18th makes more sense, and would allow the class to be a bit more robust. So that's more than likely the way to go.
Also, at 2nd glance, I think the Oracle would make a better touch-stone concept than the Witch, but design influence from the Sorcerer as I've basically reinvented Bloodlines without realising it. With the Caveat that you would always be primal as core, you just have these spells added.
But some mixture of the Witch, Oracle and Exorcist captures what I would like to see from a Shaman. And being a Wisdom based spontaneous caster, just to fill that hole in addition from being flavourful.
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An example Aspect Spirit would look something like this:
The Restless Dead
- Domains Granted: Repose, Sorrow
- Granted Spells: cantrip: disrupt undead, 1st: heal, 2nd: calm emotions, 3rd: searing light, 4th: dimensional anchor, 5th: death ward, 6th: spirit blast, 7th: finger of death, 8th: spirit song, 9th: wail of the banshee
-Aspect Spirit Spell: (something like overwhelming presence, but toned down to be a focus spell and more calming focused)
-Spirit Focus: Aid the spirits of any once living being to pass over, ease the emotional or spiritual pains of others, aid others in helping their bodies and minds.
-Anathema: Let any spirit of a once living being suffer, be trapped or linger in torment.
I wouldn't mind them so loaded up on class spirit-themed abilities that they could be wave-casters for balance, yet with another perk being able to prepare from multiple lists at no cost. Maybe w/ a Focus Spell ability to emulate lower-level spells (also perhaps from a breadth of traditions).
Thing is that there are so many combinations possible, but what Shamans (& PF2's nature) really need is a defining shamanic-themed mechanic. I'm not sure any of us have suggested any distinct enough.
Coming from another thread talking about a nonhuman culture, I also have to wonder how Shamanism would vary among so many varieties of peoples.
And why has it remained somewhat hidden?! :-)
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I am curious about why folks feel it needs to be primal? Is it for the animal and plant spirit aspects? The problem PF2 has is that the elemental planes are all intimately connected to the primal casting tradition and it feels like a really big mistake to me to connect "the Spirit World" to the version of the elemental planes that is in Golarion, especially with the addition of the elemental plane of metal to the mix.
It feels to me, like if you connect "the spirit world" to just contacting any being from "not the material world" there is going to be a lot of weird and confusing overlap. To its advantage, it really feels like the divine spell list is designed to be an incomplete spell list that is supposed to be supplemented with thematic spells from other spell lists much more naturally than any other spell list. Having aspects that grant a lot of additional spells from the primal list feels like it would be able to cover the animal and plant and even some elemental stuff, without it feeling like it is giving away all of that at once to the class.
The more challenging question is how to not make the class just feel like a cleric of Gozreh or a cleric/druid hybrid class. The class is going to need lots of spell slots if it is going to use them as its primary currency for other abilities, so I think it would need to be a very threadbare class with maybe even 4 slots (maybe no focus spells, or focus spells that it uses to trade spells from spell slots for other abilities, maybe). Maybe a prepared caster that starts the day with no spells prepared, but can prepare a spell in a slot with no roll in 10 minutes, but can switch spells that are prepared with some kind of check in encounter mode. Maybe they can't change prepared slots so it would be distinct from the wizard with spell subsitution because the shaman has to leave a certain number of spell slots open to do the switching and once they have committed their spell slots, they can't change them that day.
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It's because with leshies playing a bigger role in PF2, there's a lot more focus on nature spirits as a thing separate from the ones covered by Occultism/Religion. Nothing elemental-related about it.
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It's because with leshies playing a bigger role in PF2, there's a lot more focus on nature spirits as a thing separate from the ones covered by Occultism/Religion. Nothing elemental-related about it.
But that is exactly why the primal spell list is a bad choice for the Shaman. Taking spells away from a list is a lot more difficult than adding spells to it in PF2. The primal list is not just a nature spell list, it is a fundamental building blocks of matter spell spell list.
Primal casters with lots of spells slots lean into blasting about as effectively as anything else they might do with their spell list. Is that a goal for the class, to be a blaster caster? I guess it wasn't at all in my imagination, but I don't know how everyone else feels about it.
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WoW shamans, being elemental casters, are probably a major reason for people associating the word with nature specifically. I certainly thought that way for a while in 1e times.
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Personally, I would prefer to lean toward divine rather than primal, if that is the decision being made.
The PF1 shaman would most likely have been primal, given the focus on nature spirits specifically.
But we do already have a Druid class that handles that narrative quite well. I think I’d prefer to see a new order (or expansion on existing orders) that moves into spirit interactions with the Druid class, and the shaman class take on animist divine characters, which the cleric, witch, and summoner classes don’t handle as well.
And now I’m actually pretty interested in Castillano’s pseudo-pet idea. A level 1 incarnate spell that scales and can be augmented would be unique and circle round to serving fans of FF summoners and PF1 style disposable minion summons.
Primal fits for some thematic reasons already mentioned, but I agree the discussion has focused too much on the spirit world, spirits, and connections to ignore that aspect of magic, which points us toward divine (or maybe occult, but probably divine).
One thought I had about traditions and essences is that the Shaman's unique place is as a bridge between worlds. They aren't the servant of a deity like a cleric, but they aren't entirely grounded in the material world either.
In a sense, the Shaman serves as a connecting point between Spirit and Matter, which are normally opposed essences within Golarion's magic system.
I think conceptually that's a really interesting place to explore and translate into a mechanical niche.
Though I feel like in practice that would probably be more like a Divine caster who can poach Primal spells or has similarly themed powers more than anything else.
I don't know, when I think "spirits of a shaman", first I think of the primal nature spirits that reside on the material plane and embody plants and animals and natural phenomena, i.e. the so-called 'vitae' (with a follow up of spirits of the dead and ancestors). While Druids indeed already exist in a very similar thematic niche, Clerics also already existed when Oracles came to the table with a 'channel divine power' list. It was not that long ago that people were calling for Shaman to be 'the spontaneous primal' (even though we already know filling out mechanical niches like that isn't the focus).
Of course, this is founded entirely on my experience of other fantasy shamans and I would be much more interested to learn more about what people seek in a shaman more grounded in real world cultures than to see my default assumptions reified. I just hope it comes with an interesting mechanical niche that sets it aside from any of the cleric or druid (or oracle).
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Primal works if you're a shaman who wants to communicate with "the spirit of the land", "the spirit of the animal", "the spirit of the fire" or "the spirit of the tree".
If you're trying to communicate with less concrete spirits, like "the spirit that guards the gate" or "the spirit that ferries souls" or "the spirits of your honored ancestors" that probably fits better with divine or occult.
Primal works if you're a shaman who wants to communicate with "the spirit of the land", "the spirit of the animal", "the spirit of the fire" or "the spirit of the tree".
If you're trying to communicate with less concrete spirits, like "the spirit that guards the gate" or "the spirit that ferries souls" or "the spirits of your honored ancestors" that probably fits better with divine or occult.
Agreed. That's why I think the shaman should have Divine and Primal subclasses.
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That could work, though one problem I think with turning it into a subclass feature is that there are a lot of reasonable concepts here that should expect to do both. Some of the systems being discussed don't necessarily make that distinction.
Kind of like how Gozreh is a god that represents some strongly primal elements, but is still clearly a divine entity. I feel like the Shaman needs to somehow represent that dichotomy, not simply be able to pick sides.
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I'm so curious if Shamans will have distinct subclasses (I am a Nature Shaman, I am an Ancestors Shaman, etc) or some form of swapping focus when they make preparations.
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I'm pretty sure the new Shaman isn't going to have much mechanical in common with the old one.
To me which list it draws from would depend on which spirits it feels its connected to.
Ancestral, General ghostie - Divine
spirits of nature/animal guides - Primal
Make it like a pick a list class based on tradition but only picks between divine and Primal.
I don't know, when I think "spirits of a shaman", first I think of the primal nature spirits that reside on the material plane and embody plants and animals and natural phenomena, i.e. the so-called 'vitae' (with a follow up of spirits of the dead and ancestors). While Druids indeed already exist in a very similar thematic niche, Clerics also already existed when Oracles came to the table with a 'channel divine power' list. It was not that long ago that people were calling for Shaman to be 'the spontaneous primal' (even though we already know filling out mechanical niches like that isn't the focus).
Except that clerics and oracles approached that divine power in different ways, with clerics seeking power and oracles having it thrust upon them. Druids and the kind of shaman you're talking about would not be all that disimilar. Which of course doesn't count such a class out; there's plenty of ways to make them mechanically distinct even if they're both full casters. But like I said I'd prefer the class fantasy on this to be that of an animist or philosophical divine character, since that would cover new ground and seems to be the kind of character Sayre was interested in telling with this class.
Ironically, Oracles might have served this niche if they'd been written a little differently. If the curse wasn't as much a burden as a bargain, with some feats allowing you to trade more slots out for powers (some that might intensify along with your curse, some that don't), that could have worked. Having now typed that, I kind of wish that was how they went in the first place. Seems a lot more interesting to me than whatever they have going on with the class as written, and would ahve left room for a primal offshoot that emphasized the intangible aspects of primal magic instead of the physical.
To me which list it draws from would depend on which spirits it feels its connected to.
Ancestral, General ghostie - Divine
spirits of nature/animal guides - Primal
Make it like a pick a list class based on tradition but only picks between divine and Primal.
I guess the issue I have is that the Shaman really should be "the person who talks to the spirits, whichever ones are present." should be more the class than "the Shaman talks to a particular spirit or family of spirits."
Like the Shaman who normally talks to spirits to do things like "promote good weather for the harvest" or "ensure a successful hunt of the predator that is threatening the community" should also be able to talk to the ancestors, or ghosts.
I'm not sure I agree with the statement "really should be the person who talks to spirits, whichever ones are present"
I'm not sure that's a universal agreed spoken or unspoken understanding of how the shaman should work.
Or at least, "whatever is available" being where they draw power from.
Sure they can contact any spirit anywhere perhaps, but it doesn't mean they draw power from "whatever happens to be around"
To me which list it draws from would depend on which spirits it feels its connected to.
Ancestral, General ghostie - Divine
spirits of nature/animal guides - Primal
Make it like a pick a list class based on tradition but only picks between divine and Primal.
This would be a big no sell for me. Presuming the class does focus on communing with spirits as a core theme, it should just be able to do that, not have them compartmentalized based on tradition.
Or at least, "whatever is available" being where they draw power from.
Sure they can contact any spirit anywhere perhaps, but it doesn't mean they draw power from "whatever happens to be around"
Speaking only for myself, that's exactly the class fantasy I'd like to see.
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I think this will be the dominating conversation of a shaman playtest: do players want shaman that focus on one spirit and gain all of their power from that source? Or do they want shaman that connect to the immediate world around them?
I am also on the side of wanting the diversified connection to the spirits that are present in a location.
Between oracles, witches and sorcerers, I feel like the game is full of characters who gain all of their power from one specific source and thematically build up from there. I get that the narrative of it being a spirit is different than the narrative of those classes, but only marginally, and I feel like it would be difficult for the shaman to exist mechanically between all of that and not just get compared to them in terms of which makes the most powerful option.
I’d much rather see something mechanically different than “pick your theme at level 1 and then just build it up for the rest of the game.” Especially because PF2 does not reward overspecialization and more classes that lean in to that feel like they set the player up for frustration.
This would be a big no sell for me. Presuming the class does focus on communing with spirits as a core theme, it should just be able to do that, not have them compartmentalized based on tradition.To me which list it draws from would depend on which spirits it feels its connected to.
Ancestral, General ghostie - Divine
spirits of nature/animal guides - Primal
Make it like a pick a list class based on tradition but only picks between divine and Primal.
Nothing about what I posted says it can’t commune with all spirits, just that where it draws its power from is narrowed down
All shamans commune with all spirits to draw all their powers to me sounds homogenous.
Can commune with all spirits, draws their powers from a specific subset they always connect with allows more variety,
Again, disagree. Leaving it open ended lets me play my character how I want.
Building a wall between discrete subclasses automatically invalidates any concept whose answer is "both" which is the opposite of more variety.
Again, disagree. Leaving it open ended lets me play my character how I want.
Building a wall between discrete subclasses automatically invalidates any concept whose answer is "both" which is the opposite of more variety.
On the flip side, in those cases where strong theming *is* important for many character concepts, having a character who has to take that theming by voluntarily limiting their own flexibility is pretty feelsbad. If it's a matter of class path or feat selection, that's cool. If it's a matter of spontaneous caster spell selection or chosen cantrips... that's not quite as good, but it's still fine. When it's a matter of "there's a power here that would be super-useful right now, and the only reason I don't have it is because I'm voluntarily restricting my own theme", that feels bad.
For me, my personal desire for shamans is simple. I want something that will let me archetype in and cash in most or all of my spell slots for all-day-long benefits of some sort off of a summoner or a psychic.
I don't know, when I think "spirits of a shaman", first I think of the primal nature spirits that reside on the material plane and embody plants and animals and natural phenomena, i.e. the so-called 'vitae' (with a follow up of spirits of the dead and ancestors). While Druids indeed already exist in a very similar thematic niche, Clerics also already existed when Oracles came to the table with a 'channel divine power' list. It was not that long ago that people were calling for Shaman to be 'the spontaneous primal' (even though we already know filling out mechanical niches like that isn't the focus).Except that clerics and oracles approached that divine power in different ways, with clerics seeking power and oracles having it thrust upon them. Druids and the kind of shaman you're talking about would not be all that dissimilar. Which of course doesn't count such a class out; there's plenty of ways to make them mechanically distinct even if they're both full casters. But like I said I'd prefer the class fantasy on this to be that of an animist or philosophical divine character, since that would cover new ground and seems to be the kind of character Sayre was interested in telling with this class.
(Forgive if it seems like I spend too long in debate despite ultimately agreeing with your point; I found a hair that I thought would be interesting to split and couldn't put the axe down before I'd taken a few whacks)
I would argue that whether the caster chose the divine power or had divine power thrust upon them, so to speak, is much less a significant distinction between Cleric and Oracle than the fact that the Cleric is channel to a discrete and defined deity (even when as a part of a pantheon), while an Oracle's magic stems from a font of divine power not beholden to any deity. In fact, I don't actually see any flavour text indicating that 2e oracles have their power necessarily thrust upon them, and could not, for example, find themselves attuned to a divine mystery through esoteric practices.
Before the Oracle was published (if we pretend the concept didn't already exist from 1e), it would have been theoretically possible to say the same thing about it -- that it could cover the same thematic ground simply by granting deity-like statblocks to non-deific sources of divine power.
But of course, as you say, even if it is possible to create that class doesn't necessarily mean it is necessarily the best or most interesting way to handle it. At the very least, the lore team would certainly have to come up with an answer for communing with ancestral spirits without using the actual spirit.
It seems important to me that the 'negotiates with the spirit world in order to achieve results on the material world' actually interacts with spirits. I'll grant, it's technically possible to write this into the LO cosmology with the fact that English only really has the one good word for spiritual beings that's already pulling a lot of duty in the setting, so 'spirit world' for this cosmos' purposes is technically 'vital energy world' without actually losing the common understanding of spiritual communion... but at that point I would just have to agree with you again: I'm interested in finding out more about what Sayre is looking at re: spirit world and animism.
Besides, Kami are Divine nature beings. I would be fascinated to see if the concept of divine nature spirits is not entirely unique to Tian Xia's corner of the material plane, even if the beings Avistani and Garundi shamans interact with are not strictly members of the kami family.
Again, disagree. Leaving it open ended lets me play my character how I want.
Building a wall between discrete subclasses automatically invalidates any concept whose answer is "both" which is the opposite of more variety.
It doesn't though, nobodies saying make a sub class that can only access one type of spirit.
Nobody is saying your character would have to choose to only access, ancestors or spirit guides or whatever it happened to be.
The suggestion is they have a particular spirit they specialise in contacting. Not that they contact exclusively.
Heck, the "whatever spirits happen to be around" could even be a subclass all of its own, that explicitly doesn't specialize. Although to me thats more of a medium than a shaman.
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Several recent posts in this discussion reminded me of the Witch's mechanics (choice between several traditions at creation and then the ability to add out of tradition spells).
So, I'm wondering how, mechanically speaking, the Shaman could be different from the Witch.
That's... bizarre to me.
The core thing about the Shaman is the bit where they deal with spirits. The Witch has a patron who hands them bennies, the Shaman makes deals with spirits.
One of the proposed ways of doing this (and one I rather like the idea of) would be that the shaman would be able to give up some of their spell slots as offerings, in return for various benefits - adding quite a lot of potential breadth to the answer to "what can I buy with my spell slots?"
By comparison, they wouldn't have the level of focus on the familiar, the increased ability to trade spells around, or the level of focus on focus spells and hex cantrips. They'd probably be a spontaneous caster rather than prepared.
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(Forgive if it seems like I spend too long in debate despite ultimately agreeing with your point; I found a hair that I thought would be interesting to split and couldn't put the axe down before I'd taken a few whacks)
By all means.
I based my characterization of the oracle class both on what developers have said was their intent, but also on the fact that they have a curse mechanic specifically. Certainly does not connote a voluntary acceptance, but I'll acknowledge your interpretation isn't ruled out by the actual rules.
It seems important to me that the 'negotiates with the spirit world in order to achieve results on the material world' actually interacts with spirits. I'll grant, it's technically possible to write this into the LO cosmology with the fact that English only really has the one good word for spiritual beings that's already pulling a lot of duty in the setting, so 'spirit world' for this cosmos' purposes is technically 'vital energy world' without actually losing the common understanding of spiritual communion... but at that point I would just have to agree with you again: I'm interested in finding out more about what Sayre is looking at re: spirit world and animism.
This point was actually specifically addressed in Secrets of Magic.
The most frustrating thing about Spirit is how misused the word is. The vernacular is popular, and most languages lack an analogous word meaning “Being composed only of Life,” so beings composed of other essences are called “spirits” an unfortunate percentage of the time. For example, consider the manifestations of Life that form leshys and guide druids. These are often referred to as “spirits of nature” while not being spirits in the true sense, beings composed of Spirit, at all. I prefer to refer to them as vitae, though using the term vitae to refer to a category of vital-only beings is a bit of a neologism of mine.
That's why I said that Druids and Shaman as you see them would cover similar ground; it is literally written out that "spirits" vernacularly refers to both Vitae and pure Spirit essence creatures, and also that druids interact with Vitae specifically. Further, the same sections points out some beings that are composed of spirit essence instead of material, namely "celestials, fiends, monitors".
So the shaman as Sayre* described about would probably interact mostly with those, as well as spirits of the dead.
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One of the proposed ways of doing this (and one I rather like the idea of) would be that the shaman would be able to give up some of their spell slots as offerings, in return for various benefits - adding quite a lot of potential breadth to the answer to "what can I buy with my spell slots?"
Do you mean on a high-level, like the way taking the Flexible Casting archetype does for a prepared caster. Or do you mean on a much lower level, where they could, for example, spend a spell slot of the equivalent level instead of a focus point to use a focus spell?
Do you mean on a high-level, like the way taking the Flexible Casting archetype does for a prepared caster. Or do you mean on a much lower level, where they could, for example, spend a spell slot of the equivalent level instead of a focus point to use a focus spell?
Well, the ones I find most interesting are the mid-levels, where as part of their daily preparations they cash in some of the spell slots they would otherwise have received that day and instead receive various bonuses, minor at-will abilities, or other bennies. Possibly this would involve having spent feats as well. So, like, you cash in two third-level slots and a second-level slot, and you get some nice little toys to play with.
There might also be ways to establish more long-term relationships with specific spirits, and thus commit to feeding them a certain set of spell slots every day for a deeper, more reliable power.