So me and some friends made some kineticists, he went Dedicated, I went Universal. Now, the description implied a Universalists strength is their diversity and flexibility, but the reality is they are insanely limited. Limiting me to a single power, AND making it where I can't change it except once per day, basically makes it where every situation EXCEPT ones where that one particular power might have utility, I have almost zero use, other than to shoot things with blasts/strikes. My friend went Air Dedicated, letting him have 3 different Impulses out the gate. And in pretty much our first series of combat encounters, and the subsequent exploration of locations afterward, he was able to flex his air muscles, and use all 3 of those abilities in a myriad of clever options. He was able to use them to do crowd control in combat, help us move around the map more easily, AND also be useful in combat with a powerful attack Impulse.
And what can my Universalist do? With my "tapping into all the elements flexibility"? Well I picked Tremor (Earth) that morning, so unless I was in a cluster of enemies that I could burst attack...I could do mostly nothing.
It feels kind of insane to limit the type, that is supposed to be the most flexible, to literally a one trick pony, and they have to swap it out every day, like a filthy caster memorizing spells. So he's basically a 1 spell wizard/sorc.
My thoughts on how to let low level Universalists actually FEEL like they are flexible, are as follows. Basically let them switch their Impulse out more frequently than once per day. That's just crazy.
1. Let them spend a 3 point action to change their elemental alignment in combat. I start a session aligned to Earth, but then we are fighting undead, so I'd REALLY like to switch to Fire? Ok, no problem, I use up an entire turn's worth of actions to re-align to fire. Boom, next turn I can start cooking zombies. Groovy. My GM wasn't as big a fan of this, as he felt letting a Universalist swap out their alignment so easily (basically 6 seconds), would make them OP out of combat situations. Effectively giving them access to every lvl 1 Impulse at the drop of a hat. I can kind of see that, but my counter to him is these games are almost entirely battle simulators, so I don't feel them being OP for an aspect of gameplay, that probably only constitutes 10% for most groups, is that OP. But that's just my thoughts.
2. Allow them to swap out their alignment using a 10 minute action. Paizo seems to love the 10 minute timeframe for significant actions. From repairing a shield, to using healing powers/skills, doing my taxes, you name it. You do a really useful thing, it takes you 10 minutes to do it. Ok, well let Universalists do that too. It lets them be more flexible on the fly, without potentially being OP in non-combat. To use the above example of an undead attack. The first encounter, the Universalist might be sub-optimal, because the power they have at that moment is less useful. Ok well, our party now knows we're going to be running into LOTS of undead for the foreseeable future, so let me swap over to Fire during downtime, and now every subsequent encounter, I will feel more effective, like I'm contributing.
One of our players noted there is apparently a lvl 12 feat that lets you do exactly this, but I think it allows you to swap out any Impulses, of any level, but that's a LOOOONG way into a theoretical PC's lifetime, to finally get the famed flexibility of the archetype. Literally over half of a PC's level lifetime, to even get the ability to do it. Let them do that at lvl 1, but it only applies to their lvl 1 Impulse choice, until if/when they pick up that lvl 12 feat.
3. Let them have more lvl 1 Impulse choices, but limit the maximum Impulse lvl they could reach at max level. They trade off depth of power, for breadth of power. Sort of like how 1st Edition Paladins and Rangers would get Cleric/Druid powers, but as a more reduced progression. And they would never get the ultimate spells. I'm sort of a mixed mind on this one, as I can see it being a good or bad choice.
Ultimately, I think the Universalist, as they are built, are the LEAST versatile of the bunch, and given the progression track for the class, they don't really get any range or versatility at a pace that actually feels fun. Basically, the mechanics of them, REALLY don't match the flavor text for them. As it's far easier to be more versatile, by simply sticking to a single type, because you get more stuff to work with.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
You're doing universalist wrong.
Entirely wrong.
For example - You're human - Take the ancestral feat that gives you an additional class feat at 1st level.
You now have two class feats at 1st level
Use two of those feats to pick up two elemental feats.. any elemental feats of your choice at 1st level and the 3rd one? You can choose a different one once per day.
So you should have a total of 3 feats as a human as a possibility.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Universalist are already the most powerful gate - You want them to be even more powerful?
I'm a bit confused what you mean by "swapping out what element you're attuned to". A universalist doesn't attune to a single element, they can channel whatever element they want. Unless you're talking about the 1st level feat you can swap out each day?
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Blissey1 wrote: I'm a bit confused what you mean by "swapping out what element you're attuned to". A universalist doesn't attune to a single element, they can channel whatever element they want. Unless you're talking about the 1st level feat you can swap out each day? Yeah I don't think they realize you can both use earth and fire skills at the same time or something? As long as you gather the appropriate element for it.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The once per day change on the feat, only, compared to dual and dedicated which cant change their feats...
By level 2, any kineticist can have an impulse from three of the four elements and humans can have all four. That's pretty good flexibility for a universal gate.
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Universalist gets better as they level as well. Being able to switch elements on combat means you have multiple damage types, damage dice, range increments, etc. to choose from. You get to switch if a certain elemental resistance comes up. But most importantly you can pick any element when picking up impulse feats which is so strong. Aaaand it really helps when you can pick up situational feats as they come up, like movement types, resistance auras, healing, whatever.
The gates could definitely be balanced better though. Early levels aren't great, and later on it's too strong. Similarly dedicated gate can be good early (depending if you're happy with the first level feats, you do get three but they're not all winners so it doesn't feel rewarding all the time) and falls off very fast.
Some ideas - universal gate gets two feats at first level, and impulse feats they take have to be balanced between the elements (can't have more than 2 feats of an element more than any other). Dedicated gate gets two extra feats, but they can be of any impulse feat they have access to, changeable on level up.
Level 9 you get to pick from a truly obscene number of feats, level 15 even more so. Level 12 with Rapid Reattunement you can shuffle these for the low low cost of 10 minutes.
All while you get all 4 types of blasts, and eventually all 4 immunities at once!
It's really the strongest.
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I think the difference between the gate choices needs to be smoothed out. Dedicated Gate is the winner at very low levels but gets almost nothing else out of the bargain, while Universal deals with a little bit of a feat bottleneck at low levels in exchange for being amazing at high levels. For dual... well, you get cycling blast which is cool.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote: I think the difference between the gate choices needs to be smoothed out. Dedicated Gate is the winner at very low levels but gets almost nothing else out of the bargain, while Universal deals with a little bit of a feat bottleneck at low levels in exchange for being amazing at high levels. For dual... well, you get cycling blast which is cool. I personally like the idea of the 3 free feats for dedicated, 2 for dual, and 1 for universal. But dedicated needs some end game love and universal needs some beginning game love.
Yeah at 1st level it seems like Dedicated and Dual are the leaders, with Universalist hurting. The higher you get the more Universalist pulls ahead with Dual kind of staying in the middle at all times, and also the higher you get the more Dedicated falls behind. Universalist best benefits from the 9th and 15th level feats that can be changed each day, and of course the level 12 feat to change a feat out in a 10 minute period or the level 20 feat to change an Impulse as an action which is outright amazing for a Universalist.
While I do like the three feats at 1st level for Dedicated, it quicky falls behind and it would be nice if Dedicated could get more higher level Impulse feats to continue the focus on a single element idea.
Dual could possibly use a few extra feats as they level as well, but I feel like that is less important. What would be nice is if they could have both of their elements gathered at the same time, or combine then into a single hybrid element as some have talked about in other threads.
Universalist does feel like it might need more feats early on. The longer you go the more you can spread out. Don't want it to step on the toes of the Dedicated or Dual, but until they get some more feats under their belt, or hit the 10 minute switch out at 12th or 1 action switch out at 20th, they might feel really limited. Of course when they can switch their Impulses out on a whim they also would tend to overshadow the other two gates.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
happyninja42 wrote: ...like a filthy caster memorizing spells. Was that really necessary?
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Ravingdork wrote: happyninja42 wrote: ...like a filthy caster memorizing spells. Was that really necessary? We're playing around with water and earth and you're surprised to see someone tossing around a little mud? I don't think fictional wizards are getting their feelings hurt.
Verzen wrote: For example - You're human - Take the ancestral feat that gives you an additional class feat at 1st level.
You now have two class feats at 1st level
Use two of those feats to pick up two elemental feats.. any elemental feats of your choice at 1st level and the 3rd one? You can choose a different one once per day.
So you should have a total of 3 feats as a human as a possibility.
Don't forget the feat to get medium armor for your strength Universalist. Oh, and another to use str for your blasts... How many feats was it again? :(
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graystone wrote: Don't forget the feat to get medium armor for your strength Universalist. Oh, and another to use str for your blasts... How many feats was it again? :( If you're planning on going str universalist with the feat to make your ranged blasts work off str... then your early-game flexibility really ought to be about which element you're using to blast with, rather than your other powers. Then, too, at that point you should be investing in athletics... and at that point you should be doing reasonably well as far as flexibility is concerned.
graystone wrote: Ravingdork wrote: happyninja42 wrote: ...like a filthy caster memorizing spells. Was that really necessary? We're playing around with water and earth and you're surprised to see someone tossing around a little mud? I don't think fictional wizards are getting their feelings hurt. Not fictional wizards, but the players of those fictional wizards might get rather upset.
I wonder if the solution is just to not allow people to be universal at level one. Maybe it is something that they have to build towards, with people that don't getting some other kind of bonus. This could make becoming a dual gate a feat choice that could be made at higher levels.
Or maybe you even keep the choice of single or dual gate at first level, and then give them an upgrade choice at some other level. A single gate could choose between becoming a dual gate, or getting some bonus ( I could see this being the only way to gain legendary proficiency). And duel gates get to choose to become universal or gaining a bonus.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dokers wrote: I wonder if the solution is just to not allow people to be universal at level one. Maybe it is something that they have to build towards, with people that don't getting some other kind of bonus. This could make becoming a dual gate a feat choice that could be made at higher levels.
Or maybe you even keep the choice of single or dual gate at first level, and then give them an upgrade choice at some other level. A single gate could choose between becoming a dual gate, or getting some bonus ( I could see this being the only way to gain legendary proficiency). And duel gates get to choose to become universal or gaining a bonus.
Boring solutions.
Allow dedicated to increase DC with their blasts by 2 and all impulses increase by 1 die size.
Dual gate - all blasts deal both damage types. When activating an aura, they activate two auras at once for two actions total. Each impulse is considered both elements.
Universal - As it currently is.
This will allow dedicated to be the best with one element and hit the hardest.
Dual gate would be the best at combining damage types and auras but each impulse is slightly weaker than dedicated.
Universal can treat their elements like a buffet.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
OP's GM here, the issue popped up because we were playing a prewritten adventure with a long investigation sequence in the beginning, and a few combats in mostly tight spaces. the Universalist had Tremor prepared but kept wishing they had picked Tremorsense instead. the first chance to prepare again is probably a session or longer away, so won't even be before the playtest is over.
I think perhaps building in a 10 minute level 1 impluse swap to the universalist at level one wouldn't be game breaking but the one action or 3 action suggestions would be. This would even be complementary with Rapid Reattunment because unlike omnikinesis it doesn't call out the universal gate impluse feat as one that can be swapped with the feat. ( a choice that might likely be an oversight, but hard to say )
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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Verzen wrote: You're doing universalist wrong.
Entirely wrong.
For example - You're human - Take the ancestral feat that gives you an additional class feat at 1st level.
You now have two class feats at 1st level
Use two of those feats to pick up two elemental feats.. any elemental feats of your choice at 1st level and the 3rd one? You can choose a different one once per day.
So you should have a total of 3 feats as a human as a possibility.
If the proposed solution is to play a single ancestry out of the so very many that we have available, it seems more like an admission there is a problem than a fix to it.
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If I'm being honest I'm not convinced that universal "pulls ahead" at higher levels.
The conjecture depends on there being impulses from 3 or 4 different elements that, when combined, give unique advantages. But what are those combos, and how reasonable is it to pull them off in battle? Do they really eclipse what a Dual element can do with two?
Getting access to all blasts, extracts, and defenses is quite good - especially the extracts for fighting elementals and dragons!
But consider a universalist at level 10 - if they are taking Cycling Blast, Aura Control, Gather Amalgamation (Gather Amalgamation is of questionable usefulness, but its often mentioned) then they have feats free: 1(any), 1(flexible impulse), 2, 4, 9 (flexible 8th or lower). Rapid reatunement (12) was mentioned as being incredible for universalists because they can adjust their flexible powers more than anyone else, and flowing kinetics (14) is a massive mobility increase... but this doesn't leave any room for impulse powers! Luckily another flexible one appears at 15.
That was kind of an extreme example, but what I'm getting at is that if a Universalist takes all of the feats that have been mentioned as making them amazing (or are just incredible for kineticists in general), they have no room left to take impulse powers. They can't have everything and need to actually pick a build/strategy.
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Universal can, to a degree, do any strategy. That's the point. They can take all the utility impulses from all the elements and they can use every blast. Especially with Rapid Reattunement and Omnikinesis (though the latter is much later in the game) they can do this with just 10-20 minutes to adjust.
To take advantage of this they wouldn't be able to take all the general Kineticist feats, but they only really need Rapid Reattunement to be ahead of the game with the level 9 feat, and way ahead at 15. They don't have as good an early progression, but they end up with significantly more options available to them. Literally every impulse is at their fingertips.
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They can swap to those impulses with 10 minutes at level 12... but only a few are flexible (up to 2 at level 15) and only at impulse levels (<=8, <=14), and otherwise their choices must be locked in. And this ability isn't free: it cost them their level 12 feat.
This is quite good for allowing them to take the out of combat utility powers, such as the water breathing one, or flight (though they probably already have flight). Or they can swap in a healing power, heal up, and swap out, thats a good one. If they got intel about a particular enemy type that had a weakness they could swap to a power that has that damage type. However...
They can't take everything at the same time, and they can't swap in combat. Their feat choices are as locked in as everyone else. Any given build could be taking from any element sure, but they still need to have a build. "Universalists" as a group can do anything, but a "universalist" cannot.
Happyninja42, I must commend you on the PERFECT form utilizing Cunningham's Law in order to illicit the actual in-depth correct analysis that Universal Gates have outsize power and flexibility compared to the other two options.
/slowclap
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Themetricsystem wrote: Happyninja42, I must commend you on the PERFECT form utilizing Cunningham's Law in order to illicit the actual in-depth correct analysis that Universal Gates have outside power and flexibility compared to the other two options.
/slowclap
At the same time, they raised a point which I don't think had been raised before - that at level 1, it's easy for the universal kineticist to feel really limited, especially if they pick their initial bonus elemental feat poorly and/or are sharing a party with a dedicated gate kineticist. The whole feelsbad thing there is a useful bit of feedback, especially given that basically everybody starts out at level 1 the first time they walk in the door.
I had commented about this in another topic. But it's like the currently Kineticist subclass benefits works in a similar way to Cleric ones.
For clerics usually Warpriest doctrine is way more interesting at low levels thane Cloistered. You basically have the same proficiency + medium armor + shield block + expert fortitude + Deadly Simplicity.
While Cloistered one only receives Domain Initiate at first level.
But as the game progresses the Warpriest progression is worse than cloistered. Cloistered spellcasting proficiency progress faster and becomes legendary while warpriest is not only considerably slower and stick in master. So in the end the cloistered becomes a better spellcaster than warpriest.
The currently subclass progression os dedicated kineticist is similar it's has more low level impulses and in early game the low number of feats hinders it. But in higher levels the universalist can use their ability to easily switch the impulses adapting for each necessity specially if it has Rapid Reattunement or Omnikinesis.
IMO I strongly dislike such approach. Because it's not balanced between different levels and this do a wrong metagame's stimulus to take the best gate based in the adventure level and in long adventures like APs this stimulate the retrain or remade the char archieve the highest levels to benefit from the best of each option.
The subclasses need to change to something that benefict all gates from begining to the end of the game in a similar way.
My sugestion is to do a radical change and turn the gates into something similar to how the orders works for druids.
The char would begin with only one gate, and can take more gates via feats. In order to prevent this to consume a large number of feats the class can adquire one extra Elemental Impulse Feat in each odd level instead of begin with 3 level 1 extra Elemental Impulse Feats and have Elemental Flexibility and Improved Elemental Flexibility (they could be adquired as feats instead in place of Rapid Reattunement and Omnikinesis). Instead allowing to swicth one of this feats every level or with retraining just like expontaneous spellcasters switch their spells.
This way universalist switch to something that you can be in trade of some feats (but probably most multielement players strategies will stick in having just 2 or 3 elements instead of all). Loosing some feats versatility in place of elements versatility also would improve the Elemental Impulse options too once instead of receive just 3-5 extra that can be potentially all level 14 and bellow for chars with Rapid Reattunement or Omnikinesis the char would receive 10 extra incluiding lvl 16 and 18 ones that can switch with retrain or buying (Improved) Elemental Flexibility as feat.
Sanityfaerie wrote: At the same time, they raised a point which I don't think had been raised before - that at level 1, it's easy for the universal kineticist to feel really limited, especially if they pick their initial bonus elemental feat poorly and/or are sharing a party with a dedicated gate kineticist. The whole feelsbad thing there is a useful bit of feedback, especially given that basically everybody starts out at level 1 the first time they walk in the door. Oh, it's very easy to feel really limited at lvl 9 too. That could probably be the issue of the kineticist as a whole, not exactly universalist's. Not that useful today's feats, wrong formation of the wrong enemies, flight while great could do literally nothing in a lot of combats, no place for Aura shaping because of flight - and you are stuck flinging anemic Elemental Blasts around. Crit! 20 dmg at 9th level! SO POWER! CRIT! 8 DMG at 9th lvl! WOW! (good thing I took one of the 2 useful crit specializations, a fire)
Errenor wrote: Sanityfaerie wrote: At the same time, they raised a point which I don't think had been raised before - that at level 1, it's easy for the universal kineticist to feel really limited, especially if they pick their initial bonus elemental feat poorly and/or are sharing a party with a dedicated gate kineticist. The whole feelsbad thing there is a useful bit of feedback, especially given that basically everybody starts out at level 1 the first time they walk in the door. Oh, it's very easy to feel really limited at lvl 9 too. That could probably be the issue of the kineticist as a whole, not exactly universalist's. Not that useful today's feats, wrong formation of the wrong enemies, flight while great could do literally nothing in a lot of combats, no place for Aura shaping because of flight - and you are stuck flinging anemic Elemental Blasts around. Crit! 20 dmg at 9th level! SO POWER! CRIT! 8 DMG at 9th lvl! WOW! (good thing I took one of the 2 useful crit specializations, a fire)
Yeah... having some flat damage to bring your floor up helps a lot to avoid that scenario. I like lower variance.
In general though - a class needs to feel good to play at early levels, and I can absolutely see that not being the case for Universal Gate right now. Dedicated and Dual Gate get to pick up offense and utility impulses easily to just always have available.
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