I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.
You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.
This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.
This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.
A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.
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I mean, fixing the kineticist's damage is a matter of adjusting its numbers a bit.
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As opposed to right now where they are the lowest DPS class in the game?
Yes, those are the only two options for any class: make it ultra-powerful or make it terribly weak. The concept of a middle ground is a lie promoted by big-gaming! OPEN YOUR EYES!
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As opposed to right now where they are the lowest DPS class in the game?I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.
You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.
This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.
This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.
A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.
It is also the only class in the game in playtest state.
Gunslinger literally didn't even have Way reloads in the playtest.
Magus Spellstrike took 2 attack rolls to function.
Most classes get buffed before full release and it's simple to give Kineticist better single target damage without making it a better fighter.
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I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.
You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.
This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.
This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.
A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? Gunslingers already cheated off the Fighter with having Legendary in Firearms at the same scaling of Fighters. So we have precedent that it's okay for other classes to have the same scaling as others, so long as it isn't a complete overwrite of the class. Even despite that, as it stands, a Kineticist with Legendary Class DC wouldn't be any better than or poach from any class because 1. It doesn't exist yet, meaning it's not stepping on anyone's toes, and 2. Nothing substantial for a given class relies on its Class DC to the point that it's broken to allow it. Heck, you can't even cheat the system using abilities from other classes (like Stunning Fist from Monk via Flurry of Blows and its respective MCD), because those abilities use the Monk Class DC, which you are only trained in thanks to MCD having the limitations present in the main ability for being trained in a given class DC, and any abilities gained from your MCD that rely on Class DC refer to your MCD Class DC, not your actual Class DC. So, current mechanics means you can't just take Kineticist and go Monk MCD to "perma-stun" enemies with "unarmed strikes" at the super-uber Class DC of Kineticist.
Also, I'm not sure elemental damage is better than physical, especially since as of right now, only one element does elemental damage, and that's Fire. So having the option to do Fire damage over physical is better, by being the most commonly resisted/immunized element in the game? Even more than any form of physical resistance? With that clarification in mind, are you sure you still want to die on the hill that Elemental>Physical? And no, Acid/Cold/Electricity/Sonic don't count currently, because that's not what's available to us in the playtest, even if chances are, we'll get it later.
I will also say that, if they're trying to be a "master of elements," they're doing a poor job at it, simply because the only "element" they benefit from is Fire. Yes, the others have the respective traits, but only do Bludgeoning damage, and except for a select set of creatures, those respective traits don't mean jack. Meanwhile, Spellcasters have access to Cantrips that can do Fire, Acid, Cold, Electricity, Bludgeoning, Sonic, Piercing, Slashing, Mental, Negative/Positive, Alignment-Based...woah. That basically covers most damage types that most any character can reliably do. So by all means, tell me again that Kineticists have more elemental mastery over even a basic of basic spellcasters. As it stands, they can't touch what a spellcaster already does in their sleep. Wow, such a master of elements, I feel so overwhelmed by being able to do two damage types, only one of them being elemental.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? Gunslingers already cheated off the Fighter with having Legendary in Firearms at the same scaling of Fighters. So we have precedent that it's okay for other classes to have the same scaling as others, so long as it isn't a complete overwrite of the class. Even despite that, as it stands, a Kineticist with Legendary Class DC wouldn't be any better than or poach from any class because 1. It doesn't exist yet, meaning it's not stepping on anyone's...I think this class would have a lot of its issues fixed if it got expert class DC at level 1, changed the elemental blast from a combat ability into more of a 1 action attack cantrip that is based off of class DC, and got up to legendary in class DC much like how fighter gets expert in weapons at level 1.
You could even make it so they can still use runes on a sort of conduit item that allows them to add runes to their elemental blast.
This then would allow the kineticist to actually specialize in one aspect and that's blasting. Right now it tries to be a martial and a spellcaster(sort of) and does neither of them really well and causes the entire class to be worse off. If we need to focus, we should focus on this aspect and make it so when it comes to blasting, they can land them relatively consistently compared with other blasting options.
This would literally turn the Kineticist into a fighter that attacks with Constitution and presumably elemental damage, which is inherently better than physical. Which in the structure of the game even if the cantrips we're physical the accuracy would consume power budget so it would be lower utility. And high accuracy, high single target damage at the cost of utility is the exact opposite of what the Kineticist was in 1e.
A class whose entire gimmick is a mastery of elements should probably do more than shoot lasers and they should probably not rob one of the most requested ports of one of the key parts of its identity.
Yes. An attack cantrip that scales off fighter tier proficiency and gets item bonuses from runes is a bad thing because that means they are as accurate as a fighter and gunslinger and attack with elemental damage. Even if it were only fire, the kineticist could just go dual element and be better than fighter against the majority of enemies in the game and just as good against fire resistant enemies. Not to mention also enchant a ranged and melee option with one set of runes. Plus, Extract Element is still in the class for some of the fire resist enemies.
Also, you know what is an astronomically more common resistance than fire? Resistance to physical damage.
Also you're judging their mastery of the elements solely on their pew pew laser and ignoring the rest of the class. Mastery of the elements isn't just PEWPEWPEW lasers and attacking. A kineticist can use the elements to move people around the battlefield, create walls, make fields of difficult terrain, etc. In order to be fighter/gunslinger the kineticist would need to be far lower utility and thus far far less a master of the elements by every other metric than PEWPEWPEW.
The Kineticist is one of the most requested ports from 1e and was middle of the road damage with cool utility powers. They should just buff the playtest's single target damage and move on. NOT force it into a class chassis the original was the exact opposite of and remove a big part of its core identity.
A master of the elements class that only shoots lasers is boring and doesn't live up to the fantasy. If they are going to give me the option to play a master of the air element I better the heck be able to fly and make tornadoes. If I am given a master of earth I better be able to walk through the earth and mess with the ground.
If they want to make a magic fighter they should make a new magic pew pew class with no baggage or expectations.
Harder if you are turned into a fighter and thus don't have anything but lasers due to system balance around accuracy.
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The thing about class DC, is that both damage numbers and effects can be boosted without touching accuracy.
Once you touch accuracy, what you can do with numbers and effects get more restricted because the end result of what the class can do is dialed into a pretty tightly woven mathematical frame work.
But because crits (both good and bad) happen 5% of the time, even when the numbers are otherwise not in your favor, it is better for saving throw abilities to have over the top effects on crits, and better general damage die numbers, rather than for all of it to get dialed into a lower peaks medium with better accuracy. This is especially true on abilities with AoE that force multiple saves.
The developers know this and this is why there are not magic items to boost Spell DCs, but why they did boost damage numbers on spells aggressively in the original playtest of PF2.
Better spell/class DCs equal less impressive powers.
I sincerely hope we get boosted impulse powers (including more damage and more effects on successful saves) rather than accuracy boosting.
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So your answer is - Fighters should be better at elemental blast than kineticist and wizards should be better at elemental damage than kineticists?
I can be against the idea of making them better fighters without implying they are fine.
I literally said they should buff the playtest.
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Yes. An attack cantrip that scales off fighter tier proficiency and gets item bonuses from runes is a bad thing because that means they are as accurate as a fighter and gunslinger and attack with elemental damage. Even if it were only fire, the kineticist could just go dual element and be better than fighter against the majority of enemies in the game and just as good against fire resistant enemies. Not to mention also enchant a ranged and melee option with one set of runes. Plus, Extract Element is still in the class for some of the fire resist enemies.
Also, you know what is an astronomically more common resistance than fire? Resistance to physical damage.
Also you're judging their mastery of the elements solely on their pew pew laser and ignoring the rest of the class. Mastery of the elements isn't just PEWPEWPEW lasers and attacking. A kineticist can use the elements to move people around the battlefield, create walls, make fields of difficult terrain, etc. In order to be fighter/gunslinger the kineticist would need to be far lower utility and thus far far less a master of the elements by every other metric than PEWPEWPEW.
The Kineticist is one of the most requested ports from 1e and was middle of the road damage with cool utility powers. They should just buff the playtest's single target damage and move on. NOT force it into a class chassis the original was the exact opposite of and remove a big part of its core identity.
A master of the elements class that only shoots lasers is boring and doesn't live up to the fantasy. If they are going to give me the option to play a master of the air element I better the heck be able to fly and make tornadoes. If I am given a master of earth I better be able to walk through the earth and mess with the ground.
If they want to make a magic fighter they should make a new magic pew pew class with no baggage or expectations.
Okay, but I ask again: What makes this a bad thing to have? You're not stepping on Fighter's toes with having the same accuracy scaling. You won't be able to transfer said accuracy scaling to any other abilities that rely on said accuracy with abilities like Stunning Fist. I am asking you to explain what in particular, on a mechanical level, makes this a bad idea to permit, when the mechanics are already balanced and checked against such shenanigans. If you can't provide one, then I'm just chalking it up to you having personal hangups on this, in which case there's no point in debating this portion anymore.
Let's say you're right, that Physical Resistance is far more prevalent than Fire: If that's genuinely true, it doesn't change the fact that Physical Resistance can be overcome in multiple ways, either by using proper material weaponry (such as against golems/constructs, devils, etc.), or even Versatile traits on weapons (if they are resistant to Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing). On top of that, Physical damage also has the most static modifier bonuses to apply to it, such as a key stat, Weapon Specialization, weapon traits, status bonuses from Inspire Courage et. al., and so on. Can Fire Damage overcome it? Not really. Short of a Greater Flaming weapon, it's not overcoming Resistances, and Immunities are a no-go regardless. Plenty of things Immune to Fire, right? What things are Immune to Physical? Practically nothing. How many things are Immune to Fire? Far more than things that are Immune to Physical. Way to ignore another crucial portion of the equation just to convenience your argument. And for damage boosts, what does Fire damage get? Maybe a key stat, if it's a cantrip. Otherwise, not really. It's pretty static. Which is why Resistances to it is far more potent. Physical damage is far easier to power through, and isn't as punishing if you don't have a weapon of the appropriate damage type, or material. Really, Physical Resistances are more for speed-bumping attacks to more manageable levels of sustaining and re-healing damage, than they are as a means of being a very effective/potent deterrent to Physical Attacks.
Okay, let's move away from the PEWPEW aspect of things, then: All you're telling me is a list of the things a Wizard can do with appropriately prepared spells. A Wall of Stone to divide enemies? Done with a spell. Control or Create Water? Also done with a similar spell. Flight? Again, done. Fireball? Once more, it's accomplished, and probably at an earlier level, for more damage, with a better DC scaling. Really, the only thing a Kineticist has that's better than what a prepared Wizard does is their ability to constantly do some or all of those things, which can have value, but often that value is lost because they won't have that many situations where they can sink in 3-4+ encounters in a given adventuring day that often relies on them using their schticks, or against enemies where not having that optimized DC will take that much longer to kill/defeat enemies. And with enough levels and certain playstyles, a Wizard can certainly match the required amount of times the party would benefit from or require these effects to take place. So are they really going to be better than a Wizard in terms of elemental effectiveness? With a singular element, probably not, since many Spells can't be replicated with mundane means. Even with a universal gate, you're spread too thin to cover all the things a Wizard can cover. At best you're just a Sorcerer (or other Spontaneous Spellcaster) with a different flavoring/limitation factor for your constancy. Is that what we want the Kineticist to be? Elemental Bloodline Sorcerer-Lite?
Of course it was requested, a lot of things get requested without first considering how it should be balanced, or how it should play out, because people go "I WANT AIRBENDING IN PATHFINDER LIKE FROM AVATAR." (Yes, even if the developers did this, I'm still inclined to disagree with that statement.) IMO, a Kineticist doesn't work out very well with the PF2 chassis simply because PF1 Kineticist ran with mechanics that suited the PF1 chassis quite well, and doesn't translate to PF2 in the same way, or even in a viable way. Basically, those mechanics can't be replicated easily in PF2: Focus Points aren't very flexible, nor are they viable enough to be its own unique source of power to build an entire character around. Comparatively, Burn in PF1 was such a divisive mechanic that implementing it in this game would be problematic or create weird interactions that are confusing to the player(s), and it was a crucial part of the Kineticist's design in PF1, meaning trying to implement it in PF2 would create a lot of friction/turn off to the class. And people think giving them at-will abilities with things like Wall of Stone, or Flight, or the ability to throw Fireballs, is enough to absolutely gut the rest of the chassis to less-than-cantrip levels of power. Of course, individual spells put in optimal circumstances will make them seem overly powerful, but their power comes from circumstantial application. They aren't as universal a rule as "sticking bad guys with pointy ends means bad guys fall down."
IMO, the Kineticist, as it's presented to us, is too ambitious of a class to fit the balance expectations already set to us in the game. It needs to cut down on the idea of being single-gated or dual-gated, because those are too neutered to be effective, and universal-gated characters are too flexible, which is why the neutering affects the single-gated/dual-gated Kineticists far more than anything. I understand wanting to have a "class path" for the class, but it's just too clunky and imbalanced between itself. Being a universal means you get less bonus feats, but who cares when you have so much flexibility in your choices? By contrast, a single-gate means you can come across entire encounters where your character does absolutely nothing, and in the case of Fire Kineticists, that's the most amount of encounters by comparison to even a Fighter facing a flying enemy with a back-up ranged weapon: At least the Fighter can still strike and potentially do some damage to an enemy. Enemies immune to Fire damage means the Kineticist stands zero chance at defeating it, which is just plain bad design.
Really, they should just take a page from Fighter and let the feats and player playstyles decide how a given Kineticist will be specialized. There's no reason not to do this, because if players want to play an Air Kineticist, they just won't use the other elements. It's that simple. If players want to utilize the other elements, let them. They'll just need the feats to do all the cool/uber/"overpowered" stuff that the Kineticist is known for, and by making the baseline effects pretty garbage, you'll achieve that fair compromise of being the best at a given element at the expense of not using (flavored as not having) the other elements, versus being a jack of all trades at each one, never surpassing someone who's specialized in it.
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It's worth remembering that class DC can affect quite a number of things: critical specialization effects for various weapon groups, various offensive ancestry options, etc.
While there is some variation in how various classes progress their class DCs, it's not large. Granting Kineticists a significantly better class DC progression would seriously throw off the power balance for those other uses.
It's worth remembering that class DC can affect quite a number of things: critical specialization effects for various weapon groups, various offensive ancestry options, etc.
While there is some variation in how various classes progress their class DCs, it's not large. Granting Kineticists a significantly better class DC progression would seriously throw off the power balance for those other uses.
There aren't many critical specialization effects that require a Class DC. Brawling, Firearm, and Sling weapons have a Stunned 1 result after a Fortitude Save, but that's it. And given that Kineticists are only proficient in Unarmed and Simple weapons, and their preferred weapon of choice doesn't even use those weapon groups and has their own critical specializations, it won't matter so much that a character is going to build specifically around those items instead. Even if they do, they still need to use Strength or Dexterity to make those Critical Hits land (assuming no Natural 20's are in play), meaning they are less likely to Critical compared to any other given martial class.
I am confused as to which ancestry options require a Class DC. I'm not saying they don't exist, but none of import come to mind that aren't just innate spells. And most innate spells refer to a Spell DC, not a Class DC. Same goes for any class-specific options, since those have their own set Class DC separate from your own that applies to options granted from the given dedication.
Outside of that, the other things (like Critical Hit/Fumble cards) are more houserule territory than anything, so using them as a means to balance a class around is not a very compelling argument. This would be like balancing the game's future content around Free Archetype being a popular baseline: It's just not going to happen because it's an alternate ruleset, and not the one that Paizo originally published the game to be played as.
One potential issue would be tengu feather fan which could give you electric arc with this hypothetical boosted proficiency. Other notable ones are kobold breath and the elemental dwarf AOE.
There's also a tenancy in newer stuff to have archetype options scale off the higher of your Class DC or Spell DC. So essentially the change suggested in the original post would give an attack option on par with a fighter's accuracy from legendary scaling and also legendary scaling in those things.
One potential issue would be tengu feather fan which could give you electric arc with this hypothetical boosted proficiency. Other notable ones are kobold breath and the elemental dwarf AOE.
I don't think the Tengu Feather Fan works with the Electric Arc acquired from Storm's Lash. That's a separate feat with separate DC application, and Tengu Feather Fan doesn't outright call innate spells with the Tengu trait as being applicable to use with the Tengu Feather Fan. With that, we can safely assume that only the spells from the Tengu Feather Fan feats would carry that added DC, which is Gust of Wind, Wall of Wind, and Lightning Bolt, all of which require their own feats to utilize. It also requires a hand occupied by the fan, meaning you can't do other utility things with that hand, such as draw and drink potions, perform Material component spells, etc. The damage from Lightning Bolt isn't very powerful at the level it's acquired (you have access to 7th level spells at this point), and Wall of Wind is relatively niche, as well as Gust of Wind. Just as well, you can only activate the Tengu Feather Fan three times per day, meaning it's not an at-will ability that's benefitting from an increased DC. If anything, I think it would be a good thing for a Tengu Air Kineticist to buy into with their Ancestry feats to supplement their existing Air Kineticism, which would be some awesome flavor options, or to add in some lesser Air Kineticism power through other means if they chose a different element. Either way, not seeing the "Too OP" portion here, and it just sounds like a poor excuse to disallow flavoring for fear of overpowering mechanics. Stormwind Fallacy, anyone?
The Kobold Breath does scale, but its area is short and its damage isn't that strong for its actions required. It also has a cooldown that is, on average, limited to once, maybe twice, in a fight. If a character is building with this ability in mind, chances are they'll either acquire Legendary proficiency through other means (if they are a Spellcaster, for example), meaning it won't be broken by that point, or it'll be put on that niche area of "nice to use, but not mandatory if the situation might call for it." It gets a bit more hairy when you throw in feats like Dragonblood Paragon (they are more likely to critically fail with the heightened DCs), and Dragon's Breath (making the damage more powerful), but enemy Save DCs are already built with the increased DCs in mind, meaning odds are, they will only fail (meaning Dragonblood Paragon does not trigger here), and Dragon's Breath is limited to only once per hour (AKA once per fight at-best), and takes you out of the base Kobold Breath ability for that entire time as well, so you can't just use it as a means of "amping" the effect once per hour just to use the lesser version of the ability soon after, and if you're using it before you decide to amp it, you still follow the 1D4 round cooldown before you can choose to "amp" it. Once again, I'm not seeing how this is broken, given that there are already inherent limitations in place to make it not that powerful or constant, even if it is definitely the most powerful option it's enhanced thus far.
The Energy Emanation base ability requires 2 actions to use, and is limited to once per day, affects only adjacent creatures (not just enemies), and only does 1D6 per 2 levels, capping out at 10D6 at 19th. It's also limited to one energy type (which can't be changed once chosen), and requires an additional feat which expands the area slightly, and adjusts the damage scale to actually be acceptable in the higher levels. Given its awful area, once per day limitation, and requiring a specific Heritage and higher level Ancestry Feat, I'm once again scratching my head at how the added DC is making it too powerful. Yes, its DC is 2 higher than is typical for another character, but is that really a bad thing, given this is an Elemental effect to begin with, and we're talking about a Kineticist? It's literally in the Heritage name, Elemental Heart Dwarf. You're telling me a Kineticist can't be simply better with a given Elemental effect because it's never happened before, and therefore we can't have a class that breaks that mold?
I'm genuinely curious if anyone has had any real play experience where abilities like the ones described have come up and either trivialized a fight, or prevented a TPK from occurring with the current scaling, and expressing if the expanded scaling would break the game in a way unforeseen. As it stands, I'm simply not seeing a situation (much less a common situation) where 2 higher DC to these abilities means the effect is too powerful and has to be curtailed. Short of Kobold's Breath constancy (which still has relatively awful damage for its actions, and requires being in an enemy's face to pull off, not recommended for a D8 Light Armor class without a D10 Heavy Armor or D12 Medium Armor class taking the brunt of the blows), I'm not seeing how this would often come into play.
I will say that it does make me question when they should get their Class DC boosts, since if they scale the same as a Fighter's to-hit, it's way too egregious, but if they start at Expert, and they increase their class proficiencies the same rate as every other class, which is Master at 9th and Legendary at 17th, they won't be that much farther ahead of spellcasters and other characters to the point that it matters, or at least that it matters enough to warrant fulfilling the niche adequately.
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Okay, but I ask again: What makes this a bad thing to have? You're not stepping on Fighter's toes...
I don’t want to repeat my post from earlier, but Darksol, I answered this question in that post. Boosting the accuracy per this suggestion, going from expert to Legendary is going reduce how much damage the impulses can do on successful saves, what riders can be applied on successful saves and reduce both on what can happen on critical failures as well. The end result will be the same average damage, but less awesome things when the enemy crit fails, and less debuffing on a success.
Which might sound fine until you realize the place this will hurt you the most is against those higher level solo monsters that you can’t buff/debuff the math enough to get to crit fail on anything but a 1. Big crit riders and damage are useful when your crit chance will stay at 5% even as your ability to get them to fail a save gets reduced to 25 to 40% against tough enemies. And having higher damage dice but lower accuracy also boosts the overall DPR in those tough fights very effectively. So if there is an assumed DPR potential ceiling for AoE abilities with riders, then our current damage numbers on impulses are probably closer to what would stay if they boosted accuracy like this, while damage numbers and cool rider effects can go up more with lower accuracy. One of these sounds a lot more fun to me than the other.
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Higher base damage and lower accuracy is worse against higher level foes. Fighter does about the same damage as barbarian against a same level foes but lower levels (or stuff like flat-footed) favors the barbarian more while fighter performs better against higher ac foes.
And honestly I don't think boosting accuracy means they get less interesting stuff either, again looking at the fighter compared to many other martials they get powerful riders like Knockdown, are better at using critical specialization abilities, can even make enemies slowed with their attacks and gets very powerful disrupting tools. I don't think the barbarian neccesarily gets a lot more interesting and powerful riders to their attacks.
Not that I am married to having legendary progression on stuff but I think it seems like a bit of a made up problem that if you boost accuracy that means acrually that you have to make them suck anyways.
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Higher base damage and lower accuracy is worse against higher level foes. Fighter does about the same damage as barbarian against a same level foes but lower levels (or stuff like flat-footed) favors the barbarian more while fighter performs better against higher ac foes.
And honestly I don't think boosting accuracy means they get less interesting stuff either, again looking at the fighter compared to many other martials they get powerful riders like Knockdown, are better at using critical specialization abilities, can even make enemies slowed with their attacks and gets very powerful disrupting tools. I don't think the barbarian neccesarily gets a lot more interesting and powerful riders to their attacks.
Not that I am married to having legendary progression on stuff but I think it seems like a bit of a made up problem that if you boost accuracy that means acrually that you have to make them suck anyways.
Accuracy on attack rolls and accuracy on saving throws are not the same thing. Barbarians don’t do damage on a missed attack.
This proposal was about boosting class DC to expert at start and go up to legendary. Accuracy boosts on abilities that do half damage on a miss increase the DPR of the ability on 3 different results. Fighter abilities that do things like knock down require successful attacks and often a second successful role. A fighter that did damage and did a minor effect like dazzle or frighten 1 on a miss would absolutely be beyond the scope of PF2 game balance
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Breaking the mold isn't necessarily a bad thing it's just that there are better solutions to the problems of the playtest. I for one would appreciate the martial chassis sticking around. That wouldn't fit with a DC scaling like that.
They don't have much of a martial chassis when they are D8/Light/Simple weapon characters. They are basically barely under Rogue level proficiencies, and compared to Barbarians, Rangers, even Magi, they aren't martials. They also have a ton of skill increases and skill feats to compensate. What does the kineticist get? Specialized feats?
Just as well, you're literally saying it's a bad thing by saying it's not an adequate solution to the problem, without explaining why it's not an adequate solution to the problem. "There's better ways to fix this" isn't much of an answer when there haven't been any concrete "better ways" to fix it that have been suggested. In fact, the proposed Class DC increase serves as one of these "better ways," and it is just arbitrarily being treated as non-viable with no expression of reasoning.
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Okay, but I ask again: What makes this a bad thing to have? You're not stepping on Fighter's toes...I don’t want to repeat my post from earlier, but Darksol, I answered this question in that post. Boosting the accuracy per this suggestion, going from expert to Legendary is going reduce how much damage the impulses can do on successful saves, what riders can be applied on successful saves and reduce both on what can happen on critical failures as well. The end result will be the same average damage, but less awesome things when the enemy crit fails, and less debuffing on a success.
Which might sound fine until you realize the place this will hurt you the most is against those higher level solo monsters that you can’t buff/debuff the math enough to get to crit fail on anything but a 1. Big crit riders and damage are useful when your crit chance will stay at 5% even as your ability to get them to fail a save gets reduced to 25 to 40% against tough enemies. And having higher damage dice but lower accuracy also boosts the overall DPR in those tough fights very effectively. So if there is an assumed DPR potential ceiling for AoE abilities with riders, then our current damage numbers on impulses are probably closer to what would stay if they boosted accuracy like this, while damage numbers and cool rider effects can go up more with lower accuracy. One of these sounds a lot more fun to me than the other.
The damage is already considered bad as-is. Increasing the Save DC doesn't mean the damage needs to be made worse to compensate when the damage being low is the compensation being made for this. As for Kineticists being able to inflict negative effects on critical failures, those are few and far between, and really the most potent one is the persistent Fire damage. The rest don't get much else, but again, even if it is overpowered in that department, the damage is already bad to compensate. Making the damage or critical effects worse is basically a lateral movement, which is not the intent of this change, which is to make the current paradigm more potent.
The kineticist already deals with subpar critical specializations with their elements, why is the first solution requiring more neutering of the class?
Higher base damage and lower accuracy is worse against higher level foes. Fighter does about the same damage as barbarian against a same level foes but lower levels (or stuff like flat-footed) favors the barbarian more while fighter performs better against higher ac foes.
And honestly I don't think boosting accuracy means they get less interesting stuff either, again looking at the fighter compared to many other martials they get powerful riders like Knockdown, are better at using critical specialization abilities, can even make enemies slowed with their attacks and gets very powerful disrupting tools. I don't think the barbarian neccesarily gets a lot more interesting and powerful riders to their attacks.
Not that I am married to having legendary progression on stuff but I think it seems like a bit of a made up problem that if you boost accuracy that means acrually that you have to make them suck anyways.
Fighters mostly get better action economy on things other people can already do such as grab and trip, etc. More crit specs and stuff.
Barbarians can get access to elemental damage, breath weapons, size increases, throwing up to huge objects around.
Monks get really high speed and a free twin attack feat, potentially ki spells for magic effects that also gives them baked in spell proficiency so they can be okay at innate spells.
Kineticist is basically one more notch into the utility range where inventor and Thaum are. Where they pay for accuracy to get wilder utility. (And yes I know the inventor and Thaum have damage increasing things. This is a playtest, the Kineticist will get numbers increased)
Fighter being lower utility for increased skill at hitting things doesn't mean they don't get interesting and helpful things. It means they aren't allowed to do crap like fly and stuff or get ki spells, etc.
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This has been your daily infusion of overly complicated solutions with Verzen in the morning.
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I don’t want to repeat my post from earlier, but Darksol, I answered this question in that post. Boosting the accuracy per this suggestion, going from expert to Legendary is going reduce how much damage the impulses can do on successful saves, what riders can be applied on successful saves and reduce both on what can happen on critical failures as well. The end result will be the same average damage, but less awesome things when the enemy crit fails, and less debuffing on a success.
Okay, but I ask again: What makes this a bad thing to have? You're not stepping on Fighter's toes...
I think there can be a way to satisfactorily offer single target damage and accuracy on at least certain parts of the class, and blasts seem to be a way to do that. Maybe allow dedicated gates an option to sacrifice their multitarget traits for higher damage or an accuracy boost? Like, say, Fire optionally loses agile but now is 1d8 or 1d10? It would give Flexible blasts a niche for Fire and Air dedicated gates and diversify builds (enabling a str air kineticist for example).
This might require creative tinkering, but I think it can be done without unbalancing the whole class.
I think part of what is making these discussions around Kineticist accuracy confusing is that impulses covers both blasts, which use unarmed attack proficiency and area of effect abilities that require a defender to make a saving throw. Clearly both are getting talked about in this thread and that leads to a lot of talking past each other.
But the OP suggestion was about boosting class DC to Expert at level 1, going to legendary, folding item bonuses into that DC, AND making blasts work as saving throw abilities that went off class DC as well, all using constitution as a Key Attribute. I am not even going to bother running the math, because I can tell that an additional +3 accuracy at level 1 scaling to a +7 accuracy at level 20, on top of damage on a miss is going to break what the developers intend to do with the class.
However, the thing that makes this suggestion bad to me isn’t the DPR implications. Those can and would be adjusted down to fit the games math. It is that any at will ability that predictable on providing damage on every attack really has no room to do anything else. You might as well just give the kineticist different flavors of magic missile and your end result would be about the same.
I think part of what is making these discussions around Kineticist accuracy confusing is that impulses covers both blasts, which use unarmed attack proficiency and area of effect abilities that require a defender to make a saving throw. Clearly both are getting talked about in this thread and that leads to a lot of talking past each other.
But the OP suggestion was about boosting class DC to Expert at level 1, going to legendary, folding item bonuses into that DC, AND making blasts work as saving throw abilities that went off class DC as well, all using constitution as a Key Attribute. I am not even going to bother running the math, because I can tell that an additional +3 accuracy at level 1 scaling to a +7 accuracy at level 20, on top of damage on a miss is going to break what the developers intend to do with the class.
However, the thing that makes this suggestion bad to me isn’t the DPR implications. Those can and would be adjusted down to fit the games math. It is that any at will ability that predictable on providing damage on every attack really has no room to do anything else. You might as well just give the kineticist different flavors of magic missile and your end result would be about the same.
Not quite, he doesn’t suggest making them saving throw abilities. He said basing blasts off class DC, but that’s not quite the same thing. The gap is that there’s no spell attack modifier on nonspellcasters, except on Thaums which solve the issue by basing spell attack rolls on their class DC. He also did not suggest adding runes to DCs, just blast accuracy. I can certainly see how that can be confused, so I’m pointing that out merely to get us all on the same page, not to say you’re wrong.
Because you’re not. While I understand his intention, I don’t agree with him, as getting fighter accuracy on even a single 1 handed weapon as well as full DC on their impulse abilities is clearly overpowered. I would even say the same of my more modest version that doesn’t give expert at 1st but does end in legendary proficiency, as full martial accuracy with full caster DC also is OP (and I have run the numbers to check that’s where it stays as they level). I don’t know what exactly the correct solution will ultimately be, but there’s clearly a lot of interest in Single targeting, so I do hope there is some cards up the designers sleeve that will address it.
Adding “class proficiency” as something that is going to be different tan a weapon proficiency, and be something different than class DC (because runes will apply to it) feels like a lot of needless complexity and is probably the same reason we don’t have item bonuses to spell attack rolls, so that spell DC and spell attack are just a “add 10” situation.
I think moving blasts to something more spell like would be more like to see items removed from the equation entirely so all the damage would be tied up in the spell-like feature. I think this is unlikely to accomplish what Verzen is hoping for and make blasts less dynamically interesting because everything would need to be tied up in blast ability itself instead of working with all the features in the game that modify and individualize weapons.
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Adding “class proficiency” as something that is going to be different tan a weapon proficiency, and be something different than class DC (because runes will apply to it) feels like a lot of needless complexity and is probably the same reason we don’t have item bonuses to spell attack rolls, so that spell DC and spell attack are just a “add 10” situation.
I think moving blasts to something more spell like would be more like to see items removed from the equation entirely so all the damage would be tied up in the spell-like feature. I think this is unlikely to accomplish what Verzen is hoping for and make blasts less dynamically interesting because everything would need to be tied up in blast ability itself instead of working with all the features in the game that modify and individualize weapons.
Not sure why you’d assume runes will apply general to all spell attacks. It makes it a little difficult to discuss this when you keep jumping to conclusions.
He and I have both specified that they would apply only to blasts, which indeed is something you can specify as part of that blast ability, much as the ability currently says it uses unarmed proficiency, penalties, and bonuses. Wouldn’t be a difficult or overly complex revision of that one line.
Not that it needs to happen, as I already agreed with you that it was OP and so unlikely to happen.
Siloing everything on Con and a single proficiency that scales at an accelerated rate would be a massive accuracy boost.
Anywhere from +2 to +4 depending on the specific breakpoint, in a game where Inspire Courage's +1 is one of the best abilities in the game.
It would make 'better accuracy' the singular defining feature of the class and prevent by necessity a lot of the other improvements and QoL that people are asking for.
I think it's more doable, if Paizo wanted, than some other posters here are suggesting, but... idk if extremely reliable with mediocre outputs sounds all that fun as the kineticist's class fantasy. I'd rather see mechanics become higher impact, easier to use, or some mixture of both.
Adding “class proficiency” as something that is going to be different tan a weapon proficiency, and be something different than class DC (because runes will apply to it) feels like a lot of needless complexity and is probably the same reason we don’t have item bonuses to spell attack rolls, so that spell DC and spell attack are just a “add 10” situation.
I think moving blasts to something more spell like would be more like to see items removed from the equation entirely so all the damage would be tied up in the spell-like feature. I think this is unlikely to accomplish what Verzen is hoping for and make blasts less dynamically interesting because everything would need to be tied up in blast ability itself instead of working with all the features in the game that modify and individualize weapons.
Not sure why you’d assume runes will apply general to all spell attacks. It makes it a little difficult to discuss this when you keep jumping to conclusions.
He and I have both specified that they would apply only to blasts, which indeed is something you can specify as part of that blast ability, much as the ability currently says it uses unarmed proficiency, penalties, and bonuses. Wouldn’t be a difficult or overly complex revision of that one line.
Not that it needs to happen, as I already agreed with you that it was OP and so unlikely to happen.
I am saying the reason why the game does not currently give item bonuses to spell attack rolls is largely the same reason it won’t give them to a blast ability that would essential become a one action spell attack cantrip in the OP proposal.
I agree with Squiggit that it could be done, but the end result of that much accuracy boosting is going to result in blasts that are otherwise very underwhelming, and not a very interesting direction for the kineticist to sink its resources into.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There I have to disagree.
I would gladly take a less interesting blast if it meant an accuracy or damage boost. It already essentially is an Advanced weapon that hits as accurately as an off key martial, and so balanced accordingly. Dropping a trait or three in exchange for more power in the dice or roll seems like a fair trade to me, and would synergize well with the class’s other abilities. Given the surfeit of AOE impulses, letting blasts be your single target ability and your other impulses cover multi-target (with of course the current feats that let you turn your blast into a multi-target), with the ability to specialize in either direction, seems like a more interesting design direction for my taste.
Siloing everything on Con and a single proficiency that scales at an accelerated rate would be a massive accuracy boost.
Oh, certainly. Like I said, fighter accuracy plus full caster DC, even as hemmed in as the designers could make it, is not in the cards.
I don't see why they can't have Master to attack and Legendary to DC, since that seems the 'easiest' proficiency bump you could give the class to make it mathematically compete with other martials on accuracy. Give it upside down Fighter scaling, starts Expert in DC/Trained in rolls, ends Legendary in DC/Master in rolls; seems to be a decent way of potentially going about it, because then you can just control how strong the DC based mechanics are, independent from the roll based mechanics. I, personally, don't really want/care for Legendary in attack rolls, because that just seems overkill. But Legendary in DC? Heck yeah, seems to fit the bill of how the class should work just fine imo
I don't see why they can't have Master to attack and Legendary to DC, since that seems the 'easiest' proficiency bump you could give the class to make it mathematically compete with other martials on accuracy. Give it upside down Fighter scaling, starts Expert in DC/Trained in rolls, ends Legendary in DC/Master in rolls; seems to be a decent way of potentially going about it, because then you can just control how strong the DC based mechanics are, independent from the roll based mechanics. I, personally, don't really want/care for Legendary in attack rolls, because that just seems overkill. But Legendary in DC? Heck yeah, seems to fit the bill of how the class should work just fine imo
Honestly the main problem people had with the original suggestion of this thread was starting them in Expert and also making the blasts based of Class DC progression, as that is basically just giving fighter accuracy and full mage casting on DCs and better in fact because no mages start expert casting.
I could get behind Kineticists eventually hitting Legendary Class DC. Starting Expert in it? That's probably a no from me.
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scaling into legendary is definitely doable, but it's worth emphasizing that won't change much, since kineticists are only behind spellcasters for 6 of 20 levels anyways.
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I don't see why they can't have Master to attack and Legendary to DC, since that seems the 'easiest' proficiency bump you could give the class to make it mathematically compete with other martials on accuracy. Give it upside down Fighter scaling, starts Expert in DC/Trained in rolls, ends Legendary in DC/Master in rolls; seems to be a decent way of potentially going about it, because then you can just control how strong the DC based mechanics are, independent from the roll based mechanics. I, personally, don't really want/care for Legendary in attack rolls, because that just seems overkill. But Legendary in DC? Heck yeah, seems to fit the bill of how the class should work just fine imoHonestly the main problem people had with the original suggestion of this thread was starting them in Expert and also making the blasts based of Class DC progression, as that is basically just giving fighter accuracy and full mage casting on DCs and better in fact because no mages start expert casting.
I could get behind Kineticists eventually hitting Legendary Class DC. Starting Expert in it? That's probably a no from me.
Spell DCs and Class DCs are different, which calls for separate scaling. It's why most Class DCs never surpass Master at 17th. Comparatively speaking, a Kineticist can't use their Class DC for anything besides Critical Specializations (which are weaker for their Kineticist abilities compared to almost every other weapon-based Critical Specialization, and as far as I know, don't actually have any effects tied to a Class DC save), Ancestry-based effects (which are pretty niche and not overpowered when given an extra +2, even with several "corner cases" presented), and their Feats/Class Abilities, which is what I'm expecting it to impact the most. No Spellcasting or other MCD is affected by this increase to Class DC, meaning the idea that they're more powerful than both Fighters and Spellcasters is a flawed premise.
As for it being a problem, they made it work with the Gunslingers when many people already just wanted them to simply be Master and just have better Gunslinger things. And being the best at Class DCs, when they are the class most heavily influenced by Class DCs besides maybe Monks, doesn't make them better than Fighters with weapons, which is Fighter's niche.
No Spellcasting or other MCD is affected by this increase to Class DC
...unless they're a Kenku with a fan.
No Spellcasting or other MCD is affected by this increase to Class DC...unless they're a Kenku with a fan.
I've already addressed these shenanigans, and nobody has responded to it. If you really don't want to read all of it, the first paragraph is enough to address your concern presented here.
I've already addressed these shenanigans, and nobody has responded to it. If you really don't want to read all of it, the first paragraph is enough to address your concern presented here.No Spellcasting or other MCD is affected by this increase to Class DC...unless they're a Kenku with a fan.
I wasn't meaning to say that it undermined your overall position or anything. It was mostly just a nitpick.